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Comment by Whistling Shrimp
Is there no end to this madness? Must the hatreds and recriminations continue on for indefinite numbers of generations? Essentially everyone who fought that war, who benefited from it in one way or another or who was a tragic victim caught in the middle of things is DEAD, in most cases LONG DEAD. If you were a 25 year old grunt in the Wehrmacht or the Red Army when Admiral Doenitz surrendered to the Allies, you are now a centenarian! If you were a 15 year old kid, you are now a ripe 90 and most of your contemporaries are pushing up daisies.
There is basically no one left alive who is entitled to a personal apology or material reparations. Leave the ethnic and nationalist hatreds to die along with the now lifeless bodies of all those who were swept up in the conflict, hardly any out of choice. The living did not perpetrate this. The living are not responsible for issuing apologies or purported “reparations” to their fellow contemporaries who themselves did nothing to accrue such benefits. By the same token extant Americans do not owe reparations to modern day African-Americans or Native Americans, though we do owe them equal rights and opportunities.
No matter who or what you are, whether Jew, Pole, Russian, Lithuanian, or German, you and your issue have had 75 years to make a life for yourselves on your own terms in a free world, nominally at peace. Your life was not made utter Scheiss because you or your cousins did not inherit some piece of artwork you claim your great great uncle had confiscated by the Nazis, the mafia, the partisans, some gleaner or was simply eaten by a goat.
Knock off the incessant kvetching and, most importantly, stop escalating the brinksmanship with the United States, using it as leverage to wheedle ever more concessions from Russia or Germany, which is guaranteed, some day, to precipitate the NEXT world war. I aim these last remarks most notably at the countries that have collectively gone off the rails with their revanchism after the end of Cold War I. Instead of enjoying the fruits of what was meant to be a new peace, they, along with the United States did nothing but conspire to rekindle Cold War II, of which the world is now in the deepest of throes with no clear path to sanity.
I am living proof that it is possible for the world’s “McCoy’s and Hatfield’s” to bury the hatchet, leave behind the darkest bits of history and live only in the present for the future. I was born right after the war. My father’s side was entirely ethnic Kashubian* from Pomerania (Pomorze) (dating back as far as one could genealogically track into the 1600’s). My mother’s side was ethnic German from Far Pomerania (Vorpommern). What made it work, I guess (before the United States itself became immersed in current identity politics), was that in post WWII America nobody ever seemed to care what your background was or where your family was from. Needless to say, the warm afterglow following WWII did not last, even here, when those who could profit through society’s dissension crawled out of the woodwork. I suspect the egalitarian mythos is what initially attracted the Saker to the United States. I think he knows better now.
Come on, people. Show some common sense. Let’s start fighting to solve our many problems, immediate and potential, posed by the forces of nature as a unified species, instead of fighting one another, especially over a past that cannot be changed one iota.
[*Kashubians were among the original inhabitants of the Baltic coast known as Pomerania. They were neither German nor Polish. Like the Polabians, Veleti, Sorbs, and the Wends they were a Slavic tribe with their own language and culture.]
Some contemporary ethnic groups take advantage of the pain suffered in war by their progenitors in order to garner undeserved monetary compensation such as tax credits and other forms of social benefits. Those who live in New York State, in Germany, etc. know of these people who consider themselves to be more equal than others.
“Come on, people. Show some common sense”
You are asking for impossible.
Come back to Earth.
The human nature will never change.
What is human nature?
The human nature is led, like the animals, mostly by fear. What kind of fear you may ask. But first think of yourself, what kind of fears are there in our daily life today and also you can compare these with the past.
Are these fears completely vanished ? No, there are societal fears and particular fears. Are we perfect ?
I’m afraid we aren’t. Some people are decent, some are not, there are great differences among us. First we have to dismantle these differences, we have to learn and discern what is true and what is not. Yes, I know, this is in itself a hard task to achieve and it sounds at first as extreme but we need to have an open mind, then we will see the nuances. Nothing is given for free, we have to learn the way, despite many difficulties we may encounter.
So you think “human nature” is a genetic trait a selfish gene . I think its nurture not nature. You are what you are because of me, and I am what I am because of you. Our human nature is defined by those we interact with from birth to death. Its learned and it can be unlearned if done at birth and on.
Very good comment! I almost agree. But there’s also this (hardly incidental) thought in the Lord’s Prayer:
” …и остави нам долги наша, якоже и мы оставляем должником нашим…”
” …and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors…” (your translation may vary :-) )
Literally “leaving the past behind” is possibly not exactly what is required — since we continue — and must continue — to strive to understand our common history.
What is required is Forgiveness, i.e., actively writing off old debts, if any, that may exist. I also strongly believe the idea of inheritance is more of a curse than a blessing for families, but we can leave that for another comment.
Well, since we are dealing with the world’s most underrated Latin Christians, never getting the unreserved pity and adulation they are entitled to, the Poles won’t ever consider to become grown-ups. They owe what little civilization they have to Russia and Germany. If Poland isn’t kept on a tight leash, her manifest pettiness and delusions of grandeur will forever plague Europe with her vain, reactionary intrigues. The solution is pretty obvious: Russia and Germany should terminally partition Poland.
My dear friend, I won’t say that, some people around are saying the same must happen with Hungary, both countries have a politically established consensus regarding their past, having similar attitude but that doesn’t mean that these countries with their people have to be obliterated. They have the right to exist. remember the old slogan “proletars of the world unite” ? I would change it in ” good people of the world unite”. Sadly, the history has produced a lot of lies which became unbearable for many, having no idea how to deal with it and if that wasn’t enough, the political leaders are exploiting this.
Live and let live, I am saying to people who breath hate at Poles, and call their country “Gownopolska”. What will they say if others say to limit the Russian nation to the Duchy of Muskovy? Poles have paid dearly for their independence, with their blood, so do not belittle them. Germans and Russians are not the arbiters of Polish “Question” anymore, so get used to it , folks!
Sorry, but I don’t agree at all. You can leave the past behind, only if you have solved all the problems related to it, and that in Europe, especially in Eastern Europe, did not happen. According to me history teaches two things: 1) behind nationalisms there are always economic interests, 2) the most effective way of eliminating opposing nationalisms has almost always been ethnic cleansing, and, after the Second World War, Soviet Union never did it. I think that, actually, in Eastern Europe, while there is still a tangle of peoples, there are no such important economic reasons behind the reviving nationalisms, so the problem is due more to external influences and less to endogenous factors.
The U.S. are exerting a very strong pressure on Russia, and, for historical reasons, to foment anti Russian feelings at its western borders is a very simple and inexpensive tool (as England has often done in past centuries against its continental rivals including Russia); moreover there is no risk that the problem backfires on its perpetrator because, in the event of an explosion of nationalisms in Eastern Europe, the main victim is likely to be Germany; but who cares ? Surely not the U.S. that are so far away
I believe the Russian leadership knows it well, and tries to contain this type of border attack with a rearguard battle without getting overly involved. In the face of a declining Europe, it’s vital for Russia to move the nation’s center of gravity to the east where world wealth is rapidly moving. In the next years Russia have to strengthen its economy at a very fast pace so it must avoid, as much as possible, to get carried away in exhausting conflicts on its turbulent western borders. Finally I meaning that or Russia will develop a very strong and balanced economy or simply Russia will not be, and this is the reason why Putin, despite American pressure, has reduced military spending to concentrate resources on economic development
marx is dead. hitler is dead. the “founding fathers” are dead. same for mohammed and herzl. doesn’t seem to matter. that’s because you can kill a person but you can’t kill an idea. those oblivious to this fact are usually materialists and therefore part of the problem. complaining about “egalitarianism” where none exists (and never has) is also a red flag.
we still talk about WWII because it shaped the current world we inhabit. plus israelis would be expected to act like actual humans if they couldn’t hide behind the holocaust.
-we still talk about WWII because it shaped the current world we inhabit. plus israelis would be expected to act like actual humans if they couldn’t hide behind the holocaust.
There is a constant demonisation of Israel. Let us put Israel into context
1.Israel has performed ethnic cleasing at the cost of 50.000 Palestinains (we make that 100.000 in this context)
2.The “Jews” were used as slave labor in camps like Auschwitz, IG Farben being the most important war factory in Nazi germany (more or less). Without IG Farben Germany would have lost WWII?
Then what are the crimes of the Christian US?
-3 mill North-Korean genocided, also using biowarfare against children
-7 mill refugees in Iraq, and 2.7 million deaths
-6 mill refugees in Syria, and many hundred thousands deaths
-4? million deaths in Zaire (Congo), starting with murder of Lumumba and US puppet Mubutu
“Mobutu … was a Congolese politician and military officer who was the President of Zaire (renamed from the Democratic Republic of the Congo in 1971) from 1965 to 1997. ”
I.e 10 millions deaths (here alone) related to US policy, and 13 millions refugees …
vs. 100.000 dead Palestinians and 1-2 million refugees caused by Israelis
Israel can compete with US.
It is 1 : 100 in cruelty
Your death tolls for Korea is probably accurate. 2 million died in the firebombing of North Korean cities, something the Americans are ignorant about,. I have to say I’ve never heard of bio-warfare being used in Korea by Americans. Your number for Iraq is as accurate as anyone can count. Syria is at least 6 million refugees, and I’ve read the death toll stands at 800,000.
You left out the death tolls for Vietnam – 3 million, Indonesia – 650,000 in 1965, as well as Laos, Cambodia, etc.
The US and the UK stoked the civil war in Greece in 1948, and some 150,000 Greeks died. Your 4 million in Zaire is an under-count. The fight for Katanga involved serious loss of life before the African World War (thus named because 19 nations participated). However, the real issue with this number is that AFAIK, the United States had little to do with it; it was stoked by European nations Even the British say the death toll from the African World War was at least 5 million, mostly civilians who fled to the jungle to avoid the violence and they starved to death there.
I’ve seen tallies of 30 million dead post-1945 from US aggression. It is only in that light that Israeli can look “good”, but no one should lose sight of the fact that it was Israel who pushed the US to all the wars in the Middle east and North Africa. Without them, our Military Industrial Complex would have had little to do.
“Grčki Fašistički Teror i Nevistini” ( Greek Fascism; Terror and Lies ) Warning; the link contains photographs of fields of dead Macedonians, Greek trophyhunters with rows of beheaded Macedonians, Women being shot at point blank range, etc.
For the record, Cosimo, many of those victims were Macedonians with Greek Fascists taking the opportunity under the wing of their US/Gr.Britain cohorts, to wipe out all possible vestiges of the autochtonous ethnic Macedonians, whose lands they had annexed in the Balkan Wars 1912/13, ( hitherto under control of Ottoman Empire, but that does not change the fact that historically, Aegean Macedonia is Macedonian, not Greek land. ). Greece is another Mono State, ostensibly claiming 98.5% “purity”, the 1.5% being Muslim. Don’t know if that is “Muslim Greeks” or nameless, faceless Muslims, because Greeks are exclusively Christian. Just like they’re ancient Greeks, read pagans/ Chrisitians, Macedonians/Greeks, Orthodox/yet Western in their orientation etc. Just a few of the Greek paradoxes kept under the carpet, since Western created client states get a free pass, hence the Greek genocide of Macedonians, never being mentioned and so on.
A factual source about biowarfare used in North-Korea
“In September 1952, the International Scientific Commission for the Investigation of the Facts Concerning Bacterial Warfare in Korea and China (ISC) issued a report (large PDF) finding that the U.S. had conducted biological warfare during the Korean War.
The ISC linked Pak’s death to the discovery of plague-laden fleas in his village. His death was one piece in the chain of evidence in the case proving U.S. germ warfare.
The report noted: “Since the beginning of 1952 numerous isolated foci of plague have appeared in North Korea, always associated with the sudden appearance of numbers of fleas and with the previous passage of American planes. Seven of these incidents, the earliest dating from 11th Feb., were reported in SIA/1, and in six of them the presence of the plague bacteria in the fleas was demonstrated. Document SIA/4 added the statement that after a delivery of fleas to the neighbourhood of An-Ju on the 18th Feb., fleas which were shown bacteriologically to contain Pasteurella pestis, a plague epidemic broke out at Bal-Nam-Ri in that district on the 25th. Out of a population of 600 in the village, 50 went down with plague and 36 died.”
The case of Zaire (or Guatemala) requires historical research. It is a fact Africa’s JFK Lumumba (and UN chief Hammerskjoeld was murdered, the former by CIA). Then what happened next?
Another fact: During Agola War Zaire was a hub for US weapon transport to war zone. Angola was left with millions of land mines, intended for the civilian population.
– the fact that it was Israel who pushed the US to all the wars in the Middle east and North Africa.
Mossad was built by MI6. Mossad’s orders are coming from abroad according to Victor Ostrovsky.
Israeli companies are owned by US business as a rule? Supreme Court Building is something from UK.
USS Liberty was not Israel? It was LBJ who ordered USS Liberty to be sunk? By that time the nukes were prepared on US planes, ready to be used.
Israel is run by dual citizens who are loyal to US you may say. $20 trillion has been used to build underground US, while the Israelis are meant to die in next WW.
The technology US has is something 3rd world Israel only can dream about.
There’s always been a conflict in this world between the interests of the individual and the interests of those who’ve inherited the power structure created by the preceding generation. As such, the primary concern of those in power has always been to secure their interests, which invariably means discrimination, repression, bloodshed etc. where perceived enemies are concerned. I agree with Youri’s assessment that forgiveness is that which can heal past grievances ( along with reparations, perhaps ), but forgiveness will never occur while a materialistic mindset reigns in human beings.
From a spiritual viewpoint, the individual Soul needs to experience being oppressor as well as victim, and through the Law of Karma, the “wages” of both. Since what holds the structures of the past in place is attachment, Soul eventually learns and accepts that this world is a training ground in order to bring the individual Soul maturity/strength/wisdom, and was created for the purpose of education. As Soul begins to understand God’s overall plan, It begins to move toward a state of detachment in all things. Soul is then able to act with greater effectiveness in whatever it turns it’s attention to.
It’s no mistake that the ways of the world, and the old, established behavioural/thought patterns, modes and ways of being, human beings display toward one another, and life in general, are in direct opposition to Soul’s inherent traits, which are freedon, love and wisdom. In order to survive, it must develop it’s creativity to the highest possible degree, in order to outwit the negative force ( the law of action and reaction, or karma ). In fact, one does not outwit the negative force, one goes to a higher law, the law of love, and this is what eventually leads It out of the maze.
Yes, sure lets leave all those demands, attemps to manipulate for gains behind, but the first one to initiate this noble process is the one who had started, i.e. Poles.
By the same token extant Americans do not owe reparations to modern day African-Americans or Native Americans, though we do owe them equal rights and opportunities.
I could not disagree more ! These two populations are perfect examples of why the author is wrong.
First, the African Americans. Two simple facts here: Part of the prosperity we enjoy today came from the exploitation – the savage exploitation – of previous generations of slaves. Ignore for a moment, the razor sharp question of when all this savage exploitation “went away.” Ignore the fact that from 1920-1990 or later, black farmers were unable to get federal government credits and thus lost their meager farms to subsidized white agribusinesses. For a moment, ignore the question of whether this discrimination ever went away. Ignore the fact that slavery was not a crime in the US until after Pearl Harbor, and that the first prosecution for slavery was not until February 1942. less than 80 years ago. Instead, let’s pretend we live in some la-la land where the oppression went away at some mystical date, but within the lifetimes of not-so-old people. In other words, let’s ignore the facts of history, which is what good Muricans are supposed to do – I guess. So now we don’t owe a damn thing to any living descendants of the slaves. The slate is wiped clean, the author would claim. But who could possibly say that the descendants of the slaves have any real opportunity to compete on an equal basis with the populations (yes, in the plural), who actually benefited from slavery ? No problem, you say ? Life is unfair so “just get over it” ??? That means advocating a culture, a society, where people just shrug their shoulders at stark and obvious inequality, and that has serious consequences. “The law, in its magisterial equality forbids rich men and poor men alike from sleeping under bridges”, with the implied depravities. “Darkies git skrewed and thass okay” ??? Really? So any other group can get screwed too, and that’s okay too, right ? Of course, the only groups that get screwed are the ones without enough real power. Societies like that have far less Social Solidarity and can shatter at the first real threat, either from within (e.g. organized Jewish supremacists or really any other group of determined subversives) or from without, if another nation happened to offer a better deal materially. So let me sum it up. A society that doesn’t care about historical injustices is a dog-eat-dog society and does not have a long-term future.
Now we have to distinguish two things here. Society owes this collectively, but there is often a danger that African-Americans buy into this victimization and practice “learned helplessness”, including the idea that any one individual white person owes this historical debt to any one individual black person, this can go astray. I’ve been close enough to some black friends that they basically told me that, and I learned that’s usually a danger sign, so I crossed the street sooner than later. BTW, I’ve only seen that attitude in liberal Northern states where a few blacks were in a position to make their special form of parasitism work for them. I’ve never seen it in the South, personally.
This is a long way round, to say that I do agree that the consequences for individuals, of ignoring historical injustices, is perhaps better, but it really makes for awful societies.
Now, for the much larger issue of the native people whose land we stole and whom we mostly just wiped out, I will tell you with full fury, that such huge injustices will take thousands of years to go away, and for those thousands of years, the scars that are left will continue to afflict both the victims and the perpetrators. The reason I hate Zionism is the same reason I hate my ancestors. Both of them use religion to “justify” their ethnocides. Ethnocide being the polite term for depriving countless people of absolutely everything they ever had, right down to and past their very existense, beyond that, down to the memory that there ever were any such people. I had more than my share of Jewish friends growing up, and I never thought about Zionism until I saw a poster that tried to justify Israel’s existence by asking Americans if they were willing to give up the land they stole/raped/murdered to get. Fortunately by then, I already knew the moral answer. We stole the land and murdered the previous inhabitants, and justified it with Manifest Destiny. That peculiar idea isn’t restricted to the 19th Century; it’s still here today. And the answer is that yes, we owe, and will always owe, a great deal to the memory of the murdered inhabitants and to their few remaining descendants. It’s a huge historical debt to them, but it’s also what we owe ourselves if we are ever to have a clear and positive concept of where we are going as “Americans”. And if we never find the correct answer to that, then we are doomed. One more thing on this topic. My own English ethnic ancestors did the ethnocides by about 1870 – except for the Dawes Act of 1887 by a Democrat-controlled Congress which destroyed the reservations, and after that, there were waves after waves of immigrants piling into the newly cleared Promised Land. The earlier group did the grisly murders, and the second, larger, set of newcomers were all very happy to remove everything valuable from the corpse of what was once a thriving continent. There is some moral distinction between the murderers and the corpse-robbers – but not a lot. Note that black Americans are the only ones who did not arrive here to participate in all these grisly ethnocides. They are 100% absolved from those great crimes.
Last thing, which brings my comments closer to the Vineyard. Poland harbored some 12 ethnic groups, 12 linguistic groups, which all disappeared between 1800 and 1950. You can find that, as I did once, from Wikipedia. My questions are 1. Whether these disappearances amounted to violent ethnocides, and 2. whether those disappearances and the resulting Polish mono-culture has something to do with the character of modern Poland.
is the balm that absolves soul
of all wrong-doing
Oh believe me that won’t happen. Why?
Because nobody ACTUALLY cares that much. Exactly because everyone’s dead.
Why it’s thrown so much about still? Free excuse to talk sh**. Everything is about power.
We should be optimistic because the financial environment is changing fast… Over 6 trillion dollars disapeared last week from the financial market. THEY WERE LOST. They were all PAPER. This is why the stock market is crashing so fast…
Do not waste your hope. China, without guessing (probably), closed the LINES OF PRODUCTION creating enormous *uncertainty*, and thus, selloff in the inflated bubble of the market. IT WAS A GENUINE COUP DE CLASS. The fall will not stop until the last paper is burnt. and, then, who knows what will happen? It is then that we will have to act.
…and if any remain, most probably are senile.
But that’s kind of the whole point? Riding on a high horse is much less profitable when there’s someone alive to whom the loot would flow rather than “the people”, and who at any moment can say “#NotYourShield”.
Defying all of the unstated rules of polite Cafe conversation, regarding “The Big Bug” — namely spuriousness extremis, and conjectivitis absurdis— I want to share my two cents of the minute.
One curiosity of the bubonic plague was the bacterial ability to re-infect a host, which coupled with the generalized apocalyptic fear of the unknown, and relative shortcomings in day-to-day wellbeing, led to a higher mortality. Fear isn’t healthy, just as anger and envy likewise don’t engender robustness of constitutions, so too fear tends to wear on the nerves. Long point short: carnivorevirus will likely outdo itself on these grounds alone.
Secondly, despite zero reason to believe this — by any polite standard of cafe etiquette!— I am of the convinced opinion that our love-bug is already making the Westerly rounds, since before the China clampdown! Yes, I think that it is already embedded and domiciled. But am happy to rethink (just as long as it’s not too late!).
In the 90s I made clothes donations to a young Polish woman who had made lots of money in computers and spent much helping Eastern European orphans. Her uncle had been murdered for his Soldarity effort, so the family emigrated to the good ol’ USA.
Imagine how I, a simple Christian from Texas, felt when she told me she took the boxes and toys herself over there because the orphans had to be carefully divided into Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant . Large buildings were partitioned off so the children couldn’t be contaminated by playing together.
In the US and Mexico all these groups have Bible study if they want, pool their charity work…even the clergy take their noses out of the air to accomplish good things.
I know Europe had horrible massacres and thefts in the past, though I have always believed $$ and pride had more to do with them than faith. But Christianity itself, even faith in the one God, is at a crossroads. The young want results, not arguments,..they want justice and a wholesome peace, not more cathedrals. I wonder where those segregated orphans are today and how they feel.
The statement claiming that prior to WW2, nobody ever cared about what background your father was from must have been an anomoly in location of America, because America was far more ethnically, racially, religiously, and class segregated prior to WW2 than it is now by far, for most of America. Polish, German, Beligian, Swiss, Czek, Jewish, Slavic, Irish, Itallian, Chinese, Japanese, ethnic minority communities were prevalent in America. Towns are named after countries, as in Wisconsin, Belgium, Caledonia, etc.
Immigrant communities often spoke the language of origin of the countries that they came from as they still do today. Waves of immigrants have poured into America throughout our history to escape famine, war, oppression,as well as seeking opportunity and freedom in the past, which is far less today with the surveillance/ police state.
Or could it be that the author was from such an immigrant community where everyone already knew everyone else’s father’s background, and they were often strikingly similar?
Correction, not implying that Wisconsin was or is a country, but should have said as Belgium and Caledonia are in Wisconsin, and if people are unfamiliar with Wisconsin, they would probably not know that Belgium and Caledonia are in Wisconsin.