First, a disclaimer: I am not a pilot nor an air traffic controller, and I never served with air defense units. I did spend some time with an airforce, but my role was one of electronic intercept analysis. So what follows are just the musings of an uninformed amateur. Caveat emptor.
What I will try to do here is present a possible scenario which takes into account the basic facts established so far. Here goes:
The plan was for the Ukies to shoot down the MH17 using a totally inappropriate aircraft: the Su-25, which is a “tree hugging” close air support aircraft. Why? After all, the Ukies do have some Mig-29s and even some Su-27, but these are much fewer in number and much easier to track. A few of them have been seen in the skies over Novorussia, but only rarely. In contrast, the Su-25 has been a ever-present presence in the skies ever since the conflict began. Some say that the Su-25 cannot fly over 7’000m. That is not true. The problem is that it’s cockpit is not pressurized, but the airframe itself has powerful engines which can bring the aircraft well over 10’000m. All the pilot would need is some good warm clothing and an oxygen mask. No, the big drawback of sending the Su-25 so high is that it’s engines are not designed to be used at that altitude and that it will not be able to fly fast enough to catch-up with a cruising Boeing. But what if the Su-25 carried a missile?
Turns out that the Su-25 can carry the R-60 air-to-air missile which can fly at over 3’000km per hour and thus easily catch up with a cruising airliner. So the Su-25+R-60 combination has a flight envelope which is sufficient to attack a Boeing.
There is something else that the Su-25 lacks to function has an interceptor: a radar. Well, this is not quite true, the Su-25 has a radar, but it is designed for navigation, not air-to-air combat. However, the R-60 missile does not need a radar, it has its own infrared homing warhead. So if the pilot of the Su-25 can point his aircraft in the general direction of a heat emitting target, and if that target is not too fast or too far away, the R-60 will be able to lock on to it and close in. The R-60 is a pretty small missile with a short range, under 8’000m, but it so happens that that Russian radar operators reported the Su-25 at about 3-5’000m from MH17.
Still, it is not easy to visually acquire the correct aircraft from the cockpit of a Su-25, then get within the correct range and then fire. There are clouds, sunlight, other aircraft. And the Su-25 has no air-to-air radar with a search and track mode. So what could the Ukies have done? Provided another radar?
In comes the 3 BukM1 transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) and the at least one early warning (long range) radar which all had just been moved in the day before MH17 was shot down, and then immediately withdrawn. The radars of each Buk TELAR and the long range early warning radar whose signal have been detected by the Russians could have easily guided the Su-25 to its target, either by a encrypted datalink or even by radio commands.
Combining all of the above, here is my totally primitive and possibly completely mistaken hypothesis:
The Ukies guided the Su-25 to MH17 by using the Buk radar capabilities. As soon as he was in reach, the SU-25 fire a R-60 missile which hit one of the two engines. At this point, the MH17 sharply turned to one side and lost altitude (the hit engine would lose power and its drag would sharply pull the Boeing to one side). The Su-25 then easily closed in and opened fire with his cannon, which has a range of 4’000m, shredding the cockpit and cabin with 30mm rounds. Had the pilot of the Su-25 failed to catch with MH17 or if the R-60 missile had failed, the Buks on the ground were ready to shoot, but they probably did not have to. Once MH17 was clearly destroyed, the pilot of the Su-25 could have easily landed anywhere in the Ukraine without drawing any attention.
This was a good plan, but it failed to take into account the sharp turn made by MH17 which instead of continuing on its path towards Russia turned around and fell into a contested by Resistance-controlled field.
One more thing: if my hypothesis is correct and the first impact on MH17 was from a rather small R-60 missile (3kg warhead) into an engine, the flight deck did probably not suffer an immediate and catastrophic depressurization. If so, the pilots would have had the time to report an explosion. This is why the recordings of the Kiev ATC were seized by the SBU and why the result of the analysis of the flight recorders takes so much time: the Empire needs to wipe away the recording of the pilots’ last words. Conversely, if MH17 had been destroyed by a BukM1 missile (70kg warhead) the depressurization would have been immediate and catastrophic. The problem with wiping the flight recorders is that if the pilots had the time to send a mayday then it would have been recorded not only by the USA and Russia, but by at least two more West European countries. Even if the latter would comply with the US orders, the Americans are probably terrified that the Russians have the recordings of the MH17’s mayday and they are probably trying to negotiate a deal with Russia. If not, they need to carefully prepare the public opinion by, for example, organizing careful leaks through the Dutch and Malaysian press to say that nothing was recorded in order to denounce any recording presented by Russia as a “fake”. All of this is, again, pure speculation on my part.
Ok, now please feel free to tear this hypothesis into shreds. These are just the musings of an amateur and most definitely not an expert opinion. I submit it only as a basis for discussion.
Imam Ali (as) said regarding Angels, Mankind and Animals.
1. Angels have intelligence but no desire.
2. Animals are full of desire but with very little intelligence.
3. Mankind has been given both intelligence and desire. When a human controls her/his desire, she/he is better than an animal. But, when he/she is overcome by desire than he/she is worse than an animal.
Most of times, we human beings are forced to become like animals, by forcing our conscious desire to overcome us by our adversary the satan by consciously listening to the “Evil Whisper” within us.
God Help Us,
Again, I do not see enough credible material so far and can’t come to a conclusion.
Assuming that the common village people are among the more credible sources (smelling bodies, passports unharmed, etc).
I would assume that some kind of small bomb was brought into the cockpit in Amsterdam (The flight security there is handled by the same israeli security company that was so “helpful” to mossad/cia interests on 9/11 …).
Simple reason: Nothing on the voice recorder (well, officially), the kind of damage (cockpit).
The Su-25 might have been there to observe and to fire a missile either if needed or to crate a kind of impression based on which Novorossija could be blamed.
As for the missile:
Forget it! Neither the R-60 nor the Buk can hit any “desired” part of an airplane other than the engines, if that.
In fact, those missiles are not even meant/designed to necessarily hit, they are meant to come close enough to spread sth. like Shrapnel. If they actually hit the target plane that’s kind of (not needed) luck.
The problem with radar guide is that it’s “noisy”; one doesn’t use that for sneaky dirty jobs. And the infrared guided missiles quite reliably go for the engine.
Any story about a missile hitting the cockpit is highly improbable.
Same goes, albeit somewhat less, for the 30mm cannon of Su-25.
I also don’t buy the “it was meant to crash in Russia” story.
Simple reason: The country where it lands has authority and first chance to properly inspect.
ukratine/usa doing such a despicable op. the last thing they want is Russian security all over the crash site.
My assumption is that they had planned (but failed once more) to have it in or very close to Novorossija but in such way that they themselves can be the first at the crash site to seal it off, plant “evidence”, make real evidence vanish, etc.
The persecution of crime is essential to any culture. Without it there is nothing, no human live is possible because anybody would go paranoid and rather kill his own neighbour before that one has the chance to harm him. A crime of that dimensions is no joke and as it appears to me there is no classic jurisdiction nor any transnational institution which is willing to persecute and judge those responsible. The UN is a disaster and Russia is to much involved as a suspect to be independent, the same of course is true of any NATO country. Any other country will be under enormous pressure of the big ones.
The notion that the truth may never be known is a very dangerous one. But hobby like speculations while well intended are quite counterproductive.
As there is no institution we can thrust any longer we have to create our own.
I’m taking time to read comments until later. I think the fighter first fired the 30mm at the cockpit killing the pilots. Then turned and used the missiles. There would be no May Day and the same time a ground launch also hitting the plane. Or I’m wrong what ever. Sad
The #3 in my above post to you has an error and should read as following:
3. Mankind has been given both intelligence and desire. When a Human controls her/his desire, she/he is better than an Angel. But, when he/she is overcome by desire than he/she is worse than an Animal.
Hope the above make some sense now.
The Ukrainian military upgraded their SU-25,s to the SU-25M1.
The Ukrainian aviation factory in Zaporozhye, undertook the assignment of the modernization of the Ukrainian Su-25 Frogfoot. The project included the reinforcement of structural components, the installment of advanced electronic navigational equipment and a new cockpit with multiple function monitors.
30-mm two-barrel cannon GSh-30-2 with 250 rounds.
Warload – 4.000 kg in 10 hardpoints, normal -1.340 kg
8-10 500-,250-kg bombs, 32x 100-kg bombs, napalm tanks
rokets 8-10 ML UB-32-57 (320(252) x 57-mm)
or 8-10 240-mm, packets UR S-5 (57-mm), S-8 (80-mm), S-24 (240-mm) x S-25 (340-mm).
Air-to-air missile, Air-to-surface missile Kh-25ML, Kh-29L and S-25L
SPPU-22 pods with 23-mm cannon GSh-23L with 260 rounds
The shameless bootlicking and crawling postures the Dutch have been exhibiting in this matter lends a new meaning to the phrase “The Low Lands”.
I lost a lot of respect for the Dutch these last few weeks.
Thanks Dutch.(@ 12:16)
I think what you describe would be all pretty predictable as far as the Kiev regime and their US intelligence allies are concerned and so it probably all went according to plan except the plane didn’t fall into regime controlled territory though it was probably close.
The Robert Parry article linked by a couple of anon posters is typical CYA stuff for the CIA. Vague date, unnamed sources and no logic pattern. Standard misinformation.
And no, Anon(04 August, 2014 05:02), I don’t think it is at all obvious that the CIA is riddled with factions. What we can expect though is lots of different stories leading all over the place. That’s their job, after all!
Been trying to read news on yahoo.. But the comments are full of hitler is Putin and its all putins fault, So the state department is still paying people to post their own version of things. Looks like the US will ratchet up things even more given the chance. And to think things were dying down. Not the case at all.. with close to 100 bil for intelligence agencies their budget must be huge for disemination of propaganda. RT is a nothing compared to the amount of money the state department seems to be spending. And yet the UK version is bad enough, I am beginning to wonder if no real people bother to go to such sites anymore. I know I stopped reading most main stream sites. Even articles that are not biased are more than likely missing or fake events. No one in their right mind would go post hate messages like this. From the number of messages a huge number of people are posting. Must be sock puppets for the most part but still.. The effort to do it much be huge.
That is a truly brilliant hypothesis. Wow.
Wow. I can’t — I wouldn’t — take away a word you said, and said so beautifully. But I’m trying to apply it to my experience as an American, and not just mine bc especially if anyone’s family has been here for more than a couple of generations, they’re pretty likely to be a bit of a mutt. Not necessarily Native American (though a LOT of old families do bump into a person or two of color way back when), but various European ethnic groups. My grandchildren’s generation in our not-over-large family have ancestors from Scotland, Ireland, Belgium, Greece, England, Galicia, various parts of North America, Poland, the Netherlands, France, a bunch of German principalities, Italy and Russia that I can think of off the top — and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. But to a person, they see themselves as American and get into the “white ethnic stuff” — if they do at all — only in terms of food. So in that sense, it always was different here, and once we learned how to do it (at least among whites) moderately well, it really did become a kind of strength. But I also recognize that the North American experience is very different, and we have no right to impose it — Or. Anything. Else. — on anyone else, anywhere.
Yes, but. To my deepest chagrin, both sides of my family chose to assimilate, and hid their First Nations ancestry very well. Yet despite having hidden from me his long-dead father, my father nevertheless passed along to me his values, wisdom and knowledge. I just had no idea where they came from, or why I saw things so differently than everyone else around me, until I finally learned. Is it genetic? Part of me wants to think so and consider myself blessed to have gotten so much of it. But the other part of me thinks that, while I may certainly have inherited a predisposition to take in and live these things, I still had to be taught. I was just lucky enough to have been. Add in a respect for the connectedness of all Creation, past, present and future and your last couple of sentences encompass the learning. Thank you for them.
Good to see you commenting again! Left a message 4U on the other post re: your BRILLIANT suggestion. ;~)
Oh another thing is why is the engine on the MH17 still an older GE one instead of RR? Since Malaysia has gone with RR TotalCare service they should have been using these engines which save them 5-10% less in gas bills. Does RR also service GE engines? The difference is they spin in different directions and you can see the fins are not shaped like the RR engine. MH17 being a newer model should have also used the new Trent 800 engines. Mh370 on the hand being a much older model could have been fitted with GE90 engines originally. Something smells fishy here..
Suggest you tube site Livingonplanetz
They have persuasive argument that there was no shoot down wreckage was ma 370 hauled to site and exploded. remember the already decomposed bodies reported by first responders to Strelkov. Many more interesting data.
If the Russians have a recording of the pilot’s plea for help, then why should they release it now? If it turns out that the plane was shot down by Ukie planes, then NATO could spin the story as the actions of a “outraged” Ukie pilot who thought he was attacking Putin’s plane. If the Russians keep quiet, then maybe NATO will dig itself into a deep hole. If NATO “analysis” of the Black Boxes reveal no May-Day call, only to be contradicted by Russian tapes the following day,then NATO would stand accused of covering up this atrocity. If they are part of the cover-up then maybe they were also involved in the attack. If Russians have tapes, then they release them only when they can cause the maximum damage to the NATO-West.
It seems to me that the Saker is suggesting that among the most important factors in the outcome of this story is “what do the Russians know?” If that is the case then we should be asking: Did MH17 have a QAR (Quick Access Recorder). If so, was it found? Did the militants have possession of it? Why is no one asking about this? Why is Russia so silent about the “black box” recorders?
My understanding is that whoever possesses the QAR can access it without tampering. But I cannot find any reference online to the MH17 QAR.
To hide in open sight is sometimes best achieved by distraction.
Whatever happened to the radio traffic of the trailing planes?
What are the odds that the main crash site would be conveniently located right beside a road in an area that is mostly farmers fields and that there don’t appear to be any ground deformation (impact crater) from large pieces of metal falling from 6 miles up in the sky and striking the ground at well over 100 MPH?
This is not concrete the plane landed on – it is soft tilled loam in a country world renowned for its deep black soil.(Chernozem)
It is possible that the pilots were trying to land on the road, but given the condition of the aircraft it probably was in no condition to do much maneuvering at that point.
Add to that the pristine passports, undamaged luggage, etc. it all seems pretty fishy. Heck, some luggage sustains more damage from airport handler goons than the luggage that fell from 6 miles out of the sky! Give me a break….
@Saker re “It depends on what is found to have damaged the airliner, shrapnel or cannon shells. So far I’ve only heard speculation …”
OSCE investigator at crash site claims to have seen “machine gun” holes (he probably means cannon holes). Video shows same.
Alternative link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ze9BNGDyk4
It may also be worth noting that 3 US Presidential elections were won by those that adopted the cause of defeating Chief Tecumseh and the Confederacy as their primary platform. It was not achieved until the British traitors stabbed them in the back. The sad truth is that the War of 1812 was less a war between the US and British but more of a genocidal war against the Peoples of Turtle Island. Any time two side of a war can claim victory, the true “enemy” of both becomes evident.
“We the People” need a modern Tecumseh to guide us against our centuries long enemy. We know who they are, but have yet to figure out who we are. Once we do, it’s game over, for them. Keep the faith strong Sister, if not for ourselves, for our children and grandchildren and the future of humanity…
It is all smoke an mirrors.
When NATO was going to hit Syria, Putin said it was a red line and followed through with concrete steps positioning naval vessels in state of readiness. China sent a naval vessel as well. When France and NATO started to get cold feet, Israel launched two Submarine Launched missiles which were quickly destroyed in mid flight by Russian Air Defenses. Russians also made public the launching to let everyone know that they were serious.
USIans had two problems. China had sided with Russia and Iran in defending Assad. China had already vetoed an escalation by USIans against Iran in 2007. Even though USians were still in Iraq China reinstated a Saddam era oil contract in spite of USian interests and occupation of Iraq.
These activities ended the unipolar world economically and then the unipolar world ended militarily when Russia vetoed the NATO attack on Syria.
Fast forward, the BRICS Bank formation announcement and the Eurasian trade alliance is a mortal threat to the USian-NATO alliance. The 70 year long US$ preferred reserve currency status is done. Nations are working out different bartering systems by-passing US$ on account of its $17 trillion dollar debt interest service.
The weakest link is Russia as USians can not go frontally against China without committing harakiri to their economy. Germany is the primary NSA target and Snowden revealed that. The relationship between USians and Germany is now poisoned.
Russia had to be taught a lesson for humiliating the neocons (Brezinzki and PNAC) and the Oil Moguls (Khodorskovsky, Rothschild, Exxon, Chenney, Halliburton, etc.).
Russia has done it again. When Kiev launched Scuds at NAF, air defenses in Russia took them down harmlessly. This is the same red line in place in Syria. Why did DoD reveal firing of Scud? To approve the escalation and to signal that if Moscow is going to take them SCUDS down then NATo is gpoing to approve other more sophisticated weapons to enter the theater.
Concerning the MH17, this is easy. Find rods then the plane was hit with R-60. Find cubes to prove the plane was hit with Buk SAM (unlikely as this would have shred the plane as confetti). Find depleted uranium slugs or radioactivity in cockpit to prove 30 mm antitank fire.
This whole MH17 incident is a very deep rabbit hole, and I encourage you not to go to far down it. It will drive you crazy.
I would like to point out several issues with all theories to date.
1) Cockpit riddled with bullet holes. The cockpit section offered as evidence is from the back left window. The impacts on this section are too small for a 30mm anti-tank canon. 30 mm = 1-1/4″ – these holes are obviously smaller. The 30 mm canon would have shredded the structure with very large holes instead of the precise small round holes seen. Also, the holes are from inside the cockpit, as the edges clearly bend outwards, meaning the impact was on the right side. If the plane was flying west to east at impact, the impact was from the south.
2) R60 Missile. The R60 missile uses infrared homing and an expanding rod warhead. This warhead is intended to act like a saw and chop part of the plane off to make it crash. It would not account for the shrapnel holes.
3) Last reported position. The western flight tracking companies, such as Flightradar24 give a last position of the plane at 33,000 ft. directly over Snizhne at 4:21p. 48.0403N, 38.7728E. Pointedly, this is 15 km past to the southeast of the crashsite. Its impossible that the plane was over Snizhne and then crashed in Hrabove unless it did a 180 degree turn prior to impact. Additionally, Hrabove is the east side of the site. There is additional wreckage even further to the northwest near Rozspyne and Petropavlivka.
4) Flight Path. The Russian Ministry of Defense depicted MH17 on Flight Path L69 and diverting north towards Flight Path L980 at the Donetsk waypoint for unexplained reasons. The western sources all place it on L980. L69 passes over Donetsk. L980 passes over Kramatorsk. They converge at Tamak on the Russian border. That is a pretty big an unexplained discrepancy which no one has chosen to explain or notice.
5) Lack of missile contrail. The SBU has released an image of white smoke purporting to be a missile contrail, with a view taken from north of Torez overlooking the city. The censored BBC report included it. The image might be false, or might be smoke from artillery or industrial processes, but it is wrong to say there is no purported image. The Coup supporting website http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/07/launch-location-detected-of-missile.html has a detailed of discussion of where they think the view is from and looking towards, which is frankly not that convincing, but which is the SBU/CIA talking points (launched from Pervomaiskye north of Saur Mogila).
Me personally, I am sticking with what the Russian Ministry of Defense have dribbled out to date – Ukraine was holding air defense exercises using SU25’s and commercial flights as dummy targets and a BUK unit deployed south of Shakhtersk at Zaroschenske “accidentally”(?) fired and hit MH17.
The contrary position of the SBU/CIA is that a BUK was smuggled from Russia to Donetsk at night, driven in broad daylight (on a cloudy day) on a stolen lowboy through Makiivka, Zhures and Torez to Snizhne. Offloaded, driven to Pervomaiskyi, fired one shot and hit MH17 was quickly put back on the truck and rushed back to Russia for destruction via Lugansk. Also, the plane was hit by the missile above Snizhne and somehow fell backwards to Hrabove. And despite the eyewitnesses, there was no SU25 and no dogfight. Well, everyone can judge that for themselves.
@ Anonymous, 2014 05:16
Online translation capability. For the dominance of English speaking world has for too long left western targets voiceless, unheard, mis-translated / manpulated.
It’s one aspect of the information exchange of the web that by this conflict is revolutionizing the history of war.
In addition to this it is ultimate important for the Dutch, and all the other not-English speaking countries within the Neoliberal sphere of influence, to set up a news agency on the web——qua design the same like Reuters, but emaculated of propaganda for the Money and because of money——that collects all the relevant articles about the US-Ukrainian 2014 Coup and its aftermath, that are originally written in Ukrainian, Russian or any other language other than English, to open the doors to an über-linguistic understanding of this event by the masses, that d o n ‘ t r e a d E n g l i s h, even when they are able to! And how much do we need these masses——the majority in the democratic systems, that are abused by news agencies Reuters alike——to overthrow the rotten ruling order, by their own weapon: democracy.
It’s specifically important to understand this fact——that most of the people digest this confronting messages, only in their mother’s tongue——by those who want to make the critical mass of the public aware, so that they turn over to the the other side of the equation; our side.
re: Livingonplanetz youtube site
Very interesting comparison of MH17 “crash” and details of Operation Northwoods.
Summary as I understand it:
Singapore Air 351 overtakes MH17 and aligns with its flight path.
MH17 is ordered by ATC to drop altitude below SA351.
MH17 is now below SA351
MH17 turns off its transponder and continues flying with SA351
Radar reflective chaff is dropped to convince radar that MH17 has crashed. Chaff is seen falling in videos of crash scene.
Preplaced “wreckage” complete with already dead corpses are trucked into place along roadside.
Explosion simulates crash of plane.
This is almost identical to the plans for the proposed Operation Northwoods.
No one else has mentioned that SA351 also flew through the same “dangerous” northern route that MH17 did.
To see the actual flight path of SA351 that day see Flightradar24 here:
This silence from Singapore Air Lines about seeing the flight or an attack is deafening.
“m missing this with MH-17, but maybe I am not aware of the Dutch media coverage. What I have seen in statements from relatives so far seem all to support the official narrative”
Not really. The Dutch government and politics shows remarkable restraint in prematurely judging who did it. Their correct attitude is: we have to wait for the outcome of the investigation. Holland needs to be prudent, because it is directly involved and will have persecute the perpetraitors. My guess is that the relatives wait for the outcome of the investigation.
@Where Wolf – Thanks for your post as well. One problem with it was that it was too long. Please do not take that the wrong way, because what you had to say was incredibly important, especially the stuff about human collective consciousness.
I strongly recommend you have a read about the history of public relations, specifically about a Mr Edward Barneys – there is a documentary on youtube called “The century of the self”: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4ABAECE80928F083
Watching this will explain what we are up against. In short, you have to keep messages to bite size, so people can absorb them, otherwise they will not pay attention.
But seriously, you made my day with your post, very happy to see others are onto the same idea in terms of human consciousness and the ideas of Rupert Sheldrake.
Please know I agree with what you have written. I personally try to contribute by posting in whatever mainstream media discussion thread I can find, but keeping messages short and sharp.
I hope you find the link I have provided helpful in helping others see the truth.
As for Saker and your theory, yes to machine gun fire to the cockpit, not so sure about the missile leading up to it.
One thing that gives me great hope is that others are seeking the truth, and more importantly, are trying their best to share it with the many many good people on this earth, we are the majority.
If you ever wonder why so many are not willing to listen to the truth and reason, please look at the history and theory of public relations, it is very powerful stuff, know your enemy, fight fire with fire.
If your blog is to serve as an instrument in revealing the Truth in this (or any other) matter, then an effort must be made to present only the Truth. In this particular case, this means avoiding the multitude of speculations and theories about what occurred, and focusing on the known facts, together with documenting how those facts are known, and perhaps including some estimate of the confidence of that knowledge. The Truth might then emerge from such a body of knowledge.
The alternative, where there are endless ramblings about what might have happened, only dilutes your efforts at revealing the Truth. Without a great amount of rational discipline your blog will be reduced to the level that is commonly available, and will become part of the background noise that is added to the Truth signal. Posts such as your “Baseless Hypothesis” with most of its comments, only serve to confuse and obfuscate, not clarify. I don’t think I am being excessive in this criticism.
In contrast, your earliest post about this event, where you sketched out both what was known and what was probably the case, was an excellent summary. Of course, it was incomplete, and there may have been errors, but it was a good beginning. That sort of approach needs to be continued and refined. Information needs to be accumulated, critically examined, summarized, and re-summarized as additional information becomes known and understood.
I am tempted to add what might be relevant technical information to this discussion, but without a disciplined structure that can accept and incorporate it, I suspect that it will be just lost in the noise. For example, very early on I pointed out that the hypothesis that MH-17 was attacked by a surface-to-air missile was just the hypothesis that was suggested by Ukraine, possibly as a diversion from the Truth. At that time I suggested that it should be identified as such, and that other possibilities be listed also, including that of an air-to-air missile attack. It took the Russian’s revealing their ATC radar information to start to counter that Ukrainian diversion. At this time there are still other diversions that are operative, and they are effective because there is a lack of rational discipline.
For example, the following questions should be systematically addressed:
What ACTUAL EVIDENCE is there that:
– an Su-25 attacked MH-17?
– an R-60 missile was used?
– a 30mm cannon was used?
– an attacking aircraft needed radar direction to locate MH-17?
– an Ukrainian aircraft attacked MH-17?
If, in your blog, you ask questions like these, you will get answers, and you can then, in an organized manner, distill those into summaries that suggest further questions, and by that iterative process, converge on the Truth.
@ Mohamed – greetings to you and peace to your household and Shi’a brothers.
To all: I think the ‘relatives questioning official MH17 account’ is a serious dog not barking here, along withe Ukies dragging out the ATC recordings released (even a final scream of ‘they’re shooting at us’ by the pilots which would likely not exist with a Buk blowing up near the plane but would be consistent with the missile/machine gun fire hypothesis would destroy the MSM/Ukie Narrative). 30 mike mike fire raking the cockpit also seems unlikely from 3-4 km distance even for a supremely skilled (Polish? South African merc?) Su-25 pilot. Unless as another commenter pointed out the stricken/doomed B777 was already going down after an R-60 hit to the engine/wing and the panicked Ukie pilot finished it off at a significantly lower altitude. Russia COULD plausibly be holding back the remaining piece of what its radars saw in order to give NATO/Ukies more time to implicate themselves trying to cover up evidence of a Su-25 at close proximity to the B777 around 17,000 feet as it was spinning/going down near terminal velocity at 250 mph.
I noticed the Ukies tried to preemptively spin the flight recorder analysis and got moderately rebuked by the Dutch. Like everyone else I pray to God the Russians managed to copy the recorder’s contents before handing it over and are ready to share what they have with the Malays to create a ‘neutral’ non-NATO voice in all of this to prevent a Ukie/NATO scrubbing of the ATC/flight recorder evidence. Indeed the longer the Ukies, Dutch and Brits drag out the release the more likely it is that they fear the Russians releasing an unredacted version and the more guilty they look. Moscow is clearly letting the Ukies and NATO intel agencies trying to manipulate the contents sweat on this one.
I also concur with those who say given Russia’s history of intel usage it’s far more likely to use any true ATC recording as leverage than release it publically thereby blowing the State Dept and NATO’s last shred of credibility to smithereens.
Remember Russia believes it has to do business with these psychopaths in the future and always believes in giving its opponents an ‘off ramp’ or way to ‘save face’. Russia has enough Asiatic influence in its Eurasian history that the Asian concept of ‘face’ is still recognize there whereas DC has become a complete clown show where totally contradictory nonsense can be spewed at any time without shame. The US on the other hand at present appears to not be giving Putin any face saving ‘out’ whatsoever besides total betrayal of Novorossiya and humiliation in front of his people. This is how small conflicts like an Austro-Hungary/Serbia war turn into global conflagurations, when neither side is willing or able to back down.
Thank you, my brother. And yes, that war, and the French and Indian War before it, spelled the end of the wholeness and health of the land and the people of Turtle Island, but not the end, not really. Your words are very wise, but I do have faith in the children: they’re more aware, more comfortable with themselves and their heritage. I just hope the great wisdom beneath all the trappings is truly being taken in, and that we can all teach others. They’re such simple lessons, and at a profound level I really don’t understand why they’re so hard to learn; I’ve always wondered at that. Your words are beautiful as well as wise, and I’m keeping them. Thank you.
LiveATC for Kiev is down since May 30th, but there are others in the area. Mayday should have shown up, I think. It’d be hard to believe that everybody missed it.
@Anonymous barking Chetnik ;)
04 August, 2014 11:17
A few things I should respond to…
Gotovina is no more my hero than is Raznatovic a hero of yours, am I right?
I came to the conclusion that the people around Sisak and Pretrinje in 1940-41, very roughly divided fifty-fifty between Croat and Serb, all rushed to join Tito’s side irrespective of their ethnicity (a stupid, reductive and mind-altering concept to begin with). That was the story of the people who lived there, including most of my family, relayed to me as a boy and it beats any agenda driven history book ever written. It was OUR story and we will remember it even when it is unpopular. My ancestors mobilized, Croat alongside Serb, in respect of the tradition of the people who lived along the Ottoman border for centuries and who, for the most part and despite Church intrigues, stood shoulder to shoulder against invading armies. I suppose the view from Nis or Varazdin was different. You can choose to see Croatia or any other nation as monolithic but this is plainly an incorrect view conditioned by years of propaganda.
I should also mention the call I got from my sobbing father in Sisak in 94′ as he stood next to the ruins of his childhood home. That had an effect on me too.
Let me ask you this — why is it that every regime on the planet is run by gangsters but the Belgrade-Yugoslav regime, alone by itself, is remembered by Serbs and self-described Yugoslavs as some kind of Camelot? You only have to think about it for three seconds and you’ll know my assessment is correct.
Again – how do you conclude that the one and only non-gangster regime in history was the one centred on Belgrade?
A lot of people were forced out by fascist gangs, the police or their neighbours, tolerated and encouraged by Zagreb as they were tolerated and encouraged elsewhere by Belgrade. Shall we get into a pissing contest? If you try to explain how it was justified I will laugh in your face. I know the anguish of some of these people because we briefly sheltered a mixed family of refugess in our home in Canada during the war. When you live with these people, shocked refugees from unimaginable grotesquery (they would never tell us what happened), alongside you and in your home, the political bullshit gets cut down very fast and you focus, almost desperately, on the things that are real.
But here’s the rub concerning ethnic cleansing — all of it was engineered by NATO and CFR Supremacists because fascists HATE it when people live together and needed to do everything they could to keep us at each others throats. The fake stories about Croat-Serb emnity in the Anglo-Zionist media were relentless both during and after the war. One of the slightly funny commonalities between Croats and Serbs living in Canada during the war was their utter contempt for what was written in the press. Do you think the media got it right or do you think they were manipulating the situation like they always do? I don’t have the time or the energy to argue who did what to whom but violence against innocent people is never justified. I was sad and and I was furious when the bombs began falling on Belgrade but I didn’t see any Croatians celebrating it although I’m sure there were some.
For what it’s worth, I am just as sick of Croatian victimhood as I am of Serb. Nothing good ever comes from a narrow or distorted view. You need to account for the whole picture if you want to speak truthfully. I am sure as much as I’ve pissed off a few Serbs I’ve pissed off even more Croats but that’s ok. Croatia is not homogenous society and we have always argued these issues the same as everyone else. Am I confused or are some of my sentiments contradictory? Holy shit YES! How many people do you know who have it exactly right? Do you believe yourself to be one of them? Even where you disagree will you acknowledge I am making an effort to discern what is real and what is fantasy?
I recall a story that was continuously repeated during the Cold War; of a British ambassador to Yugoslavia who was said to proclaim his relief upon “returning to the West” whenever he crossed the Serb-Croat border. I can tell you plenty of Croats loved this horse-shit propaganda because it spoke to their fears and aspirations in the way that good propaganda always does. Shall I also apologize for the stupid people who buy the propaganda on the CBC or BBC? The point here is to escape your lifetime of programming by recognizing you are living in a tradition of lies that is thousands of years old. They hold the key. Changing our opinions is literally just as difficult as changing your DNA. On a daily basis I hope to piss off Canadians, Brits, Americans and Zionists alike. Anyone who is too comfortable with their fake history is an appropriate target, Croats and Serbs included. Sociopaths get away with murder if they are not consistently and energetically opposed at all times. Sometimes you have to do so in spite of yourself and God knows I try. These things are hard to overcome but I insist on doing it because my lifetime of experience tells me it’s the right thing to do — before the shooting starts or never at all. Maybe I have held onto my hard headedness because that is also a tradition of both our peoples. Am I right? We still have more in common and no propagandistic fairy-tale will make me look past that most essential detail.
So, if it happened again, would you do anything differently? Would you point your gun at the parasites or would you point it at me? I know that if a platoon of Serbian Tigers was watching from behind you would shoot me and curse me and get drunk with them afterward. Only later, if you are a decent person and I’m sure that you are, would it dawn on you what you had done and perhaps maybe then you would shoot yourself in the head the way dozens of returning soldiers do every single day. Shall I tell you about the immediately forgotten Croatian ‘heroes’ who sat down on a toilet with a gun in their mouth and blew out their brains (while Gotovina was sunning himself in Majorca or the Canaries) or shall I tell you about the suicidal Chetnik I met one night in a Brampton, Ontario bar? You know I believe I met him so I could save his life. These experiences were real and so were the tears.
I know that anything can happened when the bullets starts to fly. In that moment I will rush to the place that is safest for me and my loved ones or we will die. I think of it when I see the pictures from Syria or Donbass. Of course what happens in such a moment depends on the foundation we’ve built before the decision is forced on us; here at the Saker blog and everywhere else. Why don’t we forget about counting the slights and agree to not repeat our foolishness and maybe even set an example for how people can get past thousands of years of programming by the self-interested sick people who still — somehow — manage to keep us down.
Thanks for the many positive responses including the links.
To First Nations Anonymous — I remember when the Canadian army was sent into Oka/Kanesatake in 1990, roughly one year before the events of former Yugoslavia transpired. That was the first time I began to get an inkling of how ignorant and evil the people who run this country really are.
I would encourage every proud Canadian to look into the genocide including mass child rape that was used to destroy the original inhabitants of this land and how it continued right up to the 1990’s. I don’t want your shame (nor am I qualified to ask for it) but I do want you to consider honouring the souls of the people who came before and still move beside you. When you do, you will see, how the weight that is upon you is suddenly lifted.
The reason Canada and Israel get along so well is because of our shared history of settler colonialism.
Thank you Where-Wolf. So well said!
I liked it the first way…it made alot of sense.
To writer @ 19:59
About Saker’s Blog.
Sounds like you should start your own blog writer…only no one would go there..
As someone did mention above and I have repeated here once or twice, the Ukrainians have an upgraded SU-25; in fact, two different versions, the SU-25M1 and the Su-25M1UB. These planes have a ceiling of up to 10,000 meters and more than enough speed to catch MH17 which was traveling 100mph slower than their maximum speed.
So there is no need for any acrobatics on the part of the pilots of said aircraft to reach MH17 and attack it.
Also, once the plane has been hit once by whatever means – air-to-air missile, ground missile or cannon fire – it will lose air speed and altitude rapidly and be easily within range of said fighter jet within a minute.
As for the size of the alleged cannon holes, at this point all that is speculation. It is also all speculation as to what kind of air-to-missile MIGHT have been used, what its warhead might have contained, and what its arming mechanism might have been, and how it might have been directed toward the aircraft.
In the absence of unbiased independent investigation of the wreckage – which is now problematic given the Ukraine moving its troops into the area – no one is going to ever know what was used and how (assuming no additional data is released by any party).
In any event, until a “smoking gun” is released by any party, the damage is done. The militia have been blamed, Russia has been blamed and as far as the Western media is concerned, it’s all over but the sanctions as far as MH17 is concerned.
Might as well move on. In the end, this crash means nothing. Russia is still going to have to eventually declare a no-fly zone over Eastern Ukraine and take out the Ukraine military in that area (or send them fleeing back to Kiev.)
After that, things will depend on whether Russia is prepared to draw a line against any foreign military forces entering Ukraine. Putin should make clear that any such attempt will result in an immediate invasion and annexation of Ukraine, regardless of the consequences geopolitically.
That’s critically important, because no ground-based missile (or shrapnel therefrom) hitting the airliner could possibly have produced firing into the cockpit from both sides of the plane. It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides, that brought the plane down, in that circumstance. This is Haisenko’s main discovery, by his pointing that out. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions. Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile.
Peter Haisenko posted an extremely high-resolution image from that photo which he used, and it shows unequivocally that some of the bullet-holes were inbound while others of them were outbound: …. http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814
@Where-Wolf – don’t see how most of your epic saga has anything to do with MH17. But anyway, re Canada: You forgot to mention NATO’s 2011 criminal onslaught on Libya, which was led by a Canadian Air Force officer, Canadian warplanes participated in the bombing of Libya, and a Canadian warship was at the forefront of the military intervention. Well done Canada, for helping to convert Africa’s most prosperous country into the bankrupt and violent hellhole that it is today.
I agree with Saker’s account of the take down but would add that if the US (CIA) is ruthless enough to take down an airliner for political purposes they would also have considered which was the best one to take down as timing was of no significace.
Consider the Hromadske TV (Financed by the US and the Netherlands) call for genocide in Donbass – Netherlands aren’t pro Donbass! Then there was the handing over by Malaysia of the black boxes to the country with the largest number of deaths (Netherlands) and their immdiate handing over of the boxes to UK for analysis and editing. Choosing this aircraft would enable the sort of cover-up envisaged if necessary. Already I hear reports of investigators saying “nothing out of the ordinary on the tape” – anyone else heard that? so the plan has worked so far.Russia need to engage with the relatives of the dead. I remember the Lockerbie event and the relatives of the victims of that flight just kept going until they got to the bottom of it (or so it seemed).
A sligght revision of Saker’s version.
Is it conceivable that a BUK was fired and exploded at the front of the airliner incapacitating the crew but not damaging the airworthiness of the aircraft – I read BUKs are for smaller aircraft and would not down a 777.
The intention was to down the 777 in Militia territory to place the blame on them so as the aircraft continued on autopilot the Su25 launched the R60 to finish it off?
Just posing the question. Even more of an amateur than Saker!
While a bit of a longer comment was attempted and lost re: the hidden truth about DU (depleted uranium) use by NATO in the former Yugoslavia, let this article simmer re: Libya for now. Below is the headline, subline and the most important final statement but feel free go review the comments and article for the bigger picture since it was the UN’s fault apparently. The ultimate prize is the F-35…
NATO’s Canadian commander in Libya ‘disappointed’ with lack of progress
UN oversight following Gadhafi’s overthrow insufficient to the task, Charles Bouchard says
By Susana Mas, CBC News Posted: Jul 29, 2014 8:45 PM ET Last Updated: Jul 29, 2014 10:55 PM ET
Bouchard retired in April 2012 after more than 37 years in the Royal Canadian Air Force. He is now chief executive for Lockheed Martin Canada, the maker of the F-35 fighter jets.
“This whole MH17 incident is a very deep rabbit hole, …
I would like to point out several issues with all theories to date.
1) Cockpit riddled with bullet holes. The cockpit section offered as evidence is from the back left window. The impacts on this section are too small for a 30mm anti-tank canon. 30 mm = 1-1/4″ – these holes are obviously smaller. The 30 mm canon would have shredded the structure with very large holes instead of the precise small round holes seen. Also, the holes are from inside the cockpit, as the edges clearly bend outwards, meaning the impact was on the right side. If the plane was flying west to east at impact, the impact was from the south.” ….. http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814 ….. Evidence Is Now Conclusive: Two Ukrainian Government Fighter-Jets Shot Down Malaysian Airlines MH17. “It was Not a ‘Buk’ Surface to Air Missile “That’s critically important, because no ground-based missile (or shrapnel therefrom) hitting the airliner could possibly have produced firing into the cockpit from both sides of the plane. It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides, that brought the plane down, in that circumstance. This is Haisenko’s main discovery, by his pointing that out. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions. Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile.”
You are a paranoid simpleton. Paranoid because you are a simpleton. It’s not your fault.
Firstly, I’d wish you would throw out
these annoying ”Captchas”. One can
never read them, and nobody on the
net likes them.
Anyway, your hypothesis is correct.
Local Malaysian headlines on 6 Aug :
I do have a more accurate hyphothesis in Twitter FLGovCand_gig
it would become the EU inside job combined with the kidnapping of 297 live PAX who are believed to have died in the MH17 accident.
«depressurization would have been immediate and catastrophic» whether much of anything used as going mach 0.87/86 at that flight level would stuff air into the fuselage structure — i buy your line of thought Frogfoot is possible yet much of anything hit it going like that an Intelligence Analyst who did intercepts would need to call in Airframe Structural Failure Forensics — the debris-field should have been some kilometers across not all tightly packed on a few hundred feet