Over the past 24 hours the Internet, including this blog, have been flooded with opinion on what everybody and anybody would do if they were in Putin’s boots. Proposals range from declaring an no-fly zone over Syria to, I kid you not, send a couple of Russian SSBNs (subs which carry intercontinental ballistic missiles) off the coast of Israel. Furthermore, since Putin has failed, at least so far, to implement any retaliatory measures, the usual chorus of “Putin is a traitor” has been swamping my poor mods with sanguine expressions of disgust about Putin, Russia and yours truly :-)
I do realize that nothing I say would change the minds of this latter group, but for the rest of us in the real world, a short reality check might be helpful. So, here it is a a short bullet-point format.
- Putin is absolutely right to take his time and not announce any immediate measures. Not only is this region of our planet extremely dangerous, he also needs the inputs of all the experts. In Russian we say that “haste is only needed when catching fleas”.
- Furthermore, there *are* questions which need to be investigated. For example, the Russians have declared that the Russian air defenses and the Syrian ones have now been integrated. Most people don’t realize that an S-200 battery does not just fire by itself or by the decision of the crew. At the very least, this decision is taken by a air defense command post which evaluates the threats and allocates targets. There is a high probability that Russians were also involved in the chain of events which lead to the downing of the Il-20.
- Declaring a no-fly zone over all of Syria is simply not in the current Russian capabilities. Like it or not, that is a fact. However, declaring an air exclusion zone over Khmeimim and Tartus is something the Russians could do, especially with the help of the Russian Navy ships near the Syrian coast and the Russian AWACS in the air (putting a pair of MiG-31BMs on combat air patrol over northern Syria would also be an option). The size of such an air exclusion zone over Russian forces would have to be very carefully agreed upon with all the relevant experts and lawyers (yes, Russia does care about international law).
So let’s not speculate about all this and wait for the Kremlin to take some kind of decision. Then we can evaluate it. Right now all these speculations are just a waste of time.
Also, speaking of Syria: has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced?
Finally, and on a lighter note, did you know that the Russians have, apparently, run out of Novichok gas and that they are now using rat poison to kill daughters of military band leading generals? No?
See for yourself :-)
I fully agree that we have to wait. Yes, we are all highly emotional. It would be good if we could come ‘down to earth’ and give Putin some time to check this out.
You are correct. I am wondering what really happened. Officially that Russian plane was mistakenly shot down by Syrians, who were targeting Israeli F-16’s that were hiding behind the Russian plane. Both the Syrian radar operators and their Russian advisors must have known about that Russian reconnaissance plane, making such a mistake improbable, but not impossible. Then we have reports of that French frigate firing a missile. What kind of missile was that ? An AA missile, or a cruise missile ? No additional data has been provided. I wonder why.
NATO ships are still off the Syrian coast. Why ? For what purpose ? Just keeping them at sea must cost millions of dollars. Are they waiting for something ? That false flag chemical “attack” which the US planned, hoping to frame Assad, has been exposed. Putin and Erdogan make a deal on Idlib. After that we have that Israeli attack, with the French giving a helping hand. Was NATO provoking Putin to make a retaliatory attack, either against Israel or against that French frigate ? Time will tell. However, as The Saker has stated, Russians have patience.
Patience is not always a virtue. Stalin paid dearly for his patience with Hitler even though his plans for Lebensraum and expansion eastward were not hidden. Careful Mr. Putin that you not pay dearly for your patience with the American Empire when it’s plan “Project for a New American Century” has been clearly spelled out.
Good point, though to be fair, Stalin knew the non-aggression pact with Hitler was only temporary, and he had intelligence from GRU that Hitler was about to invade. He just didn’t expect Hitler to attack so soon. He was preparing for war from the date that pact was signed, it was meant to buy some time.
The truth seems to be that the Bolshevicks were about to attack and left Germany no choice but to attack first.
Also, it was not Hitler who made the decision but his generals because he was very will at that time.
As for what t make of this typical attack by so called “Israel”, I doubt anything will be done – those nasty people who hate all the rest of mankind, have two hundred or more nuclear bombs and they are stupid enough to use them.
All the same, I do not enjoy seeing Putin looking weak and silly. Please God he has finally realized what they are like and will bide his time but he WILL deal with them when it becomes possible. And then he may be ruthless – I HOPE!
Trump was about to have documents published about the election and the accusation that Russia and Putin were involved. T. May and the Brits are terrified and have asked him not to publish them.
Well – Trump has won out over the Rothschilds it seems – but he has someother kinds of Jews to dealwith – such as his daughter and her creepy husband – who are members of the Lubavitcher who are really sinister.
Patience is a virtue. People like you do not see the benefit of solid facts in your holster before you fire. This is particularly the case when your enemy’s primary objective is to push you to make a rash move.
Have you Stan, or any of you here thought about the French ship in the same area?
The Israelis are trying to provoke a major US intervention. This latest action was an immediate response to the Turkey/Russia Idlib agreement, which ends the war without another major intervention from the US.
So this Israeli attack, which was clearly a sly plot of some kind, was either to:
give Syria another little slap. How does that bring them closer to their goal of US intervention?
give the Russians another little slap. How does that bring them closer to their goal of US intervention?
draw Syrian fire onto a French Frigate = war.
There is even a possibility that the Russian plane intercepted the missile / took the hit to prevent the French Frigate from becoming a target.
Facts like that take patience to establish and they are like a hammer.
Everything you’ve pointed out is to be taken into consideration of course proper gander. But it is a fact that high ranking American officials, whether senators or in the intel community have been openlenly and unapologetically advocating bleeding Russia. Make more Russian military go back home in body bags.
Yet despite such a totally unacceptable situation, President Putin keeps referring to them as his «partners ». This I find to be either an illusionary attitude or intentional appeasement.
As far as the French frigate, I don’t think they are capable of any provocation against Russia without explicit prior permission from the US.
when a hot headed gun slinger throws a gun at your feet and challenges you to pick it up, what do you do? Make your intentions clear to fight by bending down to it, and you will be dead before you stand up. The gun slinger claims self defense.
That’s all there is to this. Russia is better off standing with its hands and weapons in its pockets, leaving the provocations alone while slowly standing more weight on the throat of the gun slingers dog.
What you are advocating is a facsimile of the wrong headed intervention by Russia in Afghanistan, a show of might against the US funded Mujahadeen. It was a disaster and major contributor to the fall of Russia. One US objective in Syria is very similar to the Afghan ploy. Thankfully the Russians have learnt.
Yes Saker as you say let’s wait and see what the Russian response will be.
Over the years – this always is the knee jerk reaction of the armchair warriors and anti-Putin/Russia trolls – whenever Russia is attacked in Syria or elsewhere. Some still don’t learn that Russia is slow to saddle and quick to ride. The MOD statements have already set down who is to blame and a reply to this disgusting provocation will be answered in their own way and in their own time. Putin also agreed with the MOD statements and hinted himself to watch this space.
“Also, speaking of Syria: has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced?”
This was a very important point, I also noted. I also read that the II-20 plane was returning from reconnaissance over Idlib and was just coming into land…….take from that what you will…..(and the revelation about MH17 in the morning)
Hi Veritas. So many contradictions over this whole Idlib-Il-20 affair. I heard the plane was 20 miles off coast over the Mediterranean, in which case, the SAA could not have shot it down. So itt was probably shot down by the French. Even Fort Russ, claims that the French likely did it, and that this fake story of the SAA having shot it down accidentally is deliberate Russian (yes Russian) disinformation. If the Russians are lying, as FRN suggests, and the media is now more censored than ever before, how can we begin to guess the truth?
I heard the plane was 20 miles off coast over the Mediterranean, in which case, the SAA could not have shot it down.
What do you imagine the range of an S-200 anti-aircraft missile is? How many would be needed, if their operational range was less than 20 miles?
If Russia is lying about the attack, it can only be in order to manage the escalation. Once Russia acknowledges the true fact, the only remaing options are to retaliate or sue for peace. Russia is waiting for the right moment. Like s surfer waiting for a wave.
This occurred to me as well. Russia may be lying about the incident to prevent a major escalation, which is exactly what the Israelis want. I’m dubious as to the French ship shooting the IL-20 down though. It seems far more likely that the Israelis shot it down in that area in the hopes the French would be blamed for it. Then Russia would have no choice but to retaliate or sue for peace, as you say. To do retaliate against a French ship, especially if the French maintained innocence, would be the start of another World War and maybe a nuclear war. in any case, it would be impossible to manage after that.
Good to avoid speculation.
Game “tit for tat” is zero sum game…avoid direct combat. Empire loses strength as Heartland self-coordinates…outcome natural. Time, like Caravan, moves past barking dogs…
Not a speculation, questions to quietly consider – what did French shoot?
Why OTAN ships all built-up?
Who needs trouble between France and Russ?
Silently considering these questions some may come to see Putin’s story as very smart. zion get blame, too. Neat!
methinks maybe did not shot, maybe israel shot from near the frigate to make them a target and get nato in?
May I remind you Saker that this incident was not just a provocation. It is a promise or threat being honored. For months we have we have been hearing high ranking American officials openly advocating that their goal in Syria was to make as many as possible Russian military return home in body bags. From Senators to directors of intelligence have unabashedly and unapologetically said so openly on American TVs. And they are doing it whenever possible.
So the question for Mr. Putin is whether he’s gonna let them continue with impunity. I don’t know how old most commentators on this site are, but for those who remember the denouement of the Vietnam war you will remember that the only war the US ever lost was when the American people had enough of hundreds of their soldiers returning home every week in body bags.
Good point. I am sure that the Russian military have also considered this possibility – of US/NATO wanting to send as many Russians as possible back home in body bags -, perhaps not exactly thinking that their (US/NATO) goal was to defeat Russia this way. Russians have already proved that they are prepared to die for their homeland. But, certainly, it is very tragic for the nation, and makes Mr Putin’s team struggle to save Russia from the western piracy a bit more difficult…
“Also, speaking of Syria: has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced?”
Yes, Saker, I noticed that and I also noticed that Iraq told the United Neo-Morons of America to eat shit, fuck off and die as a result of what military genius, John Helmer would describe as “STRATEGIC VICTORY” for the AZ Empire.
From an article by Alastair Crooke
“This latter movement had a major victory in recent days. Elijah Magnier, the veteran Middle East journalist, sums it up succinctly:
“The US favourite candidate for the [Iraqi] prime ministership, Haidar Abadi, lost his last chance to renew his mandate for a second term when riots caused arson around the southern city of Basra and burned down the walls of the Iranian consulate in the city. While the inhabitants demonstrated for their justified demands (fresh water, electricity, job opportunities and infrastructure), sponsored groups with different agendas mixed with the crowds and managed to burn down offices, ambulances, a government building and school associated with al-Hashd al-Shaabi and other anti-US political groups. This mob behaviour forced Sayyed Moqtada al-Sadr, leader of 54 MPs, to drop his political partner Abadi and to put an end to [the latter’s] political carrier. Moqtada sought to distance himself from the events in Basra in order to let the blame fall on Abadi alone. He has joined the side of the winning horse, that of Iran ”
Frankly, Saker, you’re sounding more and more like a Russian/Putin apologetic.
Saying that “Proposals range from declaring an no-fly zone over Syria to, I kid you not, send a couple of Russian SSBNs (subs which carry intercontinental ballistic missiles) off the coast of Israel. ” is a strawman argument and I had come to expect better from this site.
Not taking immediate or perhaps any action might be justified since it wss a provocation. But the fact that Putin downplayed what happened and went into damagecontrol-mode on behalf of the Israelis, is telling.
Compare with the shootdown with the Turks, he didnt take direct (military)action either, but he called it wat it was: a backstabbing and there was a reckoning for Turkey.
With this crisis we see Putin is no more able to put Russian national interest (or lives for that matter) before the Zionist one than Trump or LBJ.
You could not figure out that some commenters proposed that Russia should send SSBN,s to the coast of Israel, is telling! The Saker did not propose that.
I agree the big bad neo-morons will huff & puff and try to blow Putin,s Syrian house down unless he stops killing Israel,s terrorists. So, why stop.
Thank you for responding.
Please reread my second paragraph.
You misread it, I think.
remember the Tu 20 was used a RADAR shield for the 4 Israeli F-16. These are obviously aircraft and operate from an Israeli military base.The Russians know the geographical coordinates of these bases to the accuracy of a few meters. The Russian SSBM can stay in the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea Flotilla can repeat their Deir ez Zoor feat again testing the Iron Dome an Davids Sling in the process.
This potential threat will cause the Israeli military planers some sleepless nights.
I have read that the fire works capabilities of Hezbollah have somewhat improved in recent years. The possible components of a “no fly zone” over Israel and western Syria. Not that it will happen but making the protection racket in Washington foam at their Snouts is worth something too. IMHO
All Governments Lie… (I F Stone)
How does anybody know who shot down Il20?
Think about it…
Avoiding direct conflict may not satisfy the emotions, but Time favors Russ Heartland, does it not?
What did French shoot at?
“apology” is a two-sided term…depending on Logos…Logic, Logos is the logic behind an argument… Would anyone wish to use a defense other than Logic? If Saker is apologetic…is this not good?
My thoughts exactly. Putin’s restraint is considered a sign of weakness by the Anglo-Zionists. Every time he turns his back on an attack by the Anglo-Zionists, they increase the number and frequency of their attacks.
This is exactly where the problem is and many do not want to see/accept. It cannot last forever. Judo, Sun Tzu, 15D chess, revenge is the best served cold…do not work with brute force coming from Washington and Tel Aviv. Brute force is the only thing they understand and respect. Not reacting more decisively to these provocation just give them more ammunition. When Russia decide to finally react it might be too late for all of us.
Actually, Judo works extremely well against a careless, brute-force attacker. That is almost the perfect situation for a judo expert.
Street fighter/bruiser wins every time. How many Judo fighters you see in UFC?
Tactically speaking you are right. Judo is a rule based physical contest expressed in a cultural idiom. It is not MMA.
Its Putin’s ability to apply the strategic logic of victorious judo practice (yield to overcome) to the circumstances at hand that will matter most to us all.
You may have a point. Nevertheless, it might be interesting to look at the philosophy behind a martial art.
I’m a judoka myself, and in judo you do something that in no martial art known to me is practiced. In judo you go *towards* your opponent, while in other arts you move along. This is somewhat unnatural, it takes years to master this sport, but your opponent doesn’t expect this and it is the best way to throw him.
Btw, I have combined this with jiu jitsu. That is a deadly combination, while in jiu jitsu everything is allowed that in judo is absolutely forbidden.
What? brazilian jujitsu is nothing more than old school judo newaza and those guys won a lot a of UFC. Try to inform yourself better.
I agree with you, Kfeto. My main concern, though, is more about Putin’s agreement with Erdogan than about the downing of the Russian plane, which has eclipsed the larger issue. Given my meager knowledge, it seems Putin has completely undermined Assad’s liberation offensive in Idlib. And I do mean “liberation,” as I understand the peaceful civilians there are tyrannized by terrorist rule. Putin has of course avoided direct conflict with the West, as Saker notes, but at what cost to Syria, and indirectly, to Russia? The agreement is a big win for Turkey, the West, Al Qaeda and Israel. With a triumph like that, it goes without saying that the West has fewer pretexts for confronting Syria. Some people even claim a secret part of the Putin-Erdogan deal is that no chemical-weapons false flag attacks are to occur in Idlib. But as AJSB on Twitter says, the agreement (really a surrender) has given Israel carte blanche to conduct more strikes on Syria, and this is happening.
Thus I consider Putin a traitor to Syria, just as he was a traitor to Donbass, an assessment about which I’ve written several commentaries. It is hard not to be disappointed in Putin, when he represented hope for a total victory in Syria, and for reason in the world. Now it almost looks like there is no hope. The Western globalist elite is a few moves from mate. And censorship has nearly blocked out the news. Denying the fix we’re in won’t make it go away. We need answers we can believe in.
Lets not forget China has people (Special Forces, Logistics people, medics etc) on the ground in Syria. Some brigades of the special forces are embedded with the Syrian Arab Armies Tiger Division and 4th Armored Division. The spearheads of most campaigns.
China has major plans foe the Levant, as far as connectivity with the OBR Silk Roads. They already have plans to rebuild Syria.
With cheap Chinese weapons, and a large volume of such, the Arabs, Assyrians of Syria will achieve their ultimate victory. The same applies to Iraq, where the U.S. , British and French position looks more and more precarious.
By 2030, the U.S., Britain and France will have been expelled from the MENA/Central Asian regions, only to have China fill the vacuum. Russia or not, China is coming, its rising fast.
How long will it take before the people of the middle east get tired of their new Chinese masters…sorry ‘friends’, but find them harder to get rid of than the old bosses?
I agree with you 100% that there is no hope for the Western globalist elite. That’s because they’re incompetent, psychopathic, loser scum who are only a few bricks short of a load and their ponzi scam is only a few moves from mate.
I wouldn’t say that at all. They are still in positions of power with enormous economic and military sources. They are in decline but not that far down the road. Russia won’t act strongly because the US/NATO/Israel/Saudi alliance is waaaaay more powerful and still very united in the Imperial project. Only a very tight China-Russia-Iran alliance would cause the Empire to hesitate to play their current game of continual micro-aggressions against Russia/Syria/Iran. Putin will not respond because he does not have as close an alliance with the Chinese as the US has with their “allies (vassals).” Washington can no longer dictate terms in world affairs but is more influential than Russia/China/Iran and any other minor players.
China and Russia have a very close partnership, close to a de-facto alliance, although it’s not a de-jure one.
By being not official, this partnership allows both China and Russia to go both defensive and offensive flexibly
against the west.
Since it is not a formal/declared “alliance”, it is able to influence western allies doing more for their own interests, betraying western regimes’ interest.
It also put less burden on western allies since there is no need for them to sever the relationship with western regimes.
It is also much more attractive for non-aligned countries since they are not required to pick sides.
If you think the Idlib deal was a win for the Empire, why do you think they launched the provocation and punished Putin for it?
Hello Kfeto. I suspect the more the globalist elite gets, the more it wants, and the more it thinks it can get away with. Concessions only seem to make the “Empire”, as you call it, more aggressive, which is why I consider Putin’s strategy weak. But frankly, I can hardly defend my position. I’ve been glancing over commentaries and news articles all day, only to find endless contradictions. For example, this well-written editorial, unlike certain other sources, completely disagrees with me about the West benefiting from the Putin-Erdogan deal:
I’d like to see an analysis by someone who knows what’s going on. But maybe nobody does. Maybe the Syria crisis is just too complex, and too many factors are hidden. Or maybe censorship is preventing us really getting the truth. Syrian affairs used to make more sense to me, back in the days when Twitter was an open medium.
You need to do your homework before posting comments. Erdogan had nothing to do with with the shooting of that Russian SU-24. This was done behind his back, with pro-US elements in Turkey hoping to create a rift between Russia and Turkey. It was a provocation. The pilot of that Turkish F-16 was a Turk of Albanian origin, who was subsequently placed under arrest. When the US instigated that coup d’etat against Erdogan, it was the Russians who both warned him and saved his life, as his plane was targeted by Turkish F-16’s flown by conspirators, who backed off, having Russian Sukhois behind them and Russian missiles in Syria pointing at them.
The shooting of that Russian reconnaissance plane in Syria was another provocation, Israel hoping to provoke Putin to retaliate and starting a mass war in Syria, bearing in mind that NATO brought additional ships to the Syrian coast. It did not work, as Putin stayed cool. However, Russian and Syrian AA missile systems have now become integrated. When it comes to this latest provocation, it could have been greater than it appeared. Commentators have pointed to that French frigate firing a missile. What kind of missile was that ? An AA missile, or a cruise missile ? Did the French shoot that Russian plane down ? If so, then we were facing a very real threat of wider war, because had the Russians retaliated, then NATO would have had an excuse to attack Syria, now that it’s little false flag plan has been exposed, another chemical “attack” by Assad, as if Assad was foolish enough to do such a thing.
The point is that Putin does not fall for provocations. He has proved it again.
“You need to do your homework before posting comments. Erdogan had nothing to do with with the shooting of that Russian SU-24”
“When the US instigated that coup d’etat against Erdogan, it was the Russians who both warned him and saved his life, as his plane was targeted by Turkish F-16’s flown by conspirators, who backed off, having Russian Sukhois behind them and Russian missiles in Syria pointing at them.”
how do you know that? you have any proof?
What I have written is common knowledge, reported by a number of sources. I am not a lawyer in a courtroom who needs to provide proof.
Mike is being respectful, polite. It would be nice to have some references. But I do remember the reports of Russian help for Erdogan during the coup attempt. Reports also included info on the Gulenist and related channels involved. It does not seem to me that it is common knowledge about the Sukhoi tailing aircraft. Reports I remember did not mention them.
The more respectful the communications here, the better.
What B.F. says in his reply was very widely reported and well known. I’d doubt CNN reported that version, but pretty much every independent outlet in the world did IIRC.
IIRC, even western outlets did report that participants in the coup attempt used F-16s to attack the Turkish parliment building. Thus the fact that Turkish F-16 pilots were involved seems rather well known.
If you want links, a quick non-google search turned up a mainstream American source and an Israeli source that backs this information. I normally wouldn’t read either one, but I visited these sites just for you.
“a quick non-google search”
Very interesting. Which search engine do you use? I would like to try this too!
Try this one:
I never use google!
Thank you! I have used Startpage and Duckduckgo to avoid being tracked, however I believe their search results are still based on Google.
Well, Josif Stalin also did not fall into Hitler’s provocations on the new borders with Reich.
Grouping divisions, etc.
However, he soon realised that the war is a serious provocation having Wehrmacht 40 km from Moscow.
Somehow the French frigate was not aware that its missile could mean a war btw. NATO and Russia, but vice-versa Kremlin should be afraid of it even when retaliating or in defence?!
The dead of a Russian soldiers by thousands never have ment much to their leaders, so you are right, +/- another 15 body-sacks is peanuts….
Did I get you right? Even the Kremlin jester Zhirinovskyi has enough of Putin’s appeasment already (and what more, he is a jew himself).
Great comment, B.F.. I agree that the downing of the Russian military plane was an ishreali provocation. Silly. They should have known that Mr Putin would not make a mistake. Actually, Mr Putin’s comment – saying that the downing of the aircraft was circumstancial -, while obviously aware that it was a provocation, made them feel indeed very stupid………. This has nothing to do with being ‘pro-isreali’ or weak. It was a brilliant response, actually, full of meanings.
I concur. Israel is a rogue state, and this was a provocation.
A firm response is required. The world is watching. Anything short of a firm response would negate Vostok 2018.
Does Putin stand with, and behind his own Minister of Defense, who layed the blame firmly on Israel.
Russia needs to secure Syrian and Lebanese airspace to Israeli provocations. AS a starting point. And Russia should make a lot of noise at the U.N., giving them a headache there, as well as points against the U.S..
Israeli arrogance should not be let go by superpower Russia.
Super powers do not bow to Zionist influence.
I agree Kfeto. It’s not as if this was a first time or even an isolated event. The Israelis have been bombing Syria now for ages with the only opposition being Syrian antiquated Soviet AA systems. They do this by firing their missiles from Lebanese air-space or from the Mediterranean off the coast of Syria. ALL of it is illegal and breaks international law, which is nothing but an inconvenient fact for the Israelis and their poodle/masters, the Americans. Meaning no disrespect, the shooting down of the Russian plane is nothing new and is the result of continuing Israeli actions against Syria. If Russia does not intend to take any actions at all after this then for god’s sake get out of Syria and save the lives of those who at present are just sitting ducks.
Surely… surely… it is time to at least WARN the Israelis that any future attacks on Syrian territory will be regarded as an attack on Russia. A warning costs nothing to issue – then perhaps we might see just how good these S300 and S400s really are.
I have my doubts.
Kfeto, I share your emotions, totally. And the photo chosen by Saker is an ugly sign. We came to the point of definite choice: Russia or the Zionists. Shooting down a couple of Israeli planes is the minimal reaction by Russia. They just finished the greatest military excercise since 1981. If necesary, let Shoigu make decission, not Putin.
Can anyone explain why four Israeli F-16s were able to maintain a heavy bombardment of Latakia for 90 minutes? I don’t suppose an F-16 could carry more than one, or at most two cruise missiles.
There is much that doesn’t add up in this story – a story that keeps changing, as in there was no one minute warning. How about the IFF code on the IL-20 that makes a friendly missile lock impossible?
To answer your question, if the 90 minutes itself is correct, then the French frigate and other British aircraft from Cyprus may have joined in. Cruise missiles could theoretically have even come from the other end of the Mediterranean or any land within 1000 kms or so.
I doubt what we are reading is anywhere near the complete story.
Lock of the launcher should had been impossible
Re-locking of an old stupid S-200 missile after it left launcher – can happen. It already happened in Ukraine 2001
I guess there where more cruise missles from the French and maybe other ships involved
the Russians know it but we can only speculate
Can well armed F16s even stay in the air for 90 minutes?
I am no expert -someone else may know more nut the F-16 has an endurance of about 2 hrs, unsure in what configuration, but these F-16s were not getting any fuel economy benefit from altitude as they were allegedly below radar. Latakia at about 400 km straight lne and with a combat radius of 550km in favourable conditions I would guess they’d have needed extra drop tanks or in-flight refueling. This assumes they were not topping up in Cyprus. Unless they had to loiter for the IL-20, 90 minutes at Latakia sounds unreasonably long.
Does Israel have aerial refueling tankers, or do they get Big Uncle Sam to do it for them, like their Islamo-nazi friends Saudi Wahabia?
wait, let me answer my own question:
They were using guided gliding bombs
How does F16 flight sneak up unseen and unreported on radar aircraft Il20, designed and operated to see everything?
It was landing and had descended to 6,000 feet on approach to Khemenim.
Maybe the landing approach thesis works – experts in Russ aviation would know if Russ equivalent to(US/UK) AN/APS-13 aft approach radar, used since 1942 in a series of versions, was/is fitted to Il20 in question.
Seems that anybody smart enough to build radar would fit tailradar in combat zone, and leave it on. Note actual radar may have been superseded by an infra red detector…a question for experts. Has been long time since 1942, technical methods improve. And the search radars?
Ok, pilot, engineer, copilot are doing approach and busy…and everybody else just being inattentive? F 16 were not tracked the entire time? Again, maybe. Radar works at 6000 feet and horizon still 152 km away… F16 can’t sneak up unseen…fast but not that fast…
I always maintain situational awareness in war zones, helps to live longer.
software of S200 can not target friendlies, system was is integrated.
“Also, speaking of Syria: has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced?”
Exactly. The zionazis want Syria. They are activating all their options and working overtime to keep their proxies employed against Syria. If the zionazis cant take Syria, it means they don’t get to have Lebanon either. It also means their attempt to wreck Iran and reduce it to a failed state is a non starter.
Syria is the keystone. The geography is a primary target for the destruction of ME. It has cultural and economic ties that bind most of the region. Destroying Syria is primary for US Hegemony and Israeli dominance.
But Turkey, Iran, Iraq and now Russia stand in the way. With Hezbollah, Lebanon is joined to the alliance against the US-Israeli aggression. And strategically, Jordan will facilitate what it can to stabilize the region.
This alienation of Putin and the Russian military and people by Israel, the US, UK and France will long be remembered across the Motherland. Syria now more than ever is a land of sacrificed sons of Russia. The stakes are now eternal.
This is exactly the point. People, commentators, should never forget that about half of Israel’s Jewish population are Russians (or used to be, I suspect dual citizens). These people have extended families in Russia. Putin knows what he is doing. He can not alienate people at home.
The two preceding comments seem to be mutually exclusive, i .e., in direct contradiction:
1. “This alienation of Putin and the Russian military and people by Israel,”
2. “This is exactly the point. People, commentators, should never forget that about half of Israel’s Jewish population are Russians (or used to be, I suspect dual citizens). These people have extended families in Russia. Putin knows what he is doing. He can not alienate people at home.”
But, “the point” in (1) seems, actually, to be the exact opposite.
So, has the incident alienated Russians from Israel? Or, can Russia not “afford” to be alienated from Israel because there are too many Russian Israelis?
Or is it the other way around? That Russian Israelis will not stand for their government’s treatment of Russia? Somehow I suspect that Russian/ex-Soviet Israelis won’t give a flying eff about their govt’s treatment of Russia, and the same goes for their relatives inside Russia. They hated the USSR and couldn’t wait to get away. Why does Putin have to cater to the views of these emigres to Israel, Russian Israelis, or to their families back in Russia? How do the latter differ from Zionists in the USA who have dual loyaties?
BTW, it is my understanding that the USA paid for the resettlement of Soviet Jews in Israel in the eighties, not the USSR .
Kat, I agree with you saying that Russian-Israelis do not give a damn ….
But I still think that Putin has to pussy foot around their extended families, although not all off them would take an offense if he reacted to the little fart’s provocations. We have to remember that we are talking about people who consider themselves “special”, who should be allowed to do anything to anyone.
It doesn’t mean that Putin has to dismiss the incident as an accident. There was nothing accidental about Israel’s actions and the subsequent deaths of those airmen.
“It doesn’t mean that Putin has to dismiss the incident as an accident.”
Bless you Flopot, you nailed it.
Something is telling me that both of you guys are sitting across one desk and all you do is stir the $hit and call for blood.
Putin rightfully will not give you the opportunity. Go back to your computer games.
Which is why the provocations won’t stop. Honestly, I don’t see how Putin can think he can shrug them off and continue with the job at hand in Syria. He will try but Zion will continue to double-down.
I believe the West has seen enough of their schemes foiled by Putin and his playing the long game. The strategy now is to take the long game from him. The advantage in this goes to the West as they can be as provocative as they want while Russia has to be careful not to be seen as an aggressor lest it wreck Nord Stream, Turk Stream and the thaw in relations with Germany.
Putin has sounded conciliatory, maybe even weak in some eyes. He did, however, note that Russia’s attitude towards this incident is expressed in the MoD statement, which is noticeably less conciliatory.
Perhaps that, along with some concrete actions (I favor a limited no-fly zone), will deter outside interference while the essential work at Idlib can continue. We can only hope.
The most important option in my opinion is the modernization of the Syrian PVO (protivovozdushnaya oborona Anti-air defence).
Putin tested Bibi and found him wanting.
Putin tested the IDF and found them wanting.
Putin tested the Mossad and found them wanting.
Thus, Putin is freed from Israeli contracts (agreements, arrangements, handshakes, mutualities).
Israel shot its wad.
Putin now can justifiably supply S-300s, S-400s and eventually S-500s to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey, Iraq or Iran and Egypt if he so chooses now or in the future.
The Bandits in the air are IDF jets. Russia will ground them, make them useless.
He will close some airspace to protect the Russian bases.
And the lunatic Likud government can ask or beg or threaten but it can do nothing now to reverse what the Russian Federation decides in Syria.
Israel lost big. It lost regionally and morally and professionally. Their violation of deconfliction is a treachery that no military will forget for a hundred years.
So, Patient Putin and Sagacious Shoigu will decide how to exploit this opportunity in the region and how and when to avenge the deaths and loss of the plane.
We armchair warriors have no idea what best to do. Those two men are brilliant and will decide for us.
Putin just tricked Erdogan to do his bidding in Idlib. And more is coming that the Sultan of Ankara doesn’t even know he will have to deliver. But hundreds of Syrian soldiers lives have been saved by the strategy. And the US plan to bomb Damascus and kill Assad is blocked.
Where naysayers see weakness, Putin and Russia see strength. And, though there are inevitable losses and casualties, the progression for Syria and the region is positive and heading Eastward.
On the ground, the people of Syria know the Russians are there to help them rise to their feet and rebuild their nation and society.
Having Israel turn against the Russians is a certain indicator that Syria is in good hands with Russia based there for the next half-century.
The eternal waters of Latakia will wash the Syrian shore with the spirit of Russia’s heroes slain by the perfidy of the Israelis.
I believe the most likely course of events is for a few Israeli pilots to quietly suffer some ‘accidents’ that seriously affect their ability to stay on the right side of the daisies.
If I recall right, it took a while, but all the terrorists who shot the pilot of the SU-24 as he descended were eliminated.
Jack, pilots are pawns, even the pilots of the enemies of humanity.
But the entire decision chain, either known and verified, or estimated as closely as possible.
Just a start.
This was murder!
And justice will be dealt with respectful of the graveness of this sick psychopathic crime.
pilots are pawns, even the pilots of the enemies of humanity.
sure, they were just following orders; that’s what the defendants said at the Nuremburg Trial.
strangely, most people didn’t buy it.
I wish there were a “like” system here – Larchmonter445, that is one of the best posts on this thread. It’s VERY easy for those of us sitting comfortably at our computers to have strong opinions on what we think is going on but we may be in possession of a very limited picture and do not have to live with any consequences of our opinions. As Taleb would say we have “no skin in the game” (and only part of the story).
One possible interpretation of recent events is that the Israeli’s were working with France, and the French ship shot down the Russian plane. The expectation was that Russia would fire back at the French and that this attack on a NATO member would be the catalyst for a hot war between the AZs/NATO and Russia/Syria/Iran. By not taking the bait, Putin may have just spared us WW3 (for now). Putin may publicly be appearing weak, but he now has the legitimacy to play his next move on his terms.
Yes, yes, yes, yes… isreal lost big, indeed! Mr Putin’s negotiations with Mr Erdogan were the final nail in the coffin of the AZ empire. No war was needed, no deaths! By doing so, and being patient, Mr Putin gave the enemy the chance to make a mistake – and they did!
Well done, Mr Putin! Well done, Russia! Time to grab the prize, now, for the benefit of the whole world!
The world is indeed changing, and fast! I am glad to be alive at this time in history.
I believe today is the anniversary of the battle of Armageddon; in which case, today is a day of thankfulness for those who wish to live their lives in peace, and not perish at war. Mayhaps, as our Saker posits indirectly above, the loss of this aircraft and crew is a sign of a greater victory, albeit unsatisfying to the “worldly wise”.
“Also, speaking of Syria: has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria”
I have to wonder when have the US or Israel ever needed “justification” for attacking countries.
Given then that there is never any justification for
condolences to the families of the martyrs who save us in missions of risk to get rid of suffering with their own lives. Eternal glory
Yes, as I have already written, that Israeli attack came after Putin and Erdogan made a deal regarding Idlib. After that Israel attacks, backed by that French frigate. I wonder what kind of missile the frigate fired, an AA missile, or a cruise missile. Some are even speculating that the French shot that Russian plane down, hoping to provoke Russia into retaliation, which would not surprise me in the least, bearing in mind Macron is a Rothschilds banker.
What ever really happened, I think Putin is playing it cool. Yet again he has proven that he does not fall for provocations. And yes, The Saker is right. Patience is a Russian virtue.
Putin’s forfeit’s – from strategic mistake to strategic defeat in 24 hours
No, that cannot be accepted. What strategic defeat ? Did you want him to fall for this Israeli-NATO provocation and order retaliation, starting a wider war ? By the way, Russian and Syrian AA systems have no become integrated.
He’s the most brilliant Airchair General ever because the sun shines from his arse!
Anyone in favour of comments with links to John Helmer articles getting deleted by the mods?
I hate that idiot biggly!
Anyone in favour of comments … getting deleted by the mods?
Maybe you should apply for a job at Twitter or Faceborg; it seems that you might have a promising career ahead of you in the Ministry of Truth.
Provocation only works when there is an immediate ill considered reaction. I suspect there is a reason, though I haven’t a clue what that might be, for waiting.
IF the Israelis are as smart as alleged, waiting may be the best way to make them worry. On the other hand, hubris is what makes Israel (and the US they command) behave the way they do. Biggest mistake ever was allowing the zionists to recreate a fascist state in the first place. Should have wiped them out in 1947/8.
Well, the zionist media was full of apologies the next day. Why? Because they recognised that they lost, that Russia had taken the decision they dreaded: NOT to retaliate (which would have made Russia play in their hands).
There are two possibilites here for the AZ reckless decision to down the Russian military plane:
1) the Az are not as smart as alleged; and
2) they did what they did because they had already lost the war – it was a final, desperate act.
As Chris k (above) said above: maybe “…the loss of this aircraft and crew is a sign of a greater victory…” Yes, I think that it is exactly that: Russia won!
I guess that the dismay that most feel for what has happened and the waiting and immagination for what Russia should do stems from thinking that Russia is that alternative to the Global Power that it is not. The new liberal Russia isn’t USSR nor Tsarist Russia and is fully inside this global scheme that is supported also by liberal westernized Russia that is simply arguing with what Russia call partners. So I think it is absolutely unrealistic to wait for some response or option simply because it would go against Russian foreign policy. And what happened is simply considered a collateral damage of that policy to be forget quickly.
Now here is something. First, just look at that picture. And then go read the article on rt
If anything is a signal, I think this can be counted as not a coincidence.
” . . has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced? ”
Forgive me, but what recent Turkish-Russian agreement — that excludes US strikes — did I miss?
What about the IFF code on board the IL-20 making an S-200 lock impossible?
nothing: the missile itself can not have IFF units
after the missile – very old and stupid – was locked it can confuse targets and change the aim
that is exactly what happened with Ukrainian S-200 missile in 2001 which hit Tu-154 airliner instead of its designated target
Only a Russian sense of humour could come out with “haste is only needed when catching fleas”! Vladimir Putin plays the long-game.
I also enjoyed that very much ! Thanks Saker !
Me too. It’s an aphorism we could all do with remembering – especially those drivers hooting and screaming to try and save 2 seconds off a journey !! :-)
It reminded me of a Chinese aphorism along similar lines, and equally applicable to this situation I think :
“Only when a mosquito lands on your genitals will you learn not to instantly respond to every problem with violence” . :-)
Excellent saying. Particularly true to parts of the world, where one of my friends said: “Mosquito is a provincial bird symbol of Manitoba (Canada)”.
Otherwise, yes the result of such response would be quite painful.
Returning to serious matter, there is more noise about “France did it and not Syria”. How can you instantly respond when the list of suspects is growing?
With all of the electronic equipment on board the IL-20 why were the f-15’s not detected ?
The information processed on board is immediately available to command on ground.
They would have known the f-15’s were in the vicinity.
What use is all of the Russian electronic equipment if the enemy has to send morse code to let them know they are here ?
Many are saying it’s because the Il20 was on a landing approach that it was vulnerable, the implication being that the mission was at its end and attention was on landing. However, this plane was out to sea and not on a final approach. IIRC, the wreckage was found 27km offshore.
This leaves me to doubt the official line that it was an accidental shoot down by the Syrians. It doesn’t ‘smell right’, but I also doubt we will ever know if it wasn’t the Syrians. Actions speak louder than words, so we’ll have to be content with that.
BTW, the Israeli planes were f-16s, not f-15s.
I am beginning to wonder who really shot that plane down, bearing in mind that it was both on Russian and Syrian radar. What kind of missile did that French frigate fire ?
Why is President Putin afraid to confront Israel with lethal force when Israel continues to commit the capital crimes of murder against his people? The lives of Russian military personnel in Syria are being sacrificed for political capital; there is no other way to understand it. It is a detriment to the psyche of a combat army, navy and air force no matter what excuse is put forth that postures with polite explanation. Everyone including our Saker knows another incident like the IL-20 will happen again and again and again.
If the Commander-In-Chief of the Russian Armed Forces fails to give the order to return fire, what good is he with respect to defending Russia? Russia is in Syria by treaty and by invitation from the legitimate Syrian government. It appears Putin has forgotten why he is there, which is to first rid the nation of terrorists and secure the future economic potential for Russia as well. Anyone who prevents that from happening is a conspirator with the terrorists. The role of U.S.-NATO and Israel is that of a provocateur to prevent the restoration of the Syrian nation.
The fear the U.S-NATO. will escalate is moot. They will lose many, many naval and airborne assets because the Russian military will have their president supporting them completely without reservation to stave off the western hegemon. Diplomacy must take a back seat at this time otherwise there will be much discord in the military ranks.
What do you think Anna Shapiro’s real hair colour is ? “Lingerie model” is a soubriquet for an ancient profession I tend to think. As for the events of 17 September I assume the Krivak class frigate 868 on patrol near the Auvergne had a good register on what was fired ?
No doubt the Israelis had ECM aircraft aloft spoofing IFF signals…..and what were the two RAF (Tornadoes?) from Akrotiri doing above the Israeli F16s ?
1.3 million Russians in Israel might not be too happy with Netanyahoo
1.3 million Russians in Israel, are Russian jews, and are likely identify primarily as jewish.
Their aims and concerns, are jewish ones. Their likely only concerns regarding Russia, are that Russia does not obstruct Israeli ambitions, and that the network of jewish influence in Russia does not diminish, but thrives. Their interest is for Russia to be another of Israel’s golems, like the USA is.
I moot that true Russian interests, conflict with their own, and they will absolutely follow their own. Same as AIPAC in the USA, and equivalents everywhere else.
Their ancestral home country might be Russia, but I moot there is nothing Russian about them.
All my humble opinion. I stand to be corrected. Russia does not have a fifth column in Israel, it is the other way round.
That has been my experience as well. Russian Jews, for the most part, have felt alienated enough from the Russian culture to make a conscious decision to emigrate. Some have complained of terrible anti-semitism during their lives there. Probably not too much sympathy for Orthodox Christian Russia.
“Lingerie model” is a soubriquet for an ancient profession I tend to think.
It turns out that in the modern form of that ancient profession, claiming to be a victim of Russian assassins gets you a whole lot of free advertising.
Семь тысяч долларов за секс без извращений кто такая модель Шапиро
Obviously, the gut reaction is one of anger and revenge but the last thing we need right now is some kind of insane kneejerk reaction that will only cause more problems.
Why shouldn’t Putin target a part time lingerie model?
It makes as much sense as the Skripal story.
Looks like a default no fly zone has been declared for a week while Iran ships in S300’s
worth following this guy and donating to the cause. Go back through his breaking stories. He seems to have good sources
Have you read the Wiki page on him? White nationalist/holocaust denier/FBI informant. Quite a character.
He may well be right on this, but I would wait for other sources.
I am interested in what he reports, and whatever his bias it is at least visible and can be accounted for. Other mainstream sources? Not so much.
Wiki[Jewia] is controlled by Gods chosen people. Yes the ones who should own yours and every ones else’s property in the end days. If you are not a Jew WikiJewia should not be trusted. Holohoax is one, if not the biggest, of Jewish lies and is necessary to portray the Jews as victims, not aggressors. The FBI is not totally corrupted and as a citizen, if you know of a crime or a potential crime, you are obligated to inform your police or a crime fighting oganisation as FBI.
Took a look at Hal Turners site and a Russian No-Flight Zone is now established for Israhell regards Syria.
I think maybe a retaliation would be too much. That was expected. But the least Putin could do is provide Syria with the S300 or even better the S400 so they are able to defend themselves. If Putin/Russia do not do something significant like the above they may risk of not being taken seriously. The russian personal there will be always in danger. We can not keep cheating ourselves with wishful thinking!
Thank You for your expert opinion Mr. Saker. Perhaps you should keep a copy of this writing nearby.
No doubt, with a few changes, you will be using it again for the next event. Especially for the climb down from the roof types who want extreme violence to solve all of our problems.
Look, I’m not a military expert, but I have followed the events in the Middle East fairly closely for over 30 years. I, and many others, have stated repeatedly that Russia’s clearly demonstrated unwillingness to use its military forces to protect Syria from Western and US strikes can only lead to disaster.
The entire Russian policy in Syria has been confused and riddled with contradictions from the very beginning. The situation in 2015 was:
1. The Syrian government was on the verge of losing a war against jihadi forces.
2. Those jihadi forces were largely foreign and were organized, funded and directed by the
3. The Russians could not match the conventional forces that could be brought to bear in the region by
4. Any Russian intervention could only succeed if the Anglo/zionists were deterred from intervening
directly by the presence of Russian forces and the fear of a wider war (that could go nuclear).
Now given those four facts, which I presume nobody seriously disagrees with, the Russian operation in Syria was always based upon maintaining the fear in the minds of the military planners in Tel Aviv and Washington that any direct interference with Russian forces in Syria would mean war with Russia. This was the most important single job of the Russian forces in Syria…maintaining the deterrent capability vis-a-vis the Anglo/zionists.
How do you maintain deterrence? You do so by enforcing your red lines EVERY TIME they are challenged. Russian inability to clearly define their red lines in Syria and to enforce those red lines each and every time they were tested has led us to a point where the Russians no longer have any credibility in Syria.
My crystal ball says that within the next 30 days, not only will the US massively strike the SAA and the Assad government, but that they will impose a no fly zone over all of Syria to ground the Russian and Syrian air forces. What will the Russians do in response? They will have a choice between war and defeat… Everything they have done to this point, indicates that they will do whatever they need to do to avoid a direct military confrontation with the Anglo/zionist forces. Imagine if you were a military planner in Tel Aviv or Washington, how could you convince anyone that there was any credible threat that Russia would go to war over Syria? You couldn’t…and hence we are now faced with the imminent threat of either an Anglo/zionist victory in Syria or WW3.
The Anglo-Zionists are losing in Syria. Russia, Syria and Iran are winning. That is why the ZioNazis are desperate and moving in themselves, now that their proxies have been defeated. There is no way the ZioNazis can impose a no-fly zone over Syria. If they start shooting at Russian jets the answer will come in the form of nuclear armed missiles. Israel will be taken out in a matter of minutes and made uninhabitable as it has no strategic depth. It does not even take nuclear missiles to achieve the destruction of Israel. If I were Israeli I would not be best pleased with the insane Netanyahu, but Israel at this point seems quite psychotic.
The Russian forces have a standing order to defend themselves with the strongest means available to any attack. Israel managed to create a situation where the fog of war made things less clear but Israel still attacked Russia directly. It is in Israel’s and NATO’s interest to confuse things in Syria to keep Russia from pursuing it’s strategies to the end. It’s only Idlib left now, once the remaining Jihadi proxies have been blown out of their holes (a matter of a few months, much less if Turkey lends a hand) the turn will then come to the turncoat Kurds in the East and they will be dealt with just like the jihadis were dealt with.
This is the scenario that is giving Israel and NATO fits, but they cannot stop it without going to war with Russia. Israel cannot possibly survive such a war, so they want to pull in NATO to do the dirty work while Israel itself sits it out on the sidelines. It won’t work of course.
I am one of the armchair warriors, but hell I don’t know, I could be wrong, and I sincerely hope that I am.
That said, I do understand the ‘wait and see’ logic. My only concern with it, is that if the slow and steady strategy is superior to enforcing red lines, then the problem is that the enemy is not stupid.They in turn will see that either a greater provocation is needed, else they need to find a new weak spot to poke.
Zog wants the Russians to fail, and Assad replaced by their puppet, really badly. They are not going to sit back and think ‘dammit, we lost, out-smarted by those pesky Russians.’
Again, I hope to be wrong. But the nasties in ZOG HQ are as devious, nasty, and fanatical as they come. If plan A fails, plans B, C and D are lined up.
Big picture, the Shia crescent needs Iraq fully on board, and the yanks out. Then Russia (and Iran) has an uninterrupted air corridor to the theatre, and that doesn’t rely on the ever unreliable Turkey..
Zog sees this too. I’m not aware that anybody really focuses on this, but Iraq is really the key. The Sunnis won’t like it, but ISIS was their gambit, and it failed. If Iraq becomes free of US control, and joins the Shia Crescent, we will hear Zog’s screams all over the world.
That’s worth waiting for.
Just look at photos now and from 100 years ago of the River Jordan and you will understand
that the Israelis cannot stop.
Lebanon and Syria are an existential threat to Israel by just remaining countries.
Syria and Iraq are linked. Once Syria is liberated from under the US boot, Iraq will follow. This is, again, what drives the ZioNazis up the wall and why they are so desperate to keep a foothold in Syria and to create a Kurdish Israel. A strategic defeat in Syria, which is well on it’s way, ultimately means the defeat of US and Israeli plans in the ME.
This is why chances are the Zio-crazies eventually will trigger WWIII. They simply cannot accept reality and defeat. They cannot retreat – their mindset is attack only and always. To them, defeat is worse than death, but defeat they will taste simply because their kind never wins in the end.
It is like the Vietnam war (American war in Vietnam) on a global scale. The US may win every battle, but will lose the war overall out of sheer insanity and exhaustion. The US is coming unstuck domestically on so many different levels and so is Israel. The foundation to conquer the world on is simply not there. All the US can do is to destroy and distort and damage. The ability for destruction is truly awesome, but the ability to create constructively is gone, most likely forever.
@ Christian W,
I was with you till you started on the US. The US was hijacked from around the outset, at which time Zog was called the octopus, its tentacles everywhere. Calamities for the US included the civil war, and the launch of the Fed in 1913. If public naivety there can be dispelled, there will be hell to pay there for Zog’s minions. A great awakening, and renaissance of real America, is what Q anon is promising. I am not holding my breath, but it would be an amazing outcome.
Paul Craig Roberts is one of us, and he is American, a very proud one. Let’s not wish harm on America, when it is their masters who are the problem. I wish for America, its own liberation.
I find the whole Q Anon thing to be too good to be true, and in like spirit, I like to hear that Putin has a grand plan, but that is hope in an outcome, and not knowledge. We are all looking for a sign, that the strategy is just a clever rope-a-dope, and victory will be Russia’s. If Putin is playing rope-a-dope, he is doing it brilliantly; he won’t punch back and we are all left on the edge of our seats.
So we vent, because we care. We try to explain to those around us, spread the word, and they are not interested.
That said, the downing of the IL20 seems to be galvanising Russian public opinion., Stupid Israel, what a PR own goal, in the public arena that really matters. Their grand project might as well be to make the world despise them, and they are truly brilliant at that.
And in response to my own comment, here is Israel: ‘Look at how brilliantly we can put a knife in your back. Are we not magnificent?’
Yeah, we are all wide eyed and gushing with admiration, at how clever you are.
@ Occassional Poster
I know the US is in the grip of AIPAC, the Neocon’s and their Billionaire masters etc (including Trump). But it’s time for the American people to accept responsibility for their part in what is happening. It is not OK to accept medals and money for military service overseas to support the Empire. Occupying foreign nations and killing foreign people in order to pay for college and to pay the mortgage and set up an retirement plan is weakness, not strength. “Thank you for your service”, indeed. Too many Americans still worship at the altar of the Pentagon.
It’s time for Americans to kick the MIC to the curb, give up the Petrodollar and corruption that comes with it, and come up with a saner national business model and way of life. I know that many, many American soldiers have paid a heavy price for their “service” or even “servitude”, but not more so than the nations they have ruined during their service. It’s time for the American people to come together and accept that “War” cannot be the solution to every problem facing America in it’s foreign or domestic policies. It is time to Down Tools and clean up the corruption in DC and on Wall Street and in the US establishment in general.
I believe these sentiments are not shocking to most Americans, but this also means the sense of desperation in the US/Zio elites wedded to War is growing, another reason they push so hard and so frantically. They know time is running out for them. On this front and many others.
I have Serbian roots, and US & its NATO poodles bombed and finished their decade long job of destroying my country in 1999. That nightmare just doesn’t end.
But my definition of evil is worth noting. Evil can put a bullet in your head, but where is the fun in that? Put the gun in the hand of a good person, deceive them, and get them to do it. THAT’s true evil, and there in a nutshell is what has been done to the US.
I struggled to understand as a child, why lying was as great a crime in Christianity as murder and stuff, but I later understood; deceit is the greatest evil, it turns good people into monsters. There is no anger like righteous anger.
All that evil needs to thrive, is ignorance. The American people as a whole, are grossly ignorant, but they are not evil; they are simply deceived, just like Brits actualy. A good number of yanks on Zerohedge wish Putin was their own president, so some are awake. Overall, the US citizenry actually can’t give a hoot about Russiagate. There is no mass ill will towards Russia.
So those are just my thoughts. I just want the American, and European people to wake out of their trance.
Oh I have to add this. This is not my assertion, I read it elsewhere, but think deep about this.
WW1 and WW2 were orgies of bloodlust and celebration for the zio bankers; they make money from wars, got their shitty little Zio state, and revelled in the sight of Christian nations slaughtering each other in the millions. This is satanic stuff.
Never again. Don’t fall for these false divisions. Everybody needs to wake up, because it looks like WW3 is being planned for us. To hate on the US, one is absolutely dancing to the zio tune.
Well said, Christian!
Just a question: why do you think that ‘time is running out’ for the US/Zios? Do you think that there is any chance that they would ever be able to repair their socio-economic system? I don’t think so… The system is broken beyond repair, and for a long time. They have created two world wars to save it! We should NOT aloow them to create the third one.
Well done, Mr Putin!!!
@Occasional. I agree that “Iraq is the key”. I have been saying for years that Iraq is the keystone in an Arch of Stability: Syria, Iraq, Iran. Poor Iraq is recovering from catastrophic mismanagement under Saddam (Iran war), repeated vicious attacks by the U$ and its “Coalition of the Killing”, and U$ military occupation with U$ puppet regime. But now gradually there are signs that the U$ occupation forces cannot always prevent the Iraqi army from acting independently, and the U$ puppet prime minister has lost public opinion. So I hope to see the Iraqi Keystone dropping into its proper place in the Arch of Stability across the Middle East: from Syria on the Med via Iraq to the highlands of Iran. And a real chance for peace in the Cradle of Civilization and the Cradle of Christianity.
It will be the best thing that Iraq could do, to kick out the Americans and ally themselves with Iran, Syria and Russia, and in the background, China too. Iraq has been run by the US since 2003, and just look what an orgy of disaster it has been for ordinary people, day after day, year after year, and lets not forget the depleted uranium mess that will never go away.
The Iraqi experience is also very telling in another respect; once Zog has fingered you for chaos, it just goes on and on. Never think it can’t get worse, because tomorrow always a deeper nightmare. It has been a nightmare for Iraq since 1980, since which time, they were first aligned with the US, then against them. Cooperation makes no difference. None.
Just break with the US, and be free. Just get them out. The US will get nasty, but like I said, what good has cooperation done?
Something going on here….?
MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The UK Foreign Office issued on Wednesday recommendations for its citizens to avoid visiting areas along Iranian border with Iraq and Afghanistan as well as the country’s province of Sistan-Baluchistan over security concerns.
“The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise all British nationals against all travel to: within 100km of the entire Iran/Afghanistan border; within 10km [over 60 miles] of the entire Iran/Iraq border; the province of Sistan-Baluchistan; the area east of the line running from Bam to Jask, including Bam,” the Foreign Office said in a statement.
The UK authorities also advised all British-Iranian dual nationals against all but essential travels to the rest of Iran over the risk to be arbitrarily detained.
“The Iranian authorities don’t recognize dual nationality for Iranian citizens and therefore don’t grant consular access for FCO officials to visit them in detention. If you’re a British-Iranian dual national and are subsequently detained in Iran, the FCO’s ability to provide consular support is extremely limited,” the statement said.
Memo to President Putin: treachery everywhere by everyone..
That nice snippet from a very good piece by Tony Cartalucci today…
The inescapable fact -the unforgivable act- should not and cannot be washed away!
Putin stepped all over his military, when he exonerated the Jews for its particularly “clever’ use of the Russian airplane as a cover for an attack in Latakia. President Putin did not say or do what you have stated. Please back up your assertions with facts and read what both the Russian MOD and Putin have stated. Mod
There will be lasting and justifiable damages to Putin’s standing as leader of his nation and his people, unless the Jews pay a heavy price for being so cavalier with the lives of Russian servicemen.
I will not parse words with you.
The Russian military had already determined that its airplane and its servicemen were played as patsies by the Israelis. Shoigu had already told the Israelis that they were responsible, and promised that there would be consequences. (“Reserved the right” merely left the time and nature of retribution to be determined.)
Yet within a matter of hours, Putin referred to a tragic sequence of events; and pointed out that the Israelis did not themselves shoot down the airplane. He openly rejected the assessment of his own generals; and left his military and his people and his entire country feeling that -once again- Russian men will have died in the service of their country unavenged.
This seems to be the Official Story that is being put out in Russia; apparently, the poor Israeli dears didn’t intend to endanger the Il-20; indeed, they may not even have known it was there! It’s all a tragic accident, you see.
I love the smell of bullshit in the morning; it smells like … cheese-eating surrender monkeys.
I certainly hope that Putin knows what he’s doing, but I’m starting to doubt it.
Dear Moderator (part 2),
I refer you to the comments of “ahsahyah”, posted in this string of comments at 09-19-2018 at 7:30 pm edt.
His description of the incident is consistent with my interpretation.
Is the elephant in the room… Iran…
No comments from them as yet I believe..no news of urgent conflabs and phonecalls between Tehran and Moscow…are they gonna follow papa’s example of keep calm and carry on….knowing Israel probable still will assert that its “red lines are clearly defined ” as any excuse to attack supposed Iranian assets capabilities it does not matter about the Syrians that get in the way….I would think a lot of Iranians are not happy their Syrian brothers are victims again….and exactly what value is Russian naval fleet in eastern Med apart from appears at the moment to be an empty gesture letting French missiles fly overhead?
Iran is there for it’s own strategic interests.
Russia is helping, not harming those interests, and that it could do more, is moot.
Iran needs for Syria to prevail and survive. If Russia pulled out, Iran likely would still stay.
See my post above. Iraq is the land corridor; not a coincidence that there has been big trouble there recently. Expect more trouble. It is a major, major piece on the chessboard. If it formally aligns with Iran, it will be panic at ZOG HQ.
The Russian presence in Syria will suddenly have an air corridor to Russia not reliant on Turkey, and Russia will then be the key player in the middle east. Simultaneously, ZOG’s stranglehold will have collapsed. The world is then changed overnight.
OT: US provides Kurds with air defense systems
In light of the above news, and Israel’s notorious unreliability and serial treachery, Russia needs to install S-400 and S-300 integrated with the SAA air defenses around Lattakia, Damascus, Lebanon and Deir Ezzor. Bibi will have a hissy fit (again) but he brought this one upon himself. He never learns. Also, sell S-400 to Iran and Egypt, in Egypt’s case manned by Russian personnel.
NOTAM for Cyprus and the eastern Med. Russia has declared a massive area around and totally including Cyprus to be a danger area for civil aviation (up to 19,000 feet) until 26 Sep. Presumably this will affect civil flights in the area.
This may in part be intended to nobble the Truman’s plans for exercising the aircraft she carries as well as the maneuvers all such groups must practice more or less all the time. At a minimum the Group will probably be kept at a distance greater than the Syrian horizon – probably near Gib…
One cannot maintain effective capability of carrier group without constant exercises. One can do many thing with navy…but as with an army, one cannot sit on it.
Why have you earmarked this posting with a photo of Putin surrounded by Jews?
Are you inferring that Putin is a captive of -or a hostage to- Zionist Supremacists?
Is that why you have claimed, in an earlier post regarding this incident, that Putin cannot act for fear that the “Zionist 5th column” in Russia would not allow him to remain at titular head of government, if he ever moved against the Israelis?
BTW….I see no published condolences from Erdogan to Putin…..telling huh?
An article at FRN makes the argument that it was the French that shot the plane down and friendly fire is taking the blame for political expedience’ sake…. If you have the time, I’d appreciate your opinion?
It does explain two things niggles about this affair …
President Putin’s marked lack of ire at the Israelis for being directly responsible for the loss of that plane and the 15 lives on board (Russia doesn’t normally take so kindly to such) and well …. we haven’t seen President Asaad (himself or an important substitute) anywhere in the media apologising to the Russian people in general and the bereaved in particular for the Syrian mistake that cost the lives of 15 Russians – 15 Russian servicemen who were aiding Syria in their war. A war for a country that but for Russia’s intervention they’d’ve lost years ago.
Asaad doesn’t strike me as a man insensitive to debt owed – there is no way Syria can ever repay what Russia has done for them and he knows that.
It also explains that the Russian made Syrian S-200 missile could not have targeted the IL-20 due to the IFF code in the IL-20.
The only alternative to that is that the Israeli F-16 parked itself on top of the IL-20 until the S-200 was within a very short distance and then peeled off at the last second as the missile entered a terminal phase with all safety locks disabled.
At night and with all the ground radar in Syria and a non-stealthy F-16 (their ground attack was at sea level and the IL-20 was at 15,000 feet) how this could happen unnoticed and without any diversionary tactic by the IL-20 is beyond belief.
Missiles from the French frigate or Israeli/Brit fighters at some distance are more plausible.
Russian news had these articles:
Cat: I have read that article and it makes sense. Its the only piece so far that explains the Russian announcement that the French frigate fired missiles. Where did they go? Also, I felt at the time the Russian response was too slow – hours – although they had all the data. And the friendly fire account is unbelievable. The French denied responsibily before they were ever accused, and the US pointed the finger at the Syrian defences within minutes. Obviously a lot of factors to weigh and discussions to be had. If true, it seems like Putin is again the master of strategy. We have to watch for some unexplained French “accidents”.
When the plane and missile parts are salvaged, proof of ownership of the weapon will be known.
The Russians have warned they will take out any launch platforms used in the injury or death of Russians.
France, if it was them, will either pay enormous reparations or it will never sail into range of any Russian Kalibr missiles.
In other words, France will be forever gone from the Mediterranean.
And if they dare to hide behind Article 5, they will find themselves with no more help than Turkey got from NATO when it shot down the Russian jet. Crickets.
Meanwhile, the Russians collected a lot of radars, and EW data that was thrown up in those crucial minutes. The US,UK,France and Israel ran an operation to get the S-400s turned on. They are terrified that they don’t know how to suppress the systems. Any large aircraft attack would lose ten to thirty planes, totally unacceptable to US and its allies. Even swarming with drones would still cost them planes. The system can filter the drones and wait for the planes (regardless of stealth).
It will take time to be certain what culprit did what in the operation. Once the Russian military and Intel have certitude, then actions will be taken.
Until then, everyone has the answer. They pull it from between their cheeks and declare Putin too stupid, too weak to do anything or know anything. But their little ‘gem’ is the easy facts.
“France, if it was them, will either pay enormous reparations or it will never sail into range of any Russian Kalibr missiles.”
Perhaps not if it was the intent behind the event that Russia should blame France and retaliate? In the face of French denial, and of course the Americans will forget they saw nothing and claim they saw Syria do it, how does Russia prove no foul play on their own part when they are the ones who found and recovered the plane debris?
FUKUS needs a pretext to bomb Syria. Not for war, but for their electorates – they must be seen in the eyes of their general publics to be on the side of right or they will have massive anti-war troubles at home and the right will march straight into power at the next elections …to say nothing of how a million Muslim refugees in Europe are likely to explode.
A Russian retaliation on a French warship would be ideal. It would give all three the green light to go bomb Syria and “finally do something to end that mess over there.” …An ‘Armageddon’ in Syria that leaves their own homelands untouched – and the cherry on their cake – this time it’s the Russians warned to “stay out our way.” (I doubt the Americans have forgotten that one.)
Another interesting read regarding culpability is the first half of today’s South Front Syria War Report. But (as they themselves point out) that one definitely needs … more credible sources. Does the 44th brigade exist and has it been arrested by the Russian MP?
…If I remember right, “may you live in interesting times” is supposed to be a curse.
So why should Asaad apologizing for a Israhelli deed resulting in 15 dead Russians? Also, the Russians is in Syria primary not to save the ass of Asaad, but their own ass. Russia know that they stand in tour for Jewish (Satanist) slaughter after Syria and Iran. So you are wrong also on that, Syria has no debt owed to Russia involved in a death struggle with Satanism (Judaism).
I think a basic question here is whether the Israelis were deliberately trying to down the II-20. Is it a coincidence that the Israeli attack took place precisely when that plane was landing? The Israelis have done worse. I think they had foreknowledge of 9-11, for example, and were unwilling to help their American “friends”.
Given that 15 Russians were killed Russia probably does need to respond. The challenge will probably be to avoid actions that restrict Russian choices, especially given that Trump & Co. are willing to play nuclear chicken. The Russians want to avoid being forced into a sequence of actions that lead to WWIII or other bad outcomes. They want to make the choices, not others.
The Israelis have a history of trying to provoke others. For example, before they invaded Lebanon they tried to provoke a PLO military response to some attacks so that they could claim their invasion was self-defense against PLO “aggression”. The PLO didn’t take the bait but the Israelis invaded Lebanon anyway.
I haveto challenge your cleverly hidden piece of misinformation. The WTC was brought down by controlled demoliton and the sheer scope of the operation (3 sites, NORAD exercise) clearly points to the involvment of state actors. So about what should the the Israelis warn their US comrades?
Its true building #7 appears to have been destroyed by a controlled demolition but we don’t know for sure at this point who was responsible, although Israel is high on my list of suspects. (Incidentally, there is evidence that the 1993 WTC bombing was an Israeli black op. too.) However, we do know that an Israeli spy ring followed the 9-11 hijackers for months and a group of these spies cheered during the 9-11 attack. This convinces me that while the plot was carried out by Al Queda, the Israelis were in the background making sure they succeeded. It also convinces me that the Israelis are perfectly capable of deliberately downing the II-20 or worse.
We know who said this: “I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, ‘We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.’ And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse.”
That’s who did it, no?
It is a suspicious statement. Everything about 9-11 stinks. A large number of people sold airplane stock before 9-11, suggesting foreknowledge. Why hasn’t the FBI investigated these people? Our government is so corrupt it can’t even properly investigate a disaster like 9-11. Its O.K. to blame Al Qaeda for the attack but not O.K. to go beyond this.
Not sure if kidding. If you have any common sense left and some understanding of physics, you will see in the ample footage of the collapses that all 3 buildings were demolished. WTC 7 was the one where they used the standard method, but that clearly wouldn’t work very well with the twin towers, so they had to be dismantled top-down. There is enough documentation about this from a multitude of reliable engineers, so yea.
Buildings do not collapse in near freefall into their own footprint when they are damaged on one side about 6/7 their height above ground. Nor do they desintegrate into dust. Logic and physical laws still apply.
The pentagon was hit by a missile. This is also pretty obvious if you just look at the size and shape of the hole, missing wreckage, and the only footage being 5 frames of one single CC, in which you can only see a fireball.
@Edward Half truth.
There were no planes, so there was no Al Quaida!
DIs/Misinformation live filmed movie(s) show clearly no planes, for one plane s left wing was hidden behind a building that was behind the WTC building. Look for YT official movie.
Pentagon explosion was a laugh and Shanksville was an empty hole in the ground etc.
The planes were put by CGI like clumsily technique.
Also a plane cannot by laws of physics fly without losing speed fly in a e steel and concreet building even without breaking the slightist part of nose, wing and certainly tail!!!
Etc etc SO conclusion no Arabs like Al Quasi Quaida, and total involvement of US leaders and Israhell aka “The Globalist psycopathic criminal maffia”.
I think I saw the documentary you have in mind, but as I recall it only claimed some journalists had doctored a video so it appeared to show a plane flying into the WTC. This is not the same as claiming no planes flew into the WTC. Either way the Israelis had their dirty hands in this affair.
Saker,they did their “thing” just under the nose of the russian military.the message is clear:”we are independent & autonomous player in this,any settlement should bear our approval”.that’s just a starter!
I think the case was caused by Israel air-force who operates independently from the political leadership. The downing was an exercise directly from their school-book.
Previously Putin had agreed on political level not to deliver S-400 batteries to Syria (because there would be a time when Russia is no more in Syria). In exchange Israel would not utilize this weakness of Syria. But the air-force operated independently.
If no agreement is reached Russia would sell S-400’s to Syria.
Now we are coming to the next steps.
— Russia is speaking of delivering S-300.
— Russia is delivering S-300.
— Russia still has the option of delivering S-400 if no common ground is found.
“Israeli military delegation led by air force commander to travel to Moscow to share information on Il-20 plane crash.
The Israeli military delegation led by Air Force Commander Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin will travel to Moscow on September 20 with information about the crash of a Russian Il-20 reconnaissance aircraft off the Syrian coast that killed 15 military personnel, the IDF press service said Wednesday.”
Will be interesting to see how or maybe if it correlates with Russian intelligence?
If anything, the isrealis will lie and try to confuse the issue so the truth will never be found.
Yea, the psychopaths in Israel have a good habit to support them they just have blown up:
Jim Stone: The ‘Groundbreaking’ Fukushima Whistleblower is Now “The Fugitive,” Running for His Life
Very, very long game, indeed.
Whilst i assume that the downed plane will be replaced and also the deceased, may god rest their souls, can also be replaced, would it be true to suggest that the personnel on that plane would have gained a lot of experience in Syria and knew the area exceptionally well or were they on rotation? ie are there ready made replacements with the same experience? I ask because the US carrier group Harry Truman has seemingly entered the med.
Not long ago, I read an article that something like 75% of the Russian air force personel have rotated through the Syrian assignment.
The Harry S. Truman is not in the Med. Southfront regularly publishes maps of where the USN says their carriers are. It is currently off the east coast of Canada conducting drills with the Canadians.
Interestingly, even though two active duty carrier groups are off the east coast of North America, and even though the east coast just got hit with a massive hurricane, a quick internet search found no mention of these carrier groups even bothering to give aid to American taxpayers in trouble.
The Harry S. Truman is not in the Med.
Russia has rotated over 40% of all its crews, and many of the ground forces, probably also, logistical guys on the ground, too. The Syrian “experience” of combat and tactical support is now blended throughout all units and military districts. Tens of thousands of Russians have had a taste of Syria.
What we have seen, in this incident, is a full test of the EW capabilties of the western & Israel armies, as was in all the cases of post-Yom Kippur battles between soviet SAM’s and western & israelis EW systems, where these systems could not stop the air campaign (even if in some case some SAM’s survives by moving and mainly not fighting)
There are two options:
a) The syrian army does not have the IFF codes of the russian air force, which will be not merely a huge mistake but a lack of professionalism in this environment with so many air forces around bombing ISIS, iranias, russian mercs, hezbollah fighters, etc…
b) The syrian army have the IFF codes of the russian air planes and what you have seen is how some EW devices (not in F16, but probably in the french frigate or other NATO planes) jammed the radar and guiding system of the missiles and make them take the IL-20 as a foe
I think the true option is b)
Israel and the NATO need to show the russians that they can defeat, in any moment they want, the combined air defense of Syria and Russia, and they had tested it in the more possible dangerous place, which is just beside and in the middle of the bases of Khmeimim and Tartus, an area plagued with S-300, S-400, Pantsirs, Khrasukas, EW devices, missile destroyers, etc…They have induced the syrian SAM, or better one or more S-400 that were also fired, to shot-down the IL-20 and at the same time the Auvergne frigate, and may be some others NATO planes, were bombing the syrian army installations, with almost total impunity, during more than 90 minutes, with theses missiles flying just few miles from the Khemimim & Tartus bases; and there were too many missiles hitting hard Latakia, Tartus, Homs, etc… at the same time to be the job of only four F-16 in one tour (remember, they are not B52, B2 or B1). This was a huge show of force
Of course, the attack came from the sea, but not only, or mainly, from the israelis F-16 but many other platforms, and also I think the more correct explanation for the downing of the IL-20 is that one russian S-400 missile shot-down it, and for this reason they cannot blame the poor syrian crews of the SAM’s
This explain also why Putin was so “charm” with the israelis, and babbling about “new weapons systems” yesterday, as an attentive observer could have heard, an it is nor by chance; Putin is a former spy and know very very well all the details of this incident without the need of the military chain (and their cover-up); he for sure have eyes and ears that inform him directly and exactly about what happened, and probably he knows more than Shoigu, and he know that, in fact, the russians DID retaliates to the israelis jets with one or more S-400, but a “tragic chain of events” bring the downing of the IL-20 (by a russian missile), and the israelis will prove that in Moscow (but, of course, they will not explain what was the root cause of the “mal-function” of the system, and Putin will not ask this to them)
Putin knows perfectly that Russia is not, and probably will not be never, ready to a conventional war far from the russian border with NATO, and he is busy preparing the ground for a full russian retreat before a change in the US presidency/congress make possible the destruction of the russian contingent in Syria; and Nope, that destruction would NOT means a nuclear war, but, of course, a full blown of his presidency where the Syrian country is a side show)
The russians should also investigate carefully the “accident” of the AN-26 with 39 soldiers on board, including one major-general, in march this year
But if the chinese have been in the game, that would be another history (or not, who knows…)
I have to agree up to a point that this attack was a “full test of the EW capabilties of the western & Israel armies”. This was not just an Israeli attack. Israel just supplied four attack jets. The French were (as Russia observed) firing missiles. British aircraft were high overhead providing surveillance and attack data. U.S. surveillance aircraft similar to the IL-20 are more or less full-time orbiting off the Lebanon/Syria coasts gathering data, probing electronic systems and providing aerial data link relays for the planes and ships below. We should all stop calling this an “Israeli attack”. It was basically a NATO attack on Syria. It’s evident that the Russian and Syrian forces were not prepared for such a combined attack as this. NATO “won” overwhelmingly. And this was just a “warmup” for the next, bigger attack to come. Russia must up it’s game drastically or it’s going to face a crushing defeat in the next attack.
It is possible… My only observation is: why the isreali were so apologetic in the following day? Is this also part of the plan to con the Russians?
The admins and some commenters on off-guardian.org are taking a very sound and rational line
I just had a peep and see that our own Mulga is on there; good girl!
I gave up on the Guardian’s comment site myself, 10 years ago, as the censorship on there made it pointless. Has something changed?
There was one prolific commenter there, MrPikeBishop, who was so popular, he was even commissioned to write articles above the line. Then one day, bam, he is banned, and his entire posting history gone. That did it for me; little emperors not fit to clean his boots, just rubbed him out. I spat on the site that day and never went back. Proclaiming themselves the bastion of free speech, when they actually the enemies of it.
Actually, I was caught out here in the UK, by the demise of the old five pound note, and then the ten pound note, because I stopped reading and watching MSM years ago. It’s worth it, to get their irritating buzzing out of my head.
Back to the linked Guardian article; this is indeed interesting – these questions asked by the journalist:
– Who really did shoot down this plane? Was it an accident or did France and/or Israel attack?
– Are Russia publicly accepting a false narrative to avoid having to retaliate?
– Do they even understand how close we’re coming to global war, whenever a NATO country operates in Syria?
– How long can we rely on Russian common sense to avoid WWIII?
Just to clarify the Off-Guardian.org site is NOT affiliated with the Guardian and in fact was set up to “monitor the decline” of the paper
Thank you Marcus, that explains a great deal.
And there is a whole lot of decline in the Guardian, and the whole pack of them, to monitor.
These MSM outlets are outright enemies of the people.
Well said Saker, patience is vital where such high stakes are in play. The knee jerk mindset in Russia and Syria’s enemies is their weakness and Russian leadership has no need to be sucked in to their game. No doubt the provocations will continue and the false flag undermining will continue but we see a steady hand here and are all grateful for it.
The next step is the complete liberation of Latakia and Homs and the progressive assertion of the 15km DMZ. Lets see if Turkey is really willing/capable of doing that. Perhaps they will as long as Russian forces are at their side. The next month is a major step in the end game for the jihadis and their western backers and those backers are desperate to foil peace at any price.
There are measures that Russia could take that would not be an overreaction or fall into the trap that this Western provocation was designed to elicit.
In particular, Russia could (finally) provide Syria with S-300 or even S-400 air defense systems. These are defensive systems that could protect Syrian airspace from the almost routine illegal violations that the Americans, Israelis, British, and French have heretofore conducted with impunity.
Russia could also provide Iran with the same air defense system.
After all, if Russia can sell these air defense systems to terrorist nations like Saudi Arabia and Turkey, it can surely sell them to long-standing allies like Iran and Syria, which are menaced by the American and Western war criminal states.
And Russia could also refrain from tacitly siding with Israel, America, Britain, and France over their demands that Iran and Hizbollah leave Syria, as it is currently doing.
These are all modest steps in response to what is an outrageous criminal war against Syria that the self-styled Western democracies have perpetrated for the past several years.
The fact that the Russian government has not instituted these moderate policy changes is one major reason why many commentators question what Putin’s agenda really is and where his loyalties lie.
Russia is taking steps:
“Also, speaking of Syria: has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced?”
Why it has remove any justification for an US Attack? I mean even IF the US cares about ANY justification. They will find a another reason to bomb the shit out of Syria.
And if the pocket not get cleared the US get all what they wanted, to keep there proxy’s alive and kicking.
What i have been puzzled about ..
* Is there no friend / foe system that should make incidents like that almost impossible ?
* Isn’t this a clear indication that all the proposed features of the mighty Russian radar complexes are a myth ?
They didn’t detect the incoming jets, therefore didn’t warn off the IL-20 crew, therefore ..
* Even had an AWACS in the air and still had no warning indicators.
* Doesn’t this make look Russia weak and therefore will guarantee further escalation.
* No follow up on the “French Frigate” and it’s alleged shooting ..
* No (or relevant) comments of Iran or Syria on the strange developments in Idlib
This combined NATO attack on Syria does make the Russian military look ill-prepared in what is today a modern, multi-domain battle space. Being able to just shoot down a few incoming missiles is just not enough to prevent or to deter a full-on air, land, sea, cyber joint-forces attack.
The best form of revenge is to avoid provocations and work towards a united terrorist-free Syria with fully restored national sovereignty.
The IAF has sent a delegation, led by AMikam Norkin, to Russia.
“The Air Force commander and his entourage will present a picture of what happened in all its aspects, including the main conclusions of the investigation conducted by the Israel defense forces,”
Executive summary: It is all Syria’s fault – and Hezbollah – and Iran. Poor innocent Israel is just the victim here.
Looks like Netanyahu will not be getting an invite to next year’s Victory Parade.
That’ll show him.
Your update1 in your previous article does the same about Putin as what you are suggesting about others in this article. No?
In my opinion your analysis in update1 is right I would stick to that.
This is a dense match of chess between very skillful/powerful players. Russians since 2015 have slightly had the upperhand. They have conveniently, successfully and cleverly decided to play with patience and restrained commitment, this could have taken several more years or a more commited “on the ground” investment, but in a large extent they have been playing with their opponents’ mistakes to make things faster, easier and/or far-reaching. Remember the downing of the Su-24 by rogue, US/Zio controlled elements of the turkish air force hoping to provoke a turkish-russian impasse/war? What happened next? There was a sad loss of lives, but also russians had the chance to add pressure to the tourniquete, and is difficult to imagine an outcome with Turkey almost having its spine broken in half (a sounded indirect reckoning that even made zionists and saudis start going to Moscow to kiss Putin’s hand), now almost de-facto out of NATO, and a russian technological and diplomatic show-off, without that event and a restrained direct attitude by Russia.
It will be the same with this incident. The IDF made a HUGE mistake, this being the fail from the israelis to comply with the security accords with Russia, with the bad luck for the zionists that their dastardly choice resulted in loss of russian lives. The sad loss of the Il-20 and its crew will work as a warrant. Russians are going to press the tourniquete again, and they are gonna do it wherever and whenever it suits better for them. I don’t think the pro-zionist lobby in Russia will recieve much love from the people, nevertheless hold easily their power… goyim must be angry. Also, I think Putin hinted something when he publicly commented that israeli attacks violate syrian sovereignty.
By now, toughts and prayers for the russian families that are suffering this terrible loss. As has been the case with other russians and syrians, I have high hopes their blood was not spilled in vain.
PS/Side Note: I’m going full tin paper hat on this, but I’m very, extremely surprised by the tremendous assertiveness and cost-efectiveness of Russia in almost all fronts of this hybrid war since its more “hot” phase in 2014. Can’t recall details now on when but I remember thinking more than once “can these guys see the future?”. Is it possible that they have come up with some kind of secret breakthrough in super-computing, programming and/or estadististics/mathematical science? I also relate this “excel” in decision-making with the development of hypersonic weapons. Think about it, material and aerodynamic sciences have solutions for hypersonic flight since the era of development of MIRVs, but to make pin-point manouverable hypersonic weapons (ie avangard), and even means to defend from these threats (S-500) imply the use of miniaturised systems that can process extremely complex info, in no time, take/sugest decisions, in no time, and control aerodynamic surfaces, in no time. All this being cost-efficiently discardable. Is this maybe the reason in the lack of success on US hypersonic programs by now? Because in material science I think we can agree they are not doing bad…
Saker: “Furthermore, there *are* questions which need to be investigated. For example, the Russians have declared that the Russian air defenses and the Syrian ones have now been integrated. Most people don’t realize that an S-200 battery does not just fire by itself or by the decision of the crew. At the very least, this decision is taken by a air defense command post which evaluates the threats and allocates targets. There is a high probability that Russians were also involved in the chain of events which lead to the downing of the Il-20.”
Around this point, I am of the opinion that (1) the IL-20 and its experienced ELINT crew were the prime target in the whole ‘raid’ and (2) the Israeli F-16s were only a distraction – an Israeli F-35 did the deed. Remember, there is now an operational squadron of Israeli F-35s, which has been practicing being stealthy over Syria and Lebanon (and maybe Iran). This has been overlooked in most analyses…
My opinion is that the Israeli F-16s were used to keep the Russian/Syrian radar operators focused on them and ignoring the rest of the area. The main mission of the F-16s could have been to draw-out the Syrians to fire S-200 missiles at them (and the Russians to okay the launch). Without that, the downing of the IL-20 by ‘nothing’ would have been too obvious.
If the Syrians were firing S-200 missiles towards the general area, there would be ‘plausible deniability’ that a S-200 took-out the IL-20. A quick ‘snap shot’ by the radar-invisible F-35 could explain the issue of a ‘Syrian missile’ ignoring a Russian IFF transmission from the IL-20. Meanwhile, the F-16s flew around looking busy.
This might even explain why the Russians noticed a ‘firing’ from the French frigate around that time. Their radars may have picked-up the (non-stealthy) missile from the F-35 and assumed it was from the frigate. This could have even been a part of the overall plan, if the Israelis wanted to spark a NATO incident when the Russians fired back. Putin was wise to not have a knee-jerk reaction; the ‘game’ may have been much deeper…
(My condolences to the families of the IL-20 crew.)
the radar-invisible F-35
Israel Is Hiding That Its State-Of-Art F-35 Warplane Was Hit By Syrian S-200 Missile
Israel could easily defuse this by accepting responsibility for their actions, offering an unconditional apology, and compensation to the families who lost their husbands/fathers. But no, it will fsck around blamng Assad and anyone else while claiming to be the victim. I hope the Russians televise the meeting with the IAF leader so the Israeli shit-headedness is fully revealed.
Apparently a former Russian General is also calling for action:
Ex-Russian General Urges Moscow to Shoot Down Israeli Fighter Jets
TEHRAN (FNA)- Former head of the main department of international military cooperation of the Russian defense ministry General Leonid Ivashov called on Moscow to target any Israeli fighter jet which violates the Syrian airspace.
“Moscow should expel the Israeli ambassador to Russia and shoot down the Israeli fighter jets in case of entering the Syrian airspace,” Ivashov, the president of the Academy of the Geopolitical issues of Russia, said on Wednesday.
He also asked Moscow to decrease the level of cooperation with Israel and halt issuing visas for the Israeli nationals.
The Russian military said an Il-20 electronic intelligence plane was hit 35km off Syria’s Mediterranean coast as it returned to its home base nearby. All 15 Russian crew members were killed.
Russian defense officials described maneuvers by Israeli fighter jets during the incident as “hostile” and said it had a right to retaliate.
“The Israeli pilots were using the Russian aircraft as a shield and pushed it into the line of fire of the Syrian defense,” Igor Konashenkov, Russian defense ministry spokesperson, told state media.
A warning from Israel was received “less than one minute before the strike, which left no chance for taking the Russian plane to safety,” added Konashenkov.
My sentiments exactly!
Israel is blatantly guilty of two international crimes.
First, that of attacking Syria not once but 200 times and Syria has not counterattacked. Yet Israel flouts international law, scoffs at international law, bombing and killing its neighbor’s people.
Second, by setting up the Russian plane to be shot down, Israel can be charitably accused of gross criminal negligence and manslaughter both of which would land an individual in prison for a good long time. “Sorry I ran over your child…won’t happen again…honest (fingers crossed behind my back..haha)”..would not cut it in a court of law.
At a minimum, using Western standards, Israel should face strict sanction, if the ‘Skripal standard’ is applied. You kill people, you get sanctioned. There are certainly non military methods of dealing with Israeli aggression.
Simply chalking it all up to a series of mistakes is a complete and obvious misinterpretation of facts. Were Israeli planes attacking Syria or not? Where they deliberately hiding behind a Russian plan and didn’t inform them or not?
Create visa restrictions, reduce Israeli access to Russian diplomats. Disinvite from future Victory Day parades, at the least. Similar things have been done—unjustifiably no less–against Russia. Israel committed two crimes, it must pay. Otherwise, Russia is simply acting like an abused spouse.
I am sure that Russia will give an appropriate response. No doubt. ‘Non-military methods of desling with isreali aggression’ is just the only way of dealing with these aggressions if a world war is to avoided. Russia and Syria have WON this war; so, they must remain calm to be able to, slowly, get rid of the residuals.
> and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced?
This “right after” is not a very strong argument.
Equally true is that Russian Military aircraft was downed “right after” Russian Ministry of Defense held briefing on which MoD published new documents about MH17 tragedy.
If “right after” should be a causation then MH17 story seems more immediately relevant to me than half-heartened short term Idlib deal
As Saker has been saying, Russia is simply not in a position to make strong moves in Syria. Putin’s only hope was to see internal differences within the Deep State and its European vassal states. Trump’s election scared the Hell out of official Washington and its vassal states particularly in Europe. The all want order and unity in the oligarch class to fight populism in the West and impose order–the best way to achieve order is to go along with the Deep State in Washington. As we can see, they now completely ignore Trump and he seems now to be in captivity–a figurehead with little power. The hard hand of the propagandists and security services has shown itself and there is little resistance among the population so there is no reason to worry about atrocities in Yemen or Syria and Washington is free to wage war as it sees fit wherever and whenever it wants.
Putin was able to outwit Washington during Obama because there was no unity in Washington and in European capitals. Now there is a lot of unity–the EU project sees that it cannot survive without a close alliance with Washington with its outstanding covert operation capability that will and is manipulating the leadership class and the media in Europe to actions that are directly harmful to European civilization but will be able to impose its authority regardless of popular feelings–Europeans are even more sheeplike than Americans–Americans have the vice of just being chumps and they are slowly beginning to realize this so that, the only hope for us in the USA, may take some time to manifest so it makes sense for Putin to lay low at least until a solid alliance can be made with China and though they are moving in that direction it’s not there yet. China continually hedges and looks out only for itself knowing it can afford to wait.
THE OVERARCHING STRATEGIC LOGIC BEHIND PROVOCATIONS AGAINST RUSSIA: 2014-2018
Since Spring 2014, at least 20,000 Russian civilians in Donbass have been killed by Ukrainian artillery. The Ukrainian artillery campaign continues up to the present day.
In November 2015, a Turkish Air Force F-16 shot a Russian Air Force Sukhoi Su-24 down over Syrian airspace.
Last night, a Russian Ilyushin IL-20 reconnaissance-plane was shot down over the Mediterranean, resulting in the deaths of all 14 crew-members.
The Russian Defence Ministry accused the Israeli Air Force of being responsible, alleging that Israeli F-16’s had set the Russian aircraft up by using its larger radar cross-section as a shield against Syrian S-200 air-defence systems. Other sources allege that the Russian reconnaissance-plane was shot down by the French frigate “Auvergne.”
Putin Turns a Blind Eye to US, NATO, Turkish and Israeli Aggression in Syria
by Stephen Lendman (stephenlendman.org – Home – Stephen Lendman)
US-led naked aggression has been ravaging Syria for regime change since March 2011, Israel an imperial partner, along with other regional rogue states and NATO.
Now in its 8th year, prospects for resolution any time in the foreseeable future are virtually nil.
Endless war rages, perhaps for years to come, the same horrors playing out in all US war theaters because of Washington’s permanent aggression agenda.
Peace and stability defeat its imperial objectives, Republicans and undemocratic Dems on the same page – supporting endless wars of aggression, a diabolical plot for controlling planet earth, its resources and populations no matter the human cost.
Syria is ground zero, the world’s most dangerous hot spot. Flashpoint conditions in the country could escalate to direct US/Russia confrontation.
Putin justifiably wants it avoided. Nor does he want conflict with Israel, automatically drawing in the US if occurs, risking armageddon.
At the same time, passivity and appeasement don’t work with hegemons – not with Hitler ahead of WW II or bipartisan extremists in Washington now.
Their actions in cahoots with Israel and NATO risk cataclysmic nuclear war if not confronted and stopped.
Failure to do the right thing encourages dark forces in these countries to keep pushing the envelope to greater aggression against targeted countries and new ones.
All sovereign independent nations are threatened, including Russia and China, the only countries able to challenge Washington’s rage for dominance effectively.
Both nations are surrounded by hostile US military bases. They’re assaulted by illegal sanctions and other hostile actions.
Trump’s escalated trade war with China rages, threatening the global economy if pushed too far for too long.
Provocatively advancing America’s Asia/Pacific military footprint risks military confrontation between both countries in a part of the world hostile to invaders, a lesson learned and forgotten by Washington.
Obama and Trump regime hardliners bombarded Russia with false accusations – including “aggression” in Ukraine, “annexing” Crimea, downing MH-17, meddling in America’s electoral process, interfering in other elections and Brexit, mass doping athletes, Russian trolls and bots up to no good, cyberwar, sabotage, hybrid warfare, the Skripal incident and more – endless US hostility, including vicious state-sponsored propaganda proliferated by media scoundrels.
US political, economic, and propaganda war on China, Russia and Iran risk things turning hot – unthinkable but possible.
On Monday, Putin suspended a vital Syrian ground offensive, greatly aided by Russian airpower, to liberate Syria’s Idlib province, the last major stronghold of US-supported terrorists in the country essential to eliminate.
If not now, when? As long as these jihadists remain in Syria unchallenged, along with permitting northeast and southwest parts of the country to be occupied by hostile foreign forces, liberating the country will remain unattainable.
Heavily armed, US-supported cutthroat killer terrorists aren’t passive. As long as they’re unchallenged in Idlib or elsewhere in Syria, they’ll continue committing atrocities, defenseless civilians harmed most – including by CW attacks falsely blamed on Damascus.
Appeasing the US, Israel and Turkey in Syria is defeatist. Failure to confront their aggression encourages more of it, risking something far more serious than what’s now going on, jeopardizing world peace and stability more than already.
I’m profoundly disappointed by Putin’s actions this week – suspending Idlib’s liberation, along with failing to denounce Israel’s responsibility for downing Russia’s IL-20 reconnaissance plane on Tuesday.
Russia’s Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu accused the Netanyahu regime of putting the aircraft and crew in harm’s way, bearing full responsibility for what happened.
Russia’s Defense Ministry spokesman General Igor Konashenkov called Israel’s action “hostile.”
Putin shamefully called the incident a “tragic” error, absolving the Netanyahu regime instead of holding it fully accountable for a war crime – along with turning a blind eye to endless US-led aggression in Syria and Israeli slow-motion genocide against defenseless Palestinians.
He repeatedly turns the other cheek to endless US hostile actions instead of challenging them short of declaring war, risking armageddon if waged between the world’s dominant nuclear powers.
In response to the Tuesday incident, Putin said “(a)s for retaliatory measures, they will be first and foremost aimed at additionally ensuring the security of our military personnel and facilities in Syria” – not good enough!
As long as US, NATO, Turkish, and Israeli aggression in Syria go unchallenged, the nation and its long-suffering people will never be free from the imperial scourge, devastating their lives, well-being and future.
“What about the Auvergne? Is Russia engaging in strategic disinfo to avoid being drawn into a trap?”
I think the Guardian is wrong, as France would not take the risk to shoot down a Russian airplane.
Nothing is sure, only military people know. What is probable is that Israel has less and less friends among military people.
Some thoughts about it (in french):
Off-Guardian.org isn’t the Guardian! It’s a sort of anti-Guardian in fact. The Guardian would sadly never publish such an article.
If you don’t know OffG please check it out. It’s a great source of analysis on the Guardian’s sad decline.
Even the Swedish airforce flying sign/int missions, today in the summer,outside Syria.They´re going in a “tramline” outside to record Russian and Syrian communication. 1952 a Swedish DC3 with US technology. was downed over the Baltic Sea, June 13. of a MiG15, and 8 crew died.Mission; to pave the way for a US/Nato ” Sunday Punch against the Western Russia´s cities,
“did you know that the Russians have, apparently, run out of Novichok gas”
Well, you see Saker, it appears, going by numerous comments in UK Daily Rags [I wont dignify them with the title “newspaper”], Russia is broke. 70% of their people are starving and freezing, living in mud hovels on half a loaf a day, plus a bottle of vodka; their economy is the size of Italy or Spain – when asked how, in that case, they are managing to do what they have to the military, you are firmly informed that it’s old, rusted out junk, the soldiers are untrained and, yes, of course, drunk on vodka, and the new missiles are “Potemkin” – it’s just Putin bluffing.
So, of course, it’s perfectly reasonable to them that Russia is now so broke it can’t make any more Novi-joke [it couldn’t get it anywhere else, of course, as it’s the only country that knows how to make it] and has to use Rat Poison.
Be careful and afraid – they could be using Paint Stripper next!!
Please Putin just declare a nice wide exclusion zone. Why the HELL is Syrins doing any of the cover work around the base?? Russia should be doing it only around the base
I would suggest Saker is correct, Russia does not need a full war in Syria involving NATO and Israel. Israel does at it wants as the US has its back, did not recently a US general state that the US would die to the last man protecting Israel, they are completely coerced. Even in Oz the most common destination for our useless politicians traveling overseas is…Israel, what for, the lovely vistas?
Only time will tell how this plays out, the desire for revenge is always strong, but sometimes you just need to be rational. Likewise who will win in the end, who knows, we aren’t privy to all information.
yes Saker is right. and it is also right for Putin to be patient in greater understanding of the event.
the integration of the air defence of Syria/Russia is a great step forward and is enough to keep me quiet for the moment. I don’t think the IDF will be attacking Syria by air anytime soon.
things have changed not in Israel’s favour I imagine. good! it is after all armageddon we are dealing with here. on calming down patience is indeed virtuous right here and now
The US is now almost everywhere in Syria(directly or via proxies) like in a playground,free lunch.
Major escalation in Syria
US Supplies Kurds with Air Defense System
Full text of Turkey-Russia memorandum on Idlib revealed
Ukraine:here we go… major NATO AIR wargames
US to hold joint air war games w their client Putsch regime occupying Kiev
New: US to hold first-ever air exercises in Ukraine with NATO allies, featuring F-15s.
One more success for the ”our partners”,”no reaction” policy.Congratulation M Putin soon you will have lost both Syria and Ukraine/Donbass with Ukraine as a pre Barbarosa Nato at your doors.Well done.
Mark Sleboda is a horse’s ass, crybaby, loudmouth who claims authenticity through marriage to a woman from Crimea or near-abouts.
He has nothing to say when Russia wins and achieves, but is the first on line with his tweets to rip Putin for bad weather and anything adverse.
He is useless as an analyst. Find me on thing he has written or said on RT TV blowhard shows that is relevant, much less predictive.
He is like a bearded little ‘paul’. Blah, bad Putin, blah, blah, stupid Putin. And on and on.
In his twitter account he says he worked for the US Army as nuclear engineer….How anybody could make such u-turn in his fidelities, being so intelligent as he pretends to be, puzzles me, since the US Army has always had the will to crush Russia, one way or another….The same for all the Russians formerly or currently working for the US Army pretending to hold a pro-Russian position today…..Thus, he could well belong to that group of Russian, or not Russian, renegades, married to Russian women now returned living in Russian lands…..most probably to subtly spy for the US…..or to cause turmoil and untrust….
Is not a “U-Turn”. Fidelity of Mr Mark is to the US Constitution. When the State discontinued observance of USC Mr S did not. He called ’em, and calls ’em now, precisely as he sees ’em. The guy’s a patriotic man. Actually many US veterans are aligned closely with Sleboda in that they too see that the US Government has entered an unconstitutional phase – and their circumstances limit what they can do about it.
Sun Tsu tells us that no Kingdom, once defeated, ever returns. By abandoning the USC the US is in this sense defeated, gone. If so, what does the oath of office US persons swear mean? If readers were subtle enough I’d say QED and leave them to realize the import…
But they are not, so here: In the postconstitutional realm allegiance to the USC is revolt against the usurping organisation. That’s what Mark is doing, the best he can.
Mark could benefit from a military type physical exercise that, when I was associated with US Army, was called “push-aways”
A Push-away consists of pushing away from the table.
His mass and his voice has no rational relationship to the character of his observations. If these are “useless” how is this a problem? Surely Peter Lavel finds Mark’s contributions both relevant and predictive. So do I.
The natural relationship between US and Rus Army (and Navy) is pacific and cooperative, as they have little fundamental differences. Rus Navy interfered in US Civil War, to benefit of both Rus and the US. And they were allied in combat for years. I expect that situation may well re-assemble. It is evidently a basic goal of VVP, as otherwise Russ will be subsumed by Asiatic character. Bear dance with Dragon alone is suicide for Bear…
Puzzles evaporate when you know more about history and reality.
Putin knows everything with regards to this ‘incident.’
15 Russian servicemen were murdered by the French Rothschild frigate Auvergne. Joaquin Flores makes the case below, although much more conservatively then I would.
I was almost immediately convinced it was the French under command of the Rothschild oligarch cabal plus allies in NATO the moment I heard the FS Auverge had fired missiles in Russian reports. For the Russian IL20 to be hit by integrated S200’s 35kms off the coast of Syria is a virtual impossibility and the French have motive unlike the Israelis. Russia would have avoided mention of the French ship had they wanted to completely absolve it of responsibility.
Further, Russia would have not blamed Syrian S200’s unless it wanted to buy time — since there is no such thing as an independently operated Syrian S200 in theatre. All Syrian S200’s are controlled by Russia, regardless of who operates the individual systems.
The Russians likely believed the IL20 was clear of the Israeli jets and out of immediate danger, nothwithstanding reports of having received a one minute warning from Israel, which was most likely invented after the fact. It is even possible the Israelis attempted to save the Russian plane with a last minute warning, which I know is a lot for most people to digest given what we know about Israel’s historic behaviour, nevertheless Russia and Israel are allies in the theatre.
Again, the Russians have chosen to include the report that the French frigate fired missiles because they hold them responsible. Clearly. Russia has a good a perspective on what is occurring in the eastern Med — perhaps as good as anyone given the assets deployed although much reduced in capabilities with the loss of a precious IL20 surveillance plane. They know what has happened. Officially blaming Israel, an ally of Russia and also the Trump Whitehouse, let’s off steam and gives Russia time to think carefully about a response. The head of the Israeli Defense forces is reportedly already in Moscow for consultations further demonstrating the point.
The Israelis have no interest in provoking the Russians at this stage but the UK-centred Rothschild oligarchy does — with London and Euro Rothschild banks still teetering on the brink of collapse because they hold thousands of trillions of dollars of worthless derivatives — products of the scam with which they’ve been stealing the world since the mid 1970’s (owning 40% of everything that can be counted).
The Rothschild-UK oligarchy needs World War 3 to clear their accounts of all bad debt and this guarantees provocations will continue. Trump is too weak to bring the US military under full control.
On this basis Russia must sit back and wait regardless of the provocations used by their enemies. The UK-centred cabal and allies in NATO must be surprised that they have failed to ignite war between Russia and the United States at least 2 times now. The stakes are immeasurable and the only party with ‘motive’ are the governemnts and institutions controlled by this oligarchical cabal who are sworn enemies of Russia, including France under the pathetic manchild Macron. Yes even Israel is wary of this group because Rothschild Zionists envision the destruction of Israel as a necessary condition for the intilation of their new 1000 year Reich.
In any case the real question is how to you respond to what is officially an agression by France?
Follow the actions of the Russian government and you will know. This is the scenario to which they are responding.
This is the best reasoning I’ve read so far. I agree with you hundred percent. I was thinking along the same lines before I have seen yours. Check out Andrew Korybko’s article (https://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-russia-relations-and-the-downing-of-russian-jet/5654447).
“The main points were that a pro-American “deep state” faction in “Israel” might be responsible for yesterday’s tragic occurrence, and that the US and Iran both have an interest (albeit for very separate reasons) in exacerbating the distrust between Moscow and Tel Aviv to the point of generating a full-fledged crisis.”
When you see things in this context things start getting probably clearer, at least for me. As I have been saying for a while now, two super oligarchic clans are at each others throat. As you said, the City of London (House of Royals) wants to create WW3, which they would have succeeded, if Hillary had been elected as president. The American bankers (I call them the Yankee Doodle), which is basically the Rockefeller clan wants to avoid this and wants to get back to world order 1945 or Bretton Woods (thus Make America Great slogan), where Yankee Doodle emerged as the Victor whereby the House of Royals represented by Mr.Churchill got the kick in the arse. Things has changed since 1970s and City of London got more power and influence in the west, especially in the US. Think about the Watergate scandal, when Nixon was impeached. Things start turning against the American establishment. Finally Clinton becoming president heralded a huge change. Clinton assigned at least three supreme court judges, placing “House of Royalist” at the core of US justice. That is the reason why Trump has so much difficulty placing his men there today. All the so called “Neo-cons”, which are basically cronies of the House of Royals emerged surprisingly like bubbles from their swamp to the surface following Clinton years. Trump’s election was a huge win for Yankee Doodle. They must have tweaked the votes more than the other side to make sure to win the election. Ann Coulter, over one year before the election, surprisingly predicted that Trump will be the next president. She knew something was cooking. All this explains the constant attacks against Trump and request for impeachment by all the strongholds of the House of Royals (MSM, Hollywood, Silicon Valley Tech companies etc.). Losing the White House is a dead sentence for Yankee Doodle. They have no chances. That is why I predict that Trump will win the second term. Yankee Doodle has no other choice. It is the survival instinct.
Coming back to Israel and the latest incident involving the Russian plane. At the beginning, I kind of put the blame on Putin to behave like a coward. But things are not as simple as it seems. It is easy to lynch Putin, especially by Alt-Med. This is the least of the effects that House of Royals were aiming at. Popularity is what makes Putin so strong at home. If he loses support of his people he could very well be a good target for a color revolution. Israel is also divided in between those two competing oligarchic powers. Remember that Netanyahu hardly avoided a jail term. It is not in the interest of Netanyahu to get sour with Russia. Russia is equally divided among those two western oligarchic clans. Calling it a single 5th column is not correct. There are in fact two, like everywhere else. Just think about Turkey and what happened during the last few years. The shooting down of the Russian plane was clearly instigated by the House of Royals. Coup d’etat attempt was again their foul-playing. One of the aims was to cut off Russia from the Med sea by blocking the Bosporus strait. It failed. Similar events are taking place against Russia today. The involvement of French and British frigates in this latest event is quite revealing. Both countries are City of London. Things will be getting more interesting from this point on. No other explanation than this makes any sense whatsoever.
If you say France did it, then I’m 100% sure that Israel is a hasbara gasbag masquerading as a country. So go back to sleep honey.
So according to your theory, Israelis called the Russians 1 mn before their aerial attack to tell them that the french were about to down their plane? or not?
An interesting point of view:
” It was obvious to me that this attack was designed as a provocation to start World War III in Syria and blame the Russians for attacking a NATO member without proper cause, since the Syrian air defense forces were the ones responsible for shooting down the plane.”
And one of the possible consequences ( Deus ex Machina! ) :
” Now Russia can use the excuse of Israeli betrayal as justification for upgrading Syria’s air defenses. Citing the very thing that caused the tragic death of their soldiers, Antiquated Air Defense Systems which didn’t Properly Identify Friend from Foe.
It may be a lie, but since when did that matter in geopolitics? ”
Even if it seems strange right now,the World war 3 or the last war of the history ( according to our orthodox prophecies ) will be triggered by Turkey when attacking Greece.
For those waiting for a strong russian response,just a bit more patience.Russia will fight USA,NATO,Israel ( her troops will encircle Jerusalem ),Japan,etc….i don’t know if many of us will stay alive or not those days.
Please let’s stop talking about WWIII,there will NEVER be a WWIII.Do you really think that the oligarchies in both the West and the East want to lose their wealth,confort,big salaries,millionnaires pensions,their familly,their financial assets?Of course no,never.
If Russia really wants one day(I doubt it)to retaliate in case of a major ‘incident’ with thousand of Russians personnel deaths for exemple,it is easy.
Just go to the extreme limit with an ultimatum ‘à la Cuba crisis’ x 10,not in Syria,not in Ukraine target their countries,they will immediately surrender.But it must really sounds credible,not a fake bluff.They have no balls for a real fight,thousands of bodybags back home.This is not acceptable for western populaces in 2018.Vietnam times ares over.
Politicians would lose their career,everything even in the opposition(same for jornos) as people will ask real questions for once.
Why did you provoke Russia for 4 years?Why did you not only keep Nato alive but extend it eastward?Why so much money(trillions)spent in the MIC(as we are getting poorer by the day,we have no right to a decent health insurance,intrastructures are collapsing,banksters are stealing trillions with their casino in WS in total impunity)?
They are more than afraid that this scenario could ever happen.Once again there is no risk,they are no so crazy as they look like.
@ war is coming
What war is coming ?!
I’m cleaning the church right now,no time for an articulated answer, maybe later but what if Trump and not the oligarchs push the button ? Even Mattis is afraid of that ( just kidding ).
So, due to your reasoning, then the oligarchs wanted to loose their wealth, comfort, big salaries, millionnaries pensions, their family, their financial assets in WW1 and WW2? Sounds Logical?
This is not about oligarchs and money. Satanism (Judaism/Marxism) runs the world and you might take a look at this site:
Who was Albert Pike?
The photo heading this article is interesting in that at least the last three American presidents have posed for the same photo with radical Jews. Perhaps Trump, Netanyahu and Putin all receive the same types of whispers in their ears from the same source? Where might these whispers originate? The ‘City of London’ financial enclave, Wall Street New York, the BIS headquarters in Basel, the Tri Lateral Commission and its like or all of them combined? Combined would be my guess with Nabiullina as the go between.
I think, seeing the kwickness at which Israel reacted to the Putin-Erdogan deal for Idlib, I would suggest that you protect yourself. They are absolutely sleek and efficient. We just appreciate your contribution to all these fundamental geopolitical changes to loose you.
Saker, do you realise that the 10th October is approximately speaking the commencement of the festival of trumpets and as no man knows the hour or day when the new moon is declared…it could be declared on the 11th…dependng on cloud cover. So a time lays before us…it’s occurance being at a time and day know man knows the hour of its declaration.
And so when they declare peace and safety sudden destruction falls upon them. I think that is the plan. All of this is just the decoy. The deception. The clowning around is an act. The duck dragging it’s wing. The incompetence is feigned. This thing looks ever more likely to kick off the second week of this October.
Suggest you look up ‘great red dragon unsealed’ given you theological drivers.
Why does the Russian response to Israel have to be military in nature. Domestic options are superior alternatives to engaging in direct assaults on another sovereign nation. When will Russia nationalize its central bank and issue a gold-backed ruble? When will Russia kick out the 5th column NGOs? When will dual Russian/Israeli citizen oligarchs have their power and influence curtailed?
Of course they Russian leadership will not wear it on their sleeve, and go into hysterical threats of vengeance.
Instead, they will careful consider the response, and, ensuring it matches the severity of the crime, execute it at a time and place maximizing their objectives, and minimizing the risk.
But since the crime is so grave, I see it very difficult to keep it out of the mainstream media; it will show up, and people reading this will know what it is.
We make up only a small minority of the population, but many of us will know.
This will be retribution; it must come.
As many have pointed out here, the aren’t-we-so-clever international collective see the absence of this kind of carrying on and drama as a green light.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this hubris is part of the pay back.
We shall see.
I am as convinced as ever that it is coming, but at a time and place … most convenient and appropriate for the defenders of humanity, they will not act in kind, because they are not of a kind.
That’s good for all of us who don’t hate humanity.
The earlier articles were replete with alarmism, to my mind, and I am pleased to see the the logical trend-based assessment of the potential avenues likely for the administration of justice, in this scenario.