Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko gives a press conference in Brussels on Wednesday, January 12 after a meeting between NATO and Russia. Both sides have expressed readiness for dialogue following escalating tensions in the east of Ukraine.
This is still a live broadcast. Should there be a transcript available, it will be added.
“This NATO centric security has to come to an end.”
. . . and there is the showdown. When, how, where are to be decided, but NATO cannot decide European security at the expense of Russia, nor can it be the security framework for global security.
If Russia is to exist, they have to finish off NATO in East Europe.
I don’t see how talks ad infinitum will change NATO’s policy.
NATO exists on the mission of the ultimate destruction of Russia. It gets stronger and bolder by the hour in this mission.
Restraint by Russia is interpreted as weakness.
The fear of loss of hegemony by the US and the mindless robotic and (expendable) actions of NATO as threat to Russia’s existence are on the face of it all existential threats that must be neutralized.
We have the calendar as factor. The Chinese Olympics.
Shock Therapy is necessary to change the situation.
I agree on every point.
I would like to add that there is something else going on: NATO is the military arm of the transnational elite. This elite, the upper class, will never ever give up their privileges. We are in a crossroads. Or Russia and most of humanity (99.99%), or NATO and the chaos it will bring to the whole world…
Russia will have in its hands, once again, the honor, and the pains, to make historic changes…
Exactly. As the late John Kenneth Galbraith noted, “People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage”.
Be not surprised with these Two Russian meetings with the US and NATO. The issues discussed and publicized will generate so much disgust within-in and among European members of the NATO among others, it may well result in the fracture of NATO and the EU. We wait to hear the spill over. Why. Many would argue that Stoltenberg was Not Authorized to speak on their behalf ra, ra, ra.
Those who have installed American Missiles targeting Russia will be rattling in their cages as they will come to realize that the US will not defend them is Russia takes action against their Missiles. It will be time for the Rats to bail out of the sinking ship as they experience failure in Kazakhstan.
Zil, why should Russia always have this honour? Why not the people of EU$A get the honour by saving themselves?
Ah, this is a very interesting question.
Right NOW, the US has the opportunity to make THE decision. If they say to NATO that changes have to take place, now, they can claim in the future that, together with Russia, they took the most important decision of all times. But, will they?
The people of the US have not been invited for the meetings…
Ha? Who was Wendy Sherman? An alien from the Galctic Empire, never mind Mars too close? If the people in the US believe the BS fed by their media why should the rest of the world give a damn as to what they think? Thanks
The people of US are too busy ripping the fruits of empire to care. No servant is greater than his master…
Perfect. The whole issue of Zionists, USA, NATO, Anglos, Nazis, Feminism, Woke, LGBTQIA+, Protestant Church and Church of Rome, is the existence of Russia. These causes have the power to unite Hillary, Merkel, German female elite and French leaders, Nazi losers, Wall Street, Globalists, Kabbalah, and even Russian feminists and LGBTs around the same cause. It is a determined, formidable and terrifying force. All of us here on the blog need to mature and come out of nihilism and assume: the only target and goal of all of them is the fragmentation of Russia. The destruction of the Union of Soviet States must continue, with Russia fragmenting like the tiny Baltic States. Putin was the giant boulder that came their way. But they have eyes like the hobbit Gollum, obsessed with the “precious” demise of the “overbearing and medieval” Russian Federation.
Supposedly, Russia is considering “counter-moves.” One US news site states that the Russians are considering moving their powerful military armament over to Cuba and Venezuela.
Sounds like a terrific move. Suddenly, after 60 years of the US economic, military dictates, they’d see what it feels like with Russian weaponry “in the US’s backyard.” Cuba is just a few short miles off the shores of the US.
Let’s see what the D.C. and the US’s Financial Center in New York would feel about that.
Goodbye partners! Diplomacy failed and we all knew how it would end.
I think this is the moment in history when the whole free world needs to speak up and stand against the hegemon and that means war.
Western world masquerading as democratic and progressive is nothing more than a crime syndicate, and as such, do not entertain any civilized diplomatic manners, which leaves only one way to deal with it and that is brute force.
One always squirms as Russia continues to address US/NATO as ‘Partner’ when those US/NATO ‘partners’ are being so disrespectful. With a sneer and smarmy look, the condescending school-teacher’ish manner, the US NATO side preach non-interference while by proxy blatantly attack Russia behind it’s back. See Kazakhstan as the latest example. Turkey is just as bad.
I have to give massive ‘spect for Russia, having the good grace, patience, and steadfastness to continue to seek a peaceful solution with manners and textbook diplomacy in the face of such veiled aggression and condescension.
That patience is exhausted now.
Man when Russia lets lose, with all that pent up frustration, and anger, the short, sharp shock US/NATO will be set straight with is going to be epic. A knockout punch.
Unfortunately, you are correct.
All this talk is like trying to negotiate with the termites.
At some point you either call in the pest exterminators or give up your house.
The Russians have done well getting back on their feet after the collapse of the USSR.
However, they bear some of the responsibility as well.
There are two forces against them at the moment.
The hard core agressive bullying from certain parties; and the go-with-the-flow crowd that bend like the grass in the wind. It is this latter group (of small statelettes) that need an equally strong wind from the other direction in order to stand straight.
The time for talk is over. If Russia wants to take on the role then act.
Nato may claim it is open for states to join.
Well, in as much as its mission is to knuckle Russia, then these states need to understand the ‘responsibility’ side of the equation. There is a responsibility to live in peace with your neighbors.
Military options may be useful in surgical strikes on key offending infrastrucutre.
But there are broader means available.
For example, double the price of Russian gas to Nato countries and call it a Nato-defence-surcharge (tax) to help fund the Russian military budget needed to defend Russia from said Nato etc. And payment in Chinese Yuan or Russian Rubles, or better still, gold and silver. There will be a couple of years of adjustment but then Nato will soon slink off into cold freezing winter of history.
“All this talk is like trying to negotiate with the termites.”
Do you assume that negotiation took place or was going to take place, and that was the purpose of the Russian Federation publically delivering a notice of intent on 17/12/21 ?
Do you believe that war is limited to things that go bang and/or that the “Cold War” was/is cold and that it “ended” ?
“The whole free world”?
Where would that be? Look around you.
The Event 201 simulation that coincidentally became the Covid pandemic that Klaus Schwab openly gleefully describes as a “great opportunity” for “The Great Reset” where we (but not the elites) “own nothing but are happy” in a total surveillance state where Klaus notes our “digital and biological identities will be merged”.
See Austria & Israel, Canada, Italy, France, Australia & New Zealand – millions driven out of jobs and businesses destroyed of you chose to not take a product that reduces illness intensity for a few months but risks side effects and according to CDC & a strong of articles including the current Lancet – does not reduce risk transmission for the latest variant.
The agenda is increasingly obvious to many while many others hunker down into a Stockholm Syndrome of stronger faith in Fauci & Gates etal. Thus families, friends and communities split along narrative to believe.
Russia stands alone as relatively free. China is not. Belarus is debatable. Syria is in chronic war.
Russian expectations of “security guarantees” from the USA and their NATO hangers-on is a fools errand. Obviously these “negotiations” never had any chance of success. The question is where does this leave Russia? What happens next?
The moment of truth for Russia has arrived today. No more talking.
My best guess is the RF have planned for “what next” before negotiations even began. The result of these negotiations are what was expected.
The RF will mostly likely react quickly. They will set an achievable objective with a short time frame. They will avoid NATO article 5. There is little reason to occupy anything when the desired outcome is the elimination of the aggressor’s offensive capabilities. They may move to protect Russian populated land spaces that are outside of the RF borders at this time.
The Empire will be powerless to stop any of this. Once the Russian objectives are achieved (and they will be) there will be another attempt at negotiations and hopefully the Empire isn’t as foolish or arrogant this time around.
This my best guess for what comes next but who knows? The Russians are always full of surprises.
Article 5 does not protect the USA. Do you honestly think that Holland or Luxembourg will attack Russia if Russia hits the USA?
I don’t think Russia has any interest in attacking the U.S. at this time. To me the Russian objective is to protect their country and interests from offensive weapons put in place by the Empire and its European straps. This objective can be reached with minimal force and negotiation at this time IMHO.
Russia is not in a total war scenario with the Empire at this time nor is it in Russia’s interests to become involved in one. This is a bankrupt, overextended Empire that is losing influence by the day. Russia need only breath on it and the Empire will fall under its own weight. Russia and China are concerned with what happens after that. It is the Empire that desperately is seeking conflict. That’s why the Empire places offensive weapons so close in the first place.
It’s not a ‘fool’s errand’; it’s called ‘due diligence”. I proceed from the premise that Moscow knew that any substantive change of course with respect to US/NATO policy toward Russia by diplomatic means was an extremely unrealistic expectation and wrote the two Dec 17. treaty drafts knowing full well they would be rebuffed. In fact, I believe they were written in such a way as to be rejected. It looks like Russia had enough of the bad faith and double-dealing from the West and decided on a riskier but potentially much more productive course of action.
but it had to be done, and in public, for the record so that people can see how idiotic these western arrogant buffoons are. What happens next is on the neocons and the vassals in Europe.
@Larchmonter445 – “If Russia is to exist, they have to finish off NATO in East Europe.”
I dont see Russia directly attacking Nato as that would lead to a major war and high casualties on both sides; instead I see Putin making various military technical moves to put more pressure on US/NATO.
Same for Ukraine I dont see Russia invading or taking any action unless Kiev attacks Donbass or Nato moves in heavy equipment or builds up infrastructure.
What moves could Putin take is anyones guess, perhaps deploying the Poseidon close to US, moving more systems into Kaliningrad, even looking into bases/ports in the Americas or flying regular Tupolev Tu-160 missions to the likes of Venezuela or Cuba.
Whatever the action we are in a dangerous phase.
My POV is not exclusively direct combat. However, NATO is a military alliance. It exists to win wars. However, the wars it has fought are all a joke, against weak and defenseless target nations.
What the NATO forces has never faced is a range of weapons, many asymmetrical and some not seen as yet.
A war of EW tools would be a good start. Black out their communications systems. Infiltrate their cyber systems.
Disruption produces fear.
Challenge their spy planes and knock down UAVs and drones.
Expose their degeneracy in social matters.
Expose their corrupt officials.
There are a range of tools that can be used to finish them in East Europe.
Which comes first…The internal collapse of the US…or War in the Ukraine?
I can report this:Moral among the White US Troops in the US Army is very low…and dropping….
The question is, how does Russia proceed regarding Ukraine.
The aegis ashore in poland and Romania are there as a matter of fact.
But in Ukraine there is the ability to pre empt the positioning of weapon systems there, will Russia do so, and how could it guarantee that this space will not be used by NATO for military aggression against Russia?
If weapons systems are placed in Ukraine that threaten Russia, they will be destroyed.
And the Aegis Ashore systems in East Europe are doomed if not moved.
It’s just a matter of time and timing.
Russia is estimating the aura (like what epileptics sense before a convulsion) of impending danger from NATO. When that aura appears, the Russians will obliterate the threats.
Presently, the talk is hot and mean from NATO and the US. But it is far from the aura of deadly threat.
Things can swiftly change, but most analysts feel that the Olympics sets a calendar for any Russian action.
Meanwhile, Syria, Ukraine, like Kazakhstan, are areas where the US and West will stir to create more problems for Russia to solve.
There are no limits or calendar that slow the US as it fights for its unipolar power and hegemony over Europe.
Threatening Russia on its borders requires tax $$$$$…If the US collapses internally, there will be no money to threaten Russia on it’s borders.
Keep this in mind:As the shitstain-in-the-pants Biden Presidency threatens Russia on it’s borders…..it also threatens the US White Working Class everyday through its mouthpieces CNN…MSNBC…CBS…NBC….and ABC. Tucker Carlson has been forced to cover this everyday now…..It’s called a two front War…
I think the base in Poland is still under construction. But agreed, they both have to go, Romania first as it is operational.
I agree with LM. Russia said there would be a “military/technical” response. The vulnerabilities of the US and Europe are largely infrastructure deficits. Exploiting these weaknesses would be the “technical” response from Russia. Those targets include: water and food supplies, chemical plants, energy grids and pipelines, bridges, tunnels, and ports, supply chain backlogs, electricity, banking, etc. Nato’s belligerence is for the purpose of making Russia over-extend herself economically. I see Russia’s counter as a mirrored approach to make the US over extend itself economically, and the chief way to do that, is to halt the primacy of the US dollar and to create expensive mayhem in the US and Europe.
The tools have already been prepared and are discussed in various articles. Russia waited patiently for as long as this because it was not strong enough to have a devastating response. Now it is. There are so many advances Russia has made, and will continue to surge ahead of the hubristic but limited threats of the USA and is poodles in NATO. It is time for the USA∕NATO to be stopped in at least some part of their catastrophic takeover of the “security” of certain countries while damning and denigrating others.
Russia could be forced to shut off all gas to Europe, because of NATO tension in Ukraine and Poland.
China could accidentally destroy a US com Sat in space.
China could accidentally ram a US nuclear-sub in the South China Sea.
China could sell its US bonds and Dollar reserve to pay for the damages, thus collapsing the US Economy.
North Korea could attack South Korea. China would then have to invade and “protect” Taiwan.
A Philippine maned container ship could accidentally block the Suez Canal.
Kazakhstan could send Israeli forces out of Asia, and end export of Uranium and Oil to western Nations.
Iran could bomb US Troops in Iraq, and let the Iraqi finish the job, while Iran takes on Saudi Arabia.
Yemen could attack Saudi Arabia and the Saudi kingdoms along with the Iranian forces.
Syria could launch a campaign against US troops in Syria.
When the US Forces in the Middle East have vanished, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Yemen could take on Israel.
Greece could shoot down Turkish Fighter jets violating Greek territory and call for NATO article 5.
Russia could supply Missiles to Cuba and Venezuela. Venezuela could end its oil export to western Nations
West African nations could attack French and British Troops, while ending its Uranium and Oil Export.
The Undersea Data Transmission cable between Europe and USA could fail.
The undersea Power cable from Norway to Britain could fail.
The undersea Power cable from France to Britain could fail.
The bridges over the Bosporus Strait could fail thereby blocking the seaway into the Black sea.
The bridge over the Great belt could fail thereby hinder the seaway into the Baltic Sea.
New York could be hit by a Tsunami arriving from the Atlantic Ocean, Just like happened to Japan.
The same could happen for Washington, Florida, LA, Seattle and London.
HAARP in Alaska could be hacked and send arctic frost down the US corn belt in the spring.
You know s**t like this happens all the time without Russia firing one shot.
Sorry, but some things that you wrote are simply impossible. It would be possible if the world were sovereignly divided into enemy blocs. But it is not. Today, there are no labor unions, but mafia unions that work in the field with the services. There is no more border, the market is open. And there is a global elite with global plans. It does not matter to that elite whether the border will go 50 or 500 km further or not, it is important that orders crucial to the 2030 Agenda are obeyed. What is happening at the local nivo is left to the mafia, so to speak. It doesn’t matter if one part is run by one mafia or another, if they pay a racket to the bosses. If you understand. Criminal union. Like East Indian Company. The boss will not allow subordinate “mafia organizations” to completely destroy the sheep populations which they own. Sheep are numbers on the stock market. So they can be weakened, divided but not destroyed. You heard Bezos what the plans are ….. the elite will live on earth, and the poor will work and dig on less pleasant planets. English Colonial Consciousness. How much the Russian oligarchy deal with the City? See for yourself. None were arrested. And those who were killed were definitely not wack by the Russians. Look at the whole thing as the strengthening of a mafia clan taking their territories back from a clan that has expanded a lot and cannot control the situation. That is why bosses are worried and will allow a better division of spheres for life to move on. So woudle be situation in Asia, South America soon, etc. It is not worth for global bosses giving too much power to one mafia because they could get hurt. That is why America has weakened in thirty years and has gone from being the biggest creditor to being the biggest debtor. That’s what the bosses did. Deep state will have to remove its fingers from certain parts. In order for more obedient people to take the lead of the American gang on the ground, As it used to be Soviet. And to me, Biden looks like an American Gorbachev. Russia will get Ukraine and the Baltics and Transnitria on a platte. Erdogan seems to have been given the role of reducing Turkey to the size of Anatolia. So Russia will soon have three polarities on its borders: Greek-Turkish, Armenian-Azerbaijani and Turkish-Tajik. Some samples that work do not change. Life teaches us Serbs that we will soon become “bigger” BUT also get a competitor as well. Balance of power.
djole wrote: Sorry, but some things that you wrote are simply impossible.
My Comment: We were told that it was caused by nature or human errors when it happened in Japan, China, Italy, Egypt etc.
djole wrote: It would be possible if the world were sovereignly divided into enemy blocs. But it is not.
My comment: you forget that if you attack Nation after Nation, at some time you will have a lot of enemies with one goal, revenge. United or not.
djole wrote: That is why America in 30 years and has gone from being the biggest creditor to being the biggest debtor.
My comment: NO, The Nations who stashed their national Gold deposits in the US during WWII was the biggest creditors. Today the US have used up this Gold stash, + indebted America.
Maybe I should have started my previous post by writing: Sac, ON
……as that would lead to a major war……..
No it won’t. People in the Netherlands or Belgium, for example are not interested in the Baltic States at all. And that is all that Russia needs to neutralize, because if anything happens, the attack will start from there. NATO leaders will not be able to sell them this brief entry into Ukraine as something to mobilize them. But the Anglo-Americans will establish themselves in old places in Western Europe they have almost lost in the failed wars of the last twenty years. In any case, Russia has given enough time to the French and German elites to do things… but it is a failed project. Lisbon Vladivostok will never come to life. The Anglo-Americans would rather burn the whole of Europe than allow it. The Ukrainian economy has been sucked out, the energy of the population. The parasites got theirs. The Russian leadership is now in line to receive the dead corp, and again through reforms that will last for years, try to return it to normal. Why? In order for Gorby’s Germany to catch up with Russia and China. Missed politics, that is why I belive, war suit also the Russian leadership to hide its failure and declare success by returning Ukraine to its lap. Promising new reformed Soviet. I bet that none of the people on the boards of companies will change, that there will be no nationalization of Anglo-American shares, that there will be no return of the power of the Russian ruble to the Russian people.
@ Zenith on January 12, 2022
“What moves could Putin take is anyones guess…”
“…The current deployments are versatile. They keep Russia’s options open and therefore keep the defender guessing.”
Keir Giles, Associate Fellow at Chatham House.
destroying Idlib would be a great start. The US/UK have all their pet terrorists there, its the end of them all if they do. S500 in Venezuela, hypersonics in Cuba. S400 appear on first line of island defence for China. Poseidon announced as in position on both US coasts. release of information of corrupt US senators and the Govt, thus humiliating them. The Russians also now have their hands on a pentagon funded biowarfare lab in Almaty thanks to MI6s useless Kazakstan cock up. I’m just thinking off the top of my head, I feel sure Russia has weapons we dont even know about. Can they fry the nukes operating systems in Romania without even setting foot in the place? I think there is plenty of choice, some more appropriate than others. The Americans are utterly detestable as they have shown every day this week, vile Russophobic creatures, to hell with them.
My guess is that the Russians will put the squeeze on the 3B+P (at the least) first.
A polite request for them to remove all the missile sites that Russia deems unacceptable will be the first step, along with a deadline. It will be announced that if they are not removed it will be considered as a hostile act.
When they do not comply, all links with them will be severed- gas, electricity, roads, shipping etc. along with a notice that if they are not removed Russia will remove it for them.
NATO/EU/US will be forced to make up for any shortfalls caused by this severance. If they don’t the alliance will be exposed for what it is. A predatory system.
If the sites are not dismantled the next step could be destruction of these sites either by sabotage or direct surgical strikes.
It will all be over in an hour, so NATO will not have time to react militarily.
We will then be back to the situation of Jan 10 2022.
This is exactly how a see the not so distant future. It certainly is a clean way of making necessary changes.
@ Larchmonter445 on January 12, 2022
“…Shock Therapy is necessary to change the situation.”
I don’t believe Russia is in a hurry to apply “shock therapy” to anyone. That’s not Putin’s SOP. IMHO, the military-technical measures that will follow these negotiations will be Russia’s tactical and strategic positioning to counter all weapons systems in the surroundings, central and eastern Europe, which has already started. The negotiations were not a failure, and it will not end here. The draft agreements were a negotiating platform, a soundboard to test the willingness of the US/NATO to address collective security in the Eurasian continent, which for Russia is paramount. Russia has been given an answer, and we can be sure the response was mapped out before presenting the drafts. Russia will be open to negotiations even if kinetic actions are taken following these meetings.
Too many posters calling for war on Jan. 16 forget this is not a PlayStation game.
There will be many diplomatic and political steps before we get to see any military engagement, if at all. Cutting off gas supplies to central and eastern Europe, breaking off diplomatic relations with all the lapdogs, typical harbinger of war, economic constrictions for many central and eastern NATO members, the whole nine yards.
As Saker has repeatedly said, Russia will be always judge with prejudice, no matter what it does. A “coward” if it doesn’t unleash “shock therapy,” a bully if it tackles Banderastan, etc. You can see all the coming epithets in the comments now.
What was the answer the Russians received from NATO?
“We’ll talk with you Russkies, but we are not going to change anything. Want more talking?”
And the Russians said “we’ll get back to you on that.”
The march forward against Russia continues. The use of East Europe as expendable launch platforms will continue. They may even add Finland and Sweden to the mass suicide of Europe, but the aggression by NATO will continue.
And Russia can talk some more. NATO wants more talking. US needs more talking.
And what will more talking provide?
They have beefed up Ukraine so that the North Wind will have be well over 20,000 men if shooting starts. The Ukies can easily breech the front lines in several places with what is now amassed and led by US and NATO troops at the contact line and in depth in the Donbass.
Talking is good. Better than war.
But if the intent on the other side is to destroy you and never reach an accord, you have to have Plan B.
And Plan B is not more talks. You’ll eventually have the last word at your execution and death.
It’s like being shot by a firing squad while you call out “Ready. Aim. Fire.”
:-)) Yes, well said, Larch. It may happen!
I am glad that the talking part is over. There was never a diplomatic solution to this conflict between Russia and NATO. War can no longer be delayed, Russia has nowhere to go.
I don’t think we will see an actual war until US missiles fly toward and into Russia. As the Saker said, it will be military/technological pressure, a twist of the pain dial. What that looks like will be determined by the military and technological minds in the Russian defense ministry, and President Putin will decide how to proceed. Certainly it will result in a downgrading of NATO offensive capabilities. I doubt that Mr Putin will do anything to hurt any civilian populations in Europe, like cut off gas supplies. He’s proven himself to be a humanitarian. The monsters are in the west, not in Russia. But since it’s about Russian existence, who knows? Maybe the populace needs some pressure, too, to help them reel in their bozo politicians.
I’ve got my popcorn and Irish butter. Now that the cartoons are over, it’s time for the featured attraction. I’ve been waiting such a long time…
I have been thinking that Romania my be “de-activated” through Russian electronic warfare.
Interesting thought. Putin had signalled in the past that missile facilities in Eastern Europe would be targeted first.
That plus putting nukes in Kaliningrad.
There must be a temptation to take all of the Donetsk & Lugansk oblasts to give the long suffering locals buffer space from the 8 years of snipers and mortars. That would also wake up the people of Europe that WW-3 is not an imaginary threat and real Cold War ending treaties are necessary.
Is it true that Russian alpha groups found biochemical laboratories in Kazakhstan created by the CIA with agents ready to use them against Russia? If this is true, it is a declaration of war.
The biological research labs in Kazakhstan and other countries outside US national territory (as well as those within US national territory) have been of interest and concern to both the RF and PRC for some time (and one could say vice versa).
On October 7,2021 the RF and PRC foreign ministers issued what I thought to be a pretty unusual Joint Statement on the matter (“Joint Statement by the Foreign Ministers of the People’s Republic of China and the Russia Federation on Strengthening the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on their Destruction”):
A key paragraph in that Joint Statement is the following one:
“In this context they emphasize that the United States’ and its allies’ overseas military biological activities (over 200 US biological laboratories are deployed outside its national territory, which function in opaque and non-transparent manner) cause serious concerns and questions among the international community over its compliance with the BWC. The two sides share the view that such activities pose serious risks for the national security of the Russian Federation and China, and are detrimental to the security of relevant regions. The Russian Federation and China further note that the United States’ and its allies’ military biological activities on their national territory also cause serious compliance concerns.”
On January 9, 2022, a retired former Ambassador and career India Foreign Service (IFS) officer, MK Bhadrakumar, published a blog post that also dealt with the issue of US funded/controlled/sponsored biological research facilities in Kazakhstan and other Central Asian countries:
Understandably, there’s not a whole lot of information out there about potentially dangerous/risky research being done at these and other labs via classified programs/SAPs etc. Such research would most likely be carried out in parallel with “white” research.
To the extent that RF finds things of interest, I assume such information would be very closely held indeed – the more interesting, the more closely held.
@J L Borges
“Is it true that Russian alpha groups found biochemical laboratories”
If true, publishing all evidences, detailing every trade secret, putting first hand witnesses testimonies online…that would be more harmful for UK/US than war.
They can do the same thing in many countries only in absolute secret.
To the extent that RF finds things of interest, I assume such information would be very closely held indeed – the more interesting, the more closely held.
Blackring makes a good point about this — the usual excuse in spycraft is not to reveal “sources and methods”, but if the method is “arrest everyone in the lab and question them”, it doesn’t greatly compromise spycraft.
And if anything interesting is revealed, it provides a legitimate reason to demand the arrests of certain persons, and for the warrant to be global in scope. The “scientists” in these labs have already created a global crisis, so that would make it quite a reasonable request (nay, a demand).
… Then demand all the other globohomo “biological research” labs be opened. No more secrets, regardless of where the lab is. Very few Americans would actually object to this, we are getting tired of these “scientists”. Of course, “the blob” would claim it’s a crackpot conspiracy theory, but then that wild card is getting a little tattered these days. If they’re all wild cards, the game reverts to no wild cards.
“Of course, “the blob” would claim it’s a crackpot conspiracy”
Thats why is important to reveal everything, not to keep secrets, or to use it as leverage. Biotech is elites pet project. Bashing their population or even military does not concerns them. Only kick in their own jewels will make them cooperative.
A historic moment for Russia has arrived! It has a high hand. Will it rise?
It is time for the East to support Russia and challenge the Financial Empire, and gain their sovereignty. The West has lost its sovereignty and are vassals of Sauron & Saruman. All their currencies ($, £, €) are Private Money. No sovereign money.
The U$A increased the U$ dollar supply by 30+% in the last few years. What inflation will it create in the U$A? What happens if nations move away from the US$ and refuse to import Inflation? It is time for Russia to trigger the final phase of the De-Dollarization by selling its resources in rubles and through currency swaps. Every crisis is a challenge for imagination!
“There is an attempt to perturb the existing world order… with one incontestable leader who wants to remain as such thinking he is allowed everything while others are only allowed what he allows and only in his interests. This world order will never suit Russia.”
– Vladimir Putin
Vladimir Putin calls U$A parasite on the global economy:
USA is delusional and lives in darkness. In the battle between light and darkness, darkness has no chance because it does not exist; it is merely the absence of light.
Do these narcissistic assholes (USA) really think they can defeat a people that survived Leningrad, that defended Stalingrad, that defeated Hitler and Napoleon, that produced a Dostoevsky and a Tchaikovsky, that has produced hypersonic weapons? I don’t think so…… I’m looking for an epic smack down of these freaks.
Freaks all over the world are up in arms at you comparing them to American Elites.
Behind most events of last years and, more so, last months, from disputes on natural gas flow to Europe and riots in Kazakhstan and, likely more important, the NATO’s expansionism toward Russia, there are declining resources. Also the explotation of Covid (real but badly exaggerated) crisis has gone down that direction (limits to business, i.e., saving resources except for super-wealthy).
It’s a common trait behind most crises since industrial revolution began, including WWII (at that time, coal, now oil and above all natural gas). Such crises have been and are being exploited by all actors than can do it, either as protagonist or vassal. As an expert of resources, I don’t see much more than this.
Unless a major actor withdraws first and unilaterally, this sort of things are bound to end badly, first for vassals (Europe) then for at least one of major actors (and sometimes more than one). Since big gun usually wins over big money, things could not go that well on this (western) side of the table.
Let’s enjoy the remaning time before something really unpleasant occurs.
Nothing on CNN about this , I do not understand that here in comments are talks about War. Not possible since CNN and others western media did not say anything .. ( sarcasm )
Actually, your observation is not so sarcastic. If there were to be a war made by the U.S.A., there would first be some “prepping up” of the American public., e.g. “rah, rah, rah, go team U.S.A., git them Ruskies, etc. etc. etc.” That is not happening. So, we can be rest assured, there are no plans for starting a war coming from the U.S.A., at least not anytime soon.
That’s a good point. No jingoist fear mongering or adrenaline war pumping. Either Washington still believes that they are unassailable or that Putin is bluffing. Whatever Russia does it must be something dramatic but not life threatening. Something clear, visible, but not technically an act of war. Something that strikes directly at the heart of the US and which will grab the attention of every Joe and Jane Sixpack out there. I have mentioned before that knocking out or deactivating some of the Pentagon’s military satellites would get a lot of people’s attention.
Russia bluffing? I think not. As JFK noted after the Cuban Missile Crisis, “they play chess, we play poker.”
I beg to differ and I’ll tell you why…I reckon a wise man believes the exact opposite of what big brother and the whore MSM says, because when do they ever tell the truth?
Isn’t this meaningful?
@ Larchmonter445 on January 12, 2022
“…And Plan B is not more talks…”
Talking and fighting are not a contradiction, talking to your enemies is in the paradoxical order of things.
Ever heard of “talk-talk, fight-fight,” North Vietnam strategy for negotiations? Difficult to find a link for it, but here you have an old one.
The Chinese use it in modern times,
but they also used it during the Korean War. (See episodes 36-40, “Going Across the Yalu River”, generously shared by another poster whose name I forgot.)
Mao called it “fight fight, talk talk (da da, tan tan).”
The Russians are masters of the “talk-talk, fight-fight” strategy, the Red Army used it effectively while fighting the White Armies after the 1917 revolution.
Negotiating while fighting is an old strategy, they alternate in importance, the battlefield dictates the term of the negotiations, the conversations the order of battle.
Reality is not black and white, Russians (and Putin) are masters of the grey.
Well, this “war” will be fast. Missiles mostly. A massive salvo somewhere strategic.
The old wars of fight and talk where old, slow and plodding.
This is hypersonics and thermobarics.
Not much of an environment for talking.
The only thing that will be talked about is how the USA can save face.
If there is to be military action in Ukraine many are expecting it to happen after the Olympics – in March. The times Putin has acted militarily(Georgia & Syria) the action was immediate. Maximum surprise achieved. Based on that, should we expect action before the Olympics begin in February?
The other thing to bear is mind is the Iranian lesson. Iran attacked a US military base without any response from the Americans. 1) military action is not verboten. In fact it’s the only thing western leaders respect. 2) it can be taken without a military response from NATO, provided it is restrained, allowing US leaders a “back down” option.
I expect Russia to act militarily to eliminate the Ukrainian problem. I’m not expecting Russian troops in Ukraine, except perhaps to create a land bridge from Donbass to Crimea. Russia can create a DMZ in the east of the country by simply destroying everything military. If NATO advisers are lost in such an attack I’d bet the West will cover it up – like Trump denying any injuries from the Iranian attack. The truth can come out quietly a month later.
Naturally there will be anti-Russian sanctions. So what! The economic front is what will bring down NATO and western governments. Sanctions will play into Russia’s hand.
The Russians have put their reputation on the line. They can’t just quietly retaliate. There has to be a military response. Provided it does not target actual US military, the NATO bullies will back down, like the US did two years ago.
Please, please, no sinking any aircraft carriers. As disunited as the US is, the one chance of uniting the country is to kill American servicemen. You’d be safer dropping a bomb on DC. Half US citizens would celebrate that! Seriously, target the US military and they must retaliate. At that point nuclear war is unavoidable.
But, it OK for the US to kill Russian in Syria, Iraq etc. What do you think. You like others must understand that Russia does not fear anything about America even its Nukes weapons as Russia’s response will be 10 fold. Therefore, its better for the US not to even imagine they will Nuke Russia, today.
The Russia today is strong, confident and very able unlike the Bankrupted US.
ACs will definitely be sunk if the Ukie side makes a single assault. I believe that’s what’s the Russians are waiting for
A country that could willingly allow Pearl Harbor to happen and allow (and arguably even plan) 9-11, would not hesitate to sink it’s own aircraft carrier to deliver a casus belli. No external attack necessary.
One can look at what is happening in the U.S.A. at the moment. With COVID cases and deaths raging, and a “supply chain crisis” going on for whatever is causing it, for all practical purposes the U.S.A. is at a standstill. Basically, all commercial/industrial systems are down. Nothing is working. Hardly anybody is showing up for work. Without commercial/industrial systems available to back the military up, military systems are likely compromised as well. In all likelihood the E.U. is faring not much better. The U.S.A. and the rest of NATO is in no position to engage in a kinetic war at this time. So, say if Russia decides to just roll into the eastern Ukraine, nobody is going to do anything about it.
How many times has it been said that the issue is not the Ukraine. The Ukraine, most of it, has been Russian land always but it is now infested with Nazi virus. NATO is the source of Nazism. The problem is NATO. Russia will dismember NATO before it has a chance to strangle Russia.
Russia doesn’t want the Ukraine, Poland, limithropic countries of the Baltic… Russia has more land than it needs but in order to be safe from current or future US weapon systems, NATO, which is a fig leaf the US uses to conceal pure aggression, needs to back off to where it was in 1997. Whether that is going to be achieved diplomatically or by other means remains to be seen.
The North American Terrorist Organization, has been dealt a lethal blow, will they live to fight another day, no one can say.
“The U.S.A. and the rest of NATO is in no position to engage in a kinetic war at this time.”
This is precisely why the risks of a conflict are much higher than they have been since 1962. The west is vulnerable, in decline, and barely able to keep its own streets safe let alone invade another country. The longer they wait the weaker they get so the impetus will be to strike out with whatever they’ve got if they feel they are going off a cliff. That’s why I feel that Russia must do something that is dramatic but not a direct attack on US interests that might take lives. It may be impossible to dance on that pin head after all. But Russia can’t just sit back and play parlor tricks any more. They now must do something big.
The current omicron pandemic will peak out in late January or early February, according to the models. This fits in with the time frame for a Ukraine war with Russia as being around the time of the Olympics.
Alternatively, assuming no further variant increase in the pandemic, the war could be pushed off until summer.
The latter might even be more likely, as massive NATO military exercises are going to be held in Ukraine. A Ukraine offensive could be started under cover of these games. Note that most of them start in February or March:
Joint Efforts 2022 multinational exercise. Duration: up to 45 days, February-December 2022.
Ukrainian-American exercises Rapid Trident-2022. Period: up to 45 days, March – December 2022.
Ukrainian-British exercise Kozak Mays-2022. Duration: up to 45 days, March – December 2022.
Multinational exercise Light Avalanche-2022. Duration: up to 45 days, February-December 2022.
Ukrainian-Polish exercises Silver Saber-2022. Duration: up to 90 days: 1st stage – up to 30 days, February – April, 2nd stage – up to 30 days May – July, 3rd stage – up to 30 days August – December
Sea Breeze 2022 Ukrainian-American exercise. Duration: up to 45 days, March – December 2022.
Ukrainian-Romanian exercises Riverine-2022. Duration: up to 45 days, March – December 2022.
Maple Arch multinational exercise 2022. Duration: up to 45 days, March – December 2022.
Viking 2022 multinational exercise. Duration: up to 45 days, February-December 2022.
You must have noticed that these Russian politicians /diplomats are so eloquent. Like their boss Putin they can communicate ad hoc, no script, whereas the American and EU elected/unelected officials behave like a newborn baby sucking on their mother’s teat for life support, lost without a script.
This tells me that the Russians are speaking from the heart (it’s easy to talk from the heart when you firmly believe in your principles ) while NATO mouthpieces are embarrassingly disingenuous. I know I’m stating the obvious and a psychologist is not needed here to interpret or read between the lines.
The US has zero credibility, the puppet EU, a big joke, have gotten away with blue murder, genocide/regime change for so long and now that they can’t it’s toys out the pram time.
Well, the brain capacity of a filthy cockroach is quite limited….and that’s what Anthony Blinken and Michael McFaul are…filthy cockroaches….They are both stupid and quite foul…
“If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything.”–Mark Twain
@ Larchmonter445 on January 12, 2022
“Well, this “war” will be fast. Missiles mostly. A massive salvo somewhere strategic.
The old wars of fight and talk where old, slow and plodding.
This is hypersonics and thermobarics.
Not much of an environment for talking.”
Maybe you’ll get your war, otherwise you’ll be so dissapointed.
It is not Russia’s responsibility to keep avoiding a war forced on her by the engorged evil that is the West – in order to save the Westerners who support their vile governments from their just desserts. If you live in the West, as I do, complain to the instigators – you are likely to end up like Assange or (soon) Djokovic. We all love peace but Russia is free of any blame. Thanks.
You’re shooting in the dark, should follow the thread first, to learn what it is about, then talk.
Otherwise, you’re wasting your time, and ours.
Nobody is blaming Russia, otherwise I wouldn’t be posting on this blog.
Live and learn.
Unless Russia responds militarily, USA will continue to cause havoc all over the world.
Russia’s goal is not to stop the US from continuing “to cause havoc all over the world.”
If you took the time to read the draft proposals, you would know that their main concern is Russia’s own security. You people talk about a military response as if it were a walk in the park. Russia has demonstrated to be a responsible entity when it comes to foreign policy and military affairs. But all you want is a war, and that is not Russia’s goal. Sorry to dissapoint you.
I will not stop you from continuing with your inflamatory calls for war. Your privilege.
That sounds like bluffing and their bluff has been called. Is that it? Nobody in their right mind wants war. But equally, I don’t want a broken up, destroyed Russia and this will happen unless she makes NATO disappear from Eastern Europe. Can you think of a peaceful way of achieving this?
YES! Russia hands over 25% of its Energy profits to America and Iran does the same to England & Israel. Peace and Harmony my friend. LoL
“I will not stop you from continuing with your inflamatory calls for war. Your privilege”
You got it all wrong. No-one here calls for war. Even if does, what influence on future events would it have? Could anyone here “inflame” world on fire?
The enemy is at the gates.
It is bound to attack since forewer, and does not hide it. You know it, I know it, they know it. They will attack at the first opportunity as no more encroachment space is left or needed. Predator is in attacking range, all it waits is the moment of prey’s distraction.
If victim wants to live another day, it MUST poke beast in the eye or smack its head with burning stick. Talking does not help.
That is the law of the nature, that is the Russian position. Some of us was in same position, and beyond. I know how you feel, because I thought the same way. I was wrong.
It is not about privilege. It is DUTY to warn you of imminent danger, and traps that lies ahead.
Sorry. nobody sane here on the blog wants war. Those who want war are the Zionists. Can’t you see this? Do you know that we reap what we sow? Who sows wind, reaps storm. The blogger andrei/saker said he is also a pessimist. Many times in history, childhood and childish irresponsibility has been corrected with a stick and ear pulling. Realize that this is the natural order of things. The Anglo Empire has become a daring drunk at a party. He crossed the line.
How noble of you to not want war. Tell that to the warmongers who make wars everywhere.
And don’t project your frailties on others.
The disappoint is on you and your weaknesses.
Tyranny has never been stopped by good intentions.
Pathological brutes are stopped when injured, incarcerated or killed.
NATO and the US fit that description and necessary proscription.
it does seem and has for some time that the usa side is filled with psychopaths and sociopaths in key decision making positions.
anyone who has even dealt with either knows only 3 choices exist when they demand something from you, submit (they have no mercy), run away as quickly as possible or if that is not an option fight and plan on using lethal violence on them because that is pretty much all that will stop things short of your own death.
An apprentice slicing with his master’s axe, may cut his own hand
Well played LM
There are a group of people (sadly the very same people who are always attracted to positions of power) who absolutely will not stop whatever nefarious behavior they are engaged in, until they take a beating (or worse).
LM is 100% correct, no amount of talking, reasoning or polite waving is going to stop these people from engaging in their provocations.
Russia has been trying to reason with them for a long time, and if the last few days has taught us anything, it’s that mentally defective nitwits like Wendy Sherman are far more interested in lecturing Russia about what would be the best way for them to acquiesce as opposed to making any real progress where realpolitik is concerned.
I don’t think any sane person here wants a war; I think many people here realize that it might be the only way to resolve this (with the exception of Russia’s total capitulation), and I just don’t see that happening.
the answers to europe & in part to american questions seemed aimed @ the european populace rather than washington or brussels. it almost seemed the point—to point out to the citizens of france, spain, germany that their safety was @ risk, that their leaders were playing with their lives & the future of their children’s lives without due consultation or consideration. perhaps feeling as there is already a swell of discontent that these responses might begin to resonate & therein cause some change to trickle up rather than down intended to drown their citizens. i doubt the journalists that peppered grushko with questions will go out amongst the yellow vests or german citizens protesting & ask what their take away of grushko’s responses, bt i would be most interested. they are after all essentially on the front line & having been there before are not as clueless as the average north american.
A rerun of the English film Threads should wake a few English up. Perfidious Albion certainly deserves a spank for 300 years of deviousness, and I for one would prefer to return to my home country in Vietnam than live with a feeling of impending doom in northern England. One little hypersonic missile smack bang in the middle of the city, with a side order of killer drones for every billionaire alive.
Well, idiocy has again prevailed by the US/NATO geniuses. The Russkies knew it would happen, you can be sure of that. So, the big question is – what will Putin do?
His problem is not Ukraine, it is the fascists running NATO and DC. They are the head of the snake. And they are in London and Washington. But how to avoid nuclear war, yet win a swift victory?
Here’s my suggestion:
1) Send some Russian Navy ships/subs on Freedom of Navigation ops in the English Channel, waving in a friendly manner at London; while at the same time:
2) Knock out the European skies satellite comms; and then:
3) Russian ambassadors make friendly visits to the leaders of Poland, Romania and the Baltic 3; informing them they need to dismantle their missile launch sites in 48 hours or they will be vaporized; and then
4) Invite NATO for another round of talks to chat about solutions.
Well, I can dream…..
No dream, Weary,
The Svalbard link cable – already half destroyed – only one connection left and I am pretty sure that the 2nd line is already prepared for destruction – that was a pretty smart move (in my opinion) of the RF – giving a clear hint where the next – real – strike will take place. Where is the proof it was Russia? Please back up your comment with links. Mod.
Russia won‘t begin a kinetic war with a marching army …. But with „shock and awe“ operations against key communication facilities the West relies on.
I guess the RF will spare Germany and maybe France … in the first weeks. But not the UK … we will see.
Just my 2 cent
Nato is a fraud entity created by impotant England after second World War to keep English pirates relevant.
NATO’s first Secretary General, Lord Ismay famously said it was created to “keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.”
When he took command of NATO’s forces, Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower stated: “If in 10 years, all American troops stationed in Europe for national defense purposes have not been returned to the United States, then this whole project [NATO] will have failed.”
England is the epicentre of evil in this world.
West” is misnomer_ it is England and it’s thieving anglossaxon pirate’s vulgar culture which it promotes.
Both world wars were plotted by england. Cold War was started by englabd
Nato was created by England to use American power to occupy Germany and bully Russia.. Gulf war was plotted by witch Margaret thatcher.
Iraq war was plotted by war criminal Tony bastrd Blair
Syrian war was plotted by england as confirmed by French foreign minister dumas in 2009.
Cold War 2 was plotted by englabd
Current lies and propaganda against Russia, China, Germany and Europe in general is being run from England.
Current 3rd World War is being run by English pirates.
When he took
Well some dogs never forget…..did Russia aid a young USA in keeping the Brit bastards out….now the bastards have the USA of all people, threatening Russia.
Sochi, you have a better understanding of the ‘evil dooers’ history and you are not blinded by their control of media, and how the Brits use it, very effectively I might add, to shape the narrative in their favour.
The danger is that after this week and then after written USA refusal to be shared next week, Russia will not be bound by existing law of engagements with NATO millitary as it were before.
This means it would start millitary enagement against NATO (=USA) milliatary which in the past was always avoided as it could escalate to nuclear war.
This time, Putin will not be afraid of this escaltions (with apparent reasons why.. read about recent defensive systems deployed)
This means, USA will suffer millitary defeats which it could only prevent starting a nuclear attack (or retracting from Russia border!), but given the state of weapons, there is a good chance that Russia would almost survive USA nuclear attack, but the USA most definetly not.
So, it would be the USA choice – start a quick suicide, suffer millitary humiliation being pushed away or move away and sign the treaty.
Looks like USA decided to take its chance to go into this decision point
I’m totally exasperated at US-EU malevolence, so only God knows how Putin/Lavrov feel sitting down across the table with forked-tongue stooges, listening to the same old scripted diatribe of yesteryear. I realised 20 years ago having passed MI 2 Bob’s entrance exams that the diplomatic core was not for me. If I wanted to be an actor I’d have gone to stage school.
On a side note. The Brits are struggling with their Energy supplies and costs which tells us that party monster Boris & his motley crew would rather have the young & elderly freeze to death than get on the phone to Gazprom.
On a side-side note , The first casualty of this war should be a blanket ban on Russian Oil/Gas products to the US. Those parasitical cockroaches are most likely reselling it to Asia/South America at huge premiums, much like Germany does to the braindead Poles.
Never give a sucker an even break.
@ Larchmonter445 on January 12, 2022
Warmongering makes you blind.
I challenge you to quote me saying “I don’t want war.”
You couldn’t find it in any of my posts.
The last debate was about your black and white tunnel vision stating talks are over.
I demonstrated to you with historical evidence talking and fighting are part of the Art of War.
It is evident none of the warmongers pushing for war around here have ever been to one. If they had, they wouldn’t be so rash and reckless with their war drumming.
Fortunately we are safe, Russia has people at the helm with an ardent heart and a cool head. The armchair “generals” foaming at the mouth can continue posting drivel to the end of the internet.
Sorry to interpose myself – I don’t think you mean ill and this is just a passionate exchange (understandable) but do you not see the following:
If Russia continues to soft-pedal, threaten without committing, arrange some missiles in Kaliningrad etc – it has failed simply because the West will continue with enlarging NATO and threatening Russia even more.
What was the point of this ultimatum if Russia has decided to fail to remove NATO to its old borders? Wouldn’t it have been better not to come out all guns blazing – full of blanks?
How can Russia make NATO pull back – NATO that has rejected its requests with contempt.
Looks like your own argument of “art of war” is against you. Talk Talk already happened. So the next step is Fight Fight, no?
Russians should give this guarantee to NATO: “We will honor our Duty to Protect any ethnic Russian anywhere, anytime. That includes individuals, towns, villages, cities and countries, and also includes culturally, socially, economically, politically and militarily.
And by culturally, we mean spiritually.
I keep wondering if Russia has a missile capable of delivering the FOAB at any great distance. Has anyone read about it? If so please share a link. Thanks.
The USA will NEVER stop until the USA is threatened personally! The USA loves for Europe, Ukraine and Russia to be in total conflict. They love it! It only helps our MIC to sell more weapons $$$ and not 1 US soldier will be killed. The best case scenario for the USA is for Russia to attach someone, anyone, militarily. An absolute win!!! We don’t give a d&@$ about any of these ppl or nations, only USD and the international reserve currency.
If Russia elects to “threaten” a NATO country, the USA wins again! More $$$ sells more MIC eq.
The ONLY way to stop this is to threaten the USA mainland and the USD. Period!
If I were Putin I’d voluntarily withdraw from SWIFT and place missiles in the west hemisphere.
Until Iran, China and Russia stop the USD this will never end. All USA has to do is print more money and sell more weapons bc no one in America is dying and I can tell you our population could care less about any of these people.
The problem is that U.S. has a criminal record If you loock back you will see that they used atomic bombs against a civilian population twice to show the world that they had the largest macana and then agent orange in Vietnam and depleted uranium bullets in Irak so the Russian strategy must be carefully calibrated for to reach that this scorpion taste his own poison
No one in America is dying, but America itself is. Russia/China need not do a thing except wait and be patient. Lots of armchair general bravado and talk of respect. Who cares if the USA doesn’t “respect” Russia? Not Putin.
ex-Pentagon advisor, Col. Doug Macgregor, makes a whole lot of sense to me.
An unusual pleasure to hear these words coming from a real American mouth.
But, as he mentioned at one point, his was/is a minority voice.
Macgregor said something interesting in that interview, “I think it’s also important to keep in mind that Russia does not have the military capacity that it did 30, 40 years ago, and that is to say there is no theater offensive capability any longer.”
I see this diplomatic manoeuvre by the mother as an excuse to get herself into necessary mode and position to defend herself without being seen as an aggressor. Well thought and absolutely necessary diplomatic move. “Smoke them out” sort of thing. Show the world who they really are….
Russia must simply act with a ‘Financial war attack armageddon’, Financial Weapon of Mass Destruction FWD (eventually in combo with China after the Olympic, to get rid of swift, USD etc..)if not, even alone.
Simply announce a declaration or war(a very credible threath) on nato+ EU: everything will instantly collapse(stocks, bonds,hundreds of trillions of ‘wealth’ will evaporate…you will see them urgently calling Moscow for real negos.)
It is as simple as that, zero death, not a single bullet or missile fired.Very low costs for RF, very massive one for the West which is already in a very weak situation,with terrible and insane levels of debts,energy prices to the roof(even to the Moon), they can not continue to function like that very long even with QE for eternity which leads to very high inflation and is unbearable for 2/3 of their populace already sick and tired of two years of covid lockdowns, surveillance…
Money is the ONLY thing which really counts for them(the ”elites”), and no QE will do in that situation.
Otherwise we are still here on the Saker blog in …2047, talking about sanctions from hell, invasion of Ukraine or any other new target…etc etc..even with Putin gone, Nuland and Blinken also.
The US only survives with never ending wars and the MIC is the deep state.
Neocons always double down(see since 2014), this is ‘religious’, ‘exceptionalism’, ‘the tribe must prevail’, ‘the indispensable nation’….which means: racism, russophobia till Russia total destruction, greed,and Ukraine will become de facto or de jure simply the biggest nato base in the World.Georgia, Moldovia and who knows one central Asia ‘stan’ one day?
They need to be stopped once and for all.
Small kinetic technical retaliation as forseen by RF, will not help, they will double down the same way or worst.
@ Jacob’s Ladder on January 12, 2022
Sorry to interpose myself – I don’t think you mean ill and this is just a passionate exchange (understandable) but do you not see the following:…”
“…If Russia continues to soft-pedal, threaten without committing, arrange some missiles in Kaliningrad etc – it has failed simply because the West will continue with enlarging NATO and threatening Russia even more…”
I posted a comment down there re: Russia’s position, and I will copy it here again for you.
“…The current deployments are versatile. They keep Russia’s options open and therefore keep the defender guessing.”
Keir Giles, Associate Fellow at Chatham House.
The rest is speculation and a guessing game. Russia will not put forward two drafts before the world with serious warnings, without mapping the steps that would follow. What those actions are going to be, only a few Russians know. They might have to do some adjustments after the negotiations, but the Grand General Plan remains the same. Russians knew what to expect from the West.
I just read a comment from a Russian poster, worth to add it to my response to you.
Жељко on January 12, 2022 · at 9:25 pm EST/EDT
“I see this diplomatic manoeuvre by the mother as an excuse to get herself into necessary mode and position to defend herself without being seen as an aggressor. Well thought and absolutely necessary diplomatic move. “Smoke them out” sort of thing. Show the world who they really are….”
A man after my own heart. I fully agree with this assessment. We can say with certainty that one of Russia’s objectives was to offer a negotiating platform, which they knew it was going to be rejected. They are now free to continue with their plans, whatever those might be.
“What was the point of this ultimatum if Russia has decided to fail to remove NATO to its old borders? Wouldn’t it have been better not to come out all guns blazing – full of blanks?”
Many people call it “ultimatum,” I believe that offers a different connotation, a threatening message. An ultimatum does not imply sitting with someone to look for a solution to the problem at hand. It is either…or, Godfather style, an offer that you can’t refuse. My dictionary defines ultimatum as a “final peremptory demand.” If Russia would have sent a message to the West stating “move back to the 1997 borders, or else…,” that would have been an ultimatum.
Vocabulary is important here, the word ultimatum is taking many posters to believe that, to use your Western movie words, Russia now has to come out “guns blazing” shooting from the hip at NATO or in a westerly general direction. Neither Putin, Lavrov, or Shoigu, are crazy to do such a thing.
A German journalist from Die Welt, giving an interview to RT in Moscow describes it better,
“…Russia has consistently complained that the West has not listened to it in recent years. In Moscow, they say they are ready for a discussion, but they are facing insurmountable resistence. Now Putin has taken out a baton, put a gun to the temple of the West, so to speak, and is forcing these negotiations. And he succeeded, the West is talking to him.”
How can Russia make NATO pull back – NATO that has rejected its requests with contempt.
Another factor that is pushing posters to wildly speculate about Russia’s next steps, is impatience. Negotiations haven’t ended yet, Grushko underlined that very clearly today. He was also loud and clear that “Moscow does not talk about compromise solutions in negotiations with NATO on security guarantees.” Negotiations continue under the firm principles stated in the drafts, no compromise solutions. Russia is forcing NATO to create a new security estructure for Eurasia.
In your zeal to push for Russia’s kinetic action, you misinterpreted my earlier exchanges. I look at a map of Ukraine, and I see Novorossiya expanding to the Dnieper, one of the many options open to Russia. The new impulse for unification of former Soviet states, given by the Kazakhstan take over attempt, means Belarus can play a crucial role in rolling back NATO from the Baltics, encircling Ukraine. All options are on the table, as our politicians like to say when threatening weaker countries with bombing them to the Stone Age.
What I am against, is the view of Russia as an all powerful thundering Jupiter, multi-launching hypersonic and thermobaric missiles, delusionally thinking “this ‘war’ will be fast,” as a poster stated earlier. All you know when starting a war is that started, nobody can predict the end.
Thank you for that. I am not at all zealous for a “kinetic exchange”. If Russia is serious about the level of threat and has said many times that her proposals are take it or leave it, and the West has rejected them even before the talks…
How is Russia going to stop and push NATO back? Russia is definitely not Jupiter. If the West is completely ignoring her legitimate demands – even before the talks, it risks looking completely impotent unless it does something convincing that is attributable to it and goes beyond threats, hints, veiled and less veiled criticisms, manoeuvres, troop movements (in 1999, Yeltsin sent a missile-armed flotilla to the Adriatic during war against Yugoslavia – only for the ships to turn back after the “demonstration of force”).
I hate war, I hate inconvenience, hunger, cold and death. But I am hating the Western vampires for pushing Russia into a corner again – even more.
Russia-US Talks, on The Critical Hour (audio)
Kazakhstan secured. Putin compares it to Maidan 2014
Failed Kazakhstan color revolution targets Russia ally at heart of China’s New Silk Road
Russia has shown its strategy is working. Russia will win in the end, soon, without a direct single shot fired. By unmasking its face the empire is loosing its hegemonic status and the respect. The empire showed the world what freedom, human rights and women and men are free to with their bodies. Also sowed what western style free economy and privatization of your country’s resources mean, and IMF help means. All Mr. Putin did was not standing in the way. Why would Putin want to change the strategy, a strategy with almost no cost. Actually Russia benefitted greatly, it’s self sufficient in everything. And those misguided young who wanted Russia go be like the west are now know better. The
Empire and its vassals will be blaming and fighting each other while it’s subjects with common sense will be on line waiting to immigrate to the east for the land of “honey and milk”. The east should be very careful who they should let in. Bill Clinton said after 911 we should be careful how we respond, our response should be proportional to the attack so if we are not the tough kid on the block the world will treat us in kind. I guess they knew it coming to end. Perhaps they are just creating diversions so the elites in charge who brought this mess don’t hang. Putin told a western journalist don’t give up your weapons you’ll need it.
People here are so trigger happy. hypersonics is the buzzword you see in several posts. its a real thing of course but i doubt shoigu will fire into people before killing some nato satellites and radar installations.
I fully agree with this.
1) The first step to render much more difficult the western informational war is to blind the adversaries about the possibility to collect intelligence on your and the adjacent/allies territorres.
I believe that the controlled destruction of the russian satellite that happened around mid-November was a real test but also a clear message about the russian ability to blind/counter any opponent’s actions from outer space. There was discussion about this being conducted via Nudol missile or S550; perhaps leaving this a bit cloudy was an interesting russian strategy, even if availability of S550 wasn’t still announced at that time.
2) There are also interesting possible actions on GPS satellites covering areas immediately outside russian/allies borders, to prevent or make more difficult several type of military/intelligence acts from NATO countries. GPS guidance is also used by several weapons types, therefore it can’t be qualified as pure civilian technology.
3) A further level of deep ennoyance would be making useless the over-the-horizon radar stations located in Alaska, Northern US East Coast and UK; this would however require a kinetic action on opponent’s territory, and would therefore considered a war act.
All of these measures qualify as preparations for subsequent war actions, with the consideration that definitely only (3) is pointing to a next coming was scenario. 1 and 2 would be badly perceived, but not a reason sufficient to war instatement.
To all those who suggest Russia “dialing up the pain meter” by restricting the supply or increasing the price of gas to Europe: do you not see that the “chosen ones” in Europe are already doing that same thing. Especially the German regime is making the German people suffer by delaying the authorization of NS2. The chosen **want** the non-chosen to suffer a cold winter, it will break their spirit and make them more pliable for Con-B3 (Build Back Better; the Great Reset when “you will own nothing and be happy”). Nothing would please the chosen ones more than to be able to blame these self-inflicted gas shortages on Russia.
Wow, never thought I wouldn’t be alone in having reservations about cutting Russian gas supplies to Europe, an idea I see too much on Anglophone RT comment sections (after all, with English being the language of the Five Eyes, I could discuss the Sapir-Whorf theory, but I digress). I mean, it’s something the USA wants to have happen, as part of its long-standing divide-and-conquer scheme to pit Europe and Russia against one another, so why give it to them?
Exactly. They are selling gas reserves acquired at super low prices, order of magnitude more expensive. Owners of gas reserve storages are private companies.
A ten-fold nuclear response doesn’t matter. Even a thousand fold nuclear response doesn’t matter. The minute the first nukes fly from whichever side is daft enough to enter the launch codes, we are all probably going to suffer the same fate, which is to be slightly dead. The dancing Aussie female navy personnel won’t even have a chance to show the Russkies ‘what for’ with their finely honed and expert battle twerking choreography.
Next step- military-technical methods.
Whatever that means.
Stumbled on a 2015 view.
Interesting to see how things have in fact developed down the “wrecking Ukraine” road he points out.
“Why is Ukraine the West’s Fault? Featuring John Mearsheimer”
(Sep 26, 2015)
All that remains for Russia is to begin the adoption of the technical-military measures already indicated. Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia are the red lines for which NATO membership is inadmissible. Therefore: Concrete ACTION eliminating the power of decision in this sense. There is no turning back, or the complete demoralization of the Russian government. Just in case, it might be the case to preemptively transfer a good part of the strategic core of State decisions to Ekaterinimburg or another city, beyond the Urals.
To djole Jan 13,2022 1;52 am est
I concur with many of your thought’s and view’s
It’s what is going on now , is it for really, or part of the play ? where does the Vactican ,Swiss (BIS) and Rome
and UK come in ?
Earth is and has always being in a stay of FLUX
Beside a new money system that will be forced from the old System to a new system, those who have the mite
and Wisdom will go forward !!