by Evgenii Krutikov
Translated by Seva
The arrest of two mass murderers can blow up Europe
Within a few days two men were arrested: Naser Orić and Ramush Haradinaj, two well-known figures of the Balkan wars, two mass murderers, whose names are as known to Serbs as the names of Basaev and Chikatilo are to Russians. Both were on trial in the Hague, accused of genocide, and both were acquitted. New trial could blow up the region and put European elites into a very uncomfortable position.
The biographies of Naser Orić and Ramush Haradinaj are thrilling, like a good movie, but don’t have much in common. One is a Bosnian, the other Kosovar. Their personalities and biographies are different, but they were arrested under similar circumstances: while they were going through passport control in Bern and Ljubljana, the officers got “red signal” from Interpol: “detain immediately”.
This is an amazing and impressive event. Orić and Haradinaj became symbols of the Hague tribunal for former Yugoslavia (ICTY), because their trials were converted into farce, mockery of justice (if it exists at the Hague) and an affront to Serbia. Today, in the context of general situation in the world and on the Balkans, one can think that this is a step towards Serbia, which is meant to show “positive feelings” of the West.
In the Bosnian Serb Republic (or the “Republika Srpska”) the arrest of Orić was seen as a provocation, because lately Republika Srpska was subject to enormous pressure due to firm pro-Russian position of President Milorad Dodik. Liquidation of Republika Srpska by elimination of its autonomy and merging it into Bosnia and Herzegovina is a clear plan in the context of complicated, often pretty clumsy games that the US and Europe are playing with Belgrade.
Orić is a legend even by exacting standards of former Yugoslavia. Suffice it to say that before he became a head of territorial defense of Srebrenica, this one of the best-known Muslim field commanders served as a personal guard to Slobodan Milosevic. What’s more, he served honestly and even heroically: he was in the special forces unit in 1990 in Kosovo and participated in the arrest of Vuc Drashkovic in 1991 in Belgrade during street riots. Some think that his transfer to his “little homeland” – to Srebrenica and Ilija – could have been an attempt by Milosevic to create in Bosnia a Muslim pro-Belgrade force, as a counterbalance for the Islamist government of Alija Izetbegovic, which was gaining strength, as well as for supporting it nationalists headed by general Sefer Halilovic. However, upon his return to his motherland, Naser Orić was transformed. From a provincial police officer he became one of the most important players in the Bosnian army, right behind Halilovic and Rasim Delic. Only Allah knows what happened in his head after that.
In the course of war, Orić gradually takes control of all military forces in the area and on January 1, 1994, officially becomes the commander of the 8th brigade of the operative group “Srebrenica” with the rank of brigadier general (one-star general), or the factual dictator of Eastern Bosnia. Srebrenica, Vlasenica, Zvornik, Bratunac, and numerous villages around are burned to the ground. Serbs of every gender and age are murdered in thousands. Mad ethnic cleansing achieves greater magnitude than anywhere else in Bosnia. Orić brigade liked to attack Serbian villages during Orthodox and specifically Serbian holidays (e.g., Petrovdan, Djurdjevdan), apparently seeing it as something particularly attractive. As the result, Serbian villages around emptied, the area became virtually mono-ethnic. Some believe that the attack of Serbian army on Srebrenica and murder of many Muslims on July 6, 1995, was retaliation for the horrors perpetrated by Orić brigade for three years. However, international community recognized as genocide only the event of five days in the summer of 1995 and paid no attention to the preceding events.
Orić was deported to Hague in 2003, the trial lasted until 2006 and ended with Orić acquittal on most counts, except the least important – commander’s responsibility. The court decided that general Orić is indirectly guilty of murder and torture of several prisoners of war, because he had an obligation, as a commander, to stop that. Second hearing after the appeal resulted in final acquittal of Orić, despite more than 3,500 murdered Serbs just in the Srebrenica area.
After that Orić lived in Sarajevo, acted as “national hero”. The rumor has it that he drunk a lot and finally was found guilty by local Bosnian authorities of illegal arms possession. He fired a random shot from his own house, having made by that time everybody thoroughly sick and tired of him.
By the way, in Switzerland he was part of the Srebrenica delegation at official commemoration of 20th anniversary of the “genocide of Muslims”. Bosnians quickly managed to create a generalized myth out of the events of the summer of 1995. Srebrenica became a propaganda brand, easily used to get political dividends. Theoretically the extradition of Orić to Belgrade could destroy this brand, which would cause the crash of the whole Balkan political system built on war-time myths. The very existence of this monstrosity, Bosnia and Herzegovina, would become questionable, as soon as Naser Orić testifies in Belgrade trial. BTW, there is a tribunal and an investigative committee on war crimes in Belgrade, which has a lot of questions to Orić and other military commanders of Bosniaks.
Unlike Orić, Ramush Haradinaj is not a tragic figure, but rather classical. If he didn’t exist, he should have been invented as a typical example, each turn of whose biography illustrates political life in Kosovo and this type of “liberation movements” in general.
Having graduated from a village school in a mountainous region of Kosovo with some difficulties, 20-year old Ramush moved to Switzerland: Yugoslavia government encouraged emigration of young people from economically depressed areas. As early as in Tito’s time, foreign passport was handed to graduates along with school diploma, and it indicated the path to follow. In Switzerland, Haradinaj tried to join Foreign Legion, but did not succeed (well, he still cannot speak any European language), so he had to follow his vocation – work as a bouncer in nightclubs. Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA/UÇK) became interested in him while he was there; he gets jailed in Prishtina, escapes, and gets training in subversion techniques in Tropoie, Albania.
After crossing the border, Haradinaj with his father and brothers becomes UÇK leader in mountainous Metohija. Personal reputation, which made him a commander of the “Black eagles” unit and the commandant of Metohija, he earned by brutality. During US bombing campaign Haradinaj was one of few UÇK commanders who received satellite phones for direct communication with NATO troops and coordination with them. These phones also served to direct NATO bombers to Serbian targets in Kosovo. As the result, the commandant of Metohija becomes head of UÇK general Staff, takes over drug traffic and smuggling of arms, cigarettes, and cars. After Kosovo independence, this creature becomes Prime Minister, and European politicians shake hands with him. Curtain.
He voluntarily went to surrender to International Criminal Tribunat for former Yugoslavia (ICTY), in the presence of crowds. Sendoff of Haradinaj to Hague was organized as a state event: red carpet; as a backdrop served a bigger-then-life photograph of a martyr. The first row was filled with the Prishtina elite and invited guests from international organizations. There was an orchestra and fireworks. The greatest local star singer Adelina Ismaili (due to official occasion in along dress, rather than usual bikini) performed the song “Skanderberg”, clearly comparing Ramush with medieval hero who single-handedly destroyed Turks for Venetian money. At the end of the song she kneeled and kissed the flags of Kosovo and “big” Albania (by the way, she is a widow of Kosovo field commander killed due to falling out with other criminals, not by Serbs). Current Kosovo Prime Minister Hashim “Snake” Thaçi (nom de guerre “Gjarpëri” – The Snake) almost became tearful. Everyone knew that even if Ramush gets jailed, that will not be for long. And he will have good times in the jail.
They turned out to be right.
Prosecutors were unable to present 10 (!) witnesses, because nine of them were killed before trial, and the last one was wounded and prudently refused to testify. Out of those witnesses, three (Djeidin Musta, Sadric Murici, and Vesel Murici) were so called special witnesses, who should have had bodyguards and protection, but all were shot during classical contractual assassinations. Another Murici brother, Ramir, who was wounded, but survived, prudently decided to remain silent. Kuitin Berisha was hit by a Jeep in Montenegro, where he moved to avoid just that. Iliri Selmaj was knifed in a coffee house brawl, and all witnesses of that brawl claim that he, being unarmed, attacked six armed thugs. Bekim Mustafa and Auni Elezaj were shot in Prishtina. Members of Kosovo police, former UÇK fighters, who agreed to testify against Haradianj, Sabaheta Tava and Isuk Haklaj, were brutally murdered and their bodies were burned in the patrol car. Earlier, in 2003, Tahir Zemal, a prominent field commander in Haradinaj’s native area Ducadjini (it’s on the Albanian border, arguably the most backward area in Europe, where even the mountain range is called “Prokletje” (Damnation)), was murdered along with his sons. He was Haradinaj’s military competitor and a supporter of more moderate forces in the Kosovar zoo, and therefore planned to testify against Haradinaj.
So the prosecution was left only with the testimony of two “numbered” witnesses, which came to Hague under assumed names and did not reveal their identities publicly. A man and a woman. The woman told about mass rapes, in which Haradinaj personally participated, and about brutal torture and murders of Serbian policemen. The man told that Haradoinaj personally knifed his 5-year old son for “collaboration with Serbs”.
The defense simply shrugged. Originally, Haradinaj was accused of 200 murders, for which he bears responsibility as a commander, and 60 cases of personal participation in executions with remarkable brutality. Only the Serbian Special Tribunal sent to the Hague 200,000 pages of documents. Everything fell apart, and Haradinaj was acquitted. The whole length of this farce of a trial he spent in a famous prison, but had unthinkable privileges. Haradinaj claimed that he, unlike most Kosovars, is not a Muslim, but a Catholic, and the tribunal regularly let him return to Kosovo for Christmas, Easter, and All Saints Day. He also attended the funerals of his nephew (in fights between Albanian clans his father, two brothers, and their sons, were murdered) at the time when Vojislav Šešelj was not allowed to attend the funeral of his mother. Haradinaj gave interviews in Serbian, according to him, to “show respect” for the Serbian people. The whole thing was a farce.
There are honest people even at ICTY, and the judge Serge Brammerz in 2008 appealed against Haradinaj’s acquittal. At the second hearing (that Haradinaj did not attend) he was acquitted again. In addition, the tribunal acquitted his co-defendants Idriz Balaj and Lahi Brahimaj. That was the end in every sense of the word.
If Orić or Haradinaj (or even one of them) is deported to Belgrade, and a real (not the Hague-style) investigation and trial ensue, the whole political status quo in the Balkans will be destroyed. Nothing is as tragic for the peoples of former Yugoslavia as the events of the last 20 years. Such things could come to light that half of European politicians of the first order – former and acting – would find themselves in throuble. That is exactly why it is hard to believe that one or both of these murderers will ever be extradited to Belgrade.
Pawns may look very impressive, but it’s the player who decides…
you are 110% correct here.
sooner or later, I will write about that.
but not quite yet
Good comment about pawns. Milosevic was one impressive pawn indeed (with NY banking pedigree), who led the Serbs into one of their greatest tragedies ever (he lead and the Serbs followed). I will be objective and say that Bosniak politicians were pawns too (perhaps with not much of a pedigree, but pawns nonetheless :)). At first the West recognized independent Bosnia and then imposed an arms embargo against (effectively only) Bosniaks. Perhaps to see how they will fare against 1,000+ tanks which Serbs had at their disposal at the time? :)
Anyhow, I do not know what purpose this article serves other than that it continues to instigate and prolong the self-pitying and self-validating tendencies which many Serbs are prone to (these extend all the way to their defeat to Ottomans back in 1399 btw). For the past 100+ years these tendencies have given the Serbs (a rock solid :)) excuse to commit atrocities against their Bosniak/muslim neighbors (whom Serbs equate to Turks btw and vent their anger on every 40-50 years). This has been the history of my own family too. My grandfather barely escaped the Chetniks in the 2nd WW. He did not try to run away this time round. They came to his house one night in the winter of 1993 (among them some of his neighbors) and killed him. He was 86 years old. He never killed anyone. His wife, my grandmother, was so badly beaten in the head that one of her eyes popped out from the severity of the blows. They probably left her thinking she was dead too.
My wife’s family fared even worse. Her grandmother’s brothers and their entire families were collected at a house near Foca and burned alive (her grandmother ran away, just as she did during the 2nd WW, and she lived). And you can ask around (do research btw) and you will come to the conclusion that the killings, rape, expulsions, torture, destruction of mosques (614 were destroyed….these were not random revenge acts, these were the results of a planned policy to literally cleanse “the holly Serb land” from “the Turks”.
As for Srebrenica, some objectivity is in order. Tens of thousands of Bosniaks congregated in Srebrenica. They ran for their lives (who did they run from?) Now imagine yourself being there at the time. It is a cold winter time, you and your children have had nothing to eat for days. What option do you have other than fight those who are starving you to death, those who have expelled you from your homes (and would in all likelihood murdered you should you have opted to stay). Now, I am not excusing those Bosniaks who may have murdered elderly, women and children (they to deserve to be punished without exception, I care not for them, not the least and am certain that God will give them their fair share eventually). But mano a mano? Oh, boy….
Anyways, lesson for the Serbs (and you ought to heed this lesson for your scriptures oblige you to do so) don’t you turn on your neighbors ever again.
General lesson for all of us in the Balkans, let us be a tad wiser and try to see through the greater scheme of things. At least let us not be obedient pawns any more.
” For the past 100+ years these tendencies have given the Serbs (a rock solid :)) excuse to commit atrocities against their Bosniak/muslim neighbors (whom Serbs equate to Turks btw and vent their anger on every 40-50 years).”
And yet 72% of people killed in Bosnia-Herzegovina during WWII were Serbs and only 16% were Muslims.
Go figure . . .
Only recently a Turkish minister reminded Bosnian Muslims that they were NOT Turks and suggested that those of them making such claims stop doing so.
During 1998-99 Serbs were accused by western journalists of referring to Kosovo Albanians as “Shqiptars”
A very insulting and derogatory term according to those journalists.
The west had invented a new name for Albanians living in Kosovo even though the stem of the new name, Kosovo, was Serbian and meant nothing in Albanian.
They were now “Kosovars” and the medieval Serbian province was no longer Kosovo but KosovA.
Here is the definition of Shqiptar in Wikipedia:
Shqip(ë)tar (plural: Shqip(ë)tarët, feminine: Shqip(ë)tare), Gheg Albanian: Shqyptar, is an Albanian language ethnonym (autonym), by which Albanians call themselves.
The Balkan measure of humanity is to be able to look people in the eyes.
In Examples of Čojstvo and Junaštvo, Marko Miljanov wrote (I improvise and translate)
Junaštvo (heroism) is when you save someone from the evil of a third party.
Čojstvo is when you save someone from your own evil!
Some quislings in Serbia must be filling their pants in fear of these two creeps actually being delivered to justice in Belgrade.
They probably had hoped that the warrant would be ignored, as is still likely.
Theirs will be a very uncomfortable position, satisfying Oric’s and Haradinaj’s patron the USA, and the demand for justice from the Serbian people.
Is it possible that maybe someone wants the can of worms opened? Chaos and strife? 20 years have passed so is it time to do it all over again with a second generation?
Lies can last only till truth is revealed and the time is coming to see the light and justice for those innocent people killed by these horrendous murderers
Western Media does not tell us that Srebrenica was surrounded by Serb villages and that Naser Orich, the Muslim Warlord in Srebrenica used it as a base from which his forces, under NATO protection attacked these villages, killing women children and burning the countryside. His army and 5000 Mujahidin from the Middle East burned over 100 villages and killed some 3000 Serbs.
Captain (British Army) Thornton wrote a letter to Time magazine in 1996. The letter was from Vitez Bosnia. He writes: .
A view of the Balkans Letter Time Magazine
As a British soldier who has served widely in Bosnia for seven months now, I feel I must take issue with the nature of the reporting from this region [May 17]. In the case of the Muslim town of Sre¬brenica, your articles have been scath¬ing in denouncing the Bosnian Serbs and their shelling of the town. However, you have failed to address the question of where the Serbian population of Sre¬brenica was. The Serbs made up 30% of its prewar population. Early on in the conflict, they were forced out of their homes with whatever belongings they could carry and ordered to leave. As the Bosnian Serbs fled, Muslims fired wildly on men, women and children on the road. This story was told to British sol¬diers in Srebrenica by Muslims them¬selves and later by Bosnian Serbs. Earli¬er this year, Bosnian Muslims launched their offensive in eastern Bosnia, bomb¬ing Bosnian Serb villages, raping wom¬en and destroying livestock. I realize that this makes me sound like an apologist for the Bosnian Serbs. I know that what they are doing is terrible. But the press has a moral duty to report objectively. The media are creating a “Let’s do something’, let’s bomb the Serbs; let’s arm the Muslims” rhetoric that is very dangerous. We in Europe un¬derstand the Balkan chicanery and cun¬ning far better than Americans do. We do not want to see ourselves further em¬broiled in a morass when there is no one side that is uniquely culpable. A British soldier sees the bodies of three Croat children who have had their throats cut by Muslim soldiers. Does he want to see those Muslims with bigger and better weapons? Please be more objective.
Sergeant. British Army
When Srebrenica fell many soldiers from this Bosnian Muslim army fled through the forest and some were captured, and some killed in fighting, some fled to Serbia and were then returned to Tuzla their home base, but conveniently Western Media does not mention any of this and the Tribunals ignored it.
More on Oric:
“Oric is a fearsome man, and proud of it.
I met him in January, 1994, in his own home in Serb-surrounded Srebrenica.
On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric’s Greatest Hits.
There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing.
Oric grinned throughout, admiring his handiwork.
“We ambushed them,” he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen.
The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: “We launched those guys to the moon,” he boasted.
When footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: “We killed 114 Serbs there.”
Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.
These video reminiscences, apparently, were from what Muslims regard as Oric’s glory days. That was before most of eastern Bosnia fell and Srebrenica became a “safe zone” with U.N. peacekeepers inside – and Serbs on the outside.”
His jihadis destroyed some 25 serbian villages around Srebrenica, killing over 1500 people. That’s what caused the serbian counter-attack (then proclaimed as “genocide” by the western media) in the first place.
Oh and I don’t see why Oric should be delivered to Belgrade – if anything, then to Banjaluka. Belgrade had very little to do with the war in Bosnia and did very little to help the Serbs there.
I remember the faces of the “Tribunal” kangaroo court the morning after they killed President Slobodan Milosevic. It was a sore and even afraid bunch of criminals not knowing how to proceed or how the murder may affect their careers and reputations.
His imposed “doctors” from the NATO league had “accidentally” treated him with rifampicin, a drug that knocked out his ordinary ones against high blood pressure, which lead to cardiac arrest. He knew for months previously, and warned, that something was wrong and demanded to be treated in Moscow but was denied. That was the end to any credibility the NATO court may have had but the western msm buried it all in a flurry of contradictions and lies until it died down. what followed of “suicided” Serbians, farces and convictions cemented that.
Dropping Oric and Haradinaj is by no means a small gesture from NATO and ICTY at the former Nazi interrogation centre in den Haag.
1. British Resolution to the UN about the Srebrenica ‘genocide’
2. Those two unsavory characters ‘highlighted’ (not more than that)
3. Refugee crisis in Serbia
4. Hungary building wall (Ukrainian technology?) on the border with Serbia
5. Serbia to recognise Kosovo in order to enter the EU
6. Turk Stream, Greece, Macedonia etc.
7. Republika Srpska (Bosnia) need be abolished (NATO says)
8. Last but not least, Serbia World Champion in football U20!
Not looking good. The Empire is going East and don’t need problems behind their backs.
stupid question, but why even bother to enter the EU (#4) ?
Not sure that the majority of the population want to!
The arrests are the trick. It has been played before.
The main goal is to force Serbian governement not to aks Russia to block the British resolution about Srebrenica “genocide”. That is why Oric and Haradinaj are arrested.
The West did the similar trick once before, during Tadic presidency. Then they arrested Croatian general Gotovina in order to get Serbia to extradite general Mladic and Radovan Karadzic. Tadic was stupid enough to do just that. Of course, Gotovina was later found not guilty for crimes against Krajina Serbs, but the main goal was achieved.
Vucic is not much different then Tadic, but this time he risks his power and maybe his life if he doesn t ask Russia to block the anti-Serbian British resolution.
Serbia is boiling under the surface. You could see the real mood in Serbia when young footballers won the World cup a few days ago. The crowd which came to greet them in Belgrade was very huge, and they were singng about retaking Kosovo. Even the footbalers were singing the same. Serbia can errupt at any time soon.
That is why Oric and Haradinaj will never be extradited to Serbia.
I found some links about this resolution, but I couldn’t find anything on the actual text.
When is this vote due? Why now? How will Russia and China vote?
I can see our incompetent politicians falling for this trick again. I hope Putin will vote it down regardless.
Breaking news: Oric is being extradited to Sarajevo! Sarajevo had also filed an extradition request following the Serbian one. Since Oric is a Bosnian citizen and the crimes he is wanted for took place in Bosnia it is the latter that takes precedence over the former. Once he is in Sarajevo he will be released as there he is considered a hero…
And thus ends the chapter on Oric.
do not worry, Putin will vote the resolution down. Regardless of what the morrons in Serbian governement do.
The text of the resolution is extremely anti-Serbian. The word “genocide” is mentioned 35 times in the text, while the word “reconciliation” is mentioned 2 times. What would you expect from the Brits?
When right moment comes serbians will burn kosovo to the ground to revenge all hatred which was used against them under support of ‘modern world’. Its sad but talk with serbians.kosovo or kosmet is historicaly serbian ground, like alamo for americans.
the Alamo, like all of Texas, was Mexican ((and will be again)
Am waiting (a bit impatiently) for the Saker to commission a piece from Texan secessionists.
It’s been a correlative theme to the NovoRussian project for a while.
At present it is nothing.Some talk,but that’s all.With an economic collapse, military defeat,or general uprising in the US.Then and only then would secession be taken seriously by more than a handful of people.
None of them will be extradited & convicted.
That would compromise West’s policy & actions to date that calls for only one (Serb) side to be guilty for all Balkan mess.
If not for Russian support, Donbass Republics would face the same fate as Serbs in ex-Yugoslavia. I hope lesson was learned (by Russia). Stand strong!
Unfortunatelly, what happened in Slovenia with Haradinaj’s arrest is a farce beyond belief. Haradinaj went to threaten and insult Slovenia, while his status was being worked out. Response from Slovenian politicians (PM, FM, …) was – as usual – completely spineless and servile. It gets even better – SDS (right wing opposition party) went to defend Haradinaj (as “respected politician on diplomatic mission”) and filed interpellation against Minister of Interior (kind of funy, bcs. police was doing their job properly). Public opinion in majority is digust with spineless Slovenian government’s response to threats and insults from Haradinaj.
Oh forgot to add – Haradinaj was released to fly to Kosovo very quickly …
When he arrived to Srebrenica, he probably had a power trip. If my memmory serves me correctly, the “Hero” Naser Orić also ran two times from Srebrenica, both times via helicopter. It probably was an UN helicopter .First time during 1993. Second time july 1995 when the city was taken.There are also claims by some Bosniak authors( Ibran Mustafić for example) that during his command Orić’s men also killed 500-1000 Bosniak people who were considered undesireble. Orić also became the black market king during his Srebrenica days. I am not aware about any more about Haradinay that the author has said but I know few things about KLA/UÇK funding and personal and alliance with Nato. Next to drug trafficking and local Albanian diaspora contributions, which everyone is familiar, there was also one very horrid way they raised the funds- human Organ harvesting/trafficking to wealthy West. From the living, taking out a kidney, stiching them up, and then few weeks latter taking the other one. You would be suprised how many organs can be harvested from a human being, I was.They harvested Serb civilians and POW, unloyal Albanian civilians. Albanian mafia developed organ trafficking infrastracure during the early 90-ies, guess whose organs were the most expensive. They also formed special unit, called the Atlantic brigade, made from Albanian volunteers from abroad to spearhead KLA offensive, trained, funded and transported by the U S of A. It had massive NATO air support( there were also reports of US, UK and Norwegein spec ops) during it’s failed attempt to achieve break through in ’99. It was later discovered that NATO used massed UÇK assalts to pin Serb forces, to force them to fi
ght and then destroy them by air strikes and land attrition. About the killed/threatened/bribed witnesses it is nothing unusual. Mafia does it all the times, but in Albania thanks to a clan structure, and the threat of a blood revenge(or a blood feud?not sure) it is much simpler and easier. For example, your clan leader can simply order you to keep quiet and u have to obey. Most clan leader will do this to avoid eternal clan revenge cycle. Or they(KLA) can simply kill you, while your leader avoids revenge to avoid eternal revenge cycle.
Actually Naser Oric and the top commanders had left Srebrenica several WEEKS before the fall. There is a photo with a late April 1995 date showing Oric in Tuzla. Don’t know if he returned to Srebrenica and then left again, but he wasn’t in Srebrenica during the fall – nor were the top commanders.
They had safely been pulled out. This points to the plans to evacuate Srebrenica already being enacted, starting with the top.
Also there’s news that Alexander Dorin, a Swiss writer who wrote a book exposing Srebrenica as a myth and who allegedly has much information on his computer – such as 3,000-4,000 Srebrenica Muslims fled to Serbia and were in refugee camps – has been arrested/kidnapped.
They blew up his door and “were looking for something” and have taken him away. This happened over a week ago:
This is your first post in 12 days. Your following rant about censorship has been removed. If you post politely and on topic, you should have no trouble.
Reply (a question in fact) to Slo:
What will happen to the human beings residing currently in Kosova while Serbs will be burning it to the ground?
Stupid question, stupid answer – if Serbia can support over 1 mio. refugees (has been doing so for some two decades now), why shouldn’t Albania be able to?
And rest assured some of us here doubt that there are many “human beings” left there to begin with. Most peaceful civilians are gone already, as evident on the flood of several hundred thousands refugees from there towards the EU this spring.
So, in a blog where Donbass civilians are protected (rightfully so) by a bloody regime, you advocate that Serbs “burn Kosova to the ground”, and Albania accept the peaceful civilians (those few) because those human beings that you put as “human beings” (my guess would be animals, savages, primitives, etc).
As for stupid, you missed my point, but I digress.
I rest assured of one thing, that you protect your own and to hell with the rest, and that is the end of the discussion.
Exactly. Protect your own and stop invading my country and expelling my people, the original natives. Never forget that most of Kosovo-Albanians are the grandchildren of albanian refugees that we accepted into Yugoslavia in the last 1-2 centuries, let alone all the illegal refugees who swiftly got integrated as ” unregistered natives” over and over again.
And sorry, “peaceful civilians”? Not many of those left, as already mentioned above. This year the rest of Europe registered some 300-400 thousand refugees from Kosovo. Just in Germany it’s over 30000 this year alone, happening as we speak.
Let us compare the numbers in Kosovo: Albainians expelled – zero, Serbs expelled – 250000. It speaks for itself, no need to comment it further.
On a personal note – as far as I am concerned, I’d have moved all the Kosovo Serbs to Serbia and Bosnia and built a big impenetrable wall around Kosovo long time ago. I would even give you all of Kosovo, provided we never see any of you in the rest of Yugoslavia again. All you ever brought us (besides some good bakeries) was the continuation of WW2 nazism, drugs, weapons and human trafficking.
Being you so competent on all fields of discussion, I excuse myself and surrender my armies to you hoping that you’ll be merciful and spare their lives.
Oh and again the question: who do your people flee their new paradise in such huge numbers?
I excused myself, but will give you an answer for your closure. People have no money. With corrupt politicians (bought and paid for), some from West (overwhelmingly) some from East, they CANNOT live because of the lack of money. That’s why they migrate. It’s just as simple as that, and not some conspiracy theory. It’s also because they are Charlies (Hebdo), because the consumerism requires them to have the internets, tablets, facebooks, twitters, and they are subdued just as in feudal times. They have lords and cannot escape the yoke. If you live in the Balkans, you have a master too. I have one. Maybe we have two masters, keepin’ switchin’ between them. I have the will to fight but don’t have somebody to fight for, or someone to fight with. That’s why I keep my fighting spirit alive within myself. At least that I’m not willing to give to them.
It’s the same in Europe where they migrate, too, though I have not lived there. You have masters there but don’t understand it very well, because you are paid well to keep quiet and enjoy your social benefits, and maybe send something home. That’s why you don’t see or hear people screaming for the idiocy of confronting Russia when there are a lot of other problems in Europe and that the stupid EU is hurting them (not those bureaucrats who keep taking their fat salaries) by killing their businesses.
And it’s also the fault of people like yourself that rub their hands and the calamity of their neighbors. If I was Serb, I would be worried if something would be wrong with Albanians, or with whoever my neighbors are. Vice-versa. Same for all people. To prove your point, you gleefully provide some link which I don’t intend to visit, written possibly from some presstitute whore who sells to the highest bidder to maintain their status, and that doesn’t provide deep analysis of core causes of problems.
It is you with your attitude (to hell with my neighbors or all the world) that contribute to the demonizing of all of a people and suffocate any reasonable voice with which you can communicate. You might have issues with Albanians but you don’t solve them fortifying yourself in an ivory tower. I’m not saying to be all kisses and love, just that you do NOT solve anything generalizing things and keeping only your opinion.
You know, small peoples, like whores, have to sleep with one of the gangstas’, it boils down to which one…
Be well in prosperity.
Yeah, you can quote cool sounding phrases really well. Directly tingles the lower emotional centres of some weak-minded people. Trained quite well as it seems, british NLP-style.
If only half of that was real or if you could back it up with any facts… yes, the poverty is universal on the Balkans nowadays, you think Serbs in Serbia do any better? Or Bosnians? Or that whole million of refugees from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo still hanging in Serbia? Still you don’t see them leave in such huge numbers. Thus the conclusion, the actual human beings are mostly leaving or have left already, what’s left is mostly criminals and nazis. Unfortunately for the elderly and those who couldn’t leave yet, but hey – you wanted your country, now live with it and in it. You got what you called for.
I don’t rub my hands in calamity of neighbours (and am not a neighbour either since some two decades), I’m just trying to explain that action always equals the following re-action, that’s as old as Newton. But it’s nice that you don’t even bother to check real facts or given links to REAL documents and articles and instead attack me personally. Very nice style, speaks quite strongly for your integrity.
Also your avoidance of all of my direct questions or any sort of historical references and numbers speaks for itself. You’re full of hot air and cheap recycled propaganda phrases.
I don’t have issues with Albanians personally, but Kosovo as a “state” and the nazi gang that runs it and screams for greater Albania (as witnessed several times lately) are a clear enemy of the normal humanity and must be removed better sooner than later. Also as always it is riddled with criminals like no other place on Earth. Best if Kosovo-Albanians themselves would get fed up and clean the house, but that’s unlikely being that most of those running things there are hardcore nazis and/or criminals of the worst sort.
Shut up with such crap and come up with real facts and numbers if you want to discuss like an adult, then I’ll “be well”. Until then, please spare me with your cheap-novelette-style emotional nonsense for housewives.
I told you I surrendered, didn’t you see the white flag? You won, general! The last reply was complementary. I’m going to shut up and cry all night.
On a tangential note, here’s what happens to 3 Albanian brothers when they moved to the USA: framed for being terrorists:
Here’s what you don’t want to be in the USA:
1. be Black
2. be Muslim
in the future, it could be Russian, Chinese, etc…
Belgrade is the right place for these scums to be judged.
Mafia wars against the state with foregn nations’ support. That is what the Yugoslavian war was.
The author did well documentating the crimes of these bastards. Personally I had never heard of them before.
But he messes history in his article, history that he doesn’t know well. After all history is all messed up in the Balkans, and used for political reasons by default.
Scanderbeg (who albanians worship as a national hero), was a warlord who defended his land. If this coincided with someone else’s interests (first time I hear it) we will never know for sure. This stands for everybody who defended his land ever.
To accomplish this he cooperated with every other available warlord. Warlords from Kossovo and Metohi were amongst his best allies.
Albanian muslim kossovars ancestors’ are (by a small percentage) turks brought there after these warlords lost the war with the sultan and (mainly) residents who converted to islam.
SO THESE GUYS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HE STOOD FOR.
Scanderbeg was Orthodox, he is described by the sources of those times as Princeps Epiriotarium (Prince of Epirus). Epirus today is divided between Greece and Albania. In the albanian part the population is mainly greek, despite long time and brutal albanian effort since the founding of the albanian state. Let alone the communist regime (even Nikita Kruschev complained to his albanian counterpart about the state of the greek minority)
Married in a Greek Monastery (one of the very few monateries left intact by the albanian comunists), the hagiograph of which is Saint Onufrius.
Even today almost 1/3 of the albanian citizens (inlcuding the greek minority) are Orthodox.
I’m not quite so literate as you are on history (I’ll take your word because you seem soooo convincing), but on current affairs it is not true that 1/3 of Albanians are of Orthodox faith. 1/3 means 30 %. The truth is 10 %. So, you lied about 20 %. And being that Catholics account for about 20 % of Albania’s population, you just wiped out the Catholic minority of Albanians from history.
1/3 actually means 33%.
That aside, 1/3 are christians, if that description suits your mood better.
I know an orthodox one and a catholic one, both families fled from Albania to Germany.
the census says 10 the Othodox church 24%. Catholics are no more than 10%.
Harold Nicolson, british diplomat, comparing amateur to professional diplomacy, said that he prefers the professional one because an amateur diplomat might be dispatched to a country against which he has a grudge, because his little George was slapped in the face there, sometime in the past…
In other words, because you happen to know an Orthodox one and a Catholic one, you create an expert opinion?
The point is, if you lie about one thing, why should I believe you in other things?
The other point is it doesn’t matter what mood I’m in, it’s the truthfulness that matters. If you make posts that are not well thought, don’t expect not having a reaction, taking you to task for it. I’m not in for a debate, just a minor discussion. You and some other posters seem to make deductions out of thin air regarding others, based on your prejudices and not on a wider perspective. On a more concrete level, you should concentrate on the deeds of these two individuals, and if the author has truthfulness in his article. From my point of view, however punishable these deeds are (I’m not defending these two individuals, no way), the author doesn’t make a very good work as a writer to convince the reader for his case. All else is politics, depending on which side you are.
The final point would be that of stating that all sides commit atrocities, without exception. If you are an upright person you should condemn first your own, then those of others. Some posters wrote that Serbs have been only massacred, which simply is not true. Everybody has massacred and has been massacred at some point in history, as regards the Balkans. That’s the way it has been and that’s the way it is, and that’s the way THEY have designed it to be, to start Word Wars, etc.
Somebody, somewhere, sometime, has to be sick of it. And say NO.
“lying”, “can’t see the wider perspective” but you’re not so literate in history…
British diplomats are my favourite theme od the day.
The Brittish ambasador in Tirana yesterday declared that corruption in justice is the main obstacle towards EU integration for Albania.
When justice is in that condition, it can be easily assumed what happens with the censuses in Albania… especially when the answers on the questions about religion and ethnicity were not mandatory…
Just check last weekend’s elections in albania. in one place (himara i think) ALL the seals of the election boxes were different from the initial ones. oh and before the elections the prime minister cursed (Yeah!!!) the minoritarian candidate, and in another case threatened to leave entire villages without power supply, if the candidate of his party was not elected.
I don’t have anything against the albanian people, nor the bosniaks and serbs. Specially the muslim albanians are moderate and secularized, but poverty is rapidly fundamentalizing them.
It’s this mafia style nationalism that is existent in all the western balkans.
Milosevic started it when Yugoslavia was under IMF rule. nations started to blame one another for the situation, and he did nothing to control the situation or even encouraged it. And when after 10 years of reccesion, Germany and the IMF offerεd to fund Slovenia separately. Croatia demanded the same things.
And then it began.
Albanian kosovars were not treated differently during the bombing of Yugoslavia. they had their fair share of depleted uranium during the bombings.
But these villains were on the right side of the history… untill now.
And I don’t think that the article is not well documented. I don’t see any flaws.
Just the parallelism (in some ways) of Scanderbeg with these thugs.
But i don’t think this affects the article.
You’re too soft on Albanians. Try this view from an Albanian citizen:
There is corruption everywhere. Justice is a sham. Everything is bought and sold. Just few hours ago had a coffee with an opposition activist friend of mine, he told me the theft of the vote (elections held few days ago) was astounding (we’ll leave it at that and not discuss any further). The current government re-invited IMF, which the previous one had booted. Prices have increased, taxes also. Construction sector is blocked by government, INSTAT (state institute of statistics) figures state 220 construction firms having bankrupted in one year (imagine how many jobs were lost), taxes report a 3.5 times rate of businesses becoming in debt (that continue to operate but don’t have money to pay taxes).
Please don’t mention our primadona, sorry, prime minister, don’t make me write all afternoon…
You mention the British ambassador but the very BIG FAT elephant in the room in Albania is the American ambassador, acting as a viceroy, meddling his nose everywhere and acting as a puppet master (which sadly he is). The American Embassy has become a political Mecca, and there are instances where political pundits even are afraid to mention it by name but refer to it just as “an important embassy”.
I don’t care about censuses, I know the reality and truth of the place I live. There has never, ever, been a religious conflict in Albania. If it was for Albanians, it will never be. Animosities are normal everywhere. Unfortunately, religion can be used from outside, but I bet my neck Albanians will resist it forcefully. It is a religious tolerance that is never, or rarely mentioned. If Albanians have flaws, religious conflict is far from being one of them.
In all, Albania is not that special. Like every country. Where a hidden hand keeps pushing down on people. Look at Serbia, once protesting their bombing by the west now licking west’s arse all day long. Look at Greece, and just read Alexander Mercouris recent articles at Russia Insider. Look at Macedonia, where recent events show what a non-state it is. Somebody who knows about the situation on other Balkan countries might depict a similar painting, with everybody having problems caused from outside (apart from the lack of personal spine).
However, we must cheer up, life is beautiful ;)
I don’t get why so many Albanians support Haradinaj and other KLA who actually kidnapped, tortured and killed other Albanians. The witnesses against them who were killed (or had their family members killed) before or during the trials were all Albanians.
Actually there were many Albanian martyrs who were killed because they got along with Serbs, had a government job, didn’t support the KLA, were falsely believed by the KLA to be “collaborators”, and I believe some were killed by the KLA to frame Serbs.
Also, don’t forget NATO bombed convoys of Albanians who were going back to check on their homes before the bombing was over. NATO also bombed an encampment of Albanians who were sleeping in the open on their way back.
So any Albanian who didn’t agree to the KLA was put in serious jeopardy.
I do feel sorry for all the genuine innocent Albanians who’ve suffered.
All this suffering is because the Balkans’ peoples are pawns of other bigger countries.
Islam is secularised in all former communist countries, as Saker here has argued many times.
Albanians are not special indeed.
But note that the Orthodox Christian population has been declining since the formation of the Albanian state long before the communist regime. Check the link above.
This was not by accident. Orthodox have been the most oppressed throughout the history of the Albanian state.
Most probably because a large proportion of them were and are greek minoritars, who wanted to join Greece (almost managed it a couple of times). In faxt the northern Epirus issue was passed to the UN for arbitrage in 1946, and postponed since then.
Sadly, albanians are trained to think that these villains are in fact heroes of their nations.
It suits the needs of the mobsters, their allies and if it suits their needs then its good enough for the people.
Check out what his muslim leader of Kossovo has the say about Scanderbeg
(Note the during WWII the Germans made a SS division out of these thugs…
Guess how they named it.
Good comment about pawns. Milosevic was one impressive pawn indeed (with NY banking pedigree too), who led the Serbs into one of their greatest tragedies ever (he lead and the Serbs followed). I will be objective and say that Bosniak politicians were pawns too (perhaps with not much of a pedigree, but pawns nonetheless :)). At first the West recognized independent Bosnia and then imposed an arms embargo against (effectively only) Bosniaks. Perhaps to see how they will fare against 1,000+ tanks which Serbs had at their disposal at the time. :)
Anyhow, I do not know what purpose this article serves other than that it continues to instigate and prolong the self-pitying and self-validating tendencies which many Serbs are prone to (these extend all the way to their defeat to Ottomans back in 1399 btw). For the past 100+ years these tendencies have given the Serbs (a rock solid) excuse to commit atrocities against their Bosniak/muslim neighbors (whom Serbs equate to Turks btw and vent their anger on every 40-50 years). This has been the history of my own family. My grandfather barely escaped the Chetniks in the 2nd WW. He did not try to run away this time round. They came to his house one night in the winter of 1993 (among them some of his neighbors) and killed him. He was 86 years old. He never killed anyone. His wife, my grandmother, was so badly beaten in the head that one of her eyes popped out from the severity of the blows. They probably left her thinking she was dead too.
My wife’s family fared even worse. Her grandmother’s brothers and their entiry families were collected at a house near Foca and burned alive (her grandmother lived because she ran away, just as she did in the 2nd WW). And you can ask around in other families how they fared (i.e. do research) and you will come to the conclusion that the killings, rape, expulsions, torture, destruction of mosques (614 were destroyed….these were not random revenge acts, these were the results of a planned policy to literately cleanse the holly Serb land from the Turks.
With regards to Srebrenica, lets be objective and understand at least that Srebrenica was under siege with tens of thousands refugees from surrounding towns and villages who ran for their lives (ran from whom?) and found refuge in Srebrenica. So put yourself for a moment in their shoes. It is a winter time. You and your children have had nothing to eat for days. What would you do? By saying this I am not trying to excuse those who murdered elderly, women and children (if there were those who committed such acts of evil they definitely deserve to be punished….for those of you who believe in God, you know that they will eventually receive their fair share). But mano a mano (oh boy)…
Anyways, lesson for the Serbs (and you ought to heed this lesson for your scriptures oblige you to do so) don’t you turn on your neighbors ever again.
General lesson for all of us in the Balkans, let us be a tad wiser and try to see through the greater scheme of things. At least let us not be obedient pawns any more.
Look at the “impartial” Omer & his CNN-version comment:)!
I was going to say that the Hague inquisition justified Oric’s thugs & their bloody orgies in Serbian villages around Srebrenica by reducing them to “searching for food” despite convoys & convoys of food & supplies delivered by the UNProFor regularly, but he was quicker to bring that “argument” out:).
One might wonder at the extreme cynicism of that zionazi inquisition so-called court, but the reality will keep proving him wrong.
Poor Omer’s family didn’t evade the “chetniks” even during the WWII, you know, when a large number of otherwise “peaceful” Muslims played the role of “Croatian flowers” by doing exactly what Omer is accusing their very victims of, the evil Serbs. What that meant was proving to their Croatian overlords, the ustashas, that they themselves are better “ustashas”.
As a result, the Serbian majority in Bosnia before WWII (which was a part of the Independent State of Croatia, a Nazi protectorate) “magically” became a minority after the war, with some parts of Bosnia so cleansed out of Serbs that there were no military recruits available for over 20 years afterwards.
It was genocide, pure & simple, but the f-ing communists swept everything under the rug.
Omers of this world aren’t obviously happy with the results of their last attempt to finish what they’d started in WWII in Bosnia, unlike the “civilized” Croatia, where the Pavelic’s dream of ethnically pure state finally came about, crowned with their acceptance to the EU.
The Albanian thugs from the occupied Kosovo are working on their version of the “final solution” as well, and with the extensive NATO help, they are closer & closer to that goal of being rewarded for their fateful alliance with Hitler during the obviously unfinished WWII.
needless to say, an identical process is going on now in the Ukraine. Their “Orics” & “Haradinajs” are enjoying the same level of protection from their zionazi handlers. Nothing new in the West, one would say…
He obviously does not “know” that the “Grand Mufti of Jerusalem” Al-Husseini was located in Bosnia in WW2 and coordinated the world jihadist effort from there, along with the bonian Hnadjar-SS division.
Would you guess, he was saved by the british when the situation got too hot for him.
Here he is greeting the bosnian “Handjar” officers, original photo as reprinted in bosnian “Svijet” 1997:
A protocol of the meeting between the mufti and Hitler:
Official dutch report on how the US armed, imported and nurtured the islamists in Bosnia:
Further reading, even one Bin Laden got a bosnian passport back then among other things:
Sorry dude, but this is a bunch of cheap propaganda here. It’s all either pure fantasy or severely twisted. Serbs never committed any massive or organized atrocities against any folk, ever. In the contrary, bosnian moslems and Albanians were always the first to join any invading force (Turks, Austrians, Italians, Germans,…) and to commit genocide big-style on Serbs. The numbers of dead or relocated civilians speak for themselves too.
The crimes of the muslim SS-brigade Handjar in WW2 were thoroughly documented and well known. Your nonsense about some invented “chetniks” in Bosnia are beyond laughable to anyone even barely informed about the actual historical reality.
Just a little taste here, directly from your own press: http://emperors-clothes.com/bosnia/svijet.htm
Oh and one more, Serbs don’t call you “Turks”, Turks are a legitimate and respected folk. We call you “poturice”, which is a derogatory designation reserved for domestic traitors and bootlickers only.
It really isn’t right to only tell half the story.
The former Yugoslavia has a long tragic history.The “Yugoslav Wars of the 90’s was only the smallest part of it.I’ll leave out Slovenia and Macedonia,those would need a book for each of them.But the Serbo-Croatian areas I’ll post on.Mainly it is a condensed overview.
With the barbarian invasions of that area the populations there were devastated (a huge plague had weakened the numbers shortly before).Many if not most of the peoples fled either to the mountains or the coastal cities.After the Goths,Huns,and Avars had savaged the lands, there were few of the Latinized original population left.Large tribes of Slavs moved into the areas (Croats and Serbs among them).Over the centuries they assimilated,and intermarried with most of the leavings of the original population.Depending what area and numbers they were in, accounts for DNA showing some areas more or less Slav in ancestry.But the Slav language and culture assimilated the huge majority of the remaining peoples in those lands.
In those days (before the Schism) the Christian faith was one.And the only difference was which Patriarchy governed their local churches.In the North and Coastal areas mostly came under Rome.While the South and hinterland of the coast fell under Constantinople.So that was the beginnings of the great long lasting Croat/Serb controversy.As time passed and the Croats and Serbs acquired Kingdoms of their own.The Croats became known as Latin Catholics and the Serbs as Orthodox.In the beginning most of the Slavs that settled (or/and assimilated people) in Southern Dalmatia were considered as Serbs.But as they came to be Latin Catholic they then were considered “Croats”.The area we know as Bosnia (minus a small area in the North that was part of Historic Croatia) was also settled by tribes considered by historians as “Serbian”.Bosnia though is very mountainous,and the original Latinized population was more numerous there than in some other areas.And though they in time were assimilated,it took longer than in some areas.During one of the numerous break-ups of “Serbia” in the middle ages Bosnia was split into different parts and the area came under rulers of Latin Catholic faith.The area was a backwater in those days.And so there were few Priests of any faith there.So really,the population couldn’t be claimed truthfully by either faith at the time.Croatia for a short time (historically short) formed its own Kingdom and claimed Bosnia.While Serbia had fallen under the Bulgarian Empire and later the Byzantine Empire for a time .Then gained independence and formed their own Kingdom.They had too much to worry about to worry over Bosnia for a few centuries.But theoretically they also claimed the area as “Serb” lands.Croatia fell under Hungarian rule rather quickly (a dynastic union,similar to the old Scotland and England union).And the Hungarians (the great power of the era) appointed governors to rule Bosnia,and then ignored her.At various times those governors (Bans) declared independence and played Hungary and Serbia against each other to keep themselves in power.A basic rule of thumb was,when Hungary or Serbia was strong,Bosnia contracted in size.And when they were weak,Bosnia expanded in size.Had everything gone on as before. Sooner or later the region would have worked out their history as most of Europe did.But then a large boulder landed in the middle of the puddle,the Ottoman Empire.
After destroying and conquering the Byzantine Empire and all the lands to the South of Serbia,they arrived at Serbia’s door.By then Serbia was at one of her low points.The Kingdom was split between several great lordly families.And with little unity among them.The Serb armies were defeated at “Kosovo polje” and much of her nobility killed.If the Ottomans hadn’t had to fight Tamerlane shortly after, all Serbia would have fallen then.But the Ottoman defeat against Tamerlane gave them a few more years of “semi-independence”,wasted in futile squabbles for power.And allowed Bosnia a few more years of independence under a Kingdom of their own.Which they wasted with their nobles fighting among themselves and intriguing with the Ottomans and Hungarians to make themselves King.The Hungarians were too weak to help them,and after the Ottomans finished off Serbia.Bosnia’s time ran out.The King was killed along with some other nobles.Some fled to Hungary.But most surrendered and pledged loyalty to the Ottomans.And other the years many people in Bosnia converted to Islam.There were actually only a small number of Ottoman Turks over the years that immigrated to that region.And a small number that intermarried with the Bosnians.Most of today’s “Bosniaks” or the descendants of the Slavic (and assimilated original ) population of Bosnia.A fact easy to confirm just by looking at them,seeing family names,and studying their language (which is Serbo-Croatian).
I’ll leave off a few centuries and continue at the 20th Century.At the start of that Century Croatia was still united with Hungary (and Hungary with Austria in the “Austro-Hungarian” Empire.By then the Hungarians were not well liked in Croatia.And were trying to enforce “Hungarization” on Croatia (without much success).The centuries of Ottoman Wars in the region had seen vast displacements of population.Many areas of Croatia were depopulated in the wars and repopulated by Serbs fleeing Ottoman Rule in Serbia.The Hapsburg rulers of Croatia encouraged them to come and settle those lands to defend them from Ottoman attack (the Serbs were renowned fighters even then).So around a quarter of Croatia’s population at that time was of Serb ancestry.There was a great deal of thinking in Croatian intellectual circles about a “South Slav” union with Serbia (with or without the Hapsburg’s as rulers).Bosnia by then had fallen under Hapsburg rule as well.There had been several revolts in the last century against the Ottomans.And the Austro-Hungarians had occupied Bosnia to bring “order” (as well as they feared Bosnia would unite with Serbia if they didn’t get it first).By that time Bosnia’s population was 43.49% Serb,22.87 Croat,and 32.25% Bosniak in the Austro-Hungarian Census of 1910.And there were many (including some Bosniaks.One of Princips fellow assassins was Bosniak) that wanted union with Serbia.Both Serbia and Montenegro (an ethnic Serb region) had revolted countless times against Ottoman rule over the centuries and were both independent Kingdoms at that time.Pro-Serbian nationalism was rampant in both those countries.And many also agreed with the Croats in wanting a “Yugoslav union” between them.While others only wanted to unite the ethnic Serbian regions in the Balkans.When the Austro-Hungarian heir was killed by Serbian nationalists.Austria-Hungary invaded Serbia,and WWI broke out.During that war ethnic Serbs throughout Austro-Hungarian areas were oppressed horribly and many were killed.Serbia was occupied,and many massacres were committed on the Serb population.Around a million Serbs (close to 1/4 of the population of the day) were killed in that war.With some of the worse killers being Bosniak and Croatian “South Slav brothers” as part of the Austro-Hungarian armies.After the war a united “Yugoslav” (South Slav) state was formed.Most Croats and Bosnians wanted that at the time.It freed them from foreign rule.And for the Croats it saved their country from being carved up by Italy.Who demanded Dalmatia and some other areas as war booty from Austria-Hungary.But the marriage had its enemies as well.Some Serbs thought they should have only united the ethnic Serb areas.And some Croats were arrogant and thought of themselves as “superior” Western Latin Catholics “forced” to unite with “backward Orientals”,and with an Orthodox King to boot.While many Bosniaks were upset with the land reform law that the government introduced.Prior to that law much of the farm lands belonged to large landowners,with the peasants working it as “share-croppers”.Most of the large landowners were Bosniak and a great many of the peasants were Serb.So though poor Bosniak peasants received land as well.Much of the land went to poor Serb peasants.The King to stop the unrest in those days established a dictatorship to try and “denationalize” the country and enforce unity.It wasn’t very successful.Not helped by the interference by foreign anti-Yugoslav neighbors (mainly Italy under Mussolini).He funded a Croat group called the Ustase,( sounds familiar doesn’t it) a group that even makes Ukraine’s Right Sector look good in comparison.They spread terror whenever possible in Yugoslavia.And even murdered the King while he was on a state visit to France.
With the start of WWII Hitler’s Germany thought they had Yugoslavia as an ally.The new young King was still a youth.And his guardian was considered pro-German.But the military staged a coup.Declared the King of age to rule.But also told the Germans they would honor their treaties with Germany.Hitler hated the Serb’s as bad or worse than Russians or Poles (he blamed them for the break-up of his homeland of Austria-Hungary).And he ordered his army to crush Yugoslavia.The time that took deducted the time he had for his invasion of the USSR.Causing that to fall short before the winter came to Russia.Many believe it helped save the USSR from defeat in the early stages of the nazi invasion. By that time the Bosnian population was around 44.25% Serb,23.58% Croat,and 30.9% Bosniak. Hitler created a “Greater Croatia” giving Croatia Bosnia.Many Bosniaks sided with the Ustase Croats during the war.The Ustase plan for the “new” Croatia was simple.Kill,drive out,or convert to Latin Catholicism (thus making them “Croats”) all the Serbs in that land.They and their Bosniak helpers went at it with a vengeance.They slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Serbs and thousands of Jews as well (had to make the nazis happy).They also killed any Croat or Bosniak that opposed them or tried to save Serbs.They had a great deal of support from the religious leaders in Croatia and Bosnia as well.That is one of the least exposed details of that time.How many of those clergymen sided with the murderers.Yugoslavia suffered the third worse of any country under nazi attack and rule during the war.Only Russia and Poland had more dead among their populations.And the vast majority of those were Serbs.Croat and Bosniak death squads went house to house in many villages slaughtering every Serb they found.Similar to the Volyn massacre of Poles by the Bandera during the war,only much larger.Estimates are 1.5 million died in Yugoslavia during the war.In Bosnia official figures show 72.1% of the killed were Serb,4.4% Croat,and 16.5% Bosniak. As well as over a hundred thousand Serbs fleeing to escape the slaughters.That is what Serbs remembered a generation later when once again anti-Serb governments took power in Croatia and Bosnia.Some in those governments praising the Ustase as having been their role models.It is that history needs to be understood when considering actions taken by the different groups during the 1990’s.The evil shadow of WWII was still around to cover that land.Just as in Russia.There were few Serbs that didn’t remember,mothers,fathers,aunts,uncles,brothers,and sisters,cousins.That were butchered by their non-Serb fellow citizens a generation before then.
Bosnians were a bit different folk in the middle ages, the church was Bogumil (gnostics like Cathars) and they were independent of both Serbs and Croats, though made of mostly the same genetic stock. All of them intermixed with the natives, which still make the biggest part of the genetics there (Illyrs and Awars mostly).
So in the end, it was actually “converted natives vs. converted natives vs. converted natives” there since centuries. Sad but true.
The Bogomils came from Bulgaria…
From what I know they didn’t “come” from anywhere, but the religion reached both Bulgaria and Bosnia in whatever order. The tale in Bosnia is that one of the apostles went there himself (can’t remember which) and started the church. It doesn’t say if he came from or passed through Bulgaria first, but it doesn’t matter. The countries and folks were not that clearly defined and not so far apart back then and Bugarians are close genetic cousins anyway.
What does matter is that all their writings in Bosnia were destroyed and almost nothing is left of it except for the many dolmens, mostly in bad shape. I wonder if they preserved more in Bulgaria, are there any texts or documents left?
There is a theory that the movement in Bulgaria was from Eastern Anatolian immigrants at first (the Empire moved people to underpopulated areas).That it was part of the Iconoclast Heresy.The Eastern part of the Empire was the center of that movement.And many people there supported it.When it was outlawed the movement’s supporters “went underground” and continued it in areas they moved to.Bulgaria newly reclaimed by Byzantium and with a mixed population, and newly Christian population would have susceptible to different heresies taking hold at that time.From there,and under persecution,”missionaries” brought that movement to another backward,mountainous, newly Christianized Slavic area,Bosnia.Where it also became popular.But at no time was it the majority of people.It was mostly rural,and small village areas where it was most popular.Some of the nobility picked it up.But as soon as the Latin Catholic Church in control there attacked it, most of the nobility dropped it.Or practiced in only secretly.
Proving my point with the same people, as a Yugoslav/Bosnian, I can read that page without much problems and understand almost all of it. It’s like the medieval Bosnian/Serbian language, even more so than the current dialect spoken there.
We got corrupted via the austrian agent Vuk Karadzic who severely disfigured our alphabet and our language (and is still being hailed as some reformator or almost a saint by the unknowing, propaganda-damaged masses).
I agree with most of what you are saying.
I am myself a great believer in two things:
1. We (the Balkan people(s)) need to deal with our past ourselves
2. We need to open all our channels of communication and respect for each other and live in the Balkans as neighbours, business partners, brothers and sisters, friends… and I don’t care what you call it but ‘live’.
The sad part of it is that we talk about it from somewhere away from the Balkans and in English! The very language (and politics) that gave us the term and concept: to balkanise / divide (a region or body) into smaller mutually hostile states or groups (Oxford dic.)
Please, note that from the perspective of the people(s) of the Balkans we are being / were ‘balkanised’ — passive voice! A political manipulation, not an inherent characteristic of the local populace.
Regarding Vuk Kardzic as an Austrian agent.
I heard similar argument but regarding Đura Daničić. Could you elaborate on Vuk as Austrian agent?
One could argue that Karadjordje was a Russian spy and kum Vujica a loyal Serb?
“After unsuccessful attempts to enroll in the gymnasium at Sremski Karlovci, for which 19 year-old Karadžić was too old, Karadžić left for Petrinja where he spent a few months learning Latin and German. Later on, he left for Belgrade in order to meet the highly respected scholar Dositej Obradović, and ask him to support his studies. Unfortunately, Obradović dismissed him.”
“In 1813, when the Turks again conquered Serbia, Karadžić fled to Vienna. It was shortly after his move to Austria that Karadžić attracted the attention of Jernej Kopitar, an Austrian censor, by submitting an article written in the Serbian popular language. Kopitar became Karadžić’s friend, advisor, and supporter; not only did he praise and publicize Karadžić’s work but he also suggested directions for future scholarship. In 1814, Karadžić published his first collection of folksongs and a grammar to help readers understand his materials. Based on the positive response to these two works, Karadžić published another volume of folksongs the following year. In 1818 Karadžić traveled to Russia to seek intellectual and financial support for his research and writings, and then returned to Serbia to gather additional material for the second and third volumes of an enlarged, four-volume collection of folksongs. In 1823, Karadžić visited Jacob Grimm, who had written a positive review of the third volume of the folksongs, and who introduced him to Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.”
“war aktiv am ersten serbischen Aufstand (1804-1813) beteiligt und lebte nach dessen Scheitern vorwiegend in Wien.”
“he served his country during the first Serbian uprising against the Turks (1804–13). At the collapse of the uprising he left Serbia, but, instead of following Karadjordje and other leaders to Russia, he went to Vienna. There he was introduced to Slavic scholarship by Bartholomäus Kopitar, a government official and scholar from Slovenia, and was encouraged to collect poems and folk songs and to write a grammar of the popular Serbian language and a dictionary.”
” Njegovo školovanje egzistenciju sve je pokrivao Beč i delom Mihajlo Obrenović. Obzirom da je vladavina Obrenovića takođe zavisila od Beča može se reći da je Đura Daničić Bečki kadar u životu Srbije. Stoga je morao da podrži Vukov reformisani jezik koji je takođe bio plaćen austrijskim parama. Kada je Vuk Karadžić došao u Beč, nakon Prvog srpskog ustanka 1813. , napisao je knjigu o propasti tog ustanka. Vuk je stalno moljakao sve koje je poznavao za pare i prosjačio. Prosjačkog mentaliteta, molio je Jerneja Kopitara da mu je objavi knjigu. Jernej to nije odmah učinio ali je zavrbovao Vuka Karadžića, pa mu je već naredne godine objavio knjigu. Jernej je svako popodne provodio sa Vukom, učeći ga kako treba da reformiše srpski jezik. Slovenac Jernej Kopitar, Vukov mentor, kao redaktor slovenske rubrike u Wiener allgemeine Zeitung-u pozvao je Vuka Karadžića „k recenziranju slovenskih knjiga“. Vuk se nudio da služi Beču i Kopitar, kao cenzor slovenskih knjiga u bečkoj biblioteci, tu šansu nije ispustio. Suština Jernejevog delovanja može se spoznati u sledećem događaju. Codex Suprasliensis je crkvenoslovenski ćirilični spis iz 10. veka koji je poljak Mihalj Bobrovski(Michał Bobrowski) 1838, poslao Kopitaru na prevođenje. O važnosti tog spisa u pravoslavnom svetu ne treba govoriti. Jernej je kodeks preveo a deo kodeksa sakrio i nikad ga nije vratio Mihalju Bobrovskom u Poljsku. Zašto je to uradio, to niko ne zna. Neki ga pravdaju da je umro pa nije stigao ali Jernej je umro šest godina kasnije. Izgleda da je pravi Jernejev posao bio da gubi važna staroslovenska dokumenta. Ko zna koliko je važnih ćiriličnih dokumenata izgubio?Uloga Jerneja Kopitara u stvaranju transnacionalne mreže slavističara i Josipa Dobrovskog češkog jezuite „oca slavistike“ u cepanju srpsko-slovenskog jezika širom evrope još nije detaljno istražena”
And more controversial stuff like this, but it does provide additional info: http://www.jezik.rs.sr/doc/MiloslavSamardzic-TajneVukoveReforme.pdf
Orić has been delivered to Sarajevo and set free:
Quod erat demonstrandum, as we said,
‘All victims are the same’, ‘The UK is submitting to the UN a doc for reconciliation…’
And the rest of the smokescreen bullshit.
Where is Hajradinaj?
Let me guess…
Flatus in silva! Google the same case for former commanders of the last Balkan wars. Both nations learned their lesson well. The Serbs will not be trusted by IP any more and thus pay a big price for such “jokes”, like the ones played to Haradinaj and Oric.
Interpol is the joke here.
Call it what you want, whenever you want it, it doesn’t change anything at all…
Maybe. But not because the Serbs were playing some kind of “joke” on Haradinaj and Oric as you claim.
Oric is on record bragging of some of his atrocities.
There are survivors who also witnessed other atrocities committed by him and his men from Srebrenica.
Nine of the ten Albanian witnesses for the prosecution of Haradinaj at the Hague were murdered before they could testify.
The only survivor refused to give testimony.
Interpol would be well aware of this.
They would also be aware that Haradinaj and others prominent in the Albanian leadership in Kosovo are at the top of a network responsible for around 80% of Europe’s heroin traffic and about the same proportion of Europe’s sex slave traffic.
It has long been obvious to everyone ( including yourself probably ) that these two mass murderers enjoy the protection of the USA.
That is why they were released.
Accusing Serbs in this case of playing some kind of joke on two innocent men or on Interpol would have been disingenuous ten years ago.
Today it’s almost pathetic.
Things do change . .
Look, as far as it’s aboout those two cons, they were somehow judged and did their time – if it was long and just enough is not the question here. Serbia still wants them, right. So what happens is not that IP is playing the “Lovecard” concerning Serbs, but the Serbs with their strong lobby outside Serbia file a request for extradition. As soon as they try to board a plane, they get arrested.
Now, as I said, the two nations – in this case Bosnia/Kosovo-Albania learned their lessons. Google it, many ex-cons or “never-judged-but-100percent-guilty” from the Balkanwars were cought the same way, without any positive results for the Serb side, hence the prank-call-IP thesis of me. That’s why I think one day some “head” inside IP will say “Nay” when it comes to a real big fish!
It’s not accusing, it’s following a pattern, that for some reasons until today, the Serbs think might work out for them….one definition of madness was, trying the same thing over and over expecting different results! We have a Bingo…
Btw, I’m somehow confused by this article, maybe someone might explain few things to me…
1) Did he really blame Oric for the destruction of Zvornik, Vlasenica…? I hope I’ve misunderstood this! Oric might be a really bad guy, but c’mon, we can’t blame him for literally everything.
2) Even if he did it, why and how was it possible? And why should he destroy cities with an absolute majority (I’m talking over 50% with the numbers I have) of Muslim population?
3) If the author claims that only a Belgrade trial is going to bring peace, does he support also a Sarajevo/Zagreb/Prishtina trial for every other “bad guy” from different sides? Or is he alluding that only Serbs can bring justice to others while others have no right to bring justice to Serbs?
4) Isn’t he a little bit exaggerating about “Europe being blown up”? Many things have happened since the end of the Balkanwars, nothing blew up….
Maybe the Serbs would settle for an international court that has fixed rules of evidence and procedure that do not change on the basis of nationality or ethnicity or as needed to reach predetermined outcomes like at the ICTY?
Zagreb has already put Serbs on trial for war crimes as has Sarajevo.
The Serb province of Kosovo it is not recognised as an independent country at the UN and therefore officially is still a part of Serbia.
The capital of Serbia is Belgrade not Pristina.
“Maybe the Serbs would settle” was the single part of a sentence in your answer that related to my questions…sorry dude, I’m still confused. I wasn’t asking for the obvious btw (Prishtina-Belgrade capital, trials in Zagreb and Sarajevo etc.)
Your question, “does he support also a Sarajevo/Zagreb/Prishtina trial for every other “bad guy” from different sides ” seemed to imply that Sarajevo and Zagreb do not already hold such trials when in fact they do.
It also implies Pristina is equal in status to Sarajevo and Zagreb when it is not.
My apologies if you are already aware of those facts.
”A UN Security Council resolution would contribute to healing the wounds in the Balkans still plagued by the memories of the bloody wars in the 1990s if it condemns Western powers for their part in Yugoslavia’s breakdown along with war crimes, Serbian politician Vladimir Krsljanin said.
“Not a single atrocity on the territory of former Yugoslavia in 1991-1999 and later on the lands occupied by NATO was committed without the British and other Western security services playing a key role,” Krsljanin of the People’s Movement of Serbia said in an article.
The remarks came after Britain decided to draft a UNSC resolution to mark the 20th anniversary of the 1995 Srebrenica massacre in Bosnia, which saw approximately 8,000 Muslim men and boys killed. Serbia is against the document saying it would only cause “tension, friction and further destabilize” the Balkans.
“The only resolution capable of making things better in the region … should condemn all war crimes and their perpetrators, as well as commemorate the innocent victims. It should also decry unlawful policies of the Western countries, which led to the breakup of Yugoslavia with the help of NATO, secret services, the Hague Tribunal, terrorism, drug traffickers, national and religious extremists of every stripe and color,” Krsljanin pointed out.
Such a document would surely be vetoed by Britain, France and the United States, the politician added.”