by Eric Zuesse for The Saker Blog
1. The Dutch Government’s 279-page investigative findings on the “Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17” were published in October 2015, and reported, on
page 84, (under 2.13.2 “Crew autopsy”) that “First Officer Team A … During the body scan of the First Officer’s body, over 120 objects (mostly metal fragments) were detected. The majority of the fragments were found in left side of the upper torso.” Then, it reported, on
page 85 (under 2.13.3) “the First Officer, from Team A, who was operating the aeroplane at the time of the crash.”
(Note that they buried this crucial information, instead of saying clearly that “The pilot’s upper left torso, immediately to the left of the area of the fuselage that had been shot out, had 120 objects that were mostly metal fragments.”) (Here is a closer picture of that side-panel on the left side of the fuselage, to the pilot’s immediate left, and here is that side-panel shown back on the airliner, so that one can see that this firing had to have been done from below, shooting upward into the pilot.)
This crucial physical finding, that the pilot’s corpse had been loaded with “over 120 objects (mostly metal fragments),” is entirely consistent with the side-panel’s having been shot through by bullets, which would have been coming from a Ukrainian military jet and aimed upward, directly at the pilot. That marksman had to have been highly proficient in order to hit the pilot so accurately with so many bullets.
Nothing else was found to be shot through with anything like such an intensity of “mostly metal fragments,” but only the pilot’s upper left torso. This, alone, is virtually conclusive proof that a Ukrainian military jet plane had fired directly at the pilot in order to bring down this civilian plane. (More will be cited here, in #2 below.)
All of this evidence was entirely buried and ignored by the Dutch Government, revealed deep in the report, and only in sub-clauses, instead of in any direct sentences.
Furthermore: “There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machine-gun fire, very very strong machine-gun fire.” This remarkable statement comes not from Haisenko, but from one of the first OSCE investigators who arrived at the scene of the disaster. Go to
and you will see it. [But, now, it has been removed. Here is the information on that video. That video was titled “OSCE monitor mentions bullet holes in MH17”.]
That evidence is consistent with the Dutch Government’s having found (but buried) that the pilot’s corpse had been riddled with “metal fragments.”
Instead, the Dutch Government is charging Russia as having fired a Buk missile at the airliner and thus brought it down.
2. As I reported on 8 March 2020, under the heading “Why do the U.S. and its allies hide these facts from the public?”:
The latest are document-dumps and accompanying detailed explanations and translations of the revealed documents, and are from Bonanza Media. That’s a Finland-based website. Their “Bonanza Leaks” on 24 February 2020 shows photos of the official transcriptions of the witnesses’ testimony to the official Joint Investigative Team (JIT) which the U.S-allied Dutch Government operates in order to convict Russia for the shoot-down of the MH17 Malaysian airliner on 17 July 2014 above the civil-war zone in Ukraine. It includes an accompanying video presentation of these documents, from a day earlier, on February 23rd, titled “Bonanza Media LeaksTalk”. That video includes this: “Australian police confirm that these are authentic documents” (in response to Bonanza Media’s having supplied Australian police with the photos), and “these are original documents,” which their video shows. Then, they showed their documents to the JIT’s own office in Netherlands, which refused to comment. One document, from the Director of the Military Intelligence and Security Service of the Netherlands, to the public prosecutor of the National Prosecutor’s Office on Counter Terrorism, P.O. Box 395, 3000 AJ Rotterdam, dated 21 September 2016, opens (this being the official Dutch translation, but the original Dutch being also shown), “Herewith, I am informing, pursuant to Section 38 of the Intelligence and Security Services Act 2002, of data that is possibly of importance for the criminal investigation into the crashing of flight MH17.” After stating the evidence they had accumulated from witnesses and from allied-Government intelligence agencies, this document closes: “On this basis MIVD [Dutch military intelligence agency] draws the conclusion that from these two Russian ground based air systems near Rostov na Dona [the only two Russian bases that possibly would have been associated with the shoot-down of the MH17] no missile launch took place on 17 July 2014.” More information about the Bonanza Leaks disclosures can be found from the investigative journalist John Helmer in Moscow, headlining on February 25th, “NATO Military Intelligence Agencies Repeatedly Reported in Secret There Was No Evidence of a Russian Buk Missile in Eastern Ukraine or Firing on MH17”.
As I have documented on many occasions, even the JIT’s [‘Joint Investigative Team’s’] own ‘case’ against Russia, regarding the MH17 shoot-down, is founded upon and cites ‘evidence’ which actually disproves Russia’s involvement, and proves that this downing was instead a Ukrainian Government operation. As I said at that link, “U.S. President Barack Obama had become desperate for something to happen that would persuade German Chancellor Angela Merkel to endorse added sanctions against Russia regarding Ukraine, but I had had no idea, until now, as to what direct involvement, if any, he had had in the actual setting-up of the MH17 shoot-down.” But he has hardly been alone in this effort. Not only Barack Obama but also now Donald Trump are implicated in it — Trump for his continuing Obama’s guilt in it and cover-ups about it.
The U.S. is a bipartisan dictatorship. Is that opinion? It is all documented, in the links. This (like the U.S. Government’s having been behind Ukraine’s downing of the MH17) is therefore still news instead of history; but it remains news only because it still remains hidden in the U.S. and its allied regimes; it is NOT “opinion.” It will remain news as long as the U.S.-and-allied blackout of the evidence remains in effect. And the U.S. dictatorship has long been not only domestic but international as well, a dictatorship over what it calls its ‘allies’ and even over some countries which claim to to be ‘neutral’.
Another example of this international dictatorship is that the supposedly U.N.-authorized and not U.S.-controlled OPCW (Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons), which is really controlled by the U.S. Government, routinely lies when it needs to in order to protect the U.S. Government from being publicly revealed to have perpetrated an international war-crime.
Everything is consistent with the news-report that I initially published on the last day of 2018 and then updated on 9 January 2018, and which was titled “MH17 TURNABOUT: Ukraine’s Guilt Now PROVEN.” Among the proofs which were supplied there was that the evidence that the Dutch Government had supplied alleging to prove that a certain Buk missile and launcher, which they showed pictures of, was the specific system that had shot down the MH17, happened to display (though Ukraine seems not even to have noticed this) parts-numbers on them that happened to remain in Russia’s records ever since this equipment had been acquired by the Ukrainian state government in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (U.S.S.R.) back in 1986 immediately after having been manufactured in the Russian state, and had remained consistently in Ukraine’s air force and maintained by the Russian manufacturer ever since, so that if this equipment had shot down the MH17, then Ukraine’s Air Force (now under the national Ukrainian Government) would have shot down the MH17; Russia’s Air Force wouldn’t. The Dutch Government simply ignored this evidence that Russia supplied to them after Holland had blamed that specific equipment-set for having done this shoot-down, but promptly then abandoned its allegation that this equipment had been the specific system that shot down the MH17. That article also included a “missing BBC report” in which the BBC’s reporter Olga Ivshina appeared to have been shocked when locals in the area of the shoot-down all told her of having seen no missile at the time, but instead two Ukrainian jets rising toward the airliner right before that airliner descended from the sky. I concluded my report by saying, “Now, which major news-media in The West will report these solidly documented facts? Isn’t it time, finally, that they should start doing that? Or, do they have no honor, at all?” It’s a damning case against not only the U.S.-allied governments but their ‘news’-media, which still hide all of this crucial evidence from their respective publics. All of them war against their own publics. My report linked to all of this evidence, so that readers can see it for themselves.
3. And, finally, there is now a new report, on June 22nd, from the great independent Australian and American (dual-citizen) investigative journalist John Helmer, who lives in Moscow, headlining “HOW THE DUTCH PROSECUTION AND THE JUDGE HAVE RIGGED THE OUTCOME OF THE MH17 TRIAL ON A CHARGE THAT REQUIRES NO PROOF”. It is the coup de gras, against the Dutch Government, and against the entire U.S.-allied team, which in the MH17 case consisted of not only Holland but also Australia and also Belgium and also (and most especially) Ukraine (which latter country’s Government had intentionally shot down the MH17 so as to blame against Russia (as they are doing) in order to supply to Barack Obama an argument that Angela Merkel could use in order to rally her own country in support of greatly hiked anti-Russian sanctions so that the IMF would follow through with the the next multi-billion-dollar loan to Ukraine, in order for Ukraine to continue paying its soldiers in Ukraine’s ongoing war against its rebelling and now independent former region of Ukraine, Donbas, which area directly borders on Russia in Ukraine’s far east.
In February 2014, Obama had overthrown in a violent coup Ukraine’s democratically elected neutralist Government, which had been elected in 2010 and received around 90% of the vote in Donbas; so, Donbas declared its independence from Ukraine, and Obama and the IMF and the entire U.S. team were demanding Ukraine to conquer Donbas, which conquest needed money that Ukraine didn’t have but had to borrow. Obama’s plan had originally included to turn Russia’s largest naval base, which was located in Crimea, into a U.S. naval base. That part of his plan failed.
After Ukraine shot down the MH17, it demanded, and got (on 7 August 2014), from its then-three partners in the JIT, including Holland, absolute veto-power over any ‘findings’ that the team would publish. Initially, the team’s allegation was that Donbas separatists had shot down the plane, mistaking it for a Ukrainian military plane that was about to bomb them. Then it switched to blaming Russian soldiers. Then the ‘investigation’ just dragged on for years, trying to find evidence which might persuade enough of the public so as not to become an embarrassment. And, finally, as Helmer reports, the Dutch Government has prepared a criminal charge against Russia that reverts back again to blaming Russia for its having been supporting the separatists whose villages were being bombed by Ukraine, but which, in order to be able to impose penalties against Russia, is based upon no “case law that would be relevant to the issue.” This is a last-ditch effort, but it will be able to work if the Dutch judge is corrupt enough to accept it.
If you don’t already know these facts, then you’ve been getting your ‘news’ from lying media (such as the Washington Post), which aim to eliminate the media (such as this one) that have been reporting (instead of ignoring, or outright denying) these facts. This report is thus American samizdat.
Investigative historian Eric Zuesse is the author, most recently, of They’re Not Even Close: The Democratic vs. Republican Economic Records, 1910-2010, and of CHRIST’S VENTRILOQUISTS: The Event that Created Christianity.
Well done, damned nice report Mr. Zuesse !
I think it is clear that Mr. Obama wanted a NATO intervention to reach their objectives with the coup d’etat which seems to be annihilation of Novorussiya, a former Russian substate in Tsar-Russia. First it was dictatorially annexed into a newly formed Ukraine republic in 1921. Now it was to be destroyed for political objectives by
the zionist takeover of Ukraine.
It was clear from the beginning that the shootdown of MH-17 was a CIA/SBU/NATO/Blackwater/Kolomoisky Army activity ordered and cleared by the presidents of USA and Ukraine. Evidence of this started to come out the next day, it only took a little while to put all pieces together.
It is a disgrace that the official investigation was under NATO control, and that Ukraine had been handed a VETO over any findings. It is a typical zionist setup.
Another thing is that the Malaysian side was kept totally out and in the dark in every aspect of the investigation, and were not allowed to see the bodies for example of the pilots so they could not find out what really happened.
A lot of the tapes were edited but used by the investigation. Propaganda in the globalist corporate press were supposed to support or even suggest the false findings of the investigation team.
The Malaysian airliner was shot down by at least one Ukrainian SU-24 combat plane. Even the BBC initially reported this, and then hastily withdrew the report, which can be seen here:
The point is that the shooting down of that Malaysian airliner was an assassination attempt gone horribly wrong. The target was President Vladimir Putin’s plane, which had almost identical logo markings as the Malaysian airliner. The Ukrainian pilot who initially fired at the Malaysian airliner mistook it for President Putin’s plane, as both planes were in the same vicinity. The attack went as follows:
A Ukrainian SU-24 fired one AA missile at the Malaysian airliner, which struck the port side engine. The plane started to dive, after which the same Ukrainian pilot fired 30 mm armor piercing shells into the cockpit (there is a possibility that h was joined by one more Ukrainian SU-24). Original photos of the cockpit show entry and exit holes on both sides of the cockpit, which is proof that a cannon was used, as ball bearings from a BUK missile cannot cause entry and exit holes on both sides of the cockpit. The cockpit was subsequently patched up so that the 30 mm cannon holes could not be seen, after which new photographs of the cockpit were presented by the Dutch. The new photo’s are of course frauds.
Commentators have pointed out that a Ukrainian SU-24 could not have pulled off such an attack, since it is a light bomber and could not have reached the altitude of the Malaysian airliner. However, these commentators conveniently forget that an air to air missile has a range of 10 km, and that the SU-24 fired a missile from below upwards, hitting the port side engine. After the airliner started to fall, the SU-24 had the right altitude to instigate a cannon attack, the intent being to kill the pilots. As I stated above, this SU-24 was probably joined by one more SU-24.
After the event, a Russian news outlet published a photograph of the Ukrainian pilot who flew the SU-24. The pilot subsequently died in a traffic “accident”. On top of this, we had media reports of airline traffic controllers at Kiev’s airport, who noticed on their radars a number of aircraft in the vicinity of the Malaysian airliner. According to media reports, these traffic controllers were removed from their jobs.
And the conclusion ? Ukraine shot down the airliner, although it would not be fair to lay all the blame on Kiev. I doubt if Ukraine tried this assassination attempt on President Putin without foreign backing. According to reports I have heard over here where I live, the entire assassination attempt was supervised by NATO electronics experts, who on that occasion made a mess of the entire attempt. People might have noticed that after the downing of that Malaysian airliner, President Putin’s plane has applied navigational safety features – keeping a distance from NATO countries when not flying to a NATO country – and being escorted by combat planes.
The above link pertains to one of the photographs of the Malaysian airliners cockpit, showing 30 mm armor piercing cannon holes in the cockpit. An even better photograph of the cockpit exists, which alas I have not kept.
One more photograph showing 30 mm cannon holes in the cockpit of the Malaysian airliner.
Methink these are schrapnell impacts. Simply compare them with bullet impacts you will found on the Web.
Airplanes are made of very tough alloy. Try to bend just a 2 mm plate by hand. Never ever they show such an pattern by shooting bullets on it.
The reconstructed airplane confirms this.
The Rocket searches for radar reflections. Can you exclude the simple theory of mine that it’s radar search head has locked to the weather radar in the front cone?
Or maybe to reflections of mobile phone stations an the airplane hull?
There was a similar accident over the mediterrane sea where this rocket type founds an russian air freighter and shot it down.
Impossible without an design fail like this.
I know this is against every interests of any side. A simple stupid accident. What is if you are all wrong, can you handle it?
Schrapnell does not make round holes, but rather vertical, horizontal and diagonal cuts, which are always pretty rough. Numerous photographs have been published of the cockpit. The best published was the one which showed both entry and exit holes on both sides of a cockpit, something that can only be done with cannon fire.
B.F. You think a shrapnell @ 30 000 km / h will stuck in the alloy hull? And a bullets that travels through the atmosphere before impact was?
Methink this is simples the same bullshit as the whole article is. I do not understand why the autor is able to ignore simple laws of physic as some commenters do.
The dutch investigstion is consistent in the underlying facts but fu***ing propaganda in the conclusions. Same dirt as anything in western propaganda
This schrapnell cuts can be seen on the fotos. Entry and exit cuts instead of holes exist too.
Caused on the speed of shrapnells (imo 30000 km/h after warhead explosion) there is no bending of the cut edges. Everything that travelled at lower speeds and slows down in the atmosphere must produce them.
However, maybe the aircraft was shot down by an martian ufo with unknown impact pattern, there was no cannon in the game.
The dutch report in the scientific (or forensic) part is consistent and congruent to all what was known before. Surely the conclusions are nothing more than as…….ing to NATO/OTAN interests.
And funny too, the russians moving a lot of 30 tons trucks through the ukrainian landscape, fires a rocket on a malyasian aircraft and return the same way. Unseen and without any traces.A story designed for heavy lobotomy box (aka TV) users and likely possible than the above mentioned ufo
I don’t know why the saker publishes such an BS article. This site starts tbe the same waste of time as the whole antirussian western media bullshit.
Methink the design flaw – i suspect in my former post – of the anti aircraft weapon was known before and ignored by all parties, the russian producer too. This explains the erratical behavior of all of them much better. This is speculation only but mit more evidence than any bullet BS.
The blame for this mess lies squarely with the Malaysians. Anyone with half a brain would have long ago concluded that it was the Ukrainians that shot this plane down.
There was/is ample evidence from the ground locals and other sources. Yet the Malaysians sit quietly and allow this shitshow to continue. Their behavior is typical of all the western vassals. Mahathir Mohammed only went as far as saying that it was not Russia and that there was an attempt to frame her. Fullstop.
Why not call out Ukraine and all the criminals trying to protect her.
“It is a disgrace that the official investigation was under NATO control, and that Ukraine had been handed a VETO over any findings.”
One of the opponent’s purposes in attempting to “maintain the myth of hegemony” is to attempt to encourage others to conflate thinking/emoting and/or replace thought by emotion predicated on disgust and stress catalysts in different social relations..
The tactics used in such attempts are immersed in the “initiators interpretations” of disgust and stress catalysts in different social relation, which in some social relations these “interpretations” are in large part, though “exceptionalism” deeming others to be of lesser interest/significance thereby undermining the initiators’ facility in the matter, projections of disgust and stress catalysts prevalent in the initiators’ social relations.
Consequently not all perceived that “”It is a disgrace that the official investigation was under NATO control, and that Ukraine had been handed a VETO over any findings.” – some perceived that as a land of opportunities facilitated in part by the opponents given the divergence of disgust and stress catalysts in different social relations; a view which was substantiated by testing the hypotheses.
The opponents regularly afford such opportunities examples including but not restricted to evangelising “exceptionalism”, “full spectrum dominance”, “hegemony” and “there-is-no-alternativeness”.
Not all including some Malaysians are/were immersed in binaries, and hence the “initiators” attempt/choice of tactics of “Another thing is that the Malaysian side was kept totally out and in the dark in every aspect of the investigation, and were not allowed to see the bodies for example of the pilots so they could not find out what really happened.” in furtherance of wider beliefs/hopes/wishes misrepresented as purposes/strategies best r
did not achieve their hoped/wished outcomes/purpose, since when faced with “binary choices”, including but not restricted to “our way or the highway”, in cooperation with others, some chose lateral options predicated in part on patience, which were “introduced” in the initial MH17 meeting in Moscow.
Well it looks like the “court” has postponed the hearing till 2021:
Take from that what you will…….
“Take from that what you will…”
Some social relations emphasise taking, some emphasise giving, and some emphasise co-operation.
The Mitchell Institute think tank based in Melbourne has published a report calling for an increase of us air force strategic bombers fleet to I quote “strike deep into russia and china”. According to the think tank the us air force should have 386 strategic bombers in active service in order to strike with enough missiles to neutrelise chinese and russian air defense and counter strike capabilities.
This is the mind set of what I call the western union. So the fact that a us puppet government lies about the MH-17 to blame russia doesn t surprise me at all. I was expecting that. MH-17 is a part of the full spectrum aggression against russia and then china the western union has started since 2014.
This is the link of the article I read:
I live in Melbourne for 9 years until last year. The delusions there are total. Whether it is the fake Global Warming, the CO2 nonsense, windmills, solar farms, coal, nuclear power, electric cars, Immigration and much else besides. But this Mitchell Institute report is a whole new step in this delusion.
Do they seriously think the Russians and Chinese won’t retaliate? Does Australia have any air defenses worth counting?
How many nuclear bombs can Melbourne withstand?
Anyone watch “On the Beach”? It was filmed in Melbourne in a saner age.
There are different ways to explain this report. It may be a call to increase military expenditures to increase the profit of private military firms of the west. It may me a provocation to make both russia and china increase their military expenditures. It may be a call to unite the western countries against what the western elite sees a its main adversaries. It is certainly a part of the full spectrum aggression the west has initiated several years ago. The us decision to pull out from INF treaty and open skies treaty follows the same logic.
I think that a part of the western elite thinks that they are superior to anybody and that whatever they do at the end they will win. They think they have superior culture, superior technology, superior moral values, superior military etc. They think they can not be defeated they can not lose. It s a real danger because when people think in that way they always make bad decisions. I am 100% sure that nazi germany decided to attack the soviet union during WW2 mainly because they thought they were superior. They believed in their own propaganda: they overestimated their capabilities and at the same time they underestimated the capabilities of the soviet union. In my mind a rational german commander would have never decided to attack the soviet union. We are seeing the same thing today.
Many people in charge of western countries have started to believe their own propaganda. This is very dangerous. I think that it s not a coincidence if the chinese say that pompeo is a new goebels and that pompeo actions are putting world peace at risk. You can find the specific article on global times, a chinese media.
China and russia are not blind. They see the clearly hostile activities of the west and they prepare themselves. Again, I think it s not a coincidence if russia decided to change its nuclear doctrine. Now if the russian government obtains informations regarding an imminent strategic attack against the russian territory, an attack which could destroy the russian military capability to reteliate, russia will attack first using its nuclear capalities. This a clear result of western pressure and threats. Tensions have been continuously on the rise and now I really think that a war could happen. Putin s last statement about WW2 is very revealing.
Remember that Obama said “Ukraine was Biden’s thing”. Uner the US set up the Vice President runs covert operations, while the president knows little of the details. If the operation fails, this way the President can pardon the Vice President. Since CIA chief Brennan is a cowardly bureaucrat, I think it is 99% probable that Joe Biden gave the shoot down order for MH17,
Thank you, Eric Zuess, for that bazooka bomshell from Bonanza Media. So the Royal Dutch Shell owned Dutch are too cowardly to piep out a question: What are all those unnamed “metal fragments” found in the pilot’s body?
Dutch children used to sing: “Skande! skande voor Engeland”. That scandal was in 1898 when an Anglo Zio Capitalist army was genociding not only “black” Bantu Africans but also and especially “white” Dutch Africans (the Afrikaaners, including women and children) in British concentration camps.
After this explosive report, let the Dutch now sing: “Skande! Skande voor NederLands”. It might wipe some of the smugness off their Royal Dutch comfort, and some of the self righteousness off their prosecutors at the Hague Court of International Criminals.
This is a headline from RT :
“It’s Israel’s CHOICE whether to annex West Bank, Pompeo proclaims”
Its obvious that the US is being governes by a bunch of spineless Zionist bootkissers.
Guys like Pompeo and Trump wilt infront of Zionists with their insatiable appetite for death and destruction that run counter to US national interests.
How do you make America great again when you continue to extend “unconditional support” to your Zionist overlords who are hellbent on fighting the entire MidaEast region to the last American?
America is bogged down in Afghanstan,
Tied up in Syria
Languishing in Iraq and wasting away in the Gulf
All because US politicians are afraid to cut the albatross called Israel loose.
The die has been cast, America’s decline and ruin is unstoppable, because successive administrations have failed to stand up to Israel.
Americans are suckers for a good Abrahamic religious story line. You are correct, it will prove to be our undoing.
…”is entirely consistent with the side-panel’s having been shot through by bullets”
… “There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machine-gun fire, very very strong machine-gun fire.”
Aircraft of the Ukrainian air force (MiG-29, Su-27, Su-25) are not armed with machine guns furring bullets. They are armed with 30mm automatic canons firing 30mm in diameter shells. Shells that explode on impact in to fragments (or after impact if armor piercing):
Impact holes of machine gun, with bullets maximum 0.7-1.2mm in diameter are completely different from impact holes of 30mm canon with exploding shells.
Machine gun bullets are usually in the range of 12.5 mm plus. Up to 23 mm are considered machine guns by some authorities. Auto cannons are usually 30 mm plus. Different nations have different interpretations, but my .50″ BMG was definitely considered a machine gun.
@Arras and Steven. Thank you for the details. So, those deliberately vague “fragments of metal in the pilot’s body”: are they fragments of 15mm shells from a machine gun or are they fragments of 30mm bullets from a machine cannon? The terms “bullet” and “shell” are interchangeable in automatic weapons of these dimensions; as are the words “gun” and “cannon”. Should not be hard to identify the origin. Not to have asked that question is either criminal negligence or criminal concealment of evidence by the Dutch investigating team; send those Dutch officials to the Hague for trial.
Where are the Malaysian pilots bodies buried? They can be exhumed and the remaining fragments in their bodies can be examined for evidence at the Hague.
In fact that Ukrainian pilot fired 30 mm armor piercing shells into the cockpit of the airliner after he fired one AA missile, which struck the port side engine of the aircraft.
Machine guns are usually 5mm – 12.5mm. Canons usually start at 20mm (shell have to be large enough to carry explosive inside).
Generally speaking, machine gun fires non exploding solid bullets while canons fire explosive shells. Although there are exceptions. But that’s besides the point. Point is, Ukrainian aircraft that could shot MH17 down have 30mm canons equipped and those have very different impact holes from any machine gun.
Machine pistols are usually in the range of 5.5 to 9 mm. Machine guns 12.5 mm plus. Auto cannons 20 mm plus. All depending on the nation and interpretation. You used measurements that were 10% of the intended, please correct your original, or you are merely obscuring the comments.
The comments about machine guns came from OSCE officials who may not be ballistic experts. I personally think that the whole JIT was a witch hunt, but everyone needs to be accurate.
Just have a look at the cockpit panel and compare the bullet holes to the heads of bolts in the panel. Definitely 30 mm canon fire did cause this damage.
The report of the JIT doesn’t make sense. Everyone knows that. (At least everyone that has been paying attention.) However, it doesn’t do any good to write nonsense about machine gun or cannon fire from another aircraft creating the damage to the cockpit area of MH-17. It obfuscates the truth.
It’s just not plausible to get that many rounds, with that CEP, into such a target, given the necessary geometry. The type aircraft that was “alleged” to have made the attack (SU-25) has a critical mach number a little lower than the cruising speed of the Boeing. In other words, it can’t fly fast enough to do what is suggested. Alternately, it would have had to be in an optimum position very close to the Boeing and at an altitude close to its service ceiling, and then fire many rounds exactly on target, while in a relatively tight turn. That sequence of miracles is just not plausible.
Furthermore, the manufacturer of the BUK missile system did a full scale test which showed that all the damage to the aircraft was consistent with a BUK attack. This included remarkable details, specifically, some penetrations matched projectile cross sections. In other words, a BUK destroyed MH-17.
Why complicate a simple story?
@44360: “Furthermore, the manufacturer of the BUK missile system did a full scale test which showed that all the damage to the aircraft was consistent with a BUK attack. This included remarkable details, specifically, some penetrations matched projectile cross sections. In other words, a BUK destroyed MH-17.”
If I remember correctly the Saker posted that report; and the manufacturers verified that the holes were consistent with a BUK model that was obsolete in Russia but used by the Ukrainian army. In other words, a _Ukrainian_ BUK destroyed MH-17. (Subject to correction by readers better able to interpret the manufacturers report.)
This does not alter Dutch official vagueness about “fragments of metal” in the pilot’s body. Were they ammunition from an automatic weapon or were they shrapnel from a BUK missile. And if a BUK, which model? The Dutch failure to ask such obvious questions necessarily puts the Dutch “investigators” of WH17 into the same criminally negligent category as the U$ so-called “investigators” who failed to test for thermite in the rubble of WTC911.
@Dr.M: Any projectiles, either from a BUK warhead or any other weapon, were going far too fast to be stopped by the aircraft skin or a human body. The fragments of metal are surely pieces of the aircraft skin (or other structure). It’s hard to imagine otherwise.
As to the ownership of the BUK missile, sometime after the fact, a section of the missile containing the serial numbers was found in the area. Russia subsequently produced copies of records which documented its transfer to Ukraine. So, yes, it was a Ukrainian BUK.
The **only** explanation that is consistent with **all** the known facts (not just those reviewed here) is that MH-17 was destroyed by a Ukrainian BUK. Other theories are simply disinformation or fantasies.
@44360: “Any projectiles, either from a BUK warhead or any other weapon, were going far too fast to be stopped by the aircraft skin or a human body.”
Yes, a good point, fast enough to pierce the aircraft skin on one side and exit on the other; and I believe a symmetrical entry-exit pattern was observed and attributed to high velocity bullets (or shells, same thing different diameter). But on second look at the photos recovered by readers on this thread, I think you are right on both counts: the “writing” of the holes is not reminiscent of a moving line of identical size bullet holes from a rapid machine gun; and the number of holes is far too large.
Which brings us back to the Russian manufacturer’s detailed report and tests. I now remember, they explained that a BUK missile is designed to fragment _before_ impact, thus spraying the target with a very large number of jagged fragments of varying size and shape. Do I remember correctly? Fragmentation of a high-velocity missile by a proximity fuse triggered a short distance before impact with the target — yes, that would produce the pattern in the photos.
I am glad you remember other evidence from the Russian side, not only serial numbers but careful analysis of size and shape distribution of the entry holes, which prompted me to point out your omission of one telling word, on which we are now agreed: “So, yes, it was a Ukrainian BUK.”
Of course there may have been gunfire from a Ukrainian fighter plane as well. NATZO’s Joint Investigation Team has been criminally careless in their failure to preserve all the evidence from the wreckage and from the bodies. Or rather, it seems to me, they have copied Mayor Giuliani and other 911 Officials of the Bush regime, in being careful to rid the crime scene of evidence.
False flag events almost invariably have inbuilt redundancies, more than one method. This has a dual purpose- more likelihood of success, assure that conspiracy theorists (i.e. anyone using logic and critical thinking who questions the official narrative) will end up arguing amongst themselves:
Whether JFKs assassin(s) were on the grassy knoll, in the stormwater drain by the motorcade, whether Oswald was/was not involved.
Whether RFK was shot by Sirhan Sirhan under MKULTRA mind control or by the secret service agents behind him or both.
Whether the WTC towers came down via mini-Nukes in basements, nanothermite controlled demolitions, directed energy weapons or all 3.
I think the initial BBC report with villagers’ testimonies (which I recall seeing at time) and everything else Zuesse reports) indicate Ukrainian fighter jets involved. But also might have been the Ukrainian BUK.
Both weaponry achieved goal.
Goal of having us arguing over methods achieved.
What I did hear from a friend in Canberra a year or so after MH17 was downed (albeit hearsay and I was not and would never be told name of their source) is someone they knew in government had seen secret documents indicating (as reported as verbatim by my friend): “We (Australian people) are not being told what really happened” (to MH17).
That’s the world we live in folks. A world of secrets securely guarded, a controlled media and still too many ‘sheeple’.
44360: “That sequence of miracles is just not plausible.”
I can interject here that i read sometime after the downing of MH17, this topic arose and a Russian pilot stated that the SU25 has the ability to gain additional speed above its maximum for a short burst…. but read the former comments: if a missile is fired, it extends the range of speed and distance…
i also recall eyewitnesses on the ground mentioning they saw two Ukrainian jets near the civilian airliner…they complained at the time that their voluntary disclosures were being ignored by investigators…
Su-24 can easily fly at the same altitude and is supersonic.
So, are we talking about an Su-25 ground attack subsonic aircraft or an actual ’60s era fighter very much like the F-111 capable of air-to-air combat?
Analyst, you are likely conflating normal thrust limited speed with critical mach number.
Critical mach number, for an aircraft wing that is not designed to fly trans-sonic, is that mach number at which the wing doesn’t work properly anymore. There can be various problems, the usual first indication is mach buffet. In other words, if you fly too fast the aircraft shakes like hell and becomes unstable. This would not be a good gun platform, to say the least.
The key thing to understand is that for the SU-25 the critical mach number is somewhat less than the Boeing’s cruising speed. Wrap your head around that, and then try to explain how an SU-25 could accurately converge on a B-777 and fire many, extraordinarily accurate cannon rounds into the left side and exiting the right side of the Boeing. And then try to explain how the other damage (elsewhere) to the aircraft came about. You can’t make the relative flight geometry work. It is very clear that MH-17 was not hit by cannon fire from a SU-25. (Or if it was it was relatively inconsequential.)
This is not to say that there was not one or more SU-25s in the vicinity. And indeed, an SU-25 might be able to be armed with some flavor of air to air missile. But the damage done to MH-17 was not consistent with an air to air missile. The damage was caused by a much heavier, much more powerful warhead, like a BUK warhead. In fact, the damage is completely consistent with a BUK warhead, as demonstrated by the full scale test the manufacturer performed. Why people persist in contriving preposterous models of what hit MH-17 strikes me as disinformation intended to distract and confuse.
It seems more productive to examine the possible reasons why MH-17 was destroyed exactly when and where it was. What was the tactical situation on the ground at the time? Where would the wreckage have landed if MH-17 had not made that left turn when it was hit? (There is evidence that the left engine lost thrust and the right engine continued operating, which turned the aircraft until it started structurally failing.)
The Su-24 certainly can reach the airliner altitude. I thought we were talking about the Su-24 which is like the F-111, and not the Su-25 which is strictly a ground attack aircraft, armored, not supersonic, and not high altitude.
What is undeniable is that the butterfly shaped shrapnel from Russian BUK missiles is not represented in that side cockpit damage. Or the older BUK shrapnel.
I don’t know what happened but an Israeli modified SU-25 or equivalent coming indirectly from Georgia with a Python 4 or 5 missile is still a possibility and let’s not get into the maximum altitude of an SU-25 -the Python has a range of 15-20 kms. The obvious cover-up and inconsistencies just reinforce that.
Precisely. The Ukranian aircraft would have served to positively idenitify the aircraft to the ground radar crew whilst their IFF would protect them from a missile strike. To get anywhere near, the Su-25s would have to have minimum payload and fuel. They might feasibly carry one air-to-air missile each (one as fallback in case of a first miss) but not much more. It would still be very risky, and if MH-17 survived, the story would have been exposed by aircrew and passenger witnesses.
Some of the bodies, including the flight crew, passed through Ukranian hands after recovery. There would have been plenty of opportunity for a few ‘butterfly’ fragments to be placed inside the wounds of the pilots.
Over a year ago, I saved a photo to disk. I can no longer find it on the internet. Maybe it is still there but I could not find it.
Here is the smaller version:
Here is the full-size version
I hope you find that useful. I am no expert in these things.
That’s definitely not “machine gun like”. Machine gun bullets leave nice round holes in metal plates:
These holes are made by some fragments. Whether from a BUK missile or 30mm canon I can’t tell.
What is interesting on that picture is that some holes seems to have edges bent outward while others inside. That would suggest fragments flying in different directions through the plate. Which would suggest that they did not came from a single explosion. Which would speak for 30mm and against the BUK. However I can’t exclude that some might have been made by pieces of the aircraft itself once it exploded and disintegrated, therefore I wouldn’t exclude BUK either.
Just by coincidence on that very day, within the hour, Vladimir Putin’s Presidential jet flew from the south west across Ukraine on its way back from Rio de Janeiro to Moscow.
Maybe not so coincidental, eh?
When the Ukrainian ex-fighter pilot, Captain Vladislav Voloshin, got out of the plane, he was stunned. He said, “It was a different plane.” When asked what had happened to the plane, he replied, “The plane was in the wrong place at the wrong time.” All attempts at further conversation were stopped immediately.
…Voloshin may have been involved in the shooting down of the Malaysian passenger plane just under four years ago over Ukraine, in which almost 300 people died. According to the Ukrainian police, the 29-year-old ex-pilot took his own life. Before that, however, investigations had been initiated against him for “premeditated murder”.
Almost four years after the shooting down of the Malaysian passenger plane MH 17 has been killed. The Ukrainian police speak of suicide. (March 2018)
Great work once again, Eric. I got so tired of arguing this case back in the day that I finally gave up and concluded – just as the Zionists know oh so well – that the sheeple will believe whatever they’re told as long as it fits the exceptionalist story line, facts be damned. Chalk it up to just one more atrocity that the ZioNazi’s got away with, for now at least. Let me see now, there’s OKC, 9-11, Iraqistan and the whole Global War of Terror thing, the Ukraine putsch, the financial crashes of 2008 and 2020, the Boston Marathon, London, and Paris bombings, more mass shootings than anyone even bothers to keep track of anymore, MH-17, and now CV-19, just to name a few of the highlights. Quite a record these criminals are piling up! One can only wonder how long it can go on. Good thing we’ve got #BLM and #MeToo to take our minds off things!
The thing is CV-19 might be the end game:
Aaron Russo: Nick Rockefeller told him the globalist elites “want humanity chipped”:
James Corbett does a detailed documentary on this:
Witney Webb exposes DARPA nano-vaccine neural control of lab animals and research to enhance control of ‘super soldiers’ through neural nanotechnology ‘vaccines’:
Sci-Fi dystopian present.
When the MH17 shoot-down happened all those years ago –
1. The photo of the cockpit fragment with its beautiful twin line of bullet holes convinced me beyond any doubt that MH17 was shot down by another aircraft. Any other line of argument was just smoke and mirrors.
2. The excellent, very professional, on-site investigation by the BBC reporter left absolutely no doubt that two Ukrainian jets shot MH17 down. That video report was almost immediately removed by the BBC, but I got myself a copy. The BBC has clearly been subverted,so I now ignore the BBC entirely.
3. The complicity of the Australian government in this crime, despite the sacrifice of its own citizens and the objections of its own investigators, demonstrates Australia’s complete vassalage to the USA. Democracy my arse.
Yes, that Malaysian airliner was indeed shot down by at least one Ukrainian SU-24, possibly by two. However, I have to correct you. Modern combat planes do not use machine guns, something that was used by planes in the Second World War. Modern planes use AA missiles and cannon, either 20 mm or 30 mm cannon, which fire high explosive shells, incendiary shells and armor piercing shells. The cockpit of that Malaysian airliner was struck by 30 mm armor piercing shells, which some commentators have mistaken for aircraft machine gun bullets, which now do not exist.
A number of the videos Zuesse links to have already been removed.
So glad we have free speech.
The deleted video is here
Come on, why can’t these congenital liars and utter slobs try out some other tacks? There are at least two ”interesting alternatives” to consider here:
a) MH-17 was downed by Ukrainian planes staffed with ”Kremlin agents” in direct communication with Vladimir Putin who was travelling in the very same airspace. Putin is evil and knew of course what he was doing.
b) It was Putin — in person — who delivered ”air combat” from his plane which was passing through the same airspace as MH-17. Putin is evil and knew of course what he was doing.
Should any person/s in the JIT read this post and decide that the proposition/s herein is/are the final word, I humbly demand a remuneration to the tune of Ukraine’s annual GNP and that Nussiminen be thanked emphatically for having solved the issue. Done deal?
At least someone is paying attention. MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian airforce SU25 fighter and covered up by Western criminal governments. UN/NATO/EU are all international criminal organisations.
I could never work out why MH17’s course was deviated over a war zone. Now i know it was so that NATO could occupy the Donbass. Cold blooded premeditated mass murder, NATO purposely shot down MH17 as a cover to place 9000 troops in the Donbass.
The leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments.
The Malaysian Government also revealed how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea.
It was revealed that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them. The Malaysian operation, revealed by the Malaysian Army colonel who led it, eliminated the evidence for the camouflage story, reinforcing the German Government’s opposition to the armed attack, and forcing the Dutch to call off the invasion on July 27.
Why was MH17 altitude reduced? For the record the SU25 manufacturers have indicated that a variant of the SU25 sold to Ukraine can operate at the height levels that MH17 was reduced to, that of course is the point in asking why the decrease in altitude, ie to make it within strike range of the variant SU25 sold to Ukraine.
For the damage to occur on the left side of MH17 (as it flies) it is impossible for the damage to occur as it has if it was BUK missile fired from the location indicated, ie the JIT report is complete fiction.
Also why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held regions just before the tragedy? Especially considering that the self-defense forces have no planes. Also on the day of the crash Kiev intensified Kupol-M1 9S18 radar activity, key BUK targeting system components. Where they providing targeting information to the SU-25’s?
For more aspects of how the MH-17 was downed some of you may be interested to read the Saker interview with Max van der Werff. That is Max van der Werff with introduction and afterword by the Saker.
So this is obviously not Saker’w own presentation of events which is https://thesaker.is/mh-17-one-year-later/
The comments sections are well worth reading in both cases.
I have tried to quantify a complex theory based on known facts of involved forces in the conflict.
Kolomoisky army trained on a Buk battery. (Decoy?) Involved in ATC directing the MH-17. A BUK however exercised in the area and may have left a used BUK shell on the ground. It may also have been left by an alleged Kolomoisky unit, or if the two are the same. Fact is that the Buk shell has been recovered and used by JIT as evidence of a BUK shootdown.
Blackwater involved in a hot war against Donbass. Formally a part of pres. Barack Obama forces special operations.
CIA involved in desinformation and active operations. Formally a part of pres. Barack Obama’s forces.
A possible scenario involves Blackwater operating in Ukraine as a high value target being defended by 3 Ukrainian Su-25. Actually the SU-25 had been operationg special mission for one week leading up to the shootdown of MH-17 involving use of AAMs. On that very day 3 SU-25 took off from its base, and one of them were loaded with AAM’s air-to-air missiles which is usually R-60.
There are different scenarios that may have taken place but those ends with at least one SU-25 diverted to counter an active threat that had shot down the other Su-25’s while over the protection area. How they were shot down is part of the theory.
The end of story is hat eventually only of Su-25 returned to base, and according to witness the pilot was visibly shaken to the bones and did not reply to any questions from ground crews.
Blackwater have access to highly advanced weaponry but in Ukraine they were likely using Humvee’s. The little known fact is that specialized versions of Humvees are equipped for support of high value targets with AIM-9x anti aircraft missiles. They were used in Iraq by US military units. Based on other witness accounts a Su-25 shot down MH-17. But why would they do it as it would amount to very serious warcrimes against civilians, a crime against humanity ?
They had become wilified and received false information. How?
So Blackwater may have shot down one or two of the SU-25, and ukrainian mil radar reported an unknown hostile aircraft approaching.
At least one Su-25 climb to confront the aircraft since one have been equipped with AAM’s for defence against enemy aircraft. Climbing up beneeth the intruder aircraft the pilot get into range and fired two AAM’s at the target. One of the AAM’s get within range of the radar antenna in the front of the aircraft and the internal radio fuse goes off to the left side of the cockpit.
The SU-25 pilot fires his machine cannon into the aircraft as well to make sure it is no further threat. The Su-25 enter into hot pursuit.
Witnesses observed at least one Su-25 in hot pursuit of the large aircraft which turned out to be MH-17 and may have caused a massive explosion in the air probably caused by hitting the wingsections and explode the fuel that caused the breakup of the aircraft before crashing into the ground. Bullet holes from the machine cannon can be seen in the wreckage, and it also proves that it was fired before the ground impact crash because of missing trajectory caused by impact.
And why such an element as Blackwater is involved relies on the unlikelyhood of a Ukrainian military fighter pilot shooting down a civilian aircraft, and the loss of 2 Su-25 while operating in Ukraininan Army controlled area.
The basis for such a theory is the ground crew witness at SU-25 base. In any case there is a clear individual case for the Su-25 theory since the fragments in the MH-17 do not come from a BUK according to the manufacturer, it may come from a much smaller missile.
The SU-25 pilot involved died in a suspicious suicide at home. Two other pilots. The ukrainian state covered up the missions and loss of aircrafts.
The ground crew escaped to Russia after discovering he had been ordered to the frontlines in Donbass !
Yes, that was the part that the Western group of investigators conveniently left behind at the scene and chose not to use as evidence of the plane’s downing.
The investigators also lied that the Russians would not let them into the area of the plane crash.
Before all that, there was a fake recording distributed by the MSM which was used to pin the blame on some Russian peasants who were reported to have fired the surface to air missile claimed by the West to have downed the aircraft. The recording shown by the MSM apparently showed the date as being a day earlier than the crash. Go figure!
Is Russian tv reporting on the trial with indepth and critical analysis….if so ….can anyone summarise for us …if so thank you.
Excellent article again by Eric Zuesse.
I do think though that Trump cannot afford to start blaming Obama for this at present while indictments for Obama’s seditious and treasonous deeds are being prepared. Perhaps after the elections it will come up again when Biden’s role has become clear too.
One little thing: “Holland” is not a country: there are two provinces (out of 13) called North and South Holland, but the country is called “Nederland” in Dutch and on the passports the full name is the United Kingdom of the Netherlands (Verenigd Koninkrijk der Nederlanden). In official bodies one always refers to it as “The Netherlands” (United were the provinces into a Kingdom and by 1813 it was independent from Napoleon).
Like so many events, it will hardly ever be resolved, just as JFK’s death remains unresolved, even though links to CIA, LBJ, Crime Syndicates and Mossad have been unearthed (the latter especially by Piper in his book Final Judgment where he points out how happy Ben-Gurion was and could immediately receive huge sums of money form LBJ to build his arsenal of nukes (impossible while JFK was there). So another half century for MH17 to be believed by some more people?
Well, the Dutch are the people who broke a time-honoured practice whereby if a nation was kind enough to lend you precious artefacts for an event, you always returned them. They accepted delivery of golden – pure gold Scythian ornaments and artefacts for an exhibition – from Crimea – then refused to return them after Crimea voted in peaceful democratic plebiscite to rejoin the Motherland. They are still holding onto them.
I used to know a gentleman while i lived in Adelaide S.A. who had been in the Danish underground during WWII – or so he claimed, and I have no reason to disbelieve him, especially as he gave me a piece of advice on getting out of a threatening situation that was to save me a terrible fate years later.
He disliked the Dutch immensely, from his personal interactions with many of them. He would say of them “There are people, and then – shrug, sigh, and say regretfully – the Dutch”. He claimed many would say the same across the nations of True Europe.
So – we shouldn’t be surprised I guess. Message is – tread warily when dealing with them, and never turn your back.
What an utterly narrow minded, ignorant and disreputable manner of summing up any country at all ! Do you actually think always, before you write ?
Thank you for a courteous reply to personal point of view.
It is after all so fashionable these days
“You have said something I disagree with. HOW DARE YOU!!
It’s called the Greta response.
In fact, all I did, if you are capable of reading critically, is to [a] report a fact which their refusal to honour an honour agreement and return something to s owners, and [b] repeat an opinion told to me of THEIR point of view, not mine necessarily.
Do you actually read and think always, before you comment.
From the days of William of Orange, the Dutch have been under the control of the money lenders. They were the first of the tools for them.
I can’t decipher this clearly. Was the gentleman saying that
(A) many Dutch would say this about the nations of True Europe (whatever that is supposed to define), or
(B) many people in Europe would say this about the Dutch?
Thanks. (BTW I am not really one for prejudice against any nationality; I’m just asking.)
My understanding joey_n is that he claimed that other people in Europe in would say this about the Dutch.
Whether they do or not, I have no idea.
I doubt it; if what he said were true, then Dutch-made products would not be popular outside of the Netherlands, let alone within the rest of Europe. Among the last things one would want to do is bite the hand that feeds him/her.
The paradox: such honest people, the Dutch; and yet, why was the Scythian gold not returned to owner? Such plain speaking people, the Dutch; and yet, where is the open Parliamentary debate into an Israeli passenger plane smuggling chemical weapons into Scheephol labeled as perfume? Law-Abiding and Freedom Loving people, the Dutch; and yet, why were a greater percentage of Jews genocided in Holland than in other countries that were under Nazi occupation?
Find the answer to those questions, and you might get Pamela’s drift — even though she has not expressed her feelings with modern Political Correctness. It’s about what we mean when we say that someone good is ‘a mensch’ (or ‘ubuntu’ a human), about what we mean by ‘have a heart’, and the so-called Banality of Evil, a concept which modern theorists have conjured up to explain Administrative Criminality of the kind we see in this Dutch report.
“Evil is not banal” — Karl Popper
Old Kiwi joke:
What is the definition of a good pom (englishman)?
One who goes back to England and takes two dutchmen with them.
My personal observation is that they are no better or worse than any other nationality.
Helmer’s reporting on this matter is absolutely first class. The Australian media’s effort has been all arse.
eagle eye: “My personal observation is that they are no better or worse than any other nationality.”
Mine too. On this thread “Dutch” stands for a NATZO-subservient Netherlands Administration issuing an unjust report in the name of the Dutch people.
“Not in my name” — protest of a million Britishers against their sheep-slaughtering, Serbian slaughtering, Iraqi-slaughtering, Rothschild-serving TB.Liar Administration.
The Beatles re-interpreted by MSM:
In the town where Czars were born
Lived a man who was so mean
And he gloated and he laughed
At flight MH dash Seventeen
So he flew under the sun
Till a BUK at last was clearly seen
And he ordered it to fire
Right at MH dash Seventeen
||: Putin ended flight MH Seventeen
MH Seventeen, MH Seventeen :||
Bottom line: MH-17 was ended by BUK and by crook, QED.
I think the R-60 can be ruled out by the following considerations:
“Considering that Soviet practice was to manufacture most air-to-air missiles with interchangeable IR-homer and semi-active radar homing seekers, NATO speculated that there might have been a SARH version of the ‘Aphid.’ However, it is clear that the small size of the ‘Aphid’ makes a radar-homing version with an antenna of reasonable size impractical, and no such weapon appears to have been contemplated.”
Also a 3 kg warhead is inconsistent with the observed damage. That is why I prefer the Python air-air
The R-60 has been manufactured in different versions. There are different warheads available. Some signs of the rods have been found visibly on the right wing and a rod was found in the wreckage allegedly but not as far as I know acknowledged by the JIT, but by russian or ukrainian sources . The infrared seeker is standard (heatseaking ). But the fuse is completely a different story. It is obviously the thing that makes the missile explode. R-60 has two different fuses, both an impact fuse and a radio fuse. The missile will explode either by impact hitting the target, or by radio (radar) proximity fuse meaning it will explode if it comes within 5m of a an active radar or radiotransmission at the target. I have not read all the details as to what frequency band or signal strength will set it off. A different warhead may cause patterns like in the left cockpit area. There are signs of two missile strikes but the wing area strike has not been focused on by JIT at all as far as I know, but JIT is not where I am looking for information, that is clearly a false unit.
If I could chose theory I would also favour a 9kg warhead similar to the R-73. But there were witnesses at the base that has called the missiles loaded R-60, they are clearly marked. And they are very capable warheads. That could be could be it. The python is more for speculations since it is not clear whether they were in use at all.
l did some more research and it seems that there is a misunderstanding of how a
radar proximity fuse works. It might work in the way you describe but I haven’t found
any information that would corroborate that method.
‘Radio frequency sensing is the main sensing principle for artillery shells.
The device described in World War II patent works as follows: The shell contains a micro-transmitter which uses the shell body as an antenna and emits a continuous wave of roughly 180–220 MHz. As the shell approaches a reflecting object, an interference pattern is created. This pattern changes with shrinking distance: every half wavelength in distance (a half wavelength at this frequency is about 0.7 meters), the transmitter is in or out of resonance. This causes a small cycling of the radiated power and consequently the oscillator supply current of about 200–800 Hz, the Doppler frequency. This signal is sent through a band pass filter, amplified, and triggers the detonation when it exceeds a given amplitude.”
The decisive proof that the MH-17 has been ‘machine-gunned’ is the disappearance of the videos of the interview with Michael Bociurkiw, which confirmed (showing the panel) what was asserted immediately after the case, namely that the holes in the panel were perfectly round and could not have been attributed to shrapnel fragments under any circumstances. The case was amply discussed at the time on all TV channels and there are millions of witnesses. Tampering with evidence, withholding evidence, are criminal offenses that the Governments of Ukraine, Australia, Holland, Germany and USA are guilty of.
John4truth, there is the R-27 P missile that has a passive radar homing seeker that
would home in on the transponder in the nose of the plane. It seems that both hypotheses
are equally plausible. I prefer the Python hypothesis because it has an image seeking
matrix which targets the cockpit.
You know if the JIT had found a R-60 or R-73 which remain the weapons of the Ukrainian SU-25M1 (Russian made), it would be possible to go into the military datasystem and find out exactly how each missile was used or stored. They don’t want any part of such inquiries. I think the Python is a decoy for digging journalists etc. The information was put out there, and there is a lot of desinformation. The Georgian SU-25KM Scorpion use R-73 as well, and it was developed by Elbit Israel.
R-73 for example has an RF fuse (radiofrequency) with a receiver (antenna) so it should be pretty clear how the standard RF fuse work. R-60 and R-73 are the standard weapons of SU-25. I think that the BUK manufacturing set the upper limit for the actual warhead to be 9 kg. R-73 has a 7.4 kg warhead so it fits perfectly while R-60 is 3.5 kg but may be very effective:
The Atlantique incident, a single R-60 brought down a large aircraft.
The MH-17 was under a close attack, and pursuit, probaly machine cannon fire had it explode and disintegrate midair. The MH-17 had no change of survival whatever the type of missile was used.
My compliments Eric, ‘another one bites the dust’ like the British band Queen used to sing,
May I add something to your story?
The JIT whines that they have no Russian radar data. Interesting, that I have seen them days after the crash, as just a simple civilian with a laptop. You want to see them too? Well, watch this https://www.rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/ and don’t hesitate to click on the embedded links as should be a good thing to do with Eric Zuesse links too, when they are not erased on total panic by the thought police.
Simplified summary: Russian military presented the radar data, and asked what a Ukranian SU-25 was doing rising up and so close to the MH17. As expected, the exceptional ones are suddenly busy.
IMHO there is a glaring contradiction in your post…in fact in the very same paragraph…
…first, you state…
“…for the SU-25 the critical mach number is somewhat less than the Boeing’s cruising speed. Wrap your head around that, and then try to explain how an SU-25 could accurately converge on a B-777 and fire many, extraordinarily accurate cannon rounds into the left side and exiting the right side of the Boeing.
…then you say…
“It is very clear that MH-17 was not hit by cannon fire from a SU-25. (Or if it was it was relatively inconsequential.)”
Surely any “cannon fire” that could hit MH17 would be extremely ‘consequential’…especially as I understand it the normal calibre is 30mm… if it could hit any part of the plane then it could hit the cockpit and of course, the pilot and co-pilot…this is exactly what earlier photos show …curiously they have very conveniently disappeared off the internet. Multiple machine gun hits to the cockpit could without any shadow of doubt bring the plane down.
Furthermore, if the plane was hit by a BUK missile from the ground and fired by those very bad, bad, bad Russians then the trail from the launch site would have been photographed and videoed multiple times by every man and his dog, remember it was a very clear day at the time of the crash. The trail would have been visible for 10-15 minutes after the ‘explosion’ and from a huge area of many tens of square kilometers… it is inconceivable that no time dated photos or video have has come to light to show that there was clearly a ground-based missile fired at MH-17.
Seems to me the ‘Russia dunnit’ mantra has more holes in than Swiss cheese…very round ones too…and in this case about 30mm diameter…come to think of it, rather like the cockpit in the vicinity of the pilot’s seat.
By the way, what an excellent account Mr. Zuesse!
@Col: There is no contradiction.
There is overwhelming evidence that the aircraft was hit by a BUK. The full scale test produced almost identical damage. Some of the projectile holes match BUK projectiles. The debris allegedly found in the area was that of a BUK. In addition, the serial numbers on that debris were documented to be Ukrainian.
It is very unlikely that an SU-25 could have effectively targeted a B-777 with its cannon. Why not? Because it can’t fly fast enough. Furthermore, it is not adapted to accurately aiming the cannon in air to air combat. An SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft. Targets on the ground don’t move. But aircraft do, and hitting them requires a complex set of calculations performed by a sighting system designed for the purpose. So, is it possible that an SU-25 could have hit a B-777 at cruising speed, from the side, with multiple *extremely* accurate lucky shots? Sure. It’s just not likely.
One or even a few cannon rounds could not have done the damage that is observed in the many photos. The damage to the aircraft has not changed over time. So, what photos (that are no longer available) are you referring to? And exactly what do you imagine that they showed?
If we accept the unlikely premise that one or more cannon rounds from an SU-25 actually hit the aircraft, of what consequence was that compared to the damage inflicted by the BUK warhead? No consequence.
Witnesses did report hearing a distant explosion in the sky. Considering the altitude of MH-17, this would have been consistent with the substantial size of a BUK warhead. It would not have been consistent with a cannon attack, or a much smaller air to air missile warhead.
Witnesses, photographs, video, etc. of the alleged BUK attack, including engine noise, smoke trails, etc. are indeed absent. But that does not negate that possibility. If we are to discern the truth in anything, we must use disciplined reasoning. Foremost, we must examine the evidence. And, as the adage goes: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Yet, it is appropriate to question why this “evidence” is missing. Some understanding can be gained by examining other known facts, and especially by ignoring misleading assertions. To understand how people on the ground might have not directly observed a BUK attack, we should examine the conditions at the time and the characteristics of the BUK.
You write, “remember it was a very clear day”. Why do you write that? In fact, it is not correct. In the area of the crash, at ground level the visibility was not restricted, but it was overcast. There was a cloud deck below MH-17 that completely obscured a view of the aircraft from the ground.
The BUK missile has a maximum range of about 50 kilometers (depending on specific model). For an “easy” target like a B-777, which has a huge radar cross section and is not maneuvering, the maximum range might even be longer. The designer of the system (Almaz-Antey) described the trajectory of the missile at long range as first achieving an altitude higher than the target, then descending to intercept it. This makes sense from an engineering point of view because it maximizes the range of the missile while maintaining its speed and maneuverability. We can assume that the rocket motor burns out before apogee. So, in approximate terms, the rocket could have ceased its burn 20 km from intercept, and at an altitude of 75,000 ft.
The sound of the rocket motor that reached the ground near the intercept point might not have been noticeable, or could have been mistaken for or obscured by jet engine noise, which was reported by witnesses. Smoke trails from the BUK engine would not have been visible above the ceiling, which I vaguely recall was around 20,000 ft. And notwithstanding any conjecture or suggestion, the BUK launch point could have been upwards of 50 km away from the intercept point, and even farther from the crash site, and been in an area where a lot of similar activity was occurring. So it is plausible that a BUK launch might have gone unnoticed, or unreported. After all, there was a war going on, and people might have been keeping their heads down, both physically and metaphorically.
In short, the SU-25 cannon thesis makes no sense, and the BUK thesis makes complete sense. Why then does the cannon thesis persist? That in itself is an interesting phenomenon.
“There is overwhelming evidence that the aircraft was hit by a BUK”
So overwhelming that there is no need to look at any other evidence… reminds me of recent proceedings in a district court somewhere in the Netherlands. Saves such a lot of time. Nevertheless…
“It is very unlikely that an SU-25 could have effectively targeted a B-777 with its cannon. ”
Why an SU-25? Here’s an entire video arguing that it was a MIG:
“Witnesses did report hearing a distant explosion in the sky. Considering the altitude of MH-17, this would have been consistent with the substantial size of a BUK warhead. It would not have been consistent with a cannon attack, or a much smaller air to air missile warhead”
Witnesses also reported seeing fighter jets in the sky at that time. I guess you used up all your attention on the BUK (that they didn’t see) so hadn’t got any left to examine the evidence about the jets (which they did see).
“In short, the SU-25 cannon thesis makes no sense, and the BUK thesis makes complete sense. ”
That reasoning is similar to taking a look at the entire route of the MH17, which started in the Netherlands, continued over Germany, then Poland, then over Ukraine, and finally crashed in Ukraine; and then concluding that, obviously, it must have been something to do with Russia.