by Eric Vögelin for the Saker blog
The President of Serbia and Avdullah Hoti, the Prime Minister (perhaps it would be more correct to say “self-styled Prime Minister”) of NATO’s 1999 war booty, the occupied Serbian province of Kosovo were hosted for a conference at the White House on 3 and 4 September. The ostensible purpose of the meeting was to iron out their economic relations, as if anything were there to iron out given the devastated condition of both their economies. Putting aside the sensible question of why anybody at the White House would even care about this very local issue enough to devote the good part of two days to it, and bearing in mind that nothing in the Balkans is as it appears at first glance, the real agenda was, of course, quite a bit different. It had to do with putting finishing touches on legitimizing Kosovo as a separate state with international attributes, and economic concerns only served to camouflage that intention.
When the dust settled, the Serbian President had signed what must appear as one of the weirdest documents in the history of international relations. Before making any further editorial comments, here it is:
What is so bizarre about it? It is a scrap of paper adorned with the signature of a head of state, but without any heading or logo, or place where it was signed. To add insult to injury, the signatory is identified merely as “President.” President of what, the local Rotary Club or Hunters’ Association? Would a statesman who cares about the dignity of his office or the prestige of his country sign something like this? And what is this, anyway? Is it a diplomatic document or the signatory’s private notes, written out to himself? Interesting questions, worth pondering.
For a contrast, here is President Donald Trump’s letter to his Kosovo Albanian guest, Avdullah Hoti, commemorating the occasion:
That looks a lot better and more dignified, doesn’t it?
For an economic agreement between two Balkan entities that few in the West have heard of, care about, or could locate on the map, reached with the involvement of President Trump and members of his staff, the strangely laid out document, it must be said, contains some even stranger provisions.
It says, among other things, that the parties will “diversify their energy supplies.” What does this Aesopian language mean? Are the parties unhappy with their current sources of energy and in need of assistance to secure new ones? Hardly. In light of (a) America’s bitter opposition to North Stream 2, and (b) Secretary of State Pompeo’s recent attempts to “diversify” Belarus’ energy supplies by pushing on it US products that would have to be brought from 10,000 miles away in order to block nearby Russian energy supplies, this phrase can mean only one thing. It is an order to Serbia to abandon any thought of relying on convenient and reasonably priced Russian energy supplies. It also puts an end to Serbia’s role in the Russian European energy distribution scheme, and potentially deprives it of its lucrative position as the South Stream distribution hub. What a great deal for Serbia!
Serbia further accepts to “prohibit the use of 5G equipment supplied by untrusted vendors.” Public health advocates would at this point say “Great, the trip to Washington was not in vain after all, because the scourge of 5G will no longer endanger the health of Serbia’s population, already being decimated by dire cancer generating radioactive consequences of the 1999 NATO bombing.” But the removal of this indisputably noxious Chinese equipment (and that is the whole point of this provision) will not end the scourge but will merely lead to “other mediation efforts in a timely fashion,” e.g. to the substitution of US manufactured deadly 5G networks for those of Huawei.
So the “economic normalization agreement with Kosovo” signed by the president of Serbia’s Hunter’s Association is actually a huge slap to both Russia and China, Serbia’s important geopolitical partners, and incidentally a shot in Serbia’s own foot as well.
Next, there is a provision which Ambassador Richard Grenell, who mediated the talks, might have inserted himself: “Both parties will work with the 69 countries that criminalize homosexuality to push for decriminalization.” What has that got to do with economic relations? And why stop there and not also mandate transgender toilets in Serbian grammar schools?
Serbia is also mandated to transfer its embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. In parallel fashion, “Kosovo” and Israel will establish diplomatic relations, i.e. Israel recognizes Kosovo. Another great deal for Serbia. By moving its embassy to Jerusalem, Serbia will reward Israel for recognizing the illegal separation of 15% of its territory containing some of its most significant cultural and spiritual sites. That would be analogous to Israel ceding Temple Mount and the Wailing wall to the Arabs and opening embassies in their capitals. And, slap number three, this time to the Arab and Muslim world, for reasons that are impossible to rationally fathom, Serbia obliges itself to “implement measures to restrict Hizballah´s operations and financial activities” on its territory. Whatever position one chooses to take toward “Hizballah” there is nothing for Serbia to restrict because that organization does not conduct any activities on Serbian territory, unless the reference is to “Kosovo” which happens to be a Hizballah stronghold. So why aren´t things called by their real name, and why does a person purporting to represent Serbia consent to being strong-armed into signing such a ludicrous provision, needlessly putting his country in a bad light and courting the contempt of hundreds of millions of Muslims throughout the world?
The next to last point of the Agreement is highly indicative of the political context of the entire affair. It says that in return for “Kosovo” not seeking membership in international organizations for a year, Serbia will “agree to a one-year moratorium on its de-recognition campaign, and will refrain from formally or informally requesting any nation or International Organization not to recognize Kosovo as an independent state.” The formulation is ambiguous but it is framed to support the interpretation that Serbia will refrain from obstructing the recognition of “Kosovo as an independent state” without any time limitations. The sentence is cleverly written by Anglo-Saxon lawyers, including tricky punctuation, to obfuscate that point, but the comma after the word “year” gives the game away. The clause that follows is grammatically separate from the language that precedes it. If President Trump was in a hurry and retyping the whole thing was not an option, any prudent signatory on Serbia’s behalf would have quickly inserted in his own hand after the word refrain the phrase “for the duration of one year,” thus clearly matching the period of “Kosovo’s” commitment to refrain. But as the matter stands, “Kosovo’s” duty to refrain will expire in one year, while Serbia’s obligation to do the same will continue indefinitely after that. Pacta sunt servanda.
Did Serbia’s representative at this meeting have a legal team to assist him? Probably not, because he presumes to be a lawyer himself.
What is the political implication of this provision? It is that the US and EU sponsored process of “Kosovo” legitimation as an “independent state” shall continue unabated, culminating in UN membership, with Serbia renouncing in advance the right to oppose it in any effective way. It is a demonically clever scheme. In the end, Serbia’s de iure recognition of “Kosovo” will become irrelevant because there will no longer be a need to seek its consent or opinion on the subject.
The thought that President Trump arranged this meeting because he needed a foreign policy win before the elections is grossly exaggerated. In his press briefing on 4 September, the same day these discussions were concluded, he did not even mention them or intimate that some spectacular accords which might influence his electoral chances were signed in the Oval Office. That is a clue to the significance he attributes to the visit of his Balkan guests.
For the outlaw “government of Kosovo,” however, this is an important phase in the relentless process of legitimation that is being conducted under the auspices of its US deep state sponsors, whether Trump personally is aware of what is going on or not. For Serbia, the trans-Atlantic trip definitely was not worth it. It was another broad strategic retreat and humiliation. It demonstrates the readiness of Serbia’s leadership to needlessly abase themselves and trade the country’s crown jewels for another lease on their political life, betting on the foreign support they now think they have secured by brown-nosing the global powers-that-be. They better think again, however, and analyse realistically the trajectory of their Montenegrin colleagues.
- I thank a reader of my previous article for correctly spelling my surname, with the umlaut. I had used the English transliteration in order not to confuse some readers. ↑
It is an unconditional surrender from Serbia. Why? What did the Serbs get from it?
It is not clear to me the reason/s that compelled Serbia to ABANDON the convenient energy supply
they could get from Russia. Indeed a set back for Putin.
Good question. Why? It is simply irrational.
Serbia unconditionally surrendered the moment they sold their last legitimate leader, Slobodan Miloseviç, to the EUNATO invaders. It’s now a defeated country that is obeying the orders of the conquerors. Nothing new about its surrender.
It’s not true. It is disrespectful that Djindjic delivered him to The Hague with the English servica members on the day of St. Vid. However, Milosevic has been an American scholarship holder for 5 years and a “socialist” banker inserted to dismantle the Serbian national idea from within. Yugoslav, not Serb. Just like the rest of the gang of DB state service members internationals of Yugoslavia. He worked with the Americans as a factor of stability throughout the war in the Balkans, and when the job was done, the bosses sold it. There are several similar examples from so called successful socialist countries. More precisely, they saved him, otherwise the people would hang him. A traitor who worked for the benefit of all, but Serbs. So before you start commenting, try to go deeper into the history of a nation and check it out. Furthermore, Serbia lost its sovereignty by joining Yugoslavia as a kingdom. All over Europe, kingdoms were falling, exept in the Serbs who are building Masonic one on their already existing state and victims, which is joined by Croats and Slovenes who lost two wars on the side of the Germans. After that comes the betrayal of Draza Mihajlovic and the support of Tito by Stalin and Cercil. When Tito came to power, he killed 60,000 professors, doctors the intellectual elite of the Serbs in order to replace it with the proletariat.
You do not extradite your own president, period, not one country in world’s history has done that only Serbia. Milosevic, he was considered a peacemaker according to western politicians who negotiated with him, he was also considered a fighter who refused to sell out Kosmet.
If you are willing to extradite a president, a fighter for your country, do not expect that any future president will be willing to fight for your country.
I have heard so far a lot of proletarian and liberalcitizen slogans. If the truth were still behind or something worthwhile, it would be worth commenting on. Prepare yourself, geniuses, for the civil war in Serbia, however the Yugoslavs came in, they will leave the same way. It is likely that the Yugoslavs (those blacks of the never anointed king Kardjordjevic and those reds of Comrade Tito) will be helped by their neighbors from the NATO banquet. So again sebar popultaion and their Stockholm comrades who sold themselves for a good dinner to International bosses, against the few remaining Serbs. Meanwhile, the Russians will send statements of concern.
Milosevic’s extradition by OTPOR Colour Revolutionaries and his murder in the Hague have given him a post-humous patina of a tragic, patriotic hero …in Serbia however his image is far more nuanced. His role in the events during the 90s is far more ambiguous and his actions were in many cases directly opposed to Serbian interests.
E moj djole, I didnt knew that we Slovenes sided with Germany(katholic slovenes did side with fashists)…liberation front OF was founden one week after Serbian, secound in Yug.
The fact is fachist wanted to exterminate us and to steal our sacred land..my grandgrand parents died in Gonars,Aushvic for being Slavic commies.
By the way Draza was a big friend of Slovenija, had many friends here..last Vojvoda from Ravna Gora was Uros Susteric who died last year..
Thats why croats call us Alpski cetnici..
A ko je zarobio ustase kod Blajburga-Pliberka?
Today, Sreder is on the side of the Russians, and twenty years ago he was the prime minister who bombed Serbia. How many such examples across the EU zone. You gave the papers to the Serbs who lived in Slovenia before the war twenty years after what the Baltics did to the Russians. Let’s not lie. You Slovenes don’t have much to do with Serbs but with Moravians, ie Ugrians and Slovaks. It’s your people, mentality, not to mention genetic R1a resemblance. Alpine Serbs live in Bela Krajina in Slovenia. They settled there to defend Vienna from the Turks. So from Rovinj on the Adriatic coast through Bela Krajina and Zumberak to the rivers Odra, Lonja and Cesma in Croatia. No offense. Never again.
Whatever Milosevic’s sins might have been he exonerated himself with his fearless defense in the Hague. For which he got poisoned by our Western “partners”.
Milosevic sold the Serbs and made billions through the Zagreb Bank by sharing money with his former Socialist colleague and Yugoslav Army General Franjo Tudjman.President of Croatia. Milosevic destroyed Krajina and reduced the Serb part in Bosnia from 72% to 49%. So Bosniaks can make a monument to him in Sarajevo as well as Croats in Zagreb. What was not taken by the heads of the Yugoslav security service who earn from the war in transition, was given to his wife, Mira Markovic who was than accepted and lived in Moscow. As well as his brother. She couldn’t go to London, where otherwise all the traitors would run away.
My post to djole was moderared, despite his ugly lie..Well done lads, lie is immortal soul of commies…wait who said that?
Ajde djole read some books, we won WW2 with legendary Red army, where were you Serbs…raped by the same Russians in Belgrade.
The truth is Slovene XIV.divison revenged your graves in Jasenovac.
Where the word Selo ends and word Ves or Vesnica begins, begins Slovenia. Begins Moravska. Slovenia is where the Stokavian dialect ends and the Kajkavian dialect begins. Nowadays Zagorje in Croatia. No offense. Slovenia has been under Bavaria since the fall of Carantania. The so-called Croatian chessboard is also the coat of arms of a Bavarian medieval family that once holds Carinthia. Feel free to check. Later on, that coat of arms represents the northern Croatian region of three counties. All the rest coat of arms are put aside and you can find them above this one. Why, what do you think? Coat arms of Istria, Dalmatia, Slavonia, Dubrovnik and Ilirian coat of arms of Jelacic minor city Zagreb (Jelacic statue in center of Zagreb today). Jelacic become catholic to succed in habzburg army. Ther was no chance to get a higher rank otherwise. His brother was orthodox and serv in russian tzar army. So, after the extinction of the male descendants of the Bavarian family, both the Czech and Ugarian(Uchors) kings fought for this coat of arms. There are no Habsburgs yet. Premisl Otokar 2 puts it on the chest of a white Moravian eagle to confirm the inheritance. The Hungarians killed him on the Moravian plain and took over the coat of arms and the land of Zagorje around Varazdin. After the passage of Jakub Pasa, the Uchor-vats almost disappeared and the Habsburgs settled Slovenes from Carinthia in the area of Zagorje to defend Vienna from the Turks. At the same time, they inhabited the Bavarians in Carinthia. Greetings
Thank you Djole, yes lovely input indeed.
Imo culture and language defines a nation not only borders. Solzenicin stated that 25 mio Russians stayed outside Russia..Kavkaz, Baltic, Ukraine, …stans and others. Serbs left many of Balkans to Albania, Croatia, CG, Macedonia..
But we lost even more % to Croats Medimurje,Zagorje,part of Istria, Trst, Gorica and Celovec, whole of Carnten..Koroska – Slovenian Kosovo
The history made degenerate monarchys to fall infront of proletariat. The history is not over and is brutaly sharpenig its teeth. Vojvoda Susteric wanted only 10 km border Slovenija-Srbija ;) maybe in next life eh?
The serbs get nothing.
There are two types of leaders. Thee are the leaders who believe in the sovereign rights of their country and people, and see themselves as their chosen leader and representatives.
Then there are those that do not believe in nation states or sovereignty. As a national leader, they are merely the “middle manager” of one franchise to the real rulers, the transnational network of capital and finance.
The former are the ones attacked, defamed, assassination, overthrown, their people and countries suffering. The others, like the EU and now Serbiae just submit because they have nothing to believe in otherwise.
Russia is arming Turkey transforming it into a superstrong regional power…Serbian future will be in a new Ottoman empire… These days are the golden age of Serbia…
Hahahahaha….a very amuzing comment…we will see in the near future what Turkey will be, I can certainly say that Serbia’s future won’t be in a new Ottoman empire.
Hahahahaha….a very amuzing reply… Where will you hide yourselves?
Its unescapable…its clearly seen that its going to break out a serious and cruel war between Greece (France, Israel) and Turkey (Azerbaijan)… 100% Greece will be defeated and included into the Empire and Serbia will be the next… Your Europe is Turkey
EU isnt for you…Russia? GHreedy Russia is transforming Turkey into a military power…
There is Central European integration project (Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine etc) but it is only in the very early stages of pregnancy in addition Serbia is too Turkish and proRussian for it, so to be a part of Turkey Empire is a natural development for Serbia and there naturally is no other choice for the country
All of our “leaders” and “representatives” are compradors who are bought and paid for by the US, and they do not represent us.
Maybe we know now about the demonstrations in Belgrade a while back. I could see Pompeo leaning over to Vucic and saying,”its a shame you had those demonstrations.I bet you wouldn’t want a lot bigger ones to come back,would you”.And then Vucic comes to Washington.
The demonstrations in Serbia were anti-NATO, patriotic and correlated with the Serb revival in Montenegro, it had nothing to do with Soros-style color revolutions. Vucic’ personality trait is of a coward, he signs everything in Brussels or Washington because he is subservient except at home, he is no statesman, i notice NATO prefers young “statesmen”, because they are easily controlled, just have a look at the Belorussian opposition or the Venezuelan Guaido. They do not make statesman as they used to, it is a dying breed, except in Russia.
Did Russia and China just give up Eurasian Integration and BRI? A total retreat? Turned out Trump is a much better chess player the Xi and Putin. With Russia has no solution for Syria China has no solution for Lebanon and Libya, BRI and Eurasian Integration would unlikely to succeed. In addition Nord Stream 2 seems to be death too! And don’t forget Belarus soon to be Russia’s soft shoulder.
Did Russia and China just give up Eurasian Integration and BRI? A total retreat?..
On 20 August, a freight train left Vienna:
“The train departed this morning at 11am from Vienna South station. It is expected to cover 10,460 kilometers in 16 days, offering a faster alternative between Austria and China. “With this new transport route we can more quickly meet the high demand from our customers for sustainably produced fibers. Thanks to rail transport, the urgently needed fibers reach our customers in China twice as quickly as by sea”, says Stefan Doboczky, CEO of the Lenzing Group.”
I don’t know about you but Austria is “European” enough for me. For your benefit let me spell out the countries the train traversed from Vienna to Shanghai: Austria, Czech Republic, Poland, Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan, China. That’s seven Eurasian countries.
The BRI is going to succeed because the vast majority of humanity are fed-up with, and sick and tired of wars waged by the utterly morally bankrupt AZ Empire and want nothing more than to lead peaceful, productive lives. They have had it up to here. BRI is the ‘enabler’ to that end. The ‘old’ Silk Road survived for centuries despite regional social upheavals and wars.
RF and China don’t have to solve anything in the ME. That is up to the countries themselves. But having said that, RF has stopped the AZE in its tracks in Syria, killings have decreased greatly since the RF’s involvement, and the terrorists are now resorting to fratricide to satisfy their blood-lust. Huge success from RF and Syrian point of view.
Forgot the links.
Wish? Nope, just observation. The world needs peace in order to trade. The West, mainly the US needs wars and destructions in order to thrive. You will see more destructions and wars; hot or cold. China and Russia need stability in Syria, Lebanon, Venezuela, and Libya etc in order to trade. The hegemon would not allow that condition. The stalemate in Syria right now is rather an US objective.
Well, there is a good news in all this. The hegemon is falling apart from within.
No. They have not given up on it and there is absolutely no reason to believe that they will ever give up on it.
I remember the Modi regime’s pet media repeatedly claiming in the 2016-19 period that “China’s BRI is failing” and “China is quietly giving up on BRI” (no mention that Russia and most of Europe are a part of it, to the Modi regime’s pet media it is all about “surrounding India, The Centre Of The Universe). It didn’t fall or get given up on then and it is not now.
china has been very open to “modify” the BRI. add and remove sections such as india when politics change. maybe next pm wont be a styled isolationist or dreamer of old empires. you cant plan future national development without energy security and trade security. china has achieved both. zog relies on mafia tactics.
As a Serb, I can say what we witnessed in Washington caused an overwhelming sense of shame and disgust. First and foremost, the behavior of our President, who shamelessly sat there and enjoyed the humiliation being infliction upon him, in the capacity of President of Serbia, before the whole world. He seemed to have enjoyed it, on top of everything, nor did he hesitate to unleash a wave of the most primitive imaginable propaganda at home to represent our shameful humiliation as a victory. The saddest part if that a good chunk of the population, numb from years of systematic propaganda and without access to alternative sources of information, will believe him.
Also worth pointing out that by agreeing to move its embassy to Jerusalem. Serbia broke international law, specifically UN Resolution 478 from 1980, which calls on all UN member states to move their embassies from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. A brazen violation of international law, which, undermines Serbia’s own position regarding Kosovo, whose independence was declared unilaterally and illegally.
We will thus become the third (or fourth) country after USA and Guatemala, to move its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
In his well-known hysterical tone, Vucic and his cronies have today issued a torrent of insults to Maria Zakharova and Russia, for being exposed for the traitors and losers they are.
It is beyond me that people of Serbia tolerate this abomination who is destroying and humiliating Serbia on daily basis. What is wrong with you people?
Nothing wrong with us. We are watching the same movie but with different captions. It’s all just a matter of spin.
For some, that picture from oval office represents a humiliation for Serbia. For others, the need to humiliate smaller countries only shows the Empire’s own insecurity.
“A picture is worth a thousand words”: just look at the veritable photo masterpiece at the head of this article!
A recalcitrant schoolboy Called on the Carpet by the mean school principal, solemnly promising he Won’t do it Again, while the schoolteachers & parents are looking on :-)
Serbia, Serbia, how low have You sunk … way down to the “Oval Office”…
True – exactly my first thought when I saw this picture …..
One picture will tell you more than a thousand words……
My thought exactly – a little schoolboy, being chewed out by his elder. The body posture says it all. The west likes to humiliate Serbia – and then they attacks Serbs for undue nationalism. I think this is a story going way back…
Thank you. If it’s any consolation, this was only to be expected. From my article “Two clicks to midnight”:
Another consequence will be accelerated squeezing and neutralisation of the semi-impotent Serbia and the final Gleichschaltung of the Eastern wing of NATO in preparation for a more muscular phase of the war. This will involve transferring more troops and missiles to the East (but always under the retaliation threshold), closing down of Russia’s embassies and consulates in Europe while pretending to oppose the United States, closing down financing channels and media outlets, making life miserable for Russian citizens and businessmen abroad plus hundreds more nasty tricks.
Regarding your comment about a more “muscular phase of the war”, this agreement is definitely a strategic boost for Camp Bondsteel:
The top item is the opening up Serbian highways & rail links to Kosovo. This will improve and secure terrestrial supply lines for one of the largest US bases in Europe (the maritime one is via Albania).
Dear Serbian girl,
You make an excellent point. I remember the old “professionals talk logistics”. Very professional!
Yes, it seems as this is the case, that regardless of whoever gets elected in Washington in 2020 the effort to destroy Russia via pressure from within and from without will continue. The Vatican-connect Elites have too much riding on this outcome to stop now.
Well actually Pope Benedictus was trying to open discussions and find a common stand with Russia (and with president Putin). He was forced to retire.
The Belgian controlled SWIFT blocked all international bank transfer to and from the Vatican.
This is something similar to what they did with countries defined as Terrorist by USA.
Bank transfer was reestablished only after Pope Benedictus announced his retirement.
After that they were able to elect a fake Christian, antiitalian, pro illegal immigration and pro exploitation of both italians and migrants, pro LGBT pro Islam and anti Christian argentinian bishop as bishop of rome.
I agree with some authors (like the Saker), that the catholic church is not anymore catholic and ow it is for sure neither Christian neither Roman.
By the way, in 2014 they tried to put pressure on Russia with the menace of removing them from Swift bank transfer system, and that pushed Russia to develop their own alternatives.
Finally Russia already lost too much trying to help Serbia in 1914. If they do not want to save themselves Russia should not interfere. If they heal from their madness before their population and their country are destroyed, maybe they can get some support, but it is quite certain that Russia will not get involved in another war for other people’s problems.
Probably the situation could have been deescalated between Austria and Serbia after the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand… maybe that would not have prevented a major war in Europe, but at least it could have prevented the early entry in war of Russia (and the subsequent revolution)…
Zdravstujste gospodin Romanovic (are you sure that’s your name?)
How is it possible for anybody to come up with such tripe is beyond me. So, your Vatican of bloody Crusades, inquisitions, imperial conquest and destruction of entire cultures and ethnic groups (the ongoing attempt in the Ukraine is sufficient) is supposed to be the best friends with an Orthodox giant who has been its main enemy for over a thousand years? Why do people do this? Russia should have left Serbia to your Catholic vultures as if they hadn’t feasted enough on the bodies of innocent men, women and children in Machva and Podrinje–a crime the criminal Austro-Hungarian Catholic cabal hasn’t paid for yet (not to mention the Uniate scum, the martyrdom of the Ruthenians in 1914-1918 and countless other crimes. Almost a half of the male population was lost by Serbia in 1914. Don’t worry, it hasn’t been forgotten and it will surface soon.
Well said Mr. Leslie.
Benedict XVI is still the Pope of the Roman Schism and the Vatican was under no real trouble from the Elites who are dependent on the Vatican and it’s limitless wealth and great covert power. Francis is a front man, as a Jesuit he has no problem being ordered to play his part for the Germanic Pope.
In a real sense, the war that began in 1914-1918 never ended, not in 1939-1945 even and not even now in 2020 AD in this more covert period.
Zdravstvuyte gospodin Leslie
It is just my pseudonym, taken from the protagonist of crime and punishment, Rodion Romanovic Raskolnikov (By the way, Romanovic was his patronimic, not his surname, so the appellation would be Rodion Romanovic (name + patronimic), never with mister (gospodin) and then the patronimic (but I know the case of some old people in Georgia being called with just their patronimic (new generation do not even use them there)).
Anyway, I am Italian (I would prefer to define myself as a Roman citizen left without a country), and I am quite familiar with the issues of the catholic church. I know there have been many things of which we cannot be proud, and I have read also several books offering a eastern point of view on the matter (including some discussing the origin Russophobia and link to the distrust of the Eastern Roman Empire)
It can be a huge discussion and anyway the schism was a mutual responsibility of both the bishop of Rome and the bishop of Costantinople, it was not one way only… and after the death of Emperor Giustinianus (for me the last real Roman emperor, even if I appreciate the last dynasty (Paleologi)) in the 6th century the relations between Rome and Constantinople started to crumble. Even after the longobard invasion, Rome, Ravenna, and about half of Italy remained in (eastern) Roman hands, but probably there were already large issues.
The actual split started around the end of the 8th century, when Irene of Athens, the wife of the emperor managed to get power for herself after the death (accidental or not) of her husband and she imprisoned and blinded her son.
This was a shock for the remaining elites in Rome, and they probably tried to ally with the franks to detach themselves from that.
Furthermore the situation in Constantinople was at least as corrupt, if not more, as in Rome and the eastern Roman emperors were starting living almost as persian kings, and not as Roman generals.
Here there could be another huge discussion on the difference between the original concept of the roman emperor (especially at the beginning of the empire, with a strong senate) and the various absolute kings and popes and emperors in medioeval times.
So, as an Italian I should be also annoyed about all of this, since my country has always been divided since the 6th century and was never able to be united and independent, because of the power plays between east and west (and because we sold ourselves to other powers, like the French in many occasions, instead of solving the issues internally).
By the way, several atrocities were also done by our former brothers. In April 1182, twenty-two years before the fourth crusade and the sack of Constantinople, there was the so called “massacre of the Latins” in Constantinople (Massacro dei Latini; Σφαγὴ τῶν Λατίνων). It was a large-scale massacre (about 60000 people) of the Roman Catholic (largely italians) (called “Latin”) inhabitants of Constantinople by the Eastern Orthodox population. Last but not least 4,000 survivors were sold as slaves to the (Turkish) Sultanate of Rum.
And we get to the present and we see that the orthodox world is as divided as ever, with new autonomous churches popping out like mushrooms, and with Bartholomew that wants to be a sort of crossover between a eastern pope and a sultan.
In my opinion the only hope is if we manage to get over more than 1000 years of issues and distrust and we stop doing mean things to each others (independently from try to put blame on who started what).
My dream would be to see Italy and Greece get out of EU and NATO and form a sort of confederation, maybe also entering some trade agreements with the Euroasian Union.
As for Serbia, did you know that the territory of your small country gave the birth to several Roman emperors?
Sorry Mr. Vogelin,
Since you mentioned your previous article and the correct spelling of your surname; I don’t have such characters as an option and can’t copy and paste your name, from the article, for some reason.
I was only able to complement your previous analysis. In fact, calling it excellent. Even though it was more than a little condescending and simply gave a nodding acknowledgement to the thousands of incredible people (from Grandparents to Grandchildren) , who marched, almost daily for months. Wonder how many of those kind are found in any corner of Western Europe? Those stupid Serbs, actually celebrating, the first bit of good news in decades, like they’ve won something.
“Someone they trust should try to calm them down and gently remind them of Yogi Berra’s immortal and ever valid dictum: it ain’t over ‘till it’s over.”
Yeah, We of Serbian descent, who’ve had to defend against the greatest empire’s in history, really need Yogi to remind us.
In regards to the belittling sight at the White House…. surprise! Evil rules the world and politicians are whores.
Regarding loyalty or allegiances, please include in one of your next analyses, in detail, how much Russia and China have done to help the ungrateful Serbs, aside from the insistence to abide by the UN resolution 1244. I’ve got 800 years worth of examples of how Serbs have more than reciprocated their loyalty towards their Russian brethren.
As to your millions of Muslim comment….Even though the Arab States AND Iran supplied Bosnian muslim and Albanian extremists with hundreds of millions of dollars to conduct terror campaigns that led to the slaughter of thousands of Serbs, most Serbian commentators, across the Internet, have spoken out against the destruction and injustice, going on in the M.E. In favor of the governments and leaders of Syria, Iran, Libya and Yemen.
RE: Vucic eating sh-t at the offal office.
Wait a minute!!! The very last point of the agreement was to move the Serbian embassy to Jerusalem so how could he sign the document and not notice that? What surprised him was that Trump made a big deal over mentioning it…. ( He was pandering to the pro-Zionist US voter). Maybe it was slipped in at the last minute, though. Ha! man been had and had bad. Coming up next is the Gates vaccine, 5G and a lot fewer Serbs on the planet. I suppose they are already eating GMO food by now.
Some interesting (and shameful) video clips:
Corrupt Serbian leadership have fallen in line.
Vucic is not corrupt, but much worse, incompetent.
Stronghold of Hezbollah in Kosovo must be a joke…Serbia,Kosovo have 0% correlation with Hezbollah. Kosovo beeing child of usa&germany is probably infested with zio terror groups alkaida,isis..but maybe im wrong.
So sad to see Serbs being humiliated like that..funky lips for a president should stay at home.
You are right about there being very little correlation with local politics. The move of the embassy to Jerusalem and designating Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation, however, is a move on the global chessboard….
I need to understand the Christian orthodox mentality, why do you spend your energy towards palestinians? For arabs and muslims? The same people who for centuries attacked, slaved and raped you? Come on, it is a huge level of stupidity, Israel is doing a fraction of what the muslim world did to the orthodoxy, well done Serbia, Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel!!!
Let me enlighten you, Leo.
The Serbs were the only nation in Europe not to have been tainted by the hatred of the Jews, especially after the horrors of the Islamist rule. Yet, the betrayal by the European and US Jews during the war in Yugoslavia was so appalling that it was sufficient to destroy very strong shared bonds of the joint suffering in the Holocaust (thanks to the exceptions who were trying to tell the truth). Second, it is Israel and the horrible US Neocons that loooove Islamist scum such as ISIS, Chechen and Albanian cutthroats etc. The Serbs support secular Arab nations that your nation is doing everything to destroy.
Is that clear enough?
Perfectly explained. Yes sir.
Most Serbs stand for what’s right. It’s not the fault of most peace loving and innocent Muslims.
Oh and we know the difference between radical Zionists and many good Jewish people too.
Just one, very vivid example.
I’ve relayed the following story, here, once before. Following a large peaceful protest in D.C, back in the 90’s, we led a large group of Serbs and some Jewish friends to visit the National holocaust museum. The leader of the Jewish-Serbian organization had requested it.(we already knew the horrible lies that the “museum” was propagating). To the shock and horror of the half Jewish half Serbian leader of the society, there were zero exhibits detailing The WWII Vatican/Croatian genocide of over a million Serbs, and tens of thousands of Jews and Gypsies. Not one damn mention in the whole damn museum.
If that wasn’t disgraceful enough, this “Holocaust” museum had the gaul to post little displays and have exhibitions celebrating supposed Croatian and Bosnian Muslim heroes who saved the Jews. Not the reality of hundreds, maybe thousands, of documented cases of Serbs sacrificing their own families in attempts to save their fellow Jewish victims.
And that’s just one, real world exampleWe don’t do xenophobic or racial hate. . Hope you got all that, Leo.
Many blessings to Gideon Greiff and other wonderful Jews. Many blessings to the wonderful and brave sheik Imran Hosein and other wonderful people of the Muslim faith.
Exactly. I could list a dozen (especially older generation) Jews here in London who were appalled at what was happening (and they were influential). However, the time has come for the Serbs and other Slavs to learn from the Jews and start remembering their own holocausts at the hands of the Germans and the Vatican.
The great Baron Avro Manhattan was Jewish.
Orthodox Christians have more in common with the Palestinians than with Israel, only a people which has been a victim of brutal repression and hatred can relate to the tragedy of Palestinians in the recent decades. Yes, Orthodox peoples in the Balkans have been under the rule of an Islamic Empire for roughly five centuries, yet they have managed to preserve both their religion and identity.
After decades of Western domination, however, the identity, dignity, and the very existence of Balkan peoples, are seriously threatened. As the Byzantine official, Loukas Notaras famously said in the XV century, ‘I would rather see a Turkish turban in Constantinople rather than the Latin mitre’.
I agree with your gradation of evils. Thank you.
Also, notice the chair the Kosovo Representative was given to sit in. Reminds of being back in grade school when I was in the principle’s office being disciplined.
What a piece of ***t this guy is,why is he still in power instead of being charged with high treason?no self respecting Serb should even be talking to the Americans.
Direct from the spokeswoman of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russian Federation!
Bravo Maria Zakharova!!!
She too commented on the aforementioned photo of Vucic disgracing himself in the “Oval Office”:
“… If you were summoned to White House, and the chair was placed as if you were under interrogation, sit down as in photo #2. Whoever you are. Just believe it. …”
That photo #2 which she attached is of (crossed legs of) Sharon Stone in a scene from the film “Basic Instinct”.
A clear allusion to the fact that “president” Vucic is shamelessly prostituting himself.
(Needless to mention … the arch-traitor of Serbia and his cabal have reacted furiously to her post, calling her all kinds of names :-))
That’s pretty funny with the Sharon Stone pic!
Although I don’t think Vucic has much show between his legs…
A tall gelding.
I’ve been enjoying for years reading articles here and also your elaborate thoughtful comments. I cannot remember you making more valid point in a shorter analysis!
Well done Sir!
This was a classic Trump bait-and-switch dirty car salesman trick: https://twitter.com/PaoloStefanini5/status/1302233149074792450
Vučić is an imbecile
The bizarre comment about Kosovo being a stronhold of Hezbollah betrays an ignorance or prejudice that does
not square with the otherwise excellent points the author makes
“Serbia is also mandated to transfer its embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. In parallel fashion, “Kosovo” and Israel will establish diplomatic relations, i.e. Israel recognizes Kosovo. ”
Where does it say that?
It’s a link, Pindos. Click on it and it will take to an NYT article where it says exactly that.
Here is Trumps tweet:
Another great day for peace with Middle East – Muslim-majority Kosovo and Israel have agreed to normalize ties and establish diplomatic relations. Well-done! More Islamic and Arab nations will follow soon!
Why is such emphasis on homosexuality in the framework of politics? People should really look closer to that. Sexuality and power, money just dont seem to mix.
Lol, but all miss the point. Why is Trump pushing for gay rights? Ain’t he supposed to be pro-conservative American heartland values?
Tell me again how he is better than Hitlary…
Well then you must obviously have been offline for some time, because it very, very much does these days, besides the more zoootrop orientations as with pizza’s et al (Podesta mails are an interesting reading, but it is forbidden for a US citizen to do so – of course) of the ‘top’ guys (A-rate Parties).
In case Vucic had not got the hint, this is the White House way of telling him to “bend over”.
When the US struck Serbia, 1999, it was the perfect moment in Russian Federation history when Russia could not take action to save Serbia. There was nothing Russia could have done that would have made a difference.
There was the Chechen War, and the Federation was losing it in those days, and the domestic scene was rife with mafia gangs and murderous billionaire oligarchs.
The Russian/USSR military was in terrible shape.
So the US timing was optimal.
I am not making excuses for Russia. I don’t know all the facts. I am open to learn what Serbs think Russia should have done.
But it would be good if you Serbs explain in full what Russia did not do which would have changed the outcome.
And if you didn’t have a traitor as President, today things would be different. How did the nation wind up with such a Quisling?
Just another what if thought: what would happen if this scumbag is terminated? Can the Serbs take back their country, join the RF in EAEU and CSTO and get protection?
As for asking China for help? They would never do anything with their military. So expecting help to fight a war is not in the cards.
As a Serb from Serbian Bosnia, I’ m deeply ashamed with Vucic. Unfortunately, Belgrade was anti Serbian city since Berlin Congress. Cancer started then and it spread until present day. We are our own worst enemies.
Without Russia, simply, we wouldn’t exist. So, thanks to mother Russia for everything, but don’t waste your time on Belgrade.
Republika Srpska should forget Serbia and focus on close ties with Russia and hope Russia can help us to finally gain freedom.
Oh, be careful paisan. As a Serb from what is now Bosnia too, can I ask you not to generalise please! Many Serbs traitors are from what is now Bosnia and Croatia. Vuk Draskovic (from Herzegovina), Peppa Pig of Vojvodina Nenad Canak (mother from Lika, dad Croat) or Ceda Jovanovic the Needle (mother around Banja Luka). Even Vucic’s “father” (some says not his real father though) is from Bugojno.
You are correct. However, Belgrade as our capital shouldn’t always work against itself and all of us to please foreign oppressors. Again, problem is what Serbia, under Obrenovic, promised to the west in exchange for recognition of independence in Berlin Congress? And this burden continues until today.
Marko, but the difference is that all them traitors live in Belgrade and Bosnian Serbs didn’t vote Vucic into office or Cedomir Jovanovic into parliament, it was the people of Belgrade and Serbia.
Actually, 1999 was the lowest point for the Yeltsinite regime, where some low level Brit could threaten Russia with WWIII and get away with it. But whatever Russia did or didn’t do, the ultimate responsibility for the real surrender (selling Miloseviç to NATO, letting Montenegro secede) all came afterwards and were the responsibility of Serbia.
The destruction of Yugoslavia was, indeed, well timed. What was happening to their slavic brothers in the East after break up of USSR was agonising and heartbreaking. Even if they wanted to protect Serbs (and they did!) they could not do much to help.. Many in Russia still feel anguish about what happened to their Serbian brothers, but at the time they were fighting for their own survival. That is exactly why the VERY first objective for VVP was to re-build Russia’s military might. Now, Serbia is at the crossroads and has to choose the next step very carefully. Having satraps vike Vucic for president is not doing themselves any favours. Surely there MUST be enough wonderful people in Serbia that actually love their country and want to protect it. What just happened is another calculated humiliation inflicted by the West on Serbs, as well an attempt to show Russia and China – see what we can still do.. Well, the only answer is for Serbia to start fighting back, first by getting rid of the likes of Vucic and his cohorts. This time their slavic brothers are exremely well armed and if necessary, will be able to help. The choice is for Serbs to make – do you go with the Devil? Or you fight it..
The struggle for freedom is perpetual. Russia owes nothing to anyone. Without Russia no Serbia would have existed. During the 450 years of Ottoman rule, Russia was a beacon of freedom that kept providing: from books to priests to fighters, the then polite man in green.
As a Serb myself, I am sorry to observe that the Serb “elites”, as soon as the Serb people freed themselves with the help from Russia of the Ottoman yoke, somehow managed to turn their backs on Russia and started to look up to the West. The same West that for centuries not only passively watched the horrors of Christian life under the Ottomans, but in the dying years of the Ottoman Empire actively supported the mortally wounded beast against the restless Serbs just because the the West the Serbs seemed too Russia-loving.
Not unlike President Vucic, Serbia’s King Milan Obrenovic who hated his own people for their undying love for Russia was also a “lying dog-faced pony soldier”, a Russophobe who in 1877 bluntly refused to fulfill his own promise to assist Russian forces when they crossed the Danube. In 1878 during the battle of Plevna, the Serb King again refused to render assistance to the Russians (Russophobia among Serbs 1878-2017, 2017, Mirovic, Catena Mundi).
Interesting to note is the fact that current President’s party is also called the Serbian Progressive Party or SNS in Serbian. A party of the same name existed under varying names from 1871 and was the party favoured by Russophobic King Milan Obrenovic. The then Progressive Party was maned by extremist Russophobes, again, not unlike its modern iteration albeit the modern ones are less in-your-face.
In 1948 the Serb elites, albeit under Croat/Slovene/Austro-Hungarian Tito, again turned their backs on Russia/USSR and dragged the Serbs under the fledgling NATO yoke. Under Tito, Thousands of honest Serbs were locked up on forsaken island of Goli Otok, a gulag created for the Serb Russophiles where they would endure punishments similar or worse to the ones in Guantanamo Bay. Many perished there too. The reason: thoughtcrime.
A forgotten lesson:
King Milan was forced to abdicate. Many members of the earlier iterations of his Progressive Party were lynched by their own irked constituents caused by Progressive Party members’ various crimes, machinations and notorious bacchanalians (Prime Minister Milutin Garasanin, member of the Progressive Party, once fired 5 shots into a protesting crowd all the while holding a cigarette in between his teeth, cowboy style). 700 members of the then Progressive Party were arrested, over 400 got long prison sentences. The party was routed and its name did not appear until 1906, shortly disappeared again, only to be resurrected by NATO/EU in 2012.
Marko, I’ve been really impressed with your comments and welcome the new addition.
But your latest post truly does represent a very select and bias recollection of the competing dynasties and certain historical events. Not to mention completely omitting the Russian empire’s role in Serbia’s shifting allegiances, in the latter part of the 19th century. And I come from a very long line of Karađorđević military officers. I know you were trying to make a brilliant historical correlation to the present quisling government, but it’s missing a whole lot of facts and clarification.
I’m not even going to justify your horrid assertion that Serb “elites” ( what elites? They were all killed by Tito) somehow backstabbed the USSR in 1948, with any counterpoint . Even with your Tito clarification, That’s a disgusting and completely misleading statement…. Just saying.
For most of the 19th century, The Russian empire’s main ally, on the Balkans, was Bulgaria. Even though, Serbia was the first country to successfully regain their freedom from the Ottomans, on Balkan Pennisula and had historically been far greater allies than the Bulgars.
There’s no doubt that Russia did provide aid, (and Serbia reciprocated when possible), but it was nothing compared to the sacrifices the Russians made for Bulgaria. Additionally, preceding those 1877 and 1878 events, the Russians continually backed the Bulgarians, in territorial disputes, and many others against Serbia. As you well know, Serbia’s main objective was to restore their old territories, where a majority of the population in those Serbian territories still identified as Serbs.
I applaud the partial historical accuracy, however selective and misleading, but you need to but it in the proper context. To demonize Milan Obrenovic , without full historical context, is just plain wrong. The 1948 comment….wth?
Thank you for your kind words and for the criticism too. It is most welcome especially when extended in such a civilised manner. I too enjoy reading your contributions here and I always learn something new from you which is the reason I visit this site.
However, I stand by my assertions above. In 1878 one thousand Russians died fighting in the Serbian-Turkish wars of 1876-1878 which, according to Mirovic whom I quoted earlier, was 15% of the total casualties on the Serb side. Have you ever heard of 1000 Austrian, German, Italian or French soldiers dying to liberate the Serbs? Of course not. And yet King Milan Obrenovic due to his shallow mentality of a provincial megalomaniac who got a few hundred square kilometres less spat on all that and turned coat. He could have turned westward to secure western Serb lands there but no – His bosses from Austro-Hungary were there preparing annexation of what is now Bosnia and Herzegovina.
As for 1948, many Serbs (especially from Montenegro and what is now Bosnia and Croatia) took part in Tito’s movement (co-opted from genuine partisan movement who defended their families from Croatian terror) and formed an “elite” whether we like it or not. That “elite” killed off the old one you talk about and left behind their drugged up, sexed up halfbreed offspring who got Fulbright stipends in the 70’s and 80’s and sold their lands for beads. The old elite was corrupt and degenerated and was guilty of bringing about the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovens instead of the Great Serbia, for their incorporation of the losing side namely Croats into the the newly formed state, for their treatment of the WWI veterans, etc. but I agree they did not deserve to be routed the way they were by Titoists.
I want to point out an unfortunate trait of Serb mentality to trust Western snake oil merchants who do not like us nor want us alive and our refusal to admit that without Russia, with all her imperfections and miscalculation, we will perish as a people.
What we saw two days ago with Vucic and Trump slapping him like a bitch is a culmination of our aimless wondering about. (A sane person would never put himself, and by extension, his nation through that)
Thank you for such a kind and well informed response. Excellent, in fact. We may not completely agree, but these are the kind of discussions we need to have (amongst caring and involved Serbs), if we are to chart a better path forward. History repeating, as the old cliche goes…
Look forward to working together in the future.
Indeed. Thank you.
For me as Russian. it’s good to know that at least some Serbs remember what sacrifices Russia brought for your people.
But, I’m afraid you’re not in majority at least among those who decide how Serbia will live.
Don’t you worry. There are 100s of thousands of us if not millions. It is just that the Western stooges are in positions of power and more vocal but the Serb core is Russian-loving and we cherish everything Russia has ever done to help us. It is in our blood to love Russia.
As a nation we are on our knees. Literally, Sharon Stone style. We lowered our guard at some point of time, got conquered and now languishing but when the time comes, albeit again through suffering and sacrifice, we will again stand strong. God willing.
Glad to hear, but those millions decide nothing. And your Vucic on knees begging for mercy from killer of his country. He’s playing with NATO, but asking Russia to thank him for buying cheap Russian gas (thank him!!!) and for not completely betray her (but he’s started to do it actually), insists on his right to be humilated.
All this is not much optimistic, is it?
The only good news came from Montenegro, seem they btgan to understan something, it’s Serbia’s turn now.
Yuri, it certainly doesn’t look good and the picture you paint is that bleak if not worse. The role of Serbs is that of a canary in a mineshaft. We delivered a few decades of respite to Russia for her to get her bearings and get ready for the next Nazi campaign towards East. The US is putting finishing touches on their destruction of Serb lands and people but it did take them since 1989 if not earlier to do that. In 1999 they showcased to the world (Russia and China) that they are next. But it turned out that that was their pinnacle. Yes, the Serbs are spent but the baton was passed on.
IMHO: What is happening in Serb lands is NATO’s sorting out its rear before the next phase, more kinetic, towards Russia. They are desperate and want war. Can they win it? I don’t care as it is going to be the end of humanity anyway. But the Satanists may want just that as it was showed in the plandemic.
Marko, I as majority of Russians have the most warm feelings to Serbs. It’s a pity that some of them like *djole* thinking that Russia ows something to him, his historical memory is too short.
But we see the difference between Serbs and other traitorious “Slavs” like Poles, Bulgarians, Slovaks, Chechs etc. Hope you won’t fall into this cesspit also.
You need to get rid of such scum people as those who’re proud of licking US’s boot.
PS: I’m new in this chat and don’t know is this any way to be notified if somebody answer me? Please tell if it exists.
PPS: Basing on time of your answes I presume you’re writing from America’s part of world?
Please keep in mind that majority of šajkača wearing Serbs (common people, peasants – to whom I belong too) never say Russia without saying Mother first. So, I assure you it’s not “some Serbs”, but many of us still swear by
As for šajkača wearing Serbs – Momo Kapor said that people who consistently wear šajkača are “the salt of this country…” According to him – the šajkača is much more than a cap; it is a form od defiance, courage, tenderness and spite. For several centuries it has protected the heads of Serbian people from natural disasters and defeats in war. It presents a holy tie to the past and a bond to life.
Traveling the world as a toiling prole I have met and worked with many different nationalities. Guess which one usually calls me братишка after only hearing my name/background and heartily shakes my hand?
Greetings from Finland!
Thank you for asking questions and genuinely being interested. From your many excellent posts, one can easily deduce your principled and logical stance. Don’t feel bad, most Russians and Serbs have no idea of the history and shared lineages. This will need to be an ongoing discussion, to ever come to any true understanding.
While the anonymous poster rightfully lays most of the blame, regarding the present dilemma, at the feet of the quisling Belgrade government, it’s far more complicated and there’s plenty of blame to go around. And just so we’re clear, I’m the always one to be singing Russia’s praises and preaching brotherhood to any confused Serb.
First, let me state that I have always had a love and respect for Russia ( not the USSR), and do not blame Russia for the communist destruction of Serbian ruled Yugoslavia. I know that we come from the same proto-slavic tribe (at least Slavic Russians) and up through the 18th century, called each other Nashi (ours, the same). Up until the 13th century the Russian and Serbian languages were identical.
Like the Saker, most of my immediate, surviving family were driven from their homes, by communists. My family has never blamed Russia and I was always taught that they were our true brothers and sisters. That’s the case with most Serbs in the diaspora. On to your question:
What the Russians could have done differently in the nineties?
Since I was the only one to even question any so called betrayal of Russia, and question just how much support Serbia has gotten, let me say that I never once even insinuated that Russia betrayed Serbia in the nineties. Russia was under a quisling government and really couldn’t do much (outside of insanely threatening nuclear retaliation. That would have stopped those tough guys, trust me) But since you asked for more clarity, there’s a big difference between declaring war on behalf of Serbia and openly aiding the Empire in its destruction of Serbia.
– Before the 99’, attack, The Russian government constantly denounced the Serbian position, officially
– while refusing to sell advanced weaponry to Serbia, certain factions in Russia even furnished advanced weaponry to Croats as they perpetrated the final ethnic cleansing of Serbs from their ancient lands in Krajina and the Dalmatian coast. The S-300 was available well before the Americans, Europe and Turkey bombed Serbia continuously for nearly 3 months.
A better question is what Russia has done to help Serbia, since Putin arrived. There has been considerable support, which Serbia has benefited from including, but not limited to:
1.) 6 to12 gifted Mig 29’s and I believe at least several dozen tanks
2.) free trade agreements -though mostly symbolic because of the incredible restrictions and regulatory hoops, one must traverse to conduct business in and export to Russia
3.) VIP invitations for Vucic to attend the grand victory parades.
4.) Immediate and vital assistance, both equipment and personnel, to combat the corona virus.
5.) promises of large investment in the energy and finance sectors that have yet to materialize into substantial investments.
Unfortunately, there have also been a few major Russian policy decisions that have caused severe damage to Serbian interests. Here’s one biggy, for now. Russia actively supported Crna Gora’s (Montenegro) secession from Serbia. It was also major Russian capital that filled the coffers of Djukanovic and his cronies. A little personal anecdotal evidence, When I was introduced to Djukanovic’s inner circle in the United States, it was a Russian/Armenian businessman, who took Care of them in the US. He was from Moscow and most of the investment went directly Through him and his financial network.
Hopefully, that’s a decent start to the discussion. I hate playing devils advocate against my own Russophile positions, but it needs to be clear that both Russia and Serbia need to do more to protect each other’s interests. Russia’s national interests, for Russia, rightfully matters most. But to anyone knowledgeable, it’s in the best interest of Russia that their most loyal and historic ally is treated as such. It’s not just out of loyalty, but of vital Russian strategic interests. I’m optimistic and have high hopes once more Russians and Serbs learn the truth of their origins and the great sacrifices made in defense of each other, there will be little reason for any doubt or nuance.
Before I go and join the people on the patio, celebrating Labor Day, here’s a true oldy that few Serbs even know. Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria were the only original Orthodox churches to have representation on Mt. Athos, the holiest of holy for combined Christian Orthodoxy. It was Serbia that demanded from the Romans (Byzantium was the Roman Empire), that the Russian Orthodox church be considered a full equal and donated Serbian property on Mt. Athos. While early Russia was being ravaged by the Golden Horde, The Serbian King sent soldiers to fight and gifted the Srebrenica silver mine ( the biggest of the Serbian silver mines) to the Russian Orthodox Church, in the late 13th century. Yeah, we’ve got a few historical ties ;).
Many thanks for your kind words and thoughtful response, filling in historical facts.
It is so painful, even from afar, with no flesh and blood at stake, to see Serbia tortured by these historic events. All the while, at critical moments in Serbian history, it seems that no ally could act or act in sufficiency to prevent the disasters that have unfolded.
Though most of these events seem on their face to be geopolitical or ethnic or local, the result is an ongoing destruction (genocidal, cultural) of a great people and their nation.
Putin’s most recent rearming steps to upgrade the Serbian military, I believe, is part of his progression to re-establish Russian sphere of influence. In November, a possible S-400 purchase was turned down by Serbia under threats of sanctions by the US. But we see how far Putin is ready to go to preserve Serbia. https://tass.com/defense/1087242
His statements regarding Belarus clearing show Russia will not allow any further regression in the Russian sphere. Language, religion and “brotherhood” are the ties that Putin uses, as well as geography and historical connection.
What is needed is the voting citizens to get rid of the Quislings.
As a Serb I will say that Russia could not do anything in 1999 in the situation it was in – quite often commentators forget that the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was bombed by NATO killing a large number of Chinese diplomats, which was basically a declaration of war, & China – at the time – did very little. It is rumoured that Chinese military intelligence had the CIA station chief responsible for Belgrade murdered in Washington DC some time later, for his role in marking the embassy as a target, but I can not corroborate the truth of that. China did not openly retaliate, that is the point. Had the Russian government at the time been determined to prevent the NATO bombing of Serbia, however, there is much they could have done – this has been discussed in Serbia for years, including the supply of anti-aircraft weaponry (S-300s) to Serbia as a deterrent, & offering to station Russian military units all over Serbia. Russia did intervene in Kosovo later, by deploying at the Pristina airport, which helped much in the Serbian resistance in northern Kosovo to the Albanian onslaught, effectively guaranteeing the continued existence of the Serbian population in northern Kosovo.
I have it on good authority that the last thing President Putin needs right now is turmoil in the Balkans which would force his hand.
We, Serbs, understand what was situation in Russia during 90’s, and don’t blame you. (Our connections run deep …).
That sad, I think if we had S-300 instead of S-75, NATO would not attack.
Since the “document” signed by Vucic isn’t on official letter headed paper and doesn’t even mention what he’s supposed to be the president of, it’s arguably got no legal standing whatsoever. Two can play at that game, of course if only the Serbs have the gumption to play. After selling Miloseviç and giving away Montenegro, I kind of doubt it.
As per Mackinder, Russia and the Slavic world are being systematically surrounded. Ukraine, Belarus and now Serbia.
But why would Vucic subject himself to this? It’s a bit unexpected. One wouldn’t think Serbian elites would reach this low. Either way, that piece of paper merits no recognition at all.
Reading the Vucic signed document, it is important to note the action word “will”.This is a promise to act.
If the wording was “shall”, it is a legal obligation to act.
I wonder why only one signature when it refers to both parties throughout.
Basically, it is a talking document, received by the traitor but carrying no legal impact.
Serbia doesn’t have to do any of it.
It is not even a memo of agreement or memo of understanding.
The heading is a Topic. The body of the document are proposed steps under the topic.
It is spun sugar, cotton candy.
Of course, a traitor can do what it lays out. But the document is non-binding.
How is the document received in Belgrade?
Vucic’s out clause is that he only signed this document with US and noone else.
“We signed today a bilateral agreement with the United States, this is not a trilateral agreement, which is very important. This is a bilateral agreement because the third party is not recognized in this agreement as a subject of international law”, Vucic said, as broadcast by national TV. (Sputniknews)
There, straight from the horse’s.. eh.. gelding’s mouth.
I have no doubt the Vučić syncophants will soon arrive here and we know more about the spin.
Thanks, Serbian girl.
This document is not an agreement. And Agreement has a title and all the parties to the Agreement sign it.
If this is the actual document he refers to, it is a notation. From the US POV, it is a list of instructions. They expect him to obey, fulfill the various steps.
“Will you do these normalizations?”
“Yes, I will.” He signs it.
But it is Hegemonic Orders to Vucic to sell out these specifics or else.
Why would Serbia, a nation, agree with a non-nation? Yet, in the first sentence they are equated.
For “Vučić syncophants” this is just another in the long list of non-events.
The problem, Larch, that in the Balkans, to rectify two sheets of paper of criminal betrayal means hectolitres of spilled blood and quite literally – heaps of dead bodies. This guy and the system that brought him and those like him (most of the opposition too) must go. He has done immeasurable damage already.
Patriots in Belgrade are flabbergasted but so far quiet. Ruling bullhorns are applauding and presenting the document and the meeting as “another victory for brave President Vucic”.
The agreement(s) is not worth the paper it was written on. There is something more sinister behind this event.
The most important part was Israel !
This was Jared Kushner (using Richard Grenell) making Jerusalem the star on the hill using an old foe to kneel to their commands.
Actually it was a very important event in the transitioning of power from Washington DC to the Zionist State of Israel.
I’m afraid it’s still an international treaty, only in an older form, in which both parties are given separate and slightly different documents to sign. It was a practice used in XVIII and XIX century diplomacy though rarely used today.
We should also note that the Treaty of Brussels signed in 2013, while not recognized as an international treaty by the Serbian Constitutional Court (to whitewash Vucic from legal responsibility of violating the constitution) but a political one. However, Serbia fulfilled every single obligation from the Treaty of Brussels, whereas so-called Kosovo fulfilled none.
Everything we saw in the recent Western dealings with Serbia indicates that Vucic will fulfill everything he signed.
PS Vucic was exposed as a liar in saying Serbia signed a bilateral treaty with the USA. Grenell denied this, USA didn’t sign anything, only Serbia and Kosovo did. Vucic himself backtracked and said he signed ‘a paper of intentions.’
The Americans will hold him responsible for doing everything he signed.
That pic looks like an interrogation of a controlled employee. Get couch Mr President.
Referring to the comment “… That looks a lot better and more dignified, doesn’t it? …” about Trump’s signed letter to that drug-pushing women-selling organs-trading šiptar: have you noticed that the letter has no date on it?!!…….
Here is the abridged version of this America-brokered diplomatic agreement that the Serbian “President” just signed:
Serbia duly and faithfully agrees …. to drop its pants and bend over for the Americans.
No doubt tranny bathrooms and a Fort Trump are surely coming to Serbia. ;-)
“the comma after the word “year” gives the game away”
I think you are referring to the comma after “… its de-recognition campaign”.
Goy vassal states & how they are mocked and abused by their Zionist overlords. Today’s case study: Serbia.
Thanks to The Saker and Eric for the great summary of the recent developments.
The pro-government Serbian press have already spun this as “A Historical Bilateral Agreement with the US” and the greatest victory in 102 years… But remember Vucic is playing the West and will NEVER recognise Kosovo and he defied Trump by demanding that article #10 be removed seeking mutual recognition…
If the Brussel’s Agreements were traitorous then I’m dumb founded to describe the levels that Vucic and his government are prepared to go to convince the population that they’re patriots defending Serbia’s interests…??
Now the spin masters are working overdrive to repair any diplomatic issues with allies after M. Zakharova let her feelings known on social media with Carl Bildt summing things up best with his cheeky video. Of course Vucic and his satraps attacked them both and to ammend any misunderstandings with Russia he made a phone call with Lavrov but there’s confusion as to what was said as both sides released differing transcripts…
I can wait for the sandwich eaters to come out defending the indefensible… Sad times we live in!
From Margarita Simonyan’s Telegram linked above: https://t.me/margaritasimonyan/6955
Не надо стебать Вучича. Это как стебать жертву изнасилования: типа, неудачница, что попала в такое.
То, что сделали с Сербией – это, конечно, политическое изнасилование. И все эти пункты про 5G, про посольство в Иерусалиме, про газ и систему, блин, досмотра в аэропорту – все эти неотносящееся к делу пункты, конечно, специально включены в договор Сербии и Косово, чтобы подчеркнуть это изнасилование. Усилить его. Мол, что б мы ни сказали, вы все подпишите.
Издеваясь над жертвой насилия, мы только подыгрываем насильнику, он добился своего.
Когда агрессор сначала бомбит, потом дожимает всем политическим весом и в итоге добивается своего – это не вина жертвы. Если кто, кроме агрессора, и виновен, так это весь мир, допустивший такое.
Translated by iTranslate:
Don’t be shy. It’s like fucking a rape victim: like, loser who got into this.
What they did to Serbia is, of course, political rape. And all those paragraphs on 5G, the embassy in Jerusalem, the gas and the system, the damn airport search — all these unrelated items, of course, are specifically included in the Serbia and Kosovo treaty, to emphasize this rape. Strengthen him. Like, whatever we say, you’re all gonna sign.
We’re just playing a rapist, he’s getting his way.
When the aggressor first bombs, then squeezes all political weight and eventually gets his own, it’s not the victim’s fault. If anyone but the aggressor is guilty, it’s the whole world that let it happen.
I am not sure about regional issues, but it does seem to be a world wide effort to destabilize economies and traditional cultures. The point of doing such a thing, I would assume would be to replace such organizations with a new more extractive process.
By which I mean more economic taxation as well as disrupting what could be organized resistance to the new policies introduced by the parasitic financial class.
I have heard (on this website) that the actual enemy is the central bank. But you must still identify the people who run that institution. But it seems to me that the central question is What Can We Do now to make a difference.
I am living paycheck to paycheck. I need to keep my head down… and survive. I am guessing most people are in the same position. How can you change things when you are one car repair away from disaster?
That is why the current riots are going on now. Black vs. White … Pandemic… be afraid, be very afraid my opinion is that this a induced state of mind. Keep people divided over BS rather than working together for a Common Cause.
This is where stand up and leave comes to mind.
Alone the fact, that Serbia – representative of – consider Kosovo as an equal party, – not Serbia hence – is something a duly authorized Serbian representative should / would never sign. Serbia can not enter in any agreement with itself – if Serbs are serious that Kosovo is still part of Serbia.
This article is translated via Yandex Browser. I thought it was comprehensive and specific and worth the entire read.
Vucic in Washington Caused Irreparable Damage to Serbia
We can only hope that Serbia will soon become a free country again, and Vucic will be held accountable for unconstitutional actions contrary to the will of the Serbian people.
MLADJAN DJORDJEVIC, September 5, 2020, 19: 54 — REGNUM
Yesterday, the long-awaited meeting of Belgrade and Pristina delegations took place in Washington, I. e. President of Serbia Alexander Vucic and Prime Minister of the so-called Kosovo Avdulla Hoti. Despite the fact that the negotiations were conducted with no authorized mediation of the United States, because the only legitimate mediator in resolving this issue is the EU and, indirectly, the UN Security Council, it turned out that the announced “most important document in history” was only a disastrous step for Serbia’s international interests.
Before considering the content of this document, it is necessary to determine it correctly. Since we are talking about a document that does not have two signatories in either version, but was signed separately by Vucic and Hoti, this is not an international Treaty. On the other hand, the only thing that President trump signed were “thanks” to Vucic and Hoti for their willingness to cooperate. Therefore, the United States, of course, cannot be considered a party to the Treaty. In addition, even the content of the documents signed by Hoti and Vucic differs in one last point. Thus, this document cannot be a Treaty, an international agreement or any other agreement, it has no legal force, does not entail any legal consequences, and its non-performance does not entail any legal sanctions. At best, the signed document can be considered a “letter of intent”, but even as such it has countless (negative for Serbia) political consequences.
It is noteworthy that even a cursory glance at the document shows that the” signing parties “are” Serbia (Belgrade) and Kosovo (Pristina)”. In other words, unlike what was previously agreed under EU auspices as a standard for the documents of these parties (an asterisk next to the name “Kosovo” and a footnote on compliance with Resolution 1244), this document does not do so. The task of Serbian lawyers now is to assess whether the signing of the document formulated in this way contains elements of a criminal act of violation of the constitutional order, for which Vucic will sooner or later be brought to justice under the Brussels agreement of 2013.
Although Vucic, who participated in these negotiations without any platform or plan approved by the Serbian Parliament, thus once again violating his constitutional authority, now tries to present this document as a historical achievement (some of his party colleagues even write about “Serbia’s greatest victory since world war I”), primarily from an economic point of view, it is obvious that such improbable interpretations are simply lies. The only point worth mentioning in the economic sphere concerns the commitments of Belgrade and Pristina to work together with the us international development Finance Corporation and the us Export-import Bank on the development of several infrastructure projects. However, the agreement does not specify either the terms or the amount of possible financial assistance for the implementation of these projects or their further specification. In this respect, what is signed can very easily remain a dead letter.
The question remains whether all the things discussed below, and what Serbia was politically (not legally) obliged to do, were worth the damage that was done to our interests, and even more so, whether this was the only way to achieve such solutions.
First of all, both sides have committed to “diversify their energy sources”. Taking into account the structure of Serbian energy imports and our strong, almost exclusive connection with Russia in this area, this point can only be understood as a demand from Serbia to immediately switch from importing Russian oil and Russian gas to other, American, Azerbaijani or some third sources. Since it is not clear what this point has to do with” normalizing economic relations between Belgrade and Pristina, ” the question remains how Russia will understand the Serbian President’s easily expressed willingness to replace it in this area.
Similarly, China may interpret the following paragraph of the agreement, concerning the prevention and prohibition of the import of “5G equipment from unverified suppliers”to the Serbian market. This, although without explicit instructions, of course applies to the Chinese company Huawei, with which President trump has been openly fighting for several months. However, it remains unclear why Vucic agrees to such elements of the agreement, especially given his recent vow of steely friendship and brotherhood with Chinese President XI Jinping.
These two points may have negative consequences for Serbia’s international situation and its relations with China and Russia, since these two countries are currently the only guarantors of the preservation of Resolution 1244, according to which Kosovo remains part of Serbia. Such an open and, above all, unnecessary violation of relations with two friendly countries can only testify to the charlatanism and shortsightedness of Alexander Vucic’s foreign policy.
And what to say about relations with Israel, for which, paradoxically, together with Pristina, these negotiations turned out to be the most profitable… Please try to find logic in what Alexander Vucic agreed to: Israel and so-called Kosovo agree to mutual recognition (a document signed by Hoti), while Serbia (probably as a reward for such a step) agrees to move its Embassy from tel Aviv to Jerusalem. In addition, both Belgrade and Pristina agree to classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
The points formulated in this way are among the worst for Serbia in the history of international legal documents signed by our officials. With these two points, Serbia seriously damaged relations not only with the Arab and Muslim world by recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, but also agreed to do so without receiving anything in return. On the contrary, I remind you that Israel recognizes “Kosovo”. On the other hand, Vucic’s disastrous move against Hezbollah may, in retaliation, lead to new recognitions of Kosovo by some Muslim countries that have not yet done so. This also applies to Lebanon, where this political organization actively exercises power. Not to mention further deterioration of relations with Iran, Iraq, Syria and even Russia. For Serbia, all this is absolutely unnecessary interference in matters that have nothing to do with the goal of these negotiations — improving economic relations between Belgrade and Pristina.
The point about “working to decriminalize homosexuality in 69 countries of the world” also has nothing to do with this, but still Vucic agreed to this. After all, really, who can believe that some of these 69 countries will repeal, for example, the provisions prohibiting the promotion of homosexuality, because Serbia and the so-called Kosovo call them to do so. And this is just a completely unnecessary intervention in matters that do not concern Serbia and that are only a consequence of the fact that the main mediator in the negotiations — trump’s special representative Richard Grenelle — is a homosexual.
Finally, perhaps the worst point of the agreement for Serbia is the one that concerns lobbying for recognition of the so-called Kosovo. On the one hand, Serbia has pledged not to hold a campaign to revoke recognition of “Kosovo” for one year, unlike the previous two years, when 18 countries of the world withdrew recognition with the help of Russia, while Pristina can freely lobby for recognition of its so-called “independence”. The only restriction for it will be membership in international organizations, which, according to the agreement, Pristina will not have the right to demand for one year.
All these are more than controversial aspects of the document signed yesterday. It seems that all this was completely unnecessary, and that everyone won in these negotiations, except Serbia, in which Alexander Vucic is the only culprit. Trump achieved “important foreign policy success” during his presidential campaign, Pristina received important international recognition for Israel, and Israel will receive the first two European embassies in Jerusalem. Serbia has received absolutely nothing but promises.
It is very sad that these documents essentially affect the interests of only the false state of “Kosovo” and the state of Israel. This case once again showed that Serbia should not negotiate under the auspices of the United States, which is the main sponsor of “Kosovo independence”, without the participation of other great powers, primarily Russia and China, and even the leading EU powers.
With such actions, Alexander Vucic causes irreparable damage to Serbia’s interests and begins the final phase of betrayal of Kosovo and Metohija, the ultimate goal of which is the membership of this separatist creation in the UN in a year or two. We can only hope that Serbia will soon become a free country again, and Vucic will be held accountable for unconstitutional actions contrary to the will of the Serbian people.
September 5, 2020
Любое использование материалов допускается только при наличии гиперссылки на ИА REGNUM.
The backpedaling starts:
Vucic phoned Lavrov to tell him that Serbia will not diversify gas imports in favour of more expensive gas…
“The Serbian President explained that the agreement still has a clause, which implies a generalized diversification of energy resources. “Thus, this is a generalized norm, which does not pose a problem for us, and we will do it. It is not only about gas, but also concerns other sources of energy,” Vucic said”
“… Vucic phoned Lavrov …”
I can’t help but feel sorry for Lavrov. Poor man, by virtue of his position he is obliged to deal with refuse like that – and still keep a straight face… He must have nerves of steel.
I too think Mr Djordjevic (although I do not like his EU remarks) is correct.
I am totally convinced now – bring back the USSR and Yugoslavia. At least the people’s of these two great nations lived with dignity and pride. I think enough is enough. Putin should now work for the re-emergence of a new and improved USSR and take back the Balkans where it’s people have lived as the laughing stock of Europe for the last twenty years. And to those opposed ideologically to the Soviet Union, I say the hammer and sickle can sit perfectly well together with Tsarist Russia’s two-heared eagle. Take the good things from both and re-create a new, streamlined superstate which together with China that can safeguard sovereignty and equality for all.
I can see that you speak from the heart. Stay tuned for an article coming soon.
Looking forward to it Ken. The best thing Putin can do now is help organize a referendum throughout the former republics of the USSR, except the three Baltic states and a few others, ask the the people whether they would want the USSR to be re-created. As I said it needs to be a modern, streamlined version incorporating the humane ideals of communism and the upholding of traditional values of pre-Soviet days. It needs to focus on economic development that would rival China’s achievements. It can become a superstate that the whole world can admire.
“one of the weirdest documents in the history of international relations”
I absolutely agree. If someone was writing a satirical novel whose thesis is that the US now exists to spread Jewish power and LGBT culture in the world, and that Russia and China are its main opponents, they might have come up with something like this.
It’s also hard not to see this as Vucic decisively turning west… I read somewhere that events in Montenegro are a plus for Serbia. Is the trend here towards Serbia-Montenegro and Albania-Kosovo as de facto unions, and both now within the western sphere?
the setting of the image, the president of Serbia sitting in the middle of the Office, like an accused, is utterly HUMILIATING. politically, it is a HARAKIRI, the countdown of his fading.
I really do not understand all this drama about this so called agreement
And I do not understand why Serbs are so upset, I mean some Serbs
This agreement will remain just dead paper and nothing else.
Only thing that is not clear to me is this Israel and Jerusalem question. Why is all of that involved in this problem between Serbs and Albanians
It is not clear to me whether Israel is going to recognize Kosovo
And what if Israel recognize Kosovo. Nothing will change basically. I am surprised that Israel has never recognized Kosovo so far.
In that case, Serbia SHOULD NOT move embassy to Jerusalem. It is stupid to do that if Israel really recognize Kosovo
I think that it is too much noise about this. Serbia has to give something to America and West so they leave Serbia in peace at least for a while, because American and Western pressure on Serbia is enormous.
In two months nobody will even remember this episode and almost nothing from this agreement will be implemented.
Serbia refused to recognize Kosovo and for Serbs it is only important issue.
Everything will be implemented, only USA have the power to annul agreements, spineless leaders of small countries do not have that option.
For a “non-event” it sure came at a high cost politically for Vucic, and for Serbia.
Signing agreements, then reneging them…inserting himself into the diplomatic powder keg of Jerusalem…it was all completely unnecessary!
If he actually stood up for himself (and his country) he would probably be treated with more respect. Instead he has destroyed any credibility he had left and is now the butt of jokes.
He is now in Brussels continuing the “dialogue” with the Albanians.
All I want now, is for this dimwit clown to come home before he does any more damage.
Does he even have the constitutional power,as President, to travel around and sign agreements without any parliamentary oversight?
“This agreement will remain just dead paper and nothing else.”
There’s a practice in international law in which all the previous treaties concluded between two parties, regardless of whether one party is internationally recognized or not, are used to conclude a final treaty, in this content, it would mean that Serbia is recognizing Kosovo step by step and that a potential final treaty on ‘normalization’ of relations would directly refer to the Treaty of Brussels and the recent Treaty in Washington, the spirit of which would influence the potential final treaty.
Here is a fact: Serbia and Kosovo are referred to in both versions of the documents signed as parties to the agreement. Serbia has thus recognized Kosovo as a party that can sign international agreements, moreover, which is in effect, recognition of Kosovo’s sovereignty. The right to enter into international agreements with other parties is a prerogative of a sovereign nation, again, regardless of whether the sovereignty is internationally recognized or not.
By signing the Treaty of Brussels Serbia has also officially relinquished its remaining sovereignty on Kosovo and recognized the institutions of Kosovo. After 2013, Serbian local authorities have been incorporated into Kosovo’s judicial system, the same also goes for Serbian police. The local authorities in three majority Serb municipalities in north Kosovo was also dismantled and incorporated into Kosovan structures. By this example, we clearly see how the Treaty of Brussels produced both legal and political consequences.
During the negotiations in Brussels, Kosovo was represented in official documents with an asterisk in regard to its independence not being recognized by Serbia.
In Washington, Serbia and Kosovo were both treated as independent states and US officials referred to them as such both verbally and in the treaty itself. Only Serbia and Kosovo are parties to the agreements. Both signatories (Serbian President and Kosovan PM) are parties to the agreement.
The agreement will produce legal consequences under international law.
Reference: UN Convention on the Law of Treaties (1969)
The piece of paper he signed in Washington is not a treaty (which is between 2 states and then ratified)
It’s a treaty, Kosovo may be a partially recognized state but both Serbia and Kosovo are parties to the treaty they signed. The President or PM’s signature is already legally binding the state they represent under international law.
Ratification of a said treaty is a purely internal matter as a means to bring the treaty signed in compliance with the laws of the country which is ratifying it. That doesn’t change the reality of it being a treaty under international law.
This treaty is just another step towards the finalization of the process of Serbian implicitly recognizing Kosovo as a sovereign entity. In effect, Serbia has already recognized Kosovo as such, for the first time Kosovo was represented without the asterisk. When such precedence is created once, it has a domino effect.
Besides being incorrect, you are persisting in your ignorance of the legal form of what a Treaty is.
Read the Serbian Constitution and see what the legal requirements are.
My comment is addressed to @Mairon.
“Article 11. MEANS OF EXPRESSING CONSENT TO BE BOUND BY A TREATY
The consent of a State to be bound by a treaty may be expressed by signature, exchange of instruments constituting a treaty, ratification, acceptance, approval or accession, or by any other means if so agreed.
Article 12. CONSENT TO BE BOUND BY A TREATY EXPRESSED BY SIGNATURE
1. The consent of a State to be bound by a treaty is expressed by the signature of its representative when:
(a) The treaty provides that signature shall have that effect;
(b) It is otherwise established that the negotiating States were agreed that signature
should have that effect; or
(c) The intention of the State to give that effect to the signature appears from the
full powers of its representative or was expressed during the negotiation.
2. For the purposes of paragraph 1 :
(a) The initialling of a text constitutes a signature of the treaty when it is established
that the negotiating States so agreed;
(o) The signature ad referendum of a treaty by a representative, if confirmed by his State, constitutes a full signature of the treaty.”
Then it’s up to you to show exactly how I’m incorrect. The President is authorized to sign legally binding treaties even if contrary to the constitution. We’re speaking of what constitutes a legally binding treaty that produces consequences under international law.
To be sure, it’s not my opinion, but that of professors of law in Serbia (Kosta Cavoski, Zoran Cvorovic).
Give us the link to your experts.
The history of Treaties in Serbia is they are ratified by the National Assembly.
Why ratify if a signature is all that is needed?
Why have a separation of powers?
You quote the UN in your link, but where is the Constitution of Serbia?
Is the man an autocrat and needs no legal system?
I think you may be confusing international law with Serbian law, in this case. The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (of which Serbia is a party) does not require the treaty to be ratified to be valid under international law. Ratification is required to bring the international treaty in compliance with the legal system of the signatory and is thus passed into law.
Ratification defines the international act whereby a state indicates its consent to be bound to a treaty if the parties intended to show their consent by such an act. In the case of bilateral treaties, ratification is usually accomplished by exchanging the requisite instruments, while in the case of multilateral treaties the usual procedure is for the depositary to collect the ratifications of all states, keeping all parties informed of the situation. The institution of ratification grants states the necessary time-frame to seek the required approval for the treaty on the domestic level and to enact the necessary legislation to give domestic effect to that treaty.
[Arts.2 (1) (b), 14 (1) and 16, Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969]”
In essence, the treaty enters into force without being ratified by the signatory country. Now, the Treaty of Brussels, for example, was never ratified by the Serbian parliament. The Constitutional Court gave a ruling in which it stated it was a political act, therefore not a legally binding act that doesn’t contain general legal norms and does not produce legal consequences.
However, Serbia has fulfilled all the obligations it took upon itself, and Vucic himself had stated numerous times that Serbia will fulfill every last clause the agreement contained. In effect, the Treaty of Brussels produced legal consequences for Serbia, and partially Kosovo as well, and bears a lot of similarities with the treaty signed in Washington a couple of days ago.
Serbian judiciary has been completely subservient to the executive branch for decades now. Let’s take just the recent dubious acts by Vucic, from proclaiming a state of emergency contrary to usual legal procedures to pressuring the electoral committee to disregard the ruling of the court which ordered that elections be repeated at a number of polling stations. That’s just scratching the surface. Vucic has usurped for himself all power to an extent that he alone decides everything, down to the most minuscule detail.
Now, he and Dacic had already played their trick on us once, when they signed the Treaty of Brussels. In my opinion, the Constitutional Court caved in to political pressure and failed to exercise the very role it exists to fulfill.
Vucic will never ratify the treaty he signed in Washington and will attempt to downplay its importance but everything this man has done so far indicates he will fulfill everything he signed.
As for the experts I mentioned:
Only in Serbian though.
With what was Vucic threatened that made him sign his death sentence ?
So who is going to come a help Serbia when its in trouble, from flooding and other such events… just to mention one of the many things Russia has helped Serbia with…. ???
etc etc etc… this is 100% surrender… and the photo shows, a man totally humiliated…
Look, Americans humiliate everyone
They are convinced that they are exceptional and humiliate everybody. Remember Macron in White House and when they admitted that they spied Merkel’s phone. And Victoria Nuland and her well known words – fuck the EU.
And what can you expect from President of some small Balkan country. And it is not only Vučić.
But we have seen only picture of Vučić in such position. But believe me that no President of any small country have had better treatment in White house.
You are right. Amricans do that at will. As for Kosovo, what really changes on the ground, signature or no signature, treaty or no treaty. Absolutely nothing. Imagine, for sake of argument, Vuchic sign deal with Putin or China denouncing Kosovo and USA. What would happen – nothing. NATO is not the same as 20 years ago, so bluster and harassing and abusing little guys is all they have. Let somebody answer: how many people would go to Kosovo, if tomorrow it was returnd to Serbia? ANybody?
The talk about international law, treties – no one cares and never cared about that. Small guys do what strong guys say and that is it. Always was, always will be. When situation is such that little guys lift the head up a little, thay do it, no exception. For example Tito. Yes, he was not Serbian, sent lots of serbs to Goli Otok – Gulag. And he pissed off Stalin in 1948.
How many peole know that he pissed off USA and British as well. See, Tito won for Croatia adriatic coast and parts of Italy, just after WWii – The crisis of Trieste. Yu units were in Italy, thertatening conflict with Brits and USA, who also had their troops ready. Maybe he was bluffing, but at some point he scrambled whatever aviation he had at the time, and a squadron took of from Mostar to Slovenis- Italy border. Then everybody calmed down. Tito removed troops from what is today Italian sisde of the border, and US/Brits retreated a bit, not to piss him off.
I know he lived as king, did this and that, communist, prevented Serbiam monarchy to come back. Had the serbian royals had significant troops ready, perhaps the WWii would have had a different outcome. No army? No problem. Thay were in London, thay are related to british monarchy. Could not thay have lobbied for serbian cause? They either could not or did not want. If they could not – to bad, you are not capable of ruling if you cannot fight for the country. I know, king was only 15 years old, but he was 19 at the end of war. His mamma did not allow him to come to serbia to fight? Who prevented them all from ordering D. Mihailovich to startserious operations, before Tito had a chance to do anything? Rulers do not need excuses, they have no time for that. And they are all slimy, cruel, lying cheating, deceivin, cross and double cross.
With Serbs, he who leaves the county in times of hardship, cannot ever return. Why do you think Serbs accepted Milos and rejected Karadjordje? It was no secret what Milos did. But, he stayed within the country. Karadjordje fled to Austria after his rebelion was broken by Ottomans. Leaders humiliate themselves, for thair personal gain, but sometimes in teh process here and there a good thing happens to the people.
If you have power, you do as you widh. If not, you do as told. Whining about international and national laws, constitutions does not help. Recalling history does not help. Politics is not comducted on pride and honour. Has theer ever been a politician who was honourable man? They all cheated and lied and betrayed allies. . Not ever. Hitler was not honorable, all agree. How about Churchil? Even F. D. Roosevelt? Stalin? Eltsin? Did not he make a clown of himself publicly with Clinton? He was a traitor, they say. But he was the one who put Putin in Power. There are always two side of everything, we just do not know it.
Stalin was a bit naive and trusted the allies, and tried to honour agreements. That is whay Russia is in almost humiliating position, as Serbia is, even if they have the strongest military in the world? Let’s hope Putin is not as naive as Stalin.
To judge recent history at the time it happens, is nota good practice. Serbs, ignore emotions for a moment and start thinking. Once people start thinking thay might take some action. Anything else is empty talk.
I don’t know what’s worse, your revisionist history (fyi Tito did not challenge the Brits nor the Americans for anything, he was Churchills stooge. The real resistance fighter was Mihailovic) or the insults to the Serbian refugees who have been forced out of Kosovo due to ethnic cleansing (“how many people would go back tomorrow …etc”)
I think those people probably feel quite sad, for becoming refugees, and would love to go home one day.
Unfortunately I have met quite a few Serbs like you, with whom I share a passport but not much else..
You fail to understand the context. I was not speaking about international law in an abstract sense, but about international treaties. When a country agrees to take upon itself certain obligations by its representative signing a piece of paper, it produces consequences.
The kind of worldview you seem to condone is the exact one the Anglo-Zionist Empire subscribes to – Might Makes Right, we can do everything we want to, deal with it.
Surely, it’s not the kind of world you want to live in?
This seems to be the only kind of deal on offer from the Trump administration to other countries. This is why the North Korea negotiations or the “Deal of the Century” went no where. Serbia gets to join the small list of countries that has signed one of these “deals”. Is Serbia in a weaker position then the Palestinians?
“ All the while, at critical moments in Serbian history, it seems that no ally could act or act in sufficiency to prevent the disasters that have unfolded”
In typical Larch fashion, You’ve hit the nail on the head.
“Though most of these events seem on their face to be geopolitical or ethnic or local, the result is an ongoing destruction (genocidal, cultural) of a great people and their nation“
An incredibly insightful and kindhearted thing to say, sir. Thank you. The Saker has given breath to the story of the Serb nation (Thank you Ken and Eric). We’ve never asked for pity or used our tragedies as a pathetic excuse to do evil to others. The Serbs are far from perfect and have many regrettable and self inflicted mistakes to learn from.
But unlike most in history, we’ve time and time again been willing to sacrifice everything for freedom, from the earliest of Roman conquests. We were just across the Adriatic and it still took the Roman Empire centuries to conquer our lands. That spirit of resistance has been costly, but God willing, it’s who we’ll always be. We may me down on the mat, but we’re still here!
I’m proud of my ancestors heroic history of resistance and warrior spirit, but this description of Serbs, by German Clergyman Friedrich Griesendorf ,in his final sermon to his parishioners, is what I’m most proud of and I believe truly defines the Serbs:
“Our country lost the war. The English, Americans and Russians won. Maybe they had much better equipment, larger armies, better leadership. In reality, it was an explicit material victory. They took the victory. However, among victors there is one nation that won another more beautiful victory, a victory of the soul, a victory of the heart and honesty, a victory of peace and Christian love. They are the Serbs! We knew them earlier, some a little and some not at all. But we all knew what we did in their homeland. We killed hundreds of the Serbs who defended their country for one of our soldiers who represented the occupier — the oppressor. And not only that, we looked favorably when others shot at Serbs from all sides; The Croats,the Italians, Albanians, Bulgarians and Hungarians. Yet we knew that among us in the prisoner of war camps were 5,000 Serbian officers, who earlier were the elite of the society and, who now resembled living skeletons, exhausted and spent from hunger. We knew that among the Serbs smoldered the belief ‘He who does not avenge is not sanctified’.” “We were truly afraid of the revenge by these Serbian martyrs. We already saw our children in canals, baked in town bakeries. We were terrified by the horror that was coming. We were afraid that after our capitulation they would do what we did to them. We imagined murder, plunder, rape, demolition and destruction of our homes. However, what happened later in reality? When the barbed wires were torn down and 5,000 Serbian skeletons found themselves free in our midst, those skeletons caressed our children and spoke calmly with us. So, Serbs caressed the children of those who wrapped their homeland in black. Only now can we understand why our greatest poet, Goethe, studied the Serbian language. Only now can we comprehend why the last word for Bismark, on his deathbed, was — ‘SERBIA.’ That kind of victory is more sublime than any material victory. It seems to me that only the Serbs could win such a victory, being brought up in their St. Sava’s spirit and epic poetry, which our Goethe loved so much. This victory will live for centuries in the souls of us Germans. I want to dedicate my last clergyman’s sermon to that victory and the Serbs who won it.”
Your description of Serbs is absolutely spot on. We, Russians, always looked at you as our soul brothers. And no one was in more despear and anguish than Russians at the destruction of your country. Unfortunately, we were in no position to help at the time as we were fighting for our own survival.. You are a proud nation, something that is now a rarety in Eastern Europe, please hold on to it and don’t lose it. The quislings like Vucic are temporary inflictions, the soul of Serbia is well above such pathetic satraps.
Who are uchors (what kind of people which region ) thanks .
Vucic humiliated in Washington DC.
Djokovic humiliated in New York.
Serbia humiliated by another NATO bombing!
Wake up people.
Dear Eric, thank you for this interesting text.
However, I strongly believe that you went too far in the interpretation of this comma.
Simply said, both parties (Serbia and Kosovo) intend to work on improvements of the economical situation and other, for both parties, important questions.
If they really intended to say that Serbia will NEVER request any organization not to recognize Kosovo, that will be explicitly stated in the agreement. It will not be hidden behind one comma. I believe that both parties do not intend to use such tricks.
It is only fair interpretation that BOTH parties agree not to ‘fight’ for the SAME PERIOD of 1 year on the question of recognition of Kosovo, but to work on other matters instead.
If Serbia intended to make two agreements, one agreement for the period of 1 year and another agreement on an indefinite period, that would mean that there are in total 3 agreements (1 by Kosovo, and 2 by Serbia). However, the last sentence clearly specifies two agreements with “Both agreements…”. This is an additional confirmation that Serbia agreed only to ONE agreement, and that one agreement is limited to the period of 1 year.
Furthermore, please enter this sentence in Microsoft Word: “Serbia (Belgrade) will agree to a one-year moratorium of its de-recognition campaign, and will refrain from formally or informally requesting any nation or International Organization not to recognize Kosovo (Pristina) as an independent state.”. Word will suggest to delete the comma! Otherwise it is not clear to what “…will refrain…” refers to. Thus, this comma should be deleted/ignored.
For all of these reasons, I think it will be fair if you change your text accordingly. Do not take this message wrongly, actually I like your creativity, but you simply went too far.
Thanks in advance!
Kind regards from Serbs!
This makes sense, thank you very much for your contribution!
The agreement text is vague and open for interpretation
one year from now we will know the true meaning of the agreement :-)