[This column has been written for the Unz Review]
Yesterday (Sept 19th), I tried to post a short commentary suggesting that before we jump to conclusions about anything, we ought to wait for the fact to come out. But to no avail. The chorus of “Putin is a doormat!!”, “bomb Israel!!” and similar inanities is carrying on, louder than ever. Reading that crazy nonsense, I wanted to toss in a slogan, something like “Jew-haters and Putin-haters – unite!”. But then I realized that it would be futile because they have already united…
My friend Andrei Martyanov has tried to bring some logic and sanity into this pandemonium which I posted here (in spite of not normally doing reposts). Well, at the risk of being called a “gatekeeper” or a “cryto-Zionist”, I have decided to also try once more to bring this discussion into the realm of sanity, facts and logic.
First, let me start by a very simple and primitive question:
Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?
Seriously, I mean it. Unless you belong to the type of folks who believe that the Israelis are exceptionally crafty, smart and quasi infallible (there are such folks amongst both Jew-lovers and, more surprisingly, Jew-haters), this is a legitimate question, no?
What do we know for sure as of right now (Sept 20th)? We know that the Israelis did not give enough warning time to the Russians, which is in direct violation of an agreement between Israel and Russia. Do we know that they did it deliberately? No, we don’t. We really don’t.
Anybody with any military experience will tell you that what is known in the USA as FUBAR, SNAFU and “cluster****” is something all militaries do on a daily basis. Furthermore, the Israelis have had terrible screw-ups many, many times. Just a summary of all the screw-ups of the famous (and much over-rated) Mossad would take pages and include many outright embarrassing incidents (for a good laugh, just look at the inept Israeli attempt at assassinating Khaled Meshal!). So why is everybody assuming that the Israelis carefully planned the whole thing?
Next, let’s assume that this is simply the typical case of Israeli arrogance (not a myth!) and that they decided to inform the Russians as late as possible. Does that at all entail that the maneuver of the Israeli F-16s pilots to seek cover from the S-200 missile was something they had planned in advance? Does anybody bother to look at the actual (as opposed to Hollywood) record of the Israeli Air Force during past wars when they were actually challenged by a reasonably capable air defense? There is a detailed discussion (in Russian) about this here which can be summarized like this: as soon as the Israelis start losing aircraft their martial prowess rapidly vanishes. Now please recall this: the Israelis have had recent losses, some admitted, some denied, but there is no doubt that they are tense and very concerned. Bottom line: I would fully expect the Israeli pilots to freak out and seek cover as soon as they are told by their warning system that they are being painted by a radar in tracking mode (the S-200 has a semi-active radar homing guidance system). If that is the case, and I am not saying that this is the only possibility, then the fault is of the Israeli pilots, not of their commanders or the Israeli state as a whole. Yes, the command responsibility is the one of the state, but not the guilt for having engaged in such an evasive maneuver (besides, knowing the price placed by Israeli on goyim lives, this would be just so typical, would it not…)
At this point, I need to ask another question: what would the Israelis gain from shooting down the Il-20? They sure ain’t gonna frighten the Russians (Russian military don’t scare easy) and the Il-20 will be replaced. Scaring the Iranians or Hezbollah? Forget it – not happening. Maybe there was a real lucrative target that they destroyed? Yes, maybe, be so far we don’t know anything about this. So what would be the point?
Then the “sister question”: what would the Israelis risk by deliberately shooting down a Russian EW aircraft? Well, in theory, they would risk having their aircraft shot down and their airbases engaged with Russian missiles. That is highly unlikely, I will admit, and the Israelis probably understand the Russians very well (many of them being from Russia). But could they be sure that the local commanders would not order an immediate retaliation (as their current rules of engagement do authorize them to!)? Let me remind everybody that this Spring, the USA was not so sure at all, and following the words of the Russian ambassador that “not only missiles but their launchers would be destroyed” the USN and Air Force decided to shoot as little as possible and from as far as possible. As for the British sub, its captain decided to cancel the planned missile strike entirely (they were being shadowed by two Russian subs). Seems to me that the potential risks of that kind of operation would be pretty high, while the potential rewards rather unclear.
Those who insist that this was a deliberate Israeli act need to come up with a halfway credible explanation not only for how this was done, but also why this was done.
Now, like many others, I despise the Israeli racist, genocidal rogue state with all my heart. But that does not prevent me from being capable of imagining a scenario in which the Israelis simply screwed-up. Believe it or not, but my disgust for Zionist ideology does not at all entail a boundless belief in some Israeli infallibility.
Finally, let look at this: today (Sept 20th) an IDF delegation led by Air Force Commander Maj.-Gen. Amikam Norkin is in Moscow. Also participating in the trip are the Head of the Foreign Relations Division, Brig.-Gen. Erez Meisel and other officers from the Intelligence, Air Force and Operations Divisions. Does anybody believe that all these officers went to Moscow just to thumb their noses at the Russians? Or maybe they all traveled to Moscow to present some totally non-credible excuses which will only infuriate the Russians further?
My guess is that they have something exculpatory (at least in part) to show.
Putin-haters and Jew-haters (united, of course!) will immediately declare that the Israelis went to Moscow to pressure Putin into not giving in into the (very real) public outrage and calls for retaliatory measures. To this I will very simply reply: rest assured that there is a very powerful pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia which is already putting the maximal amount of pressure on the Kremlin and there is no need at all to send top IDF officials to do that (especially on Yom Kippur!).
This is probably due to my messy writing style, but very often when I say “A” some folks clearly hear “B” (or even “non-A”!), so with them in mind, I will be very very clear and spell it out: I am not saying that the Israelis did not deliberately shoot down the Il-20 and I am not saying that the Israelis are not responsible for the resulting loss of life and equipment.
What I am saying is that Putin, in contrast to the hordes of self-appointed armchair strategists, does have to look at all the possible options before deciding what to do next. Because even if we assume that the Israelis are irresponsible, arrogant, evil and reckless (which they are), this is not a reason for the Russians to emulate them or start a war.
If the Russians conclude that the Israelis did it deliberately, I will support a strike on Israeli air bases. If the Russians conclude that the Israelis cannot be trusted to abide by any agreements (which I think is indisputable), then I think that the Russians should declare an air exclusion zone over the Russian forces (a 100km radius or so). I also think that it is high time to keep a pair MiG-31BMs on 24/7 combat air patrol high over Syria (they can come quite close to replacing a much more expensive and vulnerable A-50U AWACS).
At this time (Sept 20th 20:37 GMT) all they have announced is that ““both sides emphasized the importance of the states’ interests and the continued implementation of the deconfliction system”. If that is all that the Russians decide, then I will find it wholly inadequate and I will predict a further surge in frustration against not only the government, but against Putin himself. But, for the time being, we need to wait and see what the Russian investigation will reveal. Only then can we begin cheering Putin or calling him names.
There is also this possibility: the Russians would decide on an air exclusion zone and tell the Israelis, but both sides would decide to keep this secret in order for Israel to save face (because if the Russians declare an air exclusion zone, this will create a safe heaven for Hezbollah and all the other militias which would be a political disaster for Bibi Netanyahu). So we might never find out.
Finally, I want to add one more thing which is rarely, if ever, mentioned.
The S-200 is a pretty old air defense system. We also know that it does not have a Russian IFF. However, the Russians have declared several times that the Russian air defense network and the Syrian one were integrated. This is what best explains, at least in part, the very high number of US cruise missiles intercepted in April. The problem is that the way the S-200 (and most modern air defense systems) works is that the S-200 is fully integrated into a larger air defense network administered by automated air defense management systems which is operated by a higher echelon air defense command. This means that the Syrian air defense crew did not simply detect the incoming missiles and fire off one of their own. At the very least, this decision was taken by a higher echelon Syrian air defense command. Now we know that the time was extremely short and, hence, the Russian air defense personnel might not have had the time to take protective action, especially not when dealing with a large, slow and vulnerable moving EW aircraft (the fact that this aircraft flew un-escorted is definitely a Russian mistake!). Still, we know that the Russians have many early warning capabilities which the Syrians do not have (AWACS, space based, shipborne radars, over-the-horizon radars, etc.) and there is a pretty decent chance that somebody could have done something to prevent what happened. True, since the Israelis and Russians had an agreement, the Russians therefore classified the Israelis as “non-threat”, but it does not take a genius to understand that four Israeli F-16 flying towards the Latakia Governorate are up to no good and that this warrants immediately going on full alert.
So this might be the reason why Putin spoke of “tragic circumstances”: there might be more blame to pass around than just piling it all up on the just the Israelis. By the way, even if true, none of this would in any way exculpate the Israelis for the very simple reason that had the Israelis warned the Russians on time this entire tragedy might have been avoided even if the prime culprits are cowardly Israeli pilots, less than competent Syrian air defense crews or too trusting Russians. By “warning” the Russians just 1 minute before the attack the Israelis created an environment in which such a tragedy simply had to happen. This is why I think that no matter what the Russian investigation find, anything short of an air exclusion zone over the Russian forces would constitute an inadequate response: the fundamental Israeli responsibility is already established. But what is still missing are the (important) details.
One more thing in conclusion: the last time the Russians made a deal with the Israelis, it worked remarkably well, let’s not forget that. The Syrian forces re-took control of their southern border without the Israelis doing anything meaningful to stop them. Let also remember that at the beginning of this war the usual chorus of Putin-haters was already screaming that “Putin disarmed and betrayed Syria!!” when the Russians removed the (useless) chemical weapons from Syria (thereby stopping an imminent US attack). When the Russians then proceeded to single-handedly save Syria from the “good” and “bad” terrorists, those who were screaming about betrayal remained silent and never admitted that they were wrong.
The truth is that no matter what Putin does, we can expect the chorus of Putin-haters to bellow at the top of their lungs “Putin betrayed X” (replace “X” with whatever you want). Yes, they are stupid and tedious, and nothing will stop them (I also suspect that a lot of that nonsense is machine generated, at least judging by the kind of repetitive crap the moderators constantly intercept on my blog). But for the rest of us, we need to remain critical of both Putin and Russian policies, but we need to do so by logically processing well-established facts, not by just waiting for whatever pretext to resume the usual mantra.
UPDATE: I have listened with great interest to the MoD briefing this morning and it rather obvious that the Israelis offered no convincing explanations to the Russians who spoke of “criminal negligence“, “misleading Israel information” and that “the blame for the Russian Il-20 aircraft tragedy lies entirely with the Israeli Air Force“. The Russian military has concluded that the Israeli actions were “a clear violation of the 2015 Russian-Israeli agreements” and that “the military leadership of Israel either has no appreciation for the level of relations with Russia, or has no control over individual commands or commanding officers who understood that their actions would lead to tragedy“. There is nothing at all in the MoD briefing which would in any way excuse the Israelis and, even more importantly, nothing which could leave any excuse for Putin not to take meaningful action in response. And, just to make things worse, the Israelis have not only denied any wrongdoing or mistakes, but have even added that they won’t change their policies in Syria (these guys always double-down).
In summary, we have a typical case of gross incompetence by the Israelis, followed by their usual chutzpah when caught. It will be very interesting and very telling to see what kind of measures Putin will order next. Personally, I can only repeated that in my opinion: that, as a bare minimum, Russia ought to declare an air exclusion zone of about 100km around her forces in Syria and declare that any Israeli aircraft entering that zone, or firing a missile into it, will be immediately shot down. Russia also should increase the number of Su-30SM/Su-35S in Khmeimim and place a pair of MiG-31BM (possibly based in Iran) on 24/7 combat air patrol high over Syria. If Putin fails to act this time, this will be the most damning evidence of the power of the pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia. We shall soon find out.
The least expensive but most painful for the Israelis, option would be to pressure UN to DEMAND that Israel declares it’s nuclear arsenal and joins the NPT.
Now that is called asymmetric response and much more punitive than any one time bombing run or retaliatory aircraft shutdown
Yes, it’s about time.
Israel is the regional threat: not Iran, not Syria, not Hezbullah, etc.
let’s get that straightened out, for once and for all.
The nuclear-armed Apartheid State is the regional threat. Got that?
Whatever the investigation results will be, there is only one solution named:
ADIZ ( Air Defense Identification Zone )
While I see the need for Russia to do something (I am not sure what) any “attack” against the poor Israeli’s would be tried immediately in the world court and Russia would be found guilty. I believe that any response must be measured and planned against such an occasion. My 60+ years on this planet I have always heard about “the poor Israeli’s” but have come to believe that it is just the opposite. Their leaders cause things to happen such as the plane downing and then still hide behind the Holocaust. It has always amazed me that the sane of the Jewish people have allowed these kind of things to happen.
Iran attempting to get Israel pressured by international community to play by same rules for and expose their nuclear weapons as other sensible peoples….cf false claims against Iran by Israel….good political move….presumably if Israel does not, that shows they are rogue nation supported by USA…? So if Israel attacks, Iran can respond with conventional missiles it has?
Sorry guys,but this is same like with Serbs in war with EU i NATO.No different.And j see same reaction of Russian
politician as i time of atack on Serbs.NO DIFFERENT!!!!Sorry but you have to many rats in Kremlj
it’s even worse now because when Nato attacked Serbia Russia was weak and in total chaos
now Russia ist very strong but nevertheless doesn’t stand by its allies when Isreal bombs the hell out of them
I don’t understand Putin anymore
This conflict seems to be in a state of stalemate. Any analysis seems repetitive including Andrei Martyanov, Andrew Korybko and including saker’s.
On the current episode only Ruslan Ostashko spoke the truth and only that is important.
And so building on what Ruslan said, can Russia ask for a billion dollar (each) as compensation for each life lost? And can they make it known to the whole world that Israel did it without helping Israel save their face (why Israel has this luxury of saving their face, Lets put a stop to that at least). But i think this will stay a dream for a long time as this stalemate possibly is good for Russian internal politics as well. Maybe that is the reason even Russia is not interested in peace (just thought).
I like the suggestion to demand $1 billion from Israel for each life lost.
Half to go to the family and half to the Russian state 9whcih after all educated and trained the airmen, and now has lost their services).
I have suggested big reparations payments already.
Glad someone agrees with me!
I just find it interesting that it seems whenever there is a “mistake” it is Russians and/or Syrians that wind up dead. While Saker’s analysis is very well considered and I am agreement that an exclusion zone should be established by the Russian force in Syria, I feel, like PCR, that this train of provocations should have been firmly responded to much earlier. It is better to try to stop that train before it pickups steam because once you get all that mass moving in one direction it becomes much more difficult. If there were competent engineers at the controls it would be one thing but what we have is a gaggle of troglodytes otherwise known as neo-cons and Israeli-firsters.
Another dimension that sticks in the back of my mind as I read Saker’s analysis, which again is is well considered and completely rational, is that well, it doesn’t mean anything. They control the narrative so no matter how preposterous (i.e. Skripal case, Malaysian Airlnes , Russian interference in US Elections . . . etc.) the stories put out or obvious the provocations on their part, it is taken as good coin by much of the people of the West.The Neo-Con West is not-agreement capable so ipso facto they are not swayed by reason. They are bullies in a bubble and are intellectually and morally deficient. Moreover, the populations of the Western countries are not far behind. Obedience, complacency and, to use a PCR phrase, insouciance carry the day.
Calling off the Idlib offensive then is not wise either. If the mission was, back when this began in 2015, to retake all of Syria, then this should be completed without hesitation. Making deals with the likes of Ergodan is practically guaranteed not to end well. And if war is the fear, then Putin should of thought of this before starting the campaign in Syria. Surely, he must have known what the stakes were and that if you go in, you have to finish. Otherwise, like in chess, if you do not maintain momentum then the advantage shifts to your opponent who likely won’t relinquish it.
Syria is simply a weapon system proving ground for the global MIC. Russian arms slaes have ballooned since its Syrian intervention.
Agreed. Our western politicians live in an information bubble where they regurgitate their own false information and our peoples have long since given up protesting in the streets as a way to enforce real change even if they know the truth. The propaganda is just too strong of a kung-fu. I do think that this is slowly changing but can it survive all the attacks on internet freedoms?
The Idlib agreement was a mistake!. The only rationale I see that makes sense is that Turkey falls on its face trying to exorcise or control those groups that want to continue the war and the Syrian offensive will continue at a future date. Avoid a western response now and get more wiggle room to get Turkey onside. Maybe something will happen with the Kurds in the meantime.
LATEST ANALYSIS NEWSNew Satellite Images Reveal Aftermath Of Israeli Strikes On Syria; Putin Accepts Offer to Probe Downed Jet
The images reveal the extent of destruction in the port city of Latakia, as well as the aftermath of a prior strike on Damascus International Airport.
Published 5 hours ago on September 21, 2018 By Tyler Durden 739 Views
An Israeli satellite imaging company has released satellite photographs that reveal the extent of Monday night’s attack on multiple locations inside Syria.
ImageSat International released them as part of an intelligence report on a series of Israeli air strikes which lasted for over an hour and resulted in Syrian missile defense accidentally downing a Russian surveillance plane that had 15 personnel on board.
The images reveal the extent of destruction on one location struck early in attack in the port city of Latakia, as well as the aftermath of a prior strike on Damascus International Airport. On Tuesday Israel owned up to carrying out the attack in a rare admission.
Syrian official SANA news agency reported ten people injured in the attacks carried out of military targets near three major cities in Syria’s north.
The Times of Israel, which first reported the release of the new satellite images, underscores the rarity of Israeli strikes happening that far north and along the coast, dangerously near Russian positions:
The attack near Latakia was especially unusual because the port city is located near a Russian military base, the Khmeimim Air Force base. The base is home to Russian jet planes and an S-400 aerial defense system. According to Arab media reports, Israel has rarely struck that area since the Russians arrived there.
The Russian S-400 system was reportedly active during the attack, but it’s difficult to confirm or assess the extent to which Russian missiles responded during the strikes….”http://theduran.com/new-satellite-images-reveal-aftermath-of-israeli-strikes-on-syria-putin-accepts-offer-to-probe-downed-jet/
The least militarily and diplomatically expensive but most painful – for the Israelis – option is to punish/pressure Israel via UN to declares it’s nuclear arsenal and joins the NPT.
If/when Israel refuses to acquiesce to the transparency demand, it will expose itself to academic, political and economical isolation by the world community.
I don’t expect the USraelis to comply but this will at least put them in the camp of darkness and disarm their public relations. Others will comply in the boycott and there will be a higher premium in doing business with Israel.
This non-linear non-reflexic response is more damaging to ZioCons, than a one time bombing run or aircraft interception.
I disagree. The action Russia can take that is most damaging to Israel and Netanyahu is to make it clear that Israel will never attain the Litani River in Lebanon, and to start measures allowing Syria to regain the Golan. It is all about water.
Without an expanding supply of water, and in fact facing a decline in water supplies, Israel will dry up, figuratively.
Now factor in the decline of the dollar and the ascendency of ruble/yuan/gold/etc. Without the dollar’s primacy, the ability of Hegemon to come to Israel’s aid, whenever and however she directs, becomes severely limited.
I think the day will come when Hegemon is blackmailed into *not* vetoing a UNSC resolution directing Israel to withdraw from the West Bank.
This is how Russia and the rest of the civilized world will pay back.
In the ME a lot is about water.
I think also in Iraq; Just look at a map.
Most of the “green” part of the map is in Iraq.
(Tigris and Euphrates rivers and delta).
The rest is shades of yellow to brown to orange).
I hope Israel dries up and turns to dust.
It has a nice biblical ring.
Here is a nice topographical map that shows clearly that dry high mountains start right at Iraq’s eastern borders.
It is quite amazing, really:
“What would the Israelis gain from shooting down the Il-20? ”
A lot of “dual citizens” want a direct conflict between Russia and Israel. I suppose a John Mccain type really hates the idea of good relations between Israel and Russia. Provocation is predictable.
The people screaming down Putin are simply people who know they can’t oppose his policy. Instead,they pretend his policies aren’t real (ex. Russia isn’t really helping the Donbass) and he’s out to bury everyone. Note: Russia Insider is really a hotbed for these people.
All should ask themselves, “would Syria exist without Russia’s intervention?” The answer is clear. If Putin was bad, he’d be Angela Merkel.
The whole point was that one of their own F16s (or whatever the name of their stupid US-supplied aircraft is called) wasn’t blasted out of the sky. Apparently that’s an accident, in these parts. I’d call it murder.
I see nobody’s referred to Korybko’s most recent analysis published today, the 21st. He raises a very important, unmentioned (or self-censored) point that Russia has allowed–not done anything to prevent–the Zionists to bomb/missile attack Syria over 200 times in the prior 18 months alone! Think about that fact for a moment then ask why if Russia is helping Syria to defeat terrorists and terrorism it refuses to do anything to deter/stop the terror attacks done by the Zionists? Assad wouldn’t be any sort of leader if he didn’t press Putin on this point–Why?
Korybko takes that unsavory fact and unpacks it, the result isn’t pretty and needs to be fully cited.
Please no cutting and pasting of large parts of articles – you have put the link. Rule 9 Mod
And most important, why did Assad wait two days before expressing Syria’s condolences, and then through an impersonal telegram instead of a direct phone call?
Korybko raises a series of critically important questions unaddressed by The Saker and commentators. Perhaps Assad did try to call but Putin’s a very busy man and wasn’t available when attempts were made to contact him via telephone. But that’s a small issue compared to the much larger one of Russia’s unwillingness to combat all acts of terrorism committed against Syria–and each Zionist attack is by definition a terrorist attack.
I’m not saying Putin’s weak or a closet Zionist. What I’m illuminating is the great contradiction between Russia’s announced reasons for helping Syria and its actions or lack thereof.
My point too. But as you see on your location on the comment list, simple questionable and important facts are not popular to discuss in the controlled opposition “alternative” news………………………LOL.
It reminds me about the longhaired hippies from 1970´es and their wish for “freedom” by totalitarian controle of deviations.
Are you aware that about a year ago , Korybko was writting articles about Russia and Israel being great allies?
I take with a pinch of salt everything he writes.
Reading Korybko´s articles made me wiser but at the same time sad.
It appears Putin goes against Syrian interests and Russian military Generals who naturally are pessed on Israel´s 200 attacks inside Syria and protection of ISIS because of “influence, leverage and…”balancing powers”.
Which means its the same shit. No visions other than Babylon II and the fight for a chair in the Board!
this is an important comment: what I ask is Putin doing in Syria if he allows Israel to bomb Syria? it is as if Putin has put up a protective umbrella for Israeli bombing of Syria.
I see saker and others in defence of Putin. I was not but took back because of the constant case made by the saker in his defence. but I cannot defend Putin anymore. Putin is so full of contradictions he is looking quite the lunatic. why would you choose to defend Syria and make a deal with the source of the attack on Syria to bomb Syria with impunity right under your nose. isn’t that quite insane
but there is so much more nonsense with Putins Syria policy where does one begin?
how is not accurate to lay the black for those 15 dead Russian military personnel at Putins door? that is exactly where it must be placed.
Syria is Russias ally but Russia will not arm Syria properly. he allows Israel to bomb but does not give Syria the means to defend against Israel. it is of the same piece to refuse to sell to Iran S-400 but sell them to the Saudis and to Turkey. but the inferior air defence that could not recognize its own plane is what Putin gave to the Syrians and refused to give them S-300
so Israel has superior weaponry and a Russian deal to bomb at will. who in the hell is Putin actually defending/protecting..the Syrians or the Israelis?
why is Putin so full of stupid contradictions?
I think its because he is capitalist and at the end of the day is an Atlanticist. he does not actually know what to do best by the irreconcilables in the situation due to his outlook on the world. look at Putin effecting the despised pension plan of the atlanticist on the Russian people. is that a mistake?
no! Putin again is a capitalist and on this day that is perfect capitalist policy to keep the system going. so Putin knew what he was doing..and I bet whatever reforms in that policy the peoples opposition forces wont mean much change to the original bill. on this day the capitalist must squeeze the hell out of the people to go o..austerity. if Putin was any different he would not have pushed that bill. if he was for the people and was for democracy he would have designed something that took the people forward not back.
that is why he is in Syria but protecting the western interest although he is supposed to be opposed to their interest. Putin went out of his way to appease the west in their efforts to punish Iran…he did everything Obama asked of him to stop Iran. he did not sell them arms, he refused to complete the nuclear plant, he supported sanctions
and now we can no longer avoid openly what we knew all along..that Putin sat by and allowed the Israeli to bomb Syria 200 times, to blow Syria apart and did nothing. so again why is he in Syria?
I no longer extend even a modicum of legit, credibility or seriousness to Putin. he is not on any side but the side of the western capitalists..the anglo/zionist..whether he is conscious of it or not. but he is conscious. he knows what he is doing. Putin does little to nothing to support those we know those on the side of right..Iran and Syria. he gives all they ask to Turkey, Israel and the Saudis. the Saudis have not shot down Russians yet but the Turks and Israelis have. when the Saudis do shoot down Russians planes Putin might give them some of the new weapons he has
Putin is really a fifth column. he should take off his other masks and be openly fifth column. in that mode we can expect him to integrate with the EU and Russias soon ceases to be a nation..or the majority Russian nationalist people come out and changes it all in a flash, sends Putin into retirement..which is where he should be sent..in a hurry
I intended to say no more on this site but I am sorely hurt by Putin and the way he has caused the prolongation of Syrian suffering in that war that should have been ended already. Putin kept that war going, keeping Russian costs to a pittance in the process maintaining skeleton forces that could not complete the work. Putin kept withdrawing and having to come back etc! oh man! why did he not just arm and train the Syrians and let them do all the fighting. charge the Syrians for it all and give them extended financial terms and time to repay. but give them all the need and get out of the way.
that would have taken the Russians completely out of any possible confrontation with the west and eliminate any chance of world war 3. and the Syria would not have suffered 200 Israeli air strikes. they would have had the means to shoot the Israelis out of the sky as the Hezbollah can do in Lebanon establishing a no fly zone there. and they would fight Turkey too, taking back their country..not to have to live with any dam Putin deal with Erdogan that cedes Syrian land to the Turks
but Putin insisted to be there, in charge in Syria, imposing his own problems through his contradictory decision-making, on the situation, usurping Assad and his responsibility for his own country. I will never forgive Putin for this and the Russian who let it happen. I don’t think the majority of the Russian people, the Russian nationalists are happy about this at all.
it is time for Putin to go..his useful shelf life is over. it is time. it does not even matter if an Atlanticist replaces him. that might precipitate the very socialist reform Russia needs..the development of popular ownership of business by the people,..buy out or government financed buy out of business in the name of the workers, the transfer of ownership to all who work in their industries..and all subsequent decision-making for their industries to be made by them. then they become responsible for the utilization of the technology of the day that eats jobs.
they will have to find ways to implement and consume the technology, clearing the decks for even more advanced technology, while at the same time maintaining ..indeed developing.. the security of workers/society
that is what Russia needs not Putins presidency anymore..and certainly no presidency from Among the atlanticists
but if that happens what the Atlanticist will do will do in the interest of late stage capitalism will surely bring the people out into the streets to deal irrevocably and finally with capitalism.
I did not want to post on this board anymore because I think I understand Putin as I have described him, found all the defence of him to be pointless and did not want to piss anyone off further. but this is a terrible situation, really bad. and Putin is awful, of no value any longer in the situation. it is time for him to go. I felt I had to say that once again
It may be that Putin’s/Russia’s presence in Syria fatally confuses the situation by introducing too many opportunities for triangulation: Constant shifting of temporary alliances to (temporarily) leave another party out in the cold, but htere there is another tactical shift, and suddenly a different entity turns out to be out in the cold.
This may be intentional state of affairs. But is does almost look as though Assad has one hand tied beyind his back.
OTOH, possibly if Russia had “adequately” armed Assad, it would have elicted a full-scale NATO-type attack. Russia’s presence has to make the Nato-ites a bit nervous, with the implicit threat of a much more serious confrtonation. Still, I wish Putin had stayed the course in 2015 , had foreseen that here were going to be endless escalations and transformations of the aggressor; the job was not going to be finished until Assad had regained total control back of the whole country, with defenses deployed to prevent further incursions—maybe some permanet Russian bases, a la the USA practice.
Having read the linked article, which was interesting, even if I don’t agree with everything written there.One point both you and Korybko missed I think is the simple fact, the Russian Federation, at the invitation of the Syrian leadership, only agreed to help defeat terrorists in Syria(something they are carrying on with great success FYI), no more, no less.
And even if you consider these attacks by Israel to be terrorism, I very much doubt Moscow designates Israel or the IDF as terrorist organisations.Plus, formally these attacks are acts of war against Syria and to my knowledge the Russian Federation never agreed to fight(or even help fight) any and all wars against Syria.So I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect the RF to do things they never agreed to do.
I understand Russia’s limited mission goals to preserve a Russian friendly government and destroy terrorists. This however is stupid if you make deals with Israel that wishes to destroy Syria and turn it into a terrorist safe haven and is the primary world aggressor along with the US that thumbs its nose at international law that Russia would like to enforce.
This is the Paradox that makes Russia’s actions so unpalatable.
I don’t expect Russia to be the worlds white knight but if u sleep with the enemy the sex had better be great!
Imagine if Russia had emerged from the wreckage of the Cold War as the undisputed global superpower, and a weakened United States had to watch as the Kremlin expanded a powerful, Russian-led military alliance to America’s borders, conducted alliance war games within sight of U.S. territory, interfered in Canada’s internal political affairs to oust a democratically elected pro-American government, and then pursued growing military ties with the new, anti-U.S. government in Ottawa. Yet that would be disturbingly similar to what Washington has done regarding NATO policy and U.S. relations with Ukraine.
Ted Galen Carpenter | The American Conservative
Nice take on things.
My personal way of say “what if this happened to America” is to use Texas as the equivalent of Ukraine. Texas has been seperate from the United States, and then a part of it long enough that everyone else kinda-sorta accepts Texans as being American. If you want to continue the analogy to a facist regime taking over, that fits Texas pretty well also. Texas Republicans are usually the kissing-cousins of fascists. The stories of the Sec of Energy going to Moscow and being a bully and making threats, well, Rick Perry became known nationally from the time he spent as Governor of Texas. From his attitude, they could make him an honorary Ukrainian no problem at all.
The drawback to that theory is that Texans talk even more funny than Canadians, heh? :)
Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif called out “the Trump administration’s sense of entitlement to destabilize the world along with rogue accomplices in our region” on Friday after the White House declared Iran to be the largest state sponsor of terror on Wednesday.
Zarif went on the offensive against Washington, listing in a tweet 11 actions undertaken by the US that are “not ‘normal.'” While the message follows the US State Department’s labeling of Iran as the leading global sponsor of terror, the use of the term “normal” alludes to the mid-August creation of the Iran Action Group, also by the State Department. In the statement announcing its foundation, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that the “Iranian people and the world are demanding that Iran finally act like a normal nation.”
— Javad Zarif (@JZarif) September 21, 2018
“It is not ‘normal’ to impose harsh sanctions that harm ordinary innocent people in the name of ‘standing with’ them,” Zarif seemingly fired back on Friday.”
Presumably USA’s backing Israels action at Syria….
“Coincidentally”….as Iran was celebrating 8 years of end of Iraq-Iran war……..terrorist attack….Rouhani had been commentating on underhand funding by usa of anti Iranian government group…….it ain’t gonna stop folks ….
Yes, at least 24 victims, including 8 IRGC and a journalist killed in a terrorist attack during a military parade in Ahvaz, Juzestán, in southern Iran. It seems that a group of strangers opened fire on the military parade.
A new terrorist group, IRNA, the Arab Democratic Patriotic Movement, linked to Saudi Arabia ( LOL ! for that of “democratic” and “patriotic” linked to SA….oh, wait….) claimed responsibility for the attack…..
Yes, and the Western media are careful not talking about a terrorist attack… it’s just an “attack”.
I agree that an exclusion zone is merited, expected it to come out hot, but maybe it will be enacted on the quiet to save Israeli face as you say.
What about the Fort-russ argument (sorry) that this is disinfo – the French shot the IL-20 down as an Imperialist provocation and issued a prepared denial, and the Russians didn’t take the bait, going for the Israeli “accident” narrative? Which RF has form on, as everything is “just an accident” pending a long, buried report whenever planes filled with prestigious bands or talented people go down…
Joaquin Flores’ article seems quite credible at first reading, except for a few things.
The French, are not quite THAT stupid – sure they probably lobbed a few bombs at Syria but not at The Russian Aircraft. They knew they were sitting ducks, and have now probably worked out why. This is not going to enhance French-Israeli relations.
Even us British are not quite THAT stupid. They admittedly were up in the air and watching what was going on – and they had a sub underwater – and they knew they were being tailed by 2 Russian subs, and even they realised.it simply wasn’t worth starting WWIII by shooting down a large old Russian airplane that had 15 very experienced Specialists onboard simply watching what was going on…and reporting live back to the groundstation as fast as modern communications allow.
Isreal. They are That Stupid.
The Americans weren’t even there.
Good result – We are all still here, and can mainly thank President Putin
In the process of dying, these Russian Servicemen may have prevented World War III from starting, and no human being can be more heroic than that.
Fair enough, Tony; but I think the whole point is Putin’s past “inactions” have been seen as a sign of weakness, so the Anglo-Zionists think they CAN get away with a provocation, trusting that Russia isn’t really interested in defending its interest, or risking WW3 to do so, to get a mandate for further “cost imposition” on Russia. This is exactly PCR’s, and other’s, point.
So your argument is one of brinkmanship (“they would not do that”) and that is the dividing line NO ONE knows the answer to, it is just supposition. They are not that stupid, but are they that arrogant? Are they so dangerously out of touch with Russian interests (realise they acknowledge no legitimate Russian interests) to be able to gauge a stupid action?
So I think the Flores angle still has to be accounted for.
“Even us British are not quite THAT stupid.”
Then I have one word for you: – “Skripal.”
You really are that stoopid – and then some.
What first attracted me to this site, as a bona fide ‘jew-hater’, was the honest and unprecedented, for a site which hosted, at the time at least, such high quality and unbiased analysis’, use of the word Anglo-Zionist.
To me, Putin was right up there competing with Syed Hassan Nasrallah as one of the few political world leaders guided by moral principles, taking these, as Jesus, peace be with him, called them, snakes and brood of vipers, head on.
That was years ago when this website still had the old design (how long has it been?4-5yrs?
Since then I’ve come to realize that, although accurate, it is useless to use that word when describing Russia’s, under Putin, struggle against it.
Why? He has no interest in fighting the Zio aspect of the Empire.
That is a simple statement, not a condemnation.
It is obviously up to him and ultimately the Russian people, to decide where their interests lie and what constitutes a threat to them and what doesn’t.
One might even say that Putin’s aim is not much to defeat the Anglo-Zionists but to join them, at best perhaps replace the Anglo aspect with Russia.
Right now they are just haggling of the terms.
What is clear is that the Zio aspect will be left wholly intact.
All those that support Putin thinking he is in the Middle East to ‘set things right’ or reign in Israel, think again.
Israel was set up by those that controlled the British Empire to amongst other, more future and esoteric reasons, divide, control and neutralize the Muslim lands.
To prevent from any unified power, whether it be Arab, Turk or Persian, emerging there that could threaten Europe.
That rationale still stands, and it will remain even more so for Russia or China.
You might as well say that this is a struggle between the AngloZionists and the RussZionists.
If by the time Russia and China (s)take their place in the coming multi-polar worldorder, they will be as ‘drenched’ with the Zios, what the point for rooting for unless you’re Russian or Chinese and one that places nationalism above all else, at that?
By now you might have guessed I am a Muslim but permit me to end my post with the following:
…Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save…
Interesting point, that Putin is not including the Zionists as targets of his defence of Russia and the world from the Western hegemon(s).
It is kind of frustrating that Putin does not seem to see the Zionists as a big problem for everyone!
I am with you. But we still have Syed Hassan Nasrallah to admire ;-). There are very few heroes, Muhammed Ali was another, but he is also a muslim :-). All the best.
Saker: “At this point, I need to ask another question: what would the Israelis gain from shooting down the Il-20?”
“On Monday night, a Russian Air Force Ilyushin IL-20 ‘Coot-A’ electronic intelligence and radar reconnaissance aircraft monitoring the Idlib province of Syria was mistakenly shot down by Syrian air defense forces after an Israeli air strike on facilities in Latakia, Syria. … The IL-20 is a variant of Ilyushin’s turboprop IL-18, an airliner first built in the late 1950s. It carries a large side-looking airborne radar (SLAR) in a torpedo-shaped pod under its fuselage, as well as a suite of signals collection antennae, infrared and optical sensors, and satellite communications gear. The aircraft is the Russian Air Force’s leading intelligence-collection platform, and at least one has been deployed to provide overwatch in Syria since 2015. It allows Russia to listen in to anti-government and ISIS fighters’ communications chatter and other electronic emissions, provide targeting data for Syrian military strikes, and keep an eye on the Turkish and US military units operating in and around Syria.”
If you read and re-read the above, it is clear that the Il-20 and it’s irreplaceable experienced crew would be a prime asset to take out. My opinion on the mechanics of how it happened was in a previous comment:
Here, I want to speculate on why it happened, given the ‘data’ in the ArsTechnica article. The Syrians had been amassing troops with the intent to take Idlib Province, once and for all. A massive battle was shaping up. The Russian and Turkish presidents (note: without the Syrian president!) crafted an ‘armistice’ arrangement that balanced Russian and Turkish interests in Idlib (note: without the Syrian president!). While postponing or eliminating the final battle, this agreement would have left President Assad firmly in place…
The problem with this arrangement for the Western powers (especially Israel, and those who created Israel) is that this essentially reverted things to the way before the Terror War began: President Assad had blocked the oil pipeline through Syria. Plus, a resurgent Syria could now influence any ‘bargaining’ around the semi-new oilfields between Cyprus and Syria/Lebanon (and Israel). Also, Syria, Iran, and Hezbollah were now tested and semi-trusted partners – an Israeli nightmare…
So, the why for the shootdown (IMHO) has to do with the above. Taking-out a valuable & critical ‘enemy’ asset would always be good for the Western/Israeli powers. However, that would be a pinprick and probably not worth the risk. Loss of trust and all that…
On the other hand, in the larger political & economic picture, the banksters are in a lot of trouble. Debt is exponentially rising, with attendant likelihood of a serious crash or major blowback. And the banksters will not consider a Debt Jubilee or similar step-back. The time-honored bankster way of side-stepping this state-of affairs is starting a serious (but not catastrophic) war. Passions rise, and background-debt is forgotten…
In my earlier comment, I mentioned the Russian radar picking-up a launch from the French frigate. I believe that could be a missile fired from a stealthy Israeli F-35 nearly overhead of the frigate. However, even if it was from the frigate itself, it would still serve the purpose of drawing-out a response from the Russians. If the Russians struck the French frigate, it would invoke the NATO charter. (And recently-elected French president Macron is suspected of being a Rothschild puppet.) The bankster mini-war would be up and running – especially if the mainstream media spun it as ‘unprovoked’ Russian aggression.
By the time the dust settled, a state of neverending war (not nuclear war) would be benefiting the banksters. (And yes, I believe the banksters could maintain the pot nearly boiling but never spilling-over into strategic nukes.) I truly suspect these were the strategic objectives surrounding the downing of the IL-20…
So i can trust that six months from now we well be hearing again from experts taking about how it was possible that say, Republic of San Marino shot down yet another Russian aircraft and which could be the measures to be taken to avoid this happening in the future. Ok, I get it.
Here we go again:
White Helmets making staged video of Idlib chemical attack — SANA
Good article, as always. One point of logical critique: You say: “Those who insist that this was a deliberate Israeli act need to come up with a halfway credible explanation not only for how this was done, but also why this was done.” – The last part – that there must be a explanation why it was done, is wrong. To solve a crime it is enough to show the evidence that this man/woman did in fact stab/shot this or that person. If you have a video and fingerprints on the knife it will be enough. If you know the “Why?” too, you have an EXPLANATION, why it was done, which feels better, but doesn’t add evidence, that it was done and who did it. Same in this case: If somebody finds a proof that “Bibi” told his officers: “Let’s make it in a way that the Russians lose some servicemen” and a proof that indeed the pilots of the Israelian planes were told to “cover behind the Russian plane” it would be enough. (I doubt both of it.) – the This argument is purely for scientific accuracy and has nothing to do with what I believe happened.
Well, dear Sherlock Holmes, the thing is that only the fact of seeking coverage from enemy fire behind an aircraft of a third part country when you are attacking another is by definition a declaration of war against this third part country ( i.e. Russia in this case…)
There there is the coordinated participation of France and UK to blow a warehouse supposedly destined to Hezbollah….Simply, the motives of this trio to attack at unison do not fit at all with the Israeli script….This must be why the Russians got stonefaced after seeing the videos and material brought by that Israeli commander….
“but also why this was done.”
I agree that this stipulation is couinterproductve and actually plays into the hands of those whose aim is to sideline legitimate questions and challenges.
It is one thing to speculate on motivation (as well as means and opportunity) and quite another to make definitive knowledge of the motive a precondition for continuing with the fundamental aspects of an investigation: What happened, how did it happen, who had the means and o pportunity to make it happen.
In the fog of war it is too easy to say “mistake,” and also to misdirect attention from the real reasons a crime was committed. Frankly, I should think that he value of the target is motivation in itself: to deprive Russia of this asset. Just like depriving an opponent of any valuable military asset—for example, also, by means of assassination of a general or a political leader. I see little to no difference.
Best comment on this article yet.
Now fulfill your reasoning and ask yourself ‘the question’!
I suspect it is possible that Putin is focusing on his proxy war against America. Other’s will have to wait their turn and are not being permitted to distract from the main event. (I’m neither a Putin fan nor detractor, although as a Gaelic-Anglo-Saxon [yes, mixed race] I don’t subscribe to the “strong man” politics which dominate much of the non-Western world… having said that I don’t subscribe to the spineless, corrupt, back-stabbing, lily-livered, queer politicians and their banker over-lords ruling the West either.)
That depends on what you mean by being a “strong” man.
The way I see it, many westerners have knee-jerk negative reactions every time they see the word “strong man” publicized by western big media.
Western big media are notoriously known to twist word meanings to suit its agenda. If being “strong” applies to every rulers not being elected then there is no moral high ground to claim since critics of strongmen also don’t have alternatives to these strongmen either.
If being a “strong” man also means someone not afraid of being badly perceived by western big media claiming to represent the “international community” then it’s also BS.
As a non-westerner, “strong man” to me positively means a ruler having real power and not just being a figurehead being controlled by his master(s).
Needless to say, it doesn’t mean that being a “strong man” automatically means that the person is a true leader too. That will depends whether he is truly care about his country, his people.
This is something that no matter how sophisticated a government system is, it can guarantee.That’s why debating whether a form of government is better than others is a waste of time and energy. What matters more is whether a ruler is a real leader really cares about his country, his people.
I’m defining “Strong Man” as a one-party, or effectively one-party government system. The Chinese, and many African countries come under this category more than Russia, although I’d put Putin in the “effectively one-party government”. As for the media, there has never been any form of media which doesn’t have an axe to grind or barrow to push – the entire industry is at a low point of credibility right now and at risk of becoming irrelevant. However the social planners have done such a good job at stupefying such a large portion of the population the mass media as it is might be just what the majority want!
putin could offer a bait to bibi by allowing iran to transfer arms/equipment at this time and if bibi again makes the effort to bomb it, offer iran/syria the most accurate information how to blast all the f16s that may be flying up in the sky. what will bibi do? bomb iran?
I read you often and I am always in line with your analysis.
This time though, I sincerely think that you missed the point. The discussion whether the Israeli have down the Il20 on purpose or by error is quite futile, at this stage of the Syrian war.
The core of the matter is the fact that Israel , and with her/it the whole world, you include, considers absolutely normal to continuously bomb a neighboring country (200 Attacks in 18 Months, as declared by Israeli PM), in spite that this country (Syria) is allied with Russia in the Syrian war. The ZIonist entity deemed all right to attack Syrian target so close to a Russian base.
Sad to say that if this Il-20 had not been shut down, you would not have probably devoted so much attention to just another israeli incursion.
*Why?* is Russia allowing hostile aircraft to fly around Syria is the *real* question.
Since the Syrians can’t do it, Russians must close airspace around Syria to NATO-aligned aircraft.
This would preclude the possibility of Russian or Syrian military assets, including bases and airplanes, from getting attacked and destroyed along with their personnel.
Someone tell me.
Why are Israeli and American planes with clearly hostile intentions even permitted to fly within 50 kilometers (remember Lebanon and standoff missiles?) of Syrian borders? And why does Putin enable the Israelis to bomb his allies in Syria with impunity?
Because Putin is trying to walk a tightrope between saving Syria, and avoiding Israel dragging us all into WW3. Putin knows if he starts downing Israeli planes, the Israelis will run screaming to the US, and if the latter weighs in and attacks the Russian bases, Russia will then have no choice but to militarily respond.
The critical issue here is that Israel is quite prepared to ignite a far larger and more devastating conflict, in pursuit of their own national interest. We can all be thankful Putin hasn’t allowed them to do that.
The tightwalk strategy has worked so far: Russia lets Israel attack “Iranian” targets in Syria, while Russia continues to try to wrap up the campaign against ISIS. The Israeli back-stabbing and loss of the IL-20 now reveals the limitations of that strategy, but up until now, it has worked. If Putin doesn’t establish a no-fly zone and so on from now on, he can be quite rightly criticised. But I think it’s unreasonable to criticise him for trying to keep a lid on things up to now.
‘Now” is done and dusted with Israel acting so close to Russian bases in Syria, endangering Russian troops and causing a death of 15 servicemen. The question is, is this enough for Russia to finally set red lines in Syria?
I am not really convinced it is.
The critical issue here is that Israel is quite prepared to ignite a far larger and more devastating conflict, in pursuit of their own national interest. We can all be thankful Putin hasn’t allowed them to do that.
Putin cannot stop them from doing that either. The truth is Israel and the Trump regime and NATO are building up regardless of what Russia says or does. At the end of the day Russia cannot stop the lunatics in Israel and USA and France and UK. Russia can only respond to any attack.
Israel needs to be made to understand that Israel itself will not be spared in case of a larger and more devastating conflict. The problem here of course is that the Israeli leadership is insane, and may see a defeat in Syria as so unacceptable they will launch WWIII to prevent it. But Russia cannot be blackmailed like that or this blackmail never ends.
Israeli targets: Tartus and Latakia. Enought Said!…if you are not Dumb.
What I wrote in another article thread upon the breaking of the original news is the core of the attack.
The Israelis wanted the IL-20 down. It was like the USS Liberty, recording the IDF attack on Syria, gathering the communications between, not only the F-16s but among the US, Israeli, and UK and French. The IL-20 was on a mission over Idlib, but so are and were the Hegemon’s allies in all forms: jets, drones, on the ground assets, proxies, contractors, et al. And most likely, the coming coordinated attack manifested by the F-16s.
The Liberty was recording the crimes of the IDF back then, and the IL-20 was recording all the salient features of the massive attack on Syria. Massive enough for the S-400s to be activated that night.
Knowing well how Israel reacts to “proof gathering” of their war crimes, it is elementary that the IDF had decided to take down the plane. They calculated the “cost” to the relationship between Putin and Israel and decided that it was well worth it. The lives of the Russians mean nothing in their calculus. In 1968 they attacked the Liberty for over an hour and a half, killing 34 and wounding 171, using sea-based and airplanes to do the deed.
This is all in the processes of war. It is simple. Nothing confounding about what the IDF did or would do again tonight.
The IL-20 had to be eliminated and it was.
mod-to note: The Israeli government reaction to this tragedy belies the notion that this was premeditated (planned). See
The Saker’s article “Putin, Israel and the downed Il-20” posted Sept 21, 2018.
“Belies the notion” is mumbo jumbo from you. The Israeli reaction is part of the crime.
That they have a track record, as I and history documented, and the “accident” as they have pitched in their reaction is their response is in the former fact highly relevant and in the latter excuse obscurantism.
That Saker might disagree with my comment is not important either way.
The MOD quite agrees. In fact, I take my lead from Shoigu, not Saker or Bibi’s criminal military.
I find you commenting on my comment a Vineyard first. Inserting your POV is frankly way out of bounds.
mod-to note: Point taken. Please excuse my indiscretion.
Have a good day.
I stand by what I’ve said earlier. This attack was carefully planned and carried out, the target was the IL. Israel gave ‘one minute’, actually slightly less, notice that they were attacking, the vic was patterned for a different target, and when the one minute warning was given, they instantly rearranged themselves, used the IL for cover for at least one plane, launched some missiles and hightailed it for home. The missile was fired at an Israeli F 16 which instantly maneuvered to uncover the IL, the missile lost track on the ’16 and chose the nearest target, the IL. All this took but seconds and the IL went down. The french frigate was window dressing, all his missiles were shot down.
To promulgate a different scenario is to belie common sense.
Sevastopol, The Third Defense. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079KRPLS4 Book 1, A Premonition, The Move South. Set against a backdrop of real events and real places, the reader is left to filter fact from fiction.
An Incident On Simonka https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ERKH3IU March 2014. NATO Is Invited To Leave Sevastopol, One Way Or The Other.
Its also an explanation with due logic and sense. II-20 was gathering Intelligence in the area where 4 x F16 should fire missiles.
The F-16 Commander shoots II-20, the other F-16 shoots the targets. USA has used Israel as scapegoat before to avoid being shot at by Russia.
Of course Israel meant to do what it did.
Don’t be fooled by Israeli play-acting . . . after the fact, of course!!!
After you have achieved your goal, you can say anything and tear your hair and rend your garments, etc.
It’s called spin.
I would agree that the Israelis had the “response” all figured out before the multiple assassination in the air.
We all know that:
Israel has lied consistently
Israel lies consistently
Israel will lie
Yet surprisingly, Israel for some reason is almost always given the benefit of the doubt – at least by the MSM and the useless goyim.
If Israel bombs a kindergarten and then claim that Hezbollah rockets were being stored there, the stupid goyim sucks it up.
The MSM repeats their claims as fact and the stupid goyim believes it or appear indifferent.
Israel bomb all over Syria and try to justify it by claiming that weapons are being transferred to Hezbollah or that Iran is establishing bases.
Israel currently enjoys carte blanche immunity in perpetrating heinous crimes across the globe.
This status quo is not sustainable!
Their numerous crimes are an affront to all humanity.
The Zionist entity must and will eventually be brought to account.
Russia and Iran will both play key roles in ensuring that Israel is eventually brought to account for its crimes.
This is not my personal opinion.
This is something decreed by God, and as such, must be fulfilled.
The key issue here, and as a consequence of which the Il-20 was shot down, is that the Zionist apartheid regime has given itself the right to attack Syria whenever and where ever they so desire.
After this attack Russia can no longer sit on the fence without losing major face and diplomatic power. Putin cannot both declare himself to be a proponent of international law and at the same time not enforce international law when it comes to a matter of his own sphere of influence, in this case a Syrian ally. It is this incongruity Israel is exploiting to undermine Putin and Russia in Syria. This also establishes Israeli dominance as a fact. If Russia does not address this situation in all aspects of the situation the war is lost and Russia will eventually crumble again.
Russia needs to:
– enforce Russian military integrity, which means
– enforce Syrian integrity, which in effect means
– consign Israel/NATO to Israeli and international territory and respond to any Israeli/NATO attack on Syria.
This really was an attack on Putin himself as well, the 5th columnists are clearly working to destabilize the response to this Israeli/NATO back stab. A weak response here undermines the entire war effort in Syria and Putin himself. Russia cannot allow itself to become a variation of the Palestinian people that the Zionists can murder at will and get away with it.
Putin also needs to use this situation to weed out any pro-Zionists lurking in his administration or close to it. Anyone not siding with Russia here clearly does not have Russia’s best interest at heart.
Right from the start, it’s bothered me … that less than 1 minute warning.
Why issue a warning you’re coming when you’re already there? When you know the Russians already know you’re there? What’s the point of the warning then?
Because… it wasn’t a warning to the Russians, it was a message: “The plane is in range – shoot now.” And someone did.
Daft you say? Well, I read this:
“Komsomolskaya speaks to Lieutenant-Colonel Viktor Khaustov, who is a deputy commander of an anti-aircraft missile regiment, and served a tour in Syria himself”
“– What kind of plane is it, IL-20?
“”Oh, I can tell you about it all day!” Both in the school, and in the academy passed the exams. Yes, and in Syria in the “womb” climbed … But briefly, it is a plane of electronic intelligence and electronic warfare.
“It is equipped with an infrared scanner, optical sensors. There is also a lateral radar.
“There is a station of detailed electronic intelligence “Kvadrat-2” and radio intercept equipment “Cherry”. At our VKS such planes of pieces 20. And all of them have passed a deep modernization. Our “Ilyusha” have well proven themselves in Syria, coordinating the attacks of the Russian Air Force on terrorists.
“He also has another unique “chip” – he can correct the flight of the cruise missiles “Caliber” when they approach the target … Do you remember the launch of our missiles from the water area of the Caspian Sea? Their attacks would be less accurate, if not for the high-class work of the IL-20 operators. I will say more. Our ground-attack planes and bombers are precisely reaching the target, also with the help of IL-20 equipment. But enemy locators do not see them at this time, its anti-aircraft missile systems simply do not observe anything on their screens, thanks to the operation of the radio-electronic countermeasure equipment installed on our reconnaissance aircraft …”
That is quite a piece of equipment, and add it to this:
Nobody rings the doorbell once the door has been opened so…
It wasn’t warning to the Russians, it was a message to NATO.
And with love from Israel the Betrayer.
“its (IL-20) anti-aircraft missile systems simply do not observe anything on their screens, thanks to the operation of the radio-electronic countermeasure equipment installed on our reconnaissance aircraft”
A technical question:: If the IL-20 has this ECM how did the ground radar see the IL-30 and the antiquated S-200 radar that is in its nose and that guides it once launched manage to hit the IL-20? With the side scanning look down radar in the IL-20 and all the analysts reading this data, how did they fail to see the 4 Israeli F-16s?
Was someone asleep at the wheel?
We still don’t know what the treacherous French frigate’s targets were. Russia confirmed they launched missiles. If I was a relative of those killed I’d be tempted I think, with more than one minute warning, to send some nice fat cruise missiles and conduct a safe kinetic empirical experiment on one of the Eiffel Tower’s pegs.
That kind of counselling might adjust the Gallic colonial arrogance.
This makes a hell of a lot of sense.
That is a good piece Saker! Indeed, everybody is screaming for blood, but particularly not their own blood to be spilled. The israelis are not superhumans, they can screw up too, as most military’s in history have evidently demonstrated demonstrated, in fact its more the rule they do.
Von Clausewitz : No plan survives first engagement.
You can only plan for what you know, if you factor in unknowns you will become immobilized, unable to act. On the battlefield you act on the “now” because if you are dead, plans matter not. But planning can survive first engagement, if your planning included “maskirovka” , deceit and luring.
I also do not think the Israelis willfully directed a missile towards the Russian airplane, Russia has been a too good partner for Israel to endanger the relations.
Let it be known , I have absolutely no love for the Apartheid regime in Tel Aviv, and I am part Jewish, although my looks would qualify me for a SS regiment, tall ,blonde and arctic blue eyes. I do not in any circumstance, endorse Fascism.
I think the reasoning here is very sober and logic, yes the IAF made a colossal blunder, involountarily, tha caused 15 servicemen their lives. God have mercy on them!
We can speculate all we want, but we are lacking info, I doubt that President V. Putin is lacking info, and whatever he chooses to do, it will be very well considered. As always.
Indeed, everybody is screaming for blood, but particularly not their own blood to be spilled.
There are so many people who dream of being foot soldiers at Stalingrad ready to die for Stalin or Hitler. You can only admire their desire to see their children melt before their eyes and their lives irradiated. The simple joy people today express art the thought of “martyrdom” in some great cause leaving behind their electronic toys and cars and fine clothes to die for a cause. The simple act of using a keyboard to demand a nuclear winter is one future generations may reflect on
It is not Russia or the people opposing the Zionist regime who are calling for “a nuclear winter”. In society we put psychotic people away because they are a health hazard to others and themselves.The problem now is that a few psychotic nations are playing nuclear black mail to get what they want on behalf of every body else. It is a matter of public safety to limit the damage Israel et al can do. Israel will never stop unless it realizes the cost will be higher than what they are prepared to gamble. It is not right to give in to black mail because the black mail will never end.
If the people of Israel and the US do not rise up to overthrow the Zionist regimes it is only a matter of time before these regimes trigger a global disaster. Putin and Russia can only be pushed so far before they can bend no more and either break or push back.
Even if the downing of the Il-20 was an accident, the way Israel handled the situation turned the situation into psychological warfare against Russia on top of the tragedy.
Russia cannot let this slide because it will demoralize the armed forces to be raped and insulted by Israel at will. Russia cannot accept the double standards Israel (and the US) is trying to impose on it.
No doubt Israel and the Trump regime are looking for ways to create another 9/11 situation, this time with Russia as the target, in order to push forward their agendas, but ultimately Russia can only be responsible for Russia. It is not Russia’s job to be the conscience of the world and subjugate to the Zionists.
A little bit different tune if we have to believe Voltairenet where event is clearly defined as joint attack of the Russian plane by France-GB-Israel
The link is to the Spanish page, because of a typo evident in the French page. Excerpt,
“El ejercicio militar ruso tiene lugar después del reciente derribo de un avión militar ruso durante un ataque conjunto británico-franco-israelí contra un objetivo situado en la región siria de Latakia, el 17 de septiembre”.
Is it an entirely different plane than IL20, or what ?
Whether intentional, improvised or accidental, the downing of the russian plane is another successful provocation, with a win-win effect.
A russian defense system downing a russian plane is definitely a russian embarrassment. Whether this was planned to happen this way by Israel, or just a « happy » fluke (for the West), I can’t say. But ultimately it’s a win for western aggression.
Either Putin retaliates – which would be an escalation, which is exactly what the West wants – or he doesn’t – which makes him look weak, undermining his leadership and increasing the pressure on him. Win-win.
Just because retaliation fulfills the wishes of an enemy that seeks escalation doesn’t mean restraint can be claimed as a victory, especially with an enemy that’s psychologically predisposed to reading weakness into inaction (as projecting cowards or maniacs are wont to do). This is not the obverse of a coin.
Certainly, any gesture that involves Putin hoping to ‘convey a message’ remains either unread or badly misconstrued. What’s a message to a madman anyway? Putin lacks a partner who wishes to avert WW3. It’s as simple,and as terrifying as that. Even worse. Putin faces an enemy that perceives advantage in unleashing WW3, and the sooner the better. Think of the Prisoner’s Dilemma where one prisoner is determined to have both he and his comrade thrown into the darkest dungeon.
How can war be postponed, never mind averted, with one foe hellbent on starting it? This foe will not be disabused of his seeming death-wish. There is a time-criticality that works against peace too: each unanswered provocation emboldens the coward to strike ever harder. So there is a progessivity to the incitements.
At the same time, restraint chips away at all parties’ perception of the restrained party, as unfair as this might be. Even the best will ask, is he being resolute or hesitant?
With war thus inevitable, all that can be done is to select the most optimal place, time and circumstance. Is this the last sentence PCR always resists putting to paper?
You may well be right Saker, the israelis just screwed up.
That being the case, as per the israeli method the compensation in pounds of flesh must be delivered.
Nitwityahoo should be the one who selects fourteen young israeli service personnel for that payment.
israel is a partner this was a terrible mistake or possibly an iranian or hezbollah trap.
the massive leviathan oil and gas the lpg projects golan oil the oil and gas projects off cyprus these are mega projects with israel and russia working as family why would israel damage these partnerships.
israel provides much military technology to partners in russia and china it would be crazy to put 10s of billions of dollars at risk.
it just does not make sense assad and the french are just as much to blame.
this should be chalked up to simply a complicated mission and the fog of war the s200 systems should have been decommissioned in the 1980s they are clearly very dangerous now.
putin and netanyahoo are great friends clearly if some pilot as made an error he should be reprimanded and as the british say lessons should be learned and if mistakes have been made with luck they will be corrected
@Golda You ask a good question. Why would Israel jeopardize the relationship with Russia? The answer is quite simple and obvious. Israel was willing to take down the IL-20 for the same reason Israel was willing to attack the USS Liberty. Israel did this despite the possibility of damaging the relationship with the United States.
The answer is that for Israel, security concerns will always be placed first. Israel will neither compromise nor apologize in this regard. Clearly, Israel saw the mission of the IL-20 as a security threat and acted. The relationship with Russia suits the interests of Israel but it’s not appropriate to relate this to a personal or emotional level. Ultimately, Israel’s actions suit the needs of Israel and Israel can never really be an ally of the US, Russia or any gentile nation.
The Russian plane should not have been in the area of POSSIBLE offensive fire and POSSIBLE defensive fire. This is a general rule that applies equally to ground and naval war also. This mistake is the reason for friendly fire deaths. It was a Russian defensive mistake and a failure of intelligence coordination. Russia must remember that both the Syrians and Iranians have flacky intelligence and military coordination that is mostly of ego serving hot air threats. Please save me from the oh my the enemy did not play fair bull.
Bob try this at CNN here its senseless
Well argued but it gave the impression the IL-20 EW was not being tracked and monitored by NATO radar or space-based assets. Yes, it’s certainly plausible that the Israeli might have screwed up … however, consciously missing an elephant right infront of their noses? A very difficult act. With the attack, they already know there’s a very high probability of an S-200 response.
To expect such level of incompetence from the Israeli command air staff is another hard swallow. Here’s the golden question, have you heard anyone getting officially fired or reprimanded?
We come down to the motive or raison d’être. My guess, it’s a personal attack on Putin and his image. It fits the timeline after he had to explain the pension reform issue (I noted Pravda went on the offensive). With PCR barking up his tree, the downing of the IL-20 is likely another psychological ploy to fire up the Russian people to demand action which they expected Putin to douse at the cost of his popularity.
I think we might be seeing more this in the future.
What the Russians were doing, during the night of 9.18.18 in Syria?
Russia Deploys More S-400 Missile Systems to Syria
FILE – In this file photo taken Dec. 16, 2015 and provided by the Russian Defense Ministry Press Service, Russian S-400 long-range air defense missile systems are deployed at Hemeimeem air base in Syria. (Vadim Savitsky/Russian Defense Ministry Press Service via AP, File)
Russia is reportedly increasing the number of S-400 surface-to-air missile systems in western Syria, where it operates maritime and air forces.
Two mobile missile batteries have been delivered to Khmeimim air base in Latakia province, while another two went to Tartus naval port on the Mediterranean Sea, according to RT, the Russian government-funded news outlet.
The S-400 Triumph air defense system integrates a multifunction radar, autonomous detection and targeting systems, anti-aircraft missile systems, launchers, and command and control center. It is capable of firing three types of missiles to create a layered defense.
The system can engage all types of aerial targets including aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), and ballistic and cruise missiles within the range of 400km, at an altitude of up to 30km. The system can simultaneously engage 36 targets.
The S-400 is two-times more effective than previous Russian air defense systems and can be deployed within five minutes. It can also be integrated into the existing and future air defense units of the Air Force, Army, and the Navy.
Russian military capabilities in event of Western strike on Syria
MOSCOW (Reuters) – Russia has said it will target U.S. missiles and the ships or planes that fire them if an attack on Syria threatens the lives of its own military personnel based there. [nL8N1RO176][nL8N1QV5LM]
Here’s what we know about Russian military capabilities in Syria:
Is any responsibility for Russian, not doing enough to warn and protect theirs IL-20, and the life of 15 Russians officers?
If the Israeli and NATO “Partners” behave in so Hostile way against Russians, what is the opinion of the Russian people to continue or bring in an end this “Partnership”.
Even a 5th grader can understand that Russia isn’t a match for Israeli – NATO forces at Syria.
So, why the Russian military are still in Syria?
Are Russians willing to Trade Moscow for Damascus?
I don’t think so.
Putin recently spoke to students about Artificial Intelligence (AI) (THE ALL POWERFUL) leading, as the future reality – in world earth, unfolds.
AI (e.g. robots) shot down and not human beings? Indeed!! A new game amongst the players in the mass murdering of our own species.
Globalization is not a new idea in respect to war and winner takes all that can be gotten.
Have humans evolved?
Israeli Rabbis continue the sacrifical lamb practice, the Metzitzah B’peh and western medicine continues the Mengele Nazi practices. Banksters manufacture debt and charge humans compound interest to live in earth.
The problems our species must solve are complex. It appears highly doubtful AI is going to be an invention, absent the human imagination.
Why is the genius of imagination ~ an impotent & powerlessness ~ in this time?
How fortunate >>Saker site magnetizes an evolved “thinking stuff” >>thanks!
We all the same species can in our minds visualize & cocreate the life we imagine.
We do not need other than our intention in focused verve attention.
>>We are the dreamers and the dream.
I tend to disagree with you on that. What were the israeli planes doing in a region where there is no Iran or Hezbollah like they like to bark continuously, and where they know there are the main russian bases (Hmeymin and Tartus)?
After reading this from the Russia top echelon themselves and you still think there is no powerful zionist lobby and 5th columnist in Russia, then you are a lost cause.
And, Hegemon “Partners” are killing Russian not only in Syria. They are involved in Ukraine too, and the number of Russian innocent civilians overpassed 10 thousands, not considering destruction and still there is hard evidence that American English spoken soldiers are involved, side by side with Ukrainian Army.
‘Outta my face!’ Foreign fighters filmed on ground with Kiev army.
And these hostile actions of hegemon against Russia, are considered “tragical incidents” , and the partnership with Israelis – NATO colleagues is going on, and on …. and on.
The question is: Who controls the Russian people?
Is this control was accepted by Consent or Conquest?
Results Mortality increased substantially after the economic crisis in 1998, with life expectancy falling to 58.9 years among men and 71.8 years among women by 2001. Most of these fluctuations were due to changes in mortality from vascular disease and violent deaths (mainly suicides, homicides, unintentional poisoning, and traffic incidents) among young and middle aged adults. Trends were similar in all parts of Russia. An extra 2.5-3 million Russian adults died in middle age in the period 1992-2001 than would have been expected based on 1991 mortality.
But these changes in mortality were due to ( homicides, unintentional poisoning, and traffic incidents), An extra 2.5-3 million Russian adults died in middle age in the period 1992-2001. The cause of this recent dramatic decrease in life expectancy is not known.
But we know that:
In the seventeen years between 1992 and 2009, the Russian population declined by almost seven million people, or nearly 5 percent—a rate of loss unheard of in Europe since World War II. Moreover, much of this appears to be caused by rising mortality. By the mid-1990s, the average St. Petersburg man lived for seven fewer years than he did at the end of the Communist period; in Moscow, the dip was even greater, with death coming nearly eight years sooner.
The deaths kept piling up. People—men and women—were falling, or perhaps jumping, off trains and out of windows; asphyxiating in country houses with faulty wood stoves or in apartments with jammed front-door locks; getting hit by cars that sped through quiet courtyards or plowed down groups of people on a sidewalk; drowning as a result of diving drunk into a lake or ignoring sea-storm warnings or for no apparent reason; poisoning themselves with too much alcohol, counterfeit alcohol, alcohol substitutes, or drugs; and, finally, dropping dead at absurdly early ages from heart attacks and strokes.”
Was this the last struggle of Russian people before they were totally Subdued by NWO?
Does NWO was imposed to the Russian people by Conquest?
Time will tell.
Russia made a stupid startegic error in placing its plane between possible offensive and defensive fire. Stalin would have had the general in charge shot.
Also, where does every one get this childish idea that Russia is in Syria for the protection of Syrians. Russia is in Syria because of Russian defensive interests. Like the US in NATO, the US does not give a rat rectum for Europen lives. It is there to protect itself from Russia.
As for excuses, they are not accepted in war. There is no excuse for a screw up.
As for Europe. My impression of Europe is that the modern Europeans could not replicate the amazing a beautiful work of pre 19th century Europe. The modern Europeans are on average 30 points of an IQ rating below the Europeans that built monuments to Western Civiliization. I would ike to see Europe preserved as a historic theme park. Otherwise, this western penis of Asia has no future. It has gone limp.
I think that if Syria had shot that plane down – accidentally and as described by the Russian MOD – then President Asaad would have gone on TV to apologise to the Russian people and offer the bereaved his condolences. He’d have explained what happened and apolgised. He would have expressed his gratitude to the people and given an assurance he would do everything in his power to ensure such a tragedy never happened again.
Not when it happened and not even now a week later after Russia has accused Israel of criminal negligence and direct fault. 15 of his main ally’s men died and all he’s said is “Israel is to blame” – with some interesting adjectives.Link to Pres. Assad’s apology for other commenters https://www.rt.com/newsline/438906-kremlin-receives-assad-telegram/ Mod.
– also read somewhere that soon after it happened the Syrians handed radar data over to the Russians to show they had not shot down that plane. But that was a Greek news site I don’t know and their source was unverified. But who knows.
I have read your update.
I appreciate your reluctance to grasp the obvious a few days ago. But now, you have come closer to those among your readers, who jumped to what you have recognized was the right conclusion. The key is -and was from the very beginning- the immediate conviction of the Russian military that the Israelis were clearly responsible.
Now I join you in hoping that the “Putin-haters”, as you have described them, will stop hating Putin very shortly, once Russia’s countermeasures become known.
Ok, just today Israel says they will continue to carry on any attack on sirian soil in any time and in any area they want, and they will never accept any restriction to do that.
Israel also have officially declared that the F-16 jets were in the israeli air-space when the IL-20 was shot-down by the syrian missiles, and so general Konashenkov and Shoigu are blatant liars
a) Israel will continue making exactly the same she has done; so she will never inform the russian forces in advance of the coming attacks because they know the russians will inform immediately the iranians and hezbollah. So they will bomb when and where they want regardless of the russian presence
b) They do not accept any blaming for the incident, so they will never apologize, and then they are showing that, in fact, the russian officers in Syria and the ministry of defense are liars covering-up the truth
Well, they will test from now on how it pays after killing Russians for pleasure…It seesm that some F16 has been invited to return their holy land when over Tripoli…and there have been a feverish cargo activity with huge planes implied at Hmeimin today….
BTW, as a foot note, I am puzzled about why in the Earth you talk about Israel as a “she”…”She” israel is not…like they are Russia and Syria….please, avoid feminicing that entity….
Sweden is today a tool of the U.S. war machine, as Sweden have a deal with Nato
about deploy troops, and defend Sweden in the case of attack, (from the you-know-who.) Sweden took part of the US/Nato attack to smash Libya 2011, and joins the Nato/US forces in Afghanistan.Sweden are now buying the Patriot-missiles, and have really came out of the cloak. Sweden takes an offensive stand against Russia,and is very close to the nuclear 2nd strikebases at the Murman bases, closer to St Petersburg, and the Kaliningrad base. Think this is the Swedish cards, not that close to the chest, to invite the Nato/excercises, with over 100 planes,
in High north of Sweden, not that dense populated areas, a year restricted the whole of ” Norrland”, and a British carrier made it to the Bottenviken. The Minister
of defence, visiting both Georgia, Ukraine, and WH, inspecting honor guards. He is of Finnish origin, and by that Russophob. But we go back to 1952, June 13, then a Russian MiG-15 downed a Swedish sig./Int DC-3,with U.S. gears and the crew died, 8 man. The Russians accused the aircraft, for spying of the Soviet air guidance and radar facilities in the Baltic States, to prepare for a US/Nato nuclear strike, against the big cities, in the western Soviet. The USAF and the RAF even made big intrusions that years, for training, but the Russians couldn’t punish them until the U-2 downing, May 1, 1960. That´s the historical situation.But Sweden today, even they had a sig/int aircraft doing missions outside Syria, this summer from Cyprus. That’s the new Swedish offensive spirit against Russia, but it couldn´t
fight the comprehensive forestfires this summer, without help. Sweden is today taking the role of front state against Russia, since the Ukraine crisis, 2015. How come ? Rather good protected of the geography, but close to important Russian
targets, as mentioned: Murman/Petersburg/Kaliningrad, and the other day Sweden returned to Gotland with a new tankregiment. But, what had happened if the Israelis
had used the Swedish spy plane as cover ? A big risk here for Sweden, but of course that was never planned, I think the Israelis are far more tricky, people, unreliable, delusive, they refer, to their historical role as victims, and can by that allow themselves to do everything they can figure out. But in the end one need a modern army, not tricks.
Personally, I was shocked by some of the details that the Russian MOD revealed. It turns out that my take on what had happened was wrong. My main mistake was that I gave the Israelis too much credit for being, in the Russian MOD’s word, “civilized.”
What surprised me was the part where the planes made their initial attack, then turned on their radar jammers and returned to a patrol off the coast. Then, one plane came in and came close to the IL-20. I had previously been more to the Saker’s earlier point of view, that going behind the IL-20 might have been a natural move to make in combat when missiles were coming at them. But no, from the Russian MOD briefing, it appeared far more deliberate to send a plane near the IL-20 to draw fire in that direction.
Even worse was that it was apparently mis-information from the Israelis leading to the plane being in that position. The Israelis had told the Russians at the very last moment that they would be attacking “northern Syria”. The Russians then tried to move the IL-20 out of that region and told it to come home and land. Which put it right into the middle of the Israeli raid.
That all combines to looking a lot more like the Israelis deliberately gave the Russians mis-information to move the plane, then the Israelis launched a first attack on the Syrians that drew fire, then after all of that, when everything has been set to make the Syrians have itchy fingers on a fire button, one F-16 moved towards the approach path of the main airport in the region.
I had been discounting that the Israelis had the deliberate goal of bringing down that plane. But the Russian MOD presentation made me wonder. It could all be a series of screwups, but it also looked very nasty.
If I was the Russians, I’d be hopping mad. And I got that impression from the briefer from the Russian MOD. A controlled anger seemed to come across. The fact that the Israelis tried to fly to Moscow to deliver a big load of cow droppings would make it even worse.
Towards the end, the list of ways in which the Russians had cooperated with the Israelis sounded like it included a few things that the Russian MOD would recommend to Putin that they do not do again after this.
I am happy that someone who seems bright and in control of his government and who appears to have a competent and well-led military is formulating the response to this. If you want nightmares, picture Trump having to deal with a similar decision.
China, Russia, and Iran are being attacked economically, politically and militarily. If they do not coordinate to defend themselves and respond to every provocation, the West and Israel will end up corralling them and forcing them to do what they are ordered to do.
On the Update:
I see it as a classic swing back in the other direction, as it was in the initial reaction to the tragedy.
[paraphrased] The be a response to this unambiguous series of actions which in a premeditated way, risks Russian lives, and resulted in the death of Russian, must be this, it must be that, it has to be… or its the fifth column holding him back; he’s stuck between a rock and a hard place.[end of paraphrase summary]
Then there was the rational, balanced, best course of action, the rational course of action in highly complex and combustive situation.
Now, back to this?!
It will not change the best course of action (as outlined in your previous article); make public facts which leaves the maximum room for scope of actions going forward, investigate, know all that can be known in a reasonable amount of time, take actions to mitigate, and convey justice, under Russian law, and yet, subordinated to the longer-term first principle, the best survival of Russian people, under the intact sovereignty of Russian governance.
I believe that it might be more a sign of the fifth column at work, if this public declaration from the MoD further constrains Putin’s latitude of choices.
With Bolton and Pompeo in place, the illegal occupiers and perpetrators of premeditated, intentional genocide against the aboriginal peoples, do what their self-perpetuating neurotically indoctrinated global collective has done for over two centuries, they game the higher moral standard of their enemy (anyone who is not them) to either advance their agenda, i.e. start a conflict, or b. gain an ego victory, as it seems in this case, so far.
Gaming the system, even when gambling the survival of humanity!
That, is what the proponents of humanity are dealing with!
The flightcrew will secretly get accolades, no matter what the … leadership there… makes public statements about; they have an extremely reliable trend of making public declarations to the turn of whatever they can get away with, with no discernible correlation to actual facts, whatsoever; facts for them are whatever can be said to favour them the most at the time (it’s that situational intelligence, dontcha know).
Where did the French firing of the missiles at a similar time as the downing of the IL-20 factoid go to?!
One must ask oneself, is the rattling of sabres by the Russian leadership, i.e. “…declare an air exclusion zone of about 100km around her forces in Syria and declare that any Israeli aircraft entering that zone, or firing a missile into it, will be immediately shot down…., and openly making a big deal about bringing in more armaments?
One might assume that they will be bringing in additional armaments, but only if it can pervasively be shown to be the best contributor to the best outcome.
As for issuing restrictions to the …you-know-who-da, again, it would appear that there is a preliminary prerogative to change the terms of the agreements with them, since … well, 15 Russians died, and you-know-who-da (what?! surprise, surprise?!) didn’t keep their end of the bargain, even after massively benefiting from the Russians, at pains, keeping their terms?!
Certainly Putin has to deal with the entrenched fifth column.
Certainly he has to deal with Russian public opinion.
Could this situation have even been designed to try to trap him between these two pressures?
But we have a strong trend of Putin doing the best that he can, cover story with latitude, investigate, mitigate, when the best situations arrive, and they will arrive, because the behaviours of the enemies of humanity are extremely consistent, and the history is one of always pushing the limits, and there will be more than one of these occasions that will provide minimum parameters to make maximum repayment, with minimum exposure.
And they will be taken without hesitation.
At a better moment than now.
We may not even ever know about it.
But eventually, maybe sooner, we will know about the increased restrictions, resulting in, a change to the deal, from the Russian side. Not because the Russians will go around carrying on about it, but rather, almost as reliable as anything, the other side will whinge and complain and carry-on borderline parody dramas about how oppressed and singled out they are and how unfair it all is… blah, blah, blah… ad nauseum
The Real Question
The Israelis have *publicly* admitted that the Israelis attacked Syria 200 times and destroyed Syrian military assets and Syrian infrastructure, and killed countless Syrians and Syrian allies
The Russians arrived in Syria.
So the real question is and remains,
*What* do the Russians and the Putin faction *gain* by allowing, thus enabling, the Jews and the Americans to bomb Syria with impunity?
Thanks for posting this message.
Sweden is today a tool of the U.S. war machine, as Sweden have a deal with Nato about deploy troops, and defend Sweden in the case of attack, (from the you-know-who.) Sweden took part of the US/Nato attack to smash Libya 2011, and joins the Nato/US forces in Afghanistan.Sweden are now buying the Patriot-missiles, and have really came out of the cloak. Sweden takes an offensive stand against Russia,and is very close to the nuclear 2nd strikebases at the Murman bases, closer to St Petersburg, and the Kaliningrad base. Think this is the Swedish cards, not that close to the chest, to invite the Nato/excercises, with over 100 planes, in High north of Sweden, not that dense populated areas, a year restricted the whole of ” Norrland”, and a British carrier made it to the Bottenviken.
The Minister of defence, visiting both Georgia, Ukraine, and WH, inspecting honor guards. He is of Finnish origin, and by that Russophob. But we go back to 1952, June 13, then a Russian MiG-15 downed a Swedish sig./Int DC-3,with U.S. gears and the crew died, 8 man. The Russians accused the aircraft, for spying of the Soviet air guidance and radar facilities in the Baltic States, to prepare for a US/Nato nuclear strike, against the big cities, in the western Soviet. The USAF and the RAF even made big intrusions that years, for training, but the Russians couldn’t punish them until the U-2 downing, May 1, 1960. That´s the historical situation.
But Sweden today, even they had a sig/int aircraft doing missions outside Syria, this summer from Cyprus. That’s the new Swedish offensive spirit against Russia, but it couldn´t fight the comprehensive forestfires this summer, without help. Sweden is today taking the role of front state against Russia, since the Ukraine crisis, 2015. How come ? Rather good protected of the geography, but close to important Russian targets, as mentioned: Murman/Petersburg/Kaliningrad, and the other day Sweden returned to Gotland with a new tankregiment. But, what had happened if the Israelis had used the Swedish spy plane as cover ? A big risk here for Sweden, but of course that was never planned.
The greatest kindness will not bind the ungrateful. Farmer Vladimir and snake Bibi.
S-300’s for Syria and extensive jamming to cool the hotheads.
I can almost smell the chlorine in Idlib being prepared.
I am not as impressed with this Saker’s analysis as I usually am. One of the things which American students of Cabal false flags and psy-ops have learned is to weigh the first 12 hours of news about an event far more heavily than any later reports after they have all agreed to streamline their propaganda and feed it to their news outlets. If something important is mentioned in the first 12 hours, but then drops off the radar afterwards, this information is likely to be key. And what was that in this case? It was the French missile frigate firing missiles at the same instant that the Israeli fighters approached. Were these missiles sea to land or sea to air?
It is my opinion that the Cabal is desperate to start a shooting war with Russia and this attack was a coordinated ploy between the USA, Israel, and France to start this war. Über Zionist John Bolton is both a psychopath and a psychotic as is Nutsyahu. I find it likely that the Il-20 was shot down by missiles from the French frigate, which would be like shooting fish in a barrel, and that Putin and Shoigu are well aware of this. The hope of the Cabal was that the Russians in outrage would sink the French warship. France being a NATO member (Israel of course is not), would invoke Article 5, and voila – WWIII. However, Putin and Shoigu are too clever by far to fall for this ploy, and rather embraced the Israeli “official story” that the Syrian S-200’s shot the Il-20 down as “friendly fire,.” without letting them off the hook for being ultimately responsible. Putin having no desire to start WWIII over this incident, figured out a way to turn the Russian loss of life to their advantage. People who had embraced the above “conspiracy theory” had also speculated that Putin saw an opportunity to use the Israeli official story to break his agreement with Israel, and to immediately supply the Syrian military with advanced S-300’s, which had been put on hold for years at the request of the Israelis. This morning RT has stated not only will Russia do this, but it is expected to be implemented within 2 weeks and that the Syrian’s had already been trained to use it due to the long delayed order to supply. I also suspect that many Russian specialists near the S-300 control centers will be donning Syrian uniforms. So this is the first of Russia’s reply to the Cabal.
“What I am saying is that Putin, in contrast to the hordes of self-appointed armchair strategists, does have to look at all the possible options before deciding what to do next. Because even if we assume that the Israelis are irresponsible, arrogant, evil and reckless (which they are), this is not a reason for the Russians to emulate them or start a war.”
is the Israeli cause of 15 Russian deaths a kind of Ribik’s Cube case? or can we apply Occam’s Razor and move on?
we know the simple reality already..and there is no headache or vast unending complexity that should cause any leader with all the expertise and informed advice in the nation he can call on, as much pause as this author keeps insisting on, imposing on the situation.
this author keeps beating up on the majority view as product of armchair warriors who do not know what they are talking about. that is unfair and inaccurate and dangerously wrong. the armchairs know what Putin appears not to know..that all the Israelis have done was to be expected and we sat here waiting knowing that sooner or later the Zionist would bite
the Russian military know it too for they have reportedly consistently warned Putin about the natural, ingrained, proved by all experience.. insincerity of the Anglo/Zionists
in this case for the Armchairs nothing like 15 Russian death would have happened were they making and effecting Syrian Policy for the Russians. in this instance the armchairs have it 100% right. and while Putin may be a Russian nationalist of some substance, he is most concerned and careful of, and charmed by the Israeli interest..the Israelis – his “partners”
but the armchairs were never fooled into believing that Putin was anything different. again 100% right
no armchair that I have seen wants Putin to start a war with the Israelis. nothing the armchair crowd advocates advocates aggressive war. but Giving the Syrians S-300 up front was/is not an aggressive and war-like move but a preventive one that has been born out by experience..and one that would have saved 15 Russians live.
bringing the Syrians up to the essential level to stop the Israeli air attacks was/is preventive. it also would have established Russian firmness to the Israeli, dented their confidence in the Russian fifth, establishing firm and unbreakable lines very difficult to cross. there would have been no 200- air attacks on Syria that led to Israeli overconfidence that almost led to war
the Russians are unnecessarily behind the flow in Syria and that has been imposed by the Israelis who have successfully prevailed on Putin to keep Syria weak so they can bomb the hell out of the place. it does not matter how much damage the bombing achieved. the fact is that they were free to do so by establishing undue influence over Putin that gave them the confidence to try to do as they pleased..even with the Russians
that was absolute nonsense and its in everybody’s best interest that has been changed. the price of 15 Russians lives was however too dear a price to pay for simple a lesson that we all knew before. this was no lessons for the armchairs. we knew already
and for the moment the final point I want to make is this:
the Khazar people are white people of the dominant white group in the world. they are all from the Visigoth north that swept down into Europe west and east over the Urals into India, overwhelming the Black population there producing the cast system there. they are all called germanic I believe and I stand corrected wherever i am wrong. but for sure..English, French, German etc are all the same ethnic type
Since I came into expanding knowledge of the racial reality of Europe and the true Khazar story I have never ever seen the Jews as separate and distinct from the white general. and that I see is the reason why the Khazar Jews, a few million people in a population of what a billion whites could even hope to dominate as they have.
the Khazars are white. they are seen as white by all whites and are free to carry out their program as they have. if they were peoples of colour they could not have done as they have.
what this means is all of this is a white issue..hence in all likelihood Putins ridiculous dithering and inability to deal with Israel in Syria why he keeps compromising dangerously relative to his supposed allies in the Muslim world.
but we know this white world don’t we..this dominant white group. they may be quite solid relative to the khazars…Americans the Brits etc also represent a form of white solidarity but they fight each other tooth and nail to the death. they are or have been solid relative to the world of colour. and this is the problem here too. no doubt the white western world program is to remind Putin that he is white and the Muslim world is of colour..and that the whites must maintain solidarity opposed to the world of colour
Putin is in two minds. that is what underpins his policies making impossible deals and so on, letting the empire off the hook time and again. and remember Putins does not flinch or dither when he has to identify his ideological position. he is firm and clear about his capitalist orientation, and his capitalist polices for Russia
but the global confrontation between failed late stage capitalism transcends race. Humanity will save itself only if and when it transitions from capitalism to forms of inclusive social democracies that function in ways consistent totally with the popular interests.
and that is why chances are we are toasts anyway..because the empire cant win and will blow the planet if it does not.
and even if it wins the Brave New World the empire will create will likely just as effectively lead to the elimination humanity from nature. one way or the other under capitalism humanity ends up toasted. only real democracy offers humanity a way out of our corrupt, degraded capitalist dungeon