It is truly a HUGE pleasure for me to present you today with the first part of an interview I did with the Islamic scholar Sheikh Imran Hosein. It is a pleasure because Sheikh Imran has agreed to reply to my questions in a video rather than a text, and I think that seeing him speak is a much more powerful experience than just reading his replies in a text. Second, I believe that the importance of various issues addressed in our exchange cannot be overstated.
But I also feel pretty bad. Here is why:
Because of my strong belief that prejudices must be tackled frontally rather than buried deep under the pretext of courtesy, I chose to formulate certain questions in an openly hostile and challenging way. It had to be done so in order to avoid the accusation that I was giving the Sheikh only easy questions. Still, I want to share with you what I wrote to the Sheikh to explain my tone and questions:
Salam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu, ya Sheikh,
Before I begin my letter of questions to you, I would like to express to you my deepest gratitude for all the efforts you have made towards making an alliance between Orthodox Christians – Romans – and Muslims a reality. I understand that you have accepted to reply to my questions in the context of this unceasing labor of yours and I thank you for the opportunity to ask you a number of important questions. I also have to ask you to please forgive me the nature of some of the questions I will be asking you, as I will be asking them not only in my personal name, but also in the name of many others who might not share my views of history or who might disagree with my opinions. And, just as in the Muslim world there are those who are suspicious of Christians in general, and Orthodox Christians in particular (especially Russian ones), it will not be a surprise to you that there are many Orthodox Christians who, for political and historical reasons, view Islam with a great deal of suspicion. Rather then bury these facts, I think that you will agree with me for the need to bring them up, shine and strong light on them and publicly deal with them. Thus, some of my questions will sound accusatory and judgmental, for which I ask you forgiveness in advance.
Now here are my questions for you. Again, please forgive me if they are offensive and “loaded” (I am very much aware of the fact that they are), and I assure you that I submit them with the sole intention of “clearing the air” once and for all.
I would like to add the following here: in his patient, kind and direct replies Sheikh Imran has set a new standard as to who real, meaningful, inter-religious dialog ought to be conducted. Instead of the vapid “Ecumenical dialog of love” and the minimalist theological quest for the smallest common denominator in the respective theologies of Islam and Christianity, I feel that my dialog with Sheikh Imran will serve to “clear the air” between our two traditions.
I just hope that Orthodox Christians will be able to reciprocate in kind and address the numerous reservations Muslims have about Orthodox Christianity, especially Russian Orthodoxy. The Russian journalist Maksim Shevchenko has done a lot in this regard, but I am still waiting for an Orthodox bishop to candidly address the concerns and doubts of Muslims.
Though I do not yet know yet what Sheikh Imran will reply to this, I want to warn everybody that one of my questions (the 7th one) will try to address this issue. Here it is: “Having submitted the questions above to you, I now feel that I need to ask you: what are the main historical grievances of Muslims towards Orthodox Christians or the main events in Russian history when Muslims have felt that Orthodox Christians or Orthodox rulers have wronged Muslims, persecuted Islam or otherwise acted sinfully against our Muslim neighbors? In other words, what are the main reasons for the Muslim distrust of Orthodox Christians?“
Again, the very least we, Orthodox Christians, can do having had the opportunity to voice our doubts and fears and having received a reply from a Muslim scholar, is to listen to our Muslim neighbors and address their doubts and fears with the same level of honesty.
I felt that I had to clarify all of the above before posting the first part of this interview.
One more thing: I need volunteers to make a transcript of this and the subsequent videos and I need volunteers to translate and subtitle these videos in as many languages as possible. If you can help, please email me at either [email protected] or [email protected].
I don’t quite know how to say this without offending nearly every believer in an organized religion.
It’s my observation that members of organized religion have by their actions been the primary curse of humanity since at least the dawn of history. Specifically, wanton violence at all levels (from God on down), torture, oppression (particularly of women), and a complete disregard for (and destruction of) the natural world.
In my view, nationalism ranks second as a curse, exhibiting the same characteristics, and often combined with religion with devastating results (Nazism and American exceptionalism spring to mind).
To a large degree, the invention of God, Satan, rigid belief systems, etc., is an attempt to recapture the integration human species once felt as a part of nature. That all changed when humans underwent the agricultural revolution 40,000 or so years ago, when nature (along with women) became viewed as the property of men, given to them (or by extension their tribe) by God etc.
@Vietnam Vet:It’s my observation that members of organized religion have by their actions been the primary curse of humanity since at least the dawn of history.
This observation, whether true or not, needs much more elaboration.
First correlation and causality are different things. When people say that Marijuana is a “gateway drug” to other drugs because the vast majority of those who use hard drugs began with Marijuana, I always reply that Coca-Cola and jeans are clearly a “gateway drug” because the vast majority of those who use hard drugs also began by drinking Coca-Cola and wearing jeans :-) Seriously, any scientist will tell you that your thesis needs a control group and you need to isolate all the factors affecting your model. At the very least, you need to prove that non-religious humans do better, but a quick look at the 20th century will make that very very hard to prove.
Second, you are lumping all religious into one. That is indefensible logically. To make such a generalization would require a HUGE amount of research and numerous demonstrations. Even Richard Dawkins had not time (or intellectual honesty) to do that.
Third, you need to look at whether crimes and atrocities committed in the name of a religion are in line with the key teachings of that religion or not. Because without that analysis you will never be able to distinguish the “human factor” (humans commit crimes and atrocities) and the religious factor.
All this is to say that your comment does not offend me in the last based, as it is, on a complete lack of substantiation. I have heard these arguments all my life, and one more sure does not shock me. This is par for the course in a post-Christian secularized materialistic society like the one we live in. In fact, I would expect no less :-)
If you want an honest appraisal of radical violent Christianity, you need to read Igor Shafarevich’s book http://shafarevich.voskres.ru/СОЦИАЛИЗМ КАК ЯВЛЕНИЕ МИРОВОЙ ИСТОРИИ knows how Christianity has been abused for centuries. The reason being that Christians may or may not follow Christ’s teaching. Other reports and histories may give one quite the opposite impression.
I am of your generation and do not totally disagree with what you say but I do believe you say it in the wrong way. It is as if what started this thread went right over your head. Every religion has it’s “true believers” and this Sheikh (like the Saker has many times here) has shown himself to be one of them.
As a non-believer in the hostile territory of the American south I will put it simply, I would rather be neighbors with Gandhi or Sheikh Hosein or an American Quaker or the Tolstoy of “The Kingdom of God is within You” or a member of certain Orthodox Jewish sects than what I am surrounded by. We non-believers have to rise to the level of the “true believers”, would Gandhi put it as you have? Read Joseph Atwill.
“my observation that members of organized religion have by their actions been the primary curse of humanity since at least the dawn of history. ”
corollary: members of organized religion have been the primary blessing of humanity since at least the dawn of history.
Every society, every civilization was set up with mass religion as its bedrock. All the great achievement were done by individuals THANKS to the societies and civilizations of their time.
You are born at the end of centuries of European civilization that rose and declined and now in the winter of its life slowly decaying and yet you see fit to sit on judgement on all those people gone before you while you benefit from their achievements and lifeworks…. you must be one _special_ individual who _believes_ the whole world exist for him to _pontificate_ about how other people (the majority of the world) think….
a typical example of the arrogance of ignorance and complete and utter uselessness….
I totally agree with this…I don’t think he’s being intolerant…he’s defending a good argument. Thanks HistoryVet…its a good fight.
A huge obstacle on the way to spirituality is the obstinate refusal (or just incapacity) of some people to outgrow adolescence. It is during adolescence that the deeply entrenched belief that the ideas and attitudes instilled in their brains during this phase of rebellion against parents and other figures of authority are really the product of their observation and elaboration, is acquired. The Western religion of the “I, Me, Mine, My Way, Nobody tells MEE what to believe”, contributes heavily to arrest the development out of adolescence. They remain mentally and emotionally adolescents and not really capable of making sense of the world around them. Semi-education and semi-literacy (“32 million adults in the U.S. can’t read. That’s 14 percent of the population. 21 percent of adults in the U.S. read below a 5th grade level, and 19 percent of high school graduates can’t read”) are aggravating factors.
I agree with this too. And its because of the Western so-called Christianity that the Shelk is talking about that education is so poor now. I met a guy a month or two ago…actually a Native American, who is 18 and can’t read. He went to white man’s schools his whole life. Who’s fault is it that he can’t read ? He can’t even get a driver’s license.
not to argue the point that the educational system is very inadequate in many areas of the US, as it obviously is, but this young man sounds like someone with an unidentified learning disability, such as dyslexia.
Your observation does not really match reality. You need to look again. The greatest destruction and suffering in human history has been caused by wars. Wars are only very rarely the product of religion. They are mostly the product of political and economic imperialism. Religion had little to do with the destruction of the native American population, the enslavement of Africans, the European colonization of the world and present day neocolonialism. Let alone the first and second world wars, which were by far the most devastating orgies of killing that the world has ever seen. If today the world succumbs to nuclear destruction, it will not be because of religion, but rather the efforts of the irreligious West to maintain its global political and economic hegemony.
Take another look at history.
well said! and the same group is in fact attempting to alienate the masses from their spiritual heritage. it is anti-religion, really. there is at least one UN document in which they state clearly their plan to abolish all monotheism and replace it with earth worship (they plan to call it GAIA). these are the plans of the NWO cabal: no religion whatsoever.
@pc, thus the reason most people around the world support Vladimir Putin and his stand against the psychopaths from the West.
The US recently appointed a Czar for this didn’t they. I think he may have returned to his think tank. I have no idea if I’m a believer or not but I ‘m not remotely offended, and I would agree esp about the organized part….but you refer to the invention of God whereas others refer to an experience which is not always organized but often deeply personal and, god knows, like sex and love, potentially powerful. I submit that it is that power over which armies both visible and invislble fight for the minds and hearts of men and not only that but esp our birthright, our nature, our contested human resources. Life, Nature, God, inner or outer, fake or real….it gets harder to discriminate. But I have long had interest and admiration for individuals like Sheik Imran Hussein or say, Mother Miriam of the Cross; “Christians of the Orient Stand Up Against the New Western Colonialism;” http://www.voltairenet.org/article171673.html. I take these to be men and women of God (in capital or not.)
Sheikh Imran Hosein not Hu……Spelling important, very, sorry.
Good points VV, when humans took up a sedentary way of life, much changed. The abundance of grain meant scribes to account for it and armies to protect it. And men annoited by some god or other to maintain order. We all know the rest.
Then it is obvious that you do not read history. There has NEVER been a religious war in the western hemisphere but there has been over a soccer game between El Salvador and Honduras in 1969. Two world wars and countless wars between democracy verse communism. Four times more people were murdered on the streets of New York City between 1970-2000 than in hundreds of years of inquisitions, (thats a fact look it up). Nearly three times as many people were killed in the American civil war than in 200 years of the crusades.
Atheists Stalin and Mao killed more people than all Roman and Byzantine emperors combined. Westerners need to actually read history not hollywood myths.
I’m not entirely in disagreement. Neither do I fully agree. I think that the practice of non-violence, in thought, word and deed is an essential part of human nature that has been corrupted by mind-identification with abstract symbolism (of which organized religion owes its continued existence). Any time the true nature of humanity percolates into the mind-hubris of religion – it should be viewed as thus: as sanity prevailing in spite of the labyrinths of religious logic, NOT as an enlightened product of religious doctrine. Religion is a veneer that seeks to obscure our innate goodness and morality with a morality imposed from without – disseminated from an artificial hierarchy. Even this man admits his possession of a unique interpretation of the Quran. It just so happens to be based on a relatively non violent world view which incidentally reflects the disposition of natural man. Basically it comes down to this: If you need a religion to dictate to you what is right and wrong, you’ve lost your humanity.
I waited eagerly for this Saker and although you do not need my approval, the questions ‘stragedy’ was a good one.
I was gratified at the result, to say the least.
And I look forward to part 2. Is there part 3?
He is an important voice that needs to be heard by anyone capable
of thinking deeply about what he is saying.
Once again your blog surpasses anything else that is ‘out there’, and
moreover is attracting serious interviews and information that must
be disemimnated as widely as possible, and I am astonished
by the quality of the comments and the links, no doubt the trolls
that come here have to be a cut above the average
Your international ‘affiliates’ are an epecially unique phenomenon,
which I have never, to my limited knowledge ever seen before.
It’s just what the dotor ordered……so to speak.
People who wonder what the other languages and cultures/countries
are thinking, like me, now have a chance to really find out, for which
you should receive ample rcognition and blessings.
Thank you for this and for all the other things that appear here, like
real video from Ukraine, Givi, Motorolla etc are becoming household
names or should be, if there is any justice.
how about this for a start?
Please can you give us more detail? what is this? how does it work? how good are the transcripts, if you’ve ever used this?
I’ve used it. It’s as good as the subscript files at youtube because it’s a service that grabs them and lets you download them as .srt files which can be used with player software for downloaded videos. Sometimes it can’t get the .srt for reasons I don’t know.
it was the how to use them I wondered about. What player software?
I use the free, open source software, VLC Player, to play every kind of video and even audio file. Many people seem to use this program also, I think it’s simply the best.
VLC homepage and download:
If you have the srt file for a video you simply open it using the VLC menu when you have the video loaded and it plays in sync with the video. Occasionally I’ve had trouble getting an srt file to play, or to play in sync, but mostly I’ve also had it work flawlessly, which feels like a small miracle :)
ps..Using srt files implies that you have the video downloaded in the first place of course. There are many options for this, from browser plugins to separate software. For a YouTube video I use YouTube Downloader. It’s free, but be careful when you install it because I think it wants to make Yahoo your default search engine or some junk like that – you just have to choose custom install and DE-select the check box.
Homepage and download:
A very good downloader for YouTubes is Pullbin. No need to install anything, Just copy the YouTube and follow instructions for downloading in different formats you can chose from.
If you give the .srt file the exact same name as the video (other than the extension of course – e.g. video “HavingFun.mp4” would have srt file “HavingFun.srt”), vlc will automatically add the subtitles.
The “Keep Subs” website works only if the video already has subtitles. These subtitles can be either manually added by the uploader, or the uploader can opt to make “automatic” subtitles available (which use voice recognition to generate the subtitles). The quality of the “automatic” subtitles is quite poor but if you want to transcribe a video it is often quicker to edit the automatic subtitles than to start from scratch.
Beautiful. Thanks, I’ll play with it. The automatic is good on proper speeches, hopeless on casual conversations, sometimes quite funny.
I am very interested in making Dutch translations and subtitling of English Youtubes. Translation is no problem, but can you or one of your collegue moderators, or may be some one reading this help me out? Which program is best to use? There are several options, but some one with experience has some good tips I hope.
Good Morning K.K.
On a different subject to this post can I draw your attention to a very relevant topic with regard the Russian Central Bank Constitution which up until very recently Putin was not wanting to alter. I think the attached link to a Youtube video may say it all with regards changes to the Bank’s constitution currently underway. This video has had only one view to date and that was mine two days ago. Is there any possibility of a moderator being able to provide an English copy of the Russian dialog with which we could make up English sub titles:
From William Blum’s Anti-Empire Report #138:
January 29: Former Chairman of the local government of the Kharkov region, Alexey Kolesnik, hanged himself.
February 24: Stanislav Melnik, a member of the opposition party (Partia Regionov), shot himself.
February 25: The Mayor of Melitopol, Sergey Valter, hanged himself a few hours before his trial.
February 26: Alexander Bordiuga, deputy director of the Melitopol police, was found dead in his garage.
February 26: Alexander Peklushenko, former member of the Ukrainian parliament, and former mayor of Zaporizhi, was found shot to death.
February 28: Mikhail Chechetov, former member of parliament, member of the opposition party (Partia Regionov), “fell” from the window of his 17th floor apartment in Kiev.
March 14: The 32-year-old prosecutor in Odessa, Sergey Melnichuk, “fell” to his death from the 9th floor.
Democracy eschews opposition as practiced by vassals states.
Even the Hegemon’s democracy is a one party reality with two AKA’s for the ruling Elite.
So, Kiev is just removing obstacles to democracy. Is that such a big crime? Heavenly Heroes v.2.
Xian, William Blum’s post was excellent. But what does that have to do with this topic?
These threads exist in time as well as space. Oftentimes people want to offer information and the best place to do it is in the current thread of the latest post. Personally, I sometimes find it distracting to go off topic in a thread, but most times I’m immensely grateful for the additional information being given to me without my having to search for it elsewhere, or even miss it entirely.
On balance I think it’s a good thing. I encourage you to smile upon the practice. Also, you could pick a name for yourself instead of being anonymous, and you could join in a cumulative discourse :)
Interesting video Q&A on Good Friday.
Saker nails a big ‘get’!
The man is very clear and the questions evoked deep, serious answers, some uncomfortable, some very accurate.
Raises the level of discourse on the Vineyard to a high and scholarly level.
Islam is not an answer for me, but this man’s Islam is at the least civil by any standard.
Most importantly, we get a three dimensional picture of Orthodox Christianity from Islam, from history and why it defines Russia.
As no-one else has yet said this, for Orthodox Christians this Sunday is Palm Sunday, as the method to determine Easter differs. Good Friday is a week away by that reckoning.
I thank Saker for giving us this interview. The final answers on flogging and the cutting off of hands did sadden me as an Orthodox Christian, but it was good to hear what the sheikh had to say.
Yes, that’s one thing the Franko Christianity does right IMHO….a changing Easter, related to the cosmos…nice.
I also was so inspired and enthusiastic about this man and what he says, a very courageous man who has studied the scriptures and come to conclusions that could lead the planet in a good direction.
But when he came to the question about punishments, I began to feel doubts…
To put it very simple — I believe that mankind as a whole in developing, despite ups and downs (two steps ahead, one step back, and so on…)
Even if the punishments in itself are kept (like capital punishment), the reasons for the punishments has to change.
For example: if government takes away all means to sustain oneself, judgement for theft must be different from what it is in a good society (where only bad people steal).
And another thing is sexual relations. My understanding is that 1000 years ago people didn’t engage emotionally in loving relationships, so sex was seen in another way. Even if modern “sex revolution” can be criticized, we must admit that nowadays the feeling of romantic love between people are a very strong force that is not inherently evil. Many people, esp women, are forced or lured into bad marriages. If they are lucky they eventually find a loving person outside the existing relationship. What to do?
He said that flogging (for adultery) is a replacement for stoning to death, and a step in the right direction. But I am confused….
How about one more step……? (And again — maybe not the punishment in itself, but the decision about WHO to punish.)
Strict punishment of flogging in quran seems appropriate given what adultery does to society and it destroys homes, which are the basic units of any society. It is a misconception that “primitive people” 10000 ago were some how inferior to modern humans in culture and emotions. Humans today are same as humans thousands of years ago.
Just follow the money.
Same with $hitlary as all the rest of the ‘do as i say, not as i do’ crowd.
Venezuelan Coup Plotter Gustavo Cisneros Donated $1M to Clinton Foundation
Rachel Boothroyd (VA) : A recent report has emerged revealing that Venezuelan billionaire and media tycoon, Gustavo Cisneros, donated up to US$ 1 million dollars to the Bill, Hillary and Chelsea Clinton Foundation between 2009-2013, while Hillary Clinton served as Secretary of State for the Obama administration.
Dear The Saker,
Thank you for this. I will sit down and listen to this carefully tomorrow.
the only reason it’s a “huge” pleasure for you to interview Sheikh Hoasain is because, on this topic, you’re naive and ignorant [personal attack removed]. If you were a Muslim (shia or Sunn’a) you’d realize that Sheikh Hosein is a charlatan and is not even close to representative of mainstream Islam. Just because he says things pleasing to your ears (like apologizing to Christians for past excesses committed against Christians by Muslims), that does not make the man sincere or representative.
There are plenty of instances of this individual propagating hateful end of times scenarios where all other religions are extinguished in a bloody military conquest and forced conversion (except for your precious Christianity).
You are outside of your expertise when dealing with this topic. The only area where you shine is gleaning information on the Donbass conflict, explaining military tactics, and your understanding of Russian weapons-systems,… outside of that, things roll downhill.
And, if by some usual instance this comment actually passes the censors/moderators…….
MOD: personal attacks (against authors and commentators alike) are against the posting rules, so they have been removed. Your comments about Sheikh Hosein are are left in the hope of some useful discussion arising. Perhaps you could contribute some examples of what you claim ?
Here in the west, we are constantly told by our betters that mainstream Islam is something akin to Saudi Wahabbism or the Muslim Brotherhood. However, the majority of Muslims live east of the Persian Gulf between Iran, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Malaysia, and Indonesia, and frankly, we rarely are told anything of their view or practice of Islam.
Sheikh Imran Hosein is from that cultural background. I think he is quite mainstream if for no other reason than that.
Sheikh Imran is a true and learnt Muslim. Quran calls us with name Muslim hence anybody must not call himself anything else other than Muslim, i.e., shia, sunni, etc. Quran strictly forbids sections and groups within religion. In broader view Islam is religion of God, so Adam (AS) to Muhammad(SAWW) all prophets were also Muslims and this is mentioned in Quran. This is the reason that every Muslim must have to have faith in every prophet and in his book if he has one. Like Jesus(AS), Moses(AS) or David(AS) has.
“If you were a Muslim (shia or Sunn’a) you’d realize that Sheikh Hosein is a charlatan and is not even close to representative of mainstream Islam. Just because he says things pleasing to your ears (like apologizing to Christians for past excesses committed against Christians by Muslims), that does not make the man sincere or representative.”
Actually you are very wrong. I am part of mainstream Islam (a Moroccan) and Sheikh Imran Hosein is the most listened to modern scholar this past 10 years from Morocco to Indonesian (KSA included). If you listen/view his years old videos on YT, you will note that about the un-Islamic adventures of the Ottoman rulers he has multiple times stated the same things again and again, and he is absolutely right about the Agha Sofia Cathedral taken away from the conquered, completely against Islam and its Teaching, if you pay close attention to the Hadiths of our Prophet (pbuh) you will understand and agree with the Sheikh. There is also a historical fact; The Companion of the Prophet (pbuh) Omar ibn Khattab who became the second Caliph, The Patriarch of Jerusalem Sophronius invited Omar to pray inside the Church, but Umar refused. He insisted that if he prayed there, later Muslims would use it as an excuse to convert it into a mosque – thereby depriving Christendom of one of its holiest sites. Instead, Umar prayed outside the Church, where a mosque (called Masjid Umar – the Mosque of Umar) was later built.
Why do I have a feeling that you are either from Turkey or KSA ?
Thank you for posting this. It is true that the Syeikh may not be representing the ‘mainstream’ or ‘majority’ muslims, but that doesn’t mean he is wrong. It is not fair to judge Islam according to the practices of the majority muslims because most of us, the muslims, are already being far from the religion. As you can see the comment posted by tunnelingthru, it is rude, full of hatred, and such behaviour is far from anything religious, and in my personal opinion he probably is representing the behaviour of the majority of the muslims today, who are ignorant and know a little about the religion. I am sorry for that fact, but it’s the truth, as our Prophet (saw) said it 1400y ago, that there will be time when Islam becomes strange as it was when it came down. So, if we value anything based on the majority, especially in viewing Islam, we may not see the truth about it. The Syeikh is a world known scholars, his followers are countless from all over the world, and his audiences are not only muslims. We see him as a sincere teacher and we love him dearly, and we do not see any ‘hidden agenda’ behind all his lectures (or his books). They are mind blowing and eye opening. I hope more people are waking up as to the present situation in the world, and for muslims, I pray that we all can learn and understand how far we have been from the religion and immediately return to Islam as what it truly is. To know more about him you can check out his website http://www.imranhosein.org. Again, thank you for posting this video.
After Soral, another great pick from the Saker! As an atheist, i reckon this man of peace is a great thinker, and i encourage everyone to have a listen.
Public floggings for theft? Hmmm? Generally I am against violence and as some wag once noted, corporal punishment smacks of sadism.
However for thieving oligarchs, greedy scamming Wall Street slickers, IMF slave traders, slimebag politicians and other pathological liars, con-men and looters, I must confess there might be some merit and I am starting to warm to the idea.
This is Good Friday for Catholics. I’m always reminded by one of the prayers today, where the Church prays for prisons to be opened and prisoner’s chains to be broken that the Church is opposed to the caging of man as a punishment for crime, as if even the criminal man were a dangerous animal instead of a soul for whom Christ died. In contrast to reducing man to being an animal, corporal punishment or chastisement seems fairly benign and even healthy. Christ tells us to not fear those who can scourge the body on earth, but to fear him who can destroy the soul in Gehenna.
When Europe and America were more Christian, there were many less prisons, and many more town stocks and flogging posts, and criminals were expected to be physically chastised and to make economic compensation to their victims instead of sitting behind bars.
“This is Good Friday for Catholics.” — well, actually only east of the international date line. It’s Saturday here! Try expanding your temporal perspective a little on a global blog-space.
It’s been a day now and nobody has corrected me. Did nobody see this video all the way through or was it just not worth mentioning?
sanctuary one…probably everyone commenting watched the whole thing…sorry, I read your comment, what are you expecting from us ?
I got a bit muddled after reading other information on punishment and Islam -not an area I know much about. Public flogging is for adultery; chopping hands is for theft. I realised my mistake seconds after posting but decided to leave it uncorrected and see if anyone noticed.
I can’t say I have too much use for absolute interpretations of laws thousands of years old and which are not appropriate to the environment today.
Let’s take armaments as an example -how about a religious law taken literally that has absolute conviction that a Damascus sword is the ultimate weapon and that only it could be used in a country’s defence. How much use would that be today?
Metaphors are more appropriate than fundamentalist rigid interpretation -either that or the guidebook needs a visit to get updated. Sorry if this offends anyone.
dear Sanctuary, it doesn’t offend..and I agree,….I don’t think anyone but oligarchs should get their hands cut off.
yeah its tough when you regret your comment.
Is there any possibility of an interview with Zhirinovsky??
A most brilliant, experienced, totally knowledgeable, extraordinarily colorful Russian Politician capable of making even Putin smile.
Saker this is such a good video…the sheik is so great…what a scholar…I didn’t realize that he was a pioneer in eschatology of Islam…he’s doing a good job…what a saint really. True Christians feel the same way as his eschatology does. The only thing that’s not ‘Christian’ is he only recognizes Jesus, not Christ. I would like to hear him talk on Christ…
“ The only thing that’s not ‘Christian’ is he only recognizes Jesus, not Christ. I would like to hear him talk on Christ…”
The Quran identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Masih), referring to him as “Isa” (pbuh). Jesus is one of the most important prophets in Islam, but not the Son of God. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not accept Jesus son of the Virgin Mary.
Christ (/kraɪst/; Ancient Greek: Χριστός, Christós, meaning “anointed”) is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ)
Greetings every one.
Just a quick for those who didn’t know, Alain Soral had obtained the right from Sheikh Imran Hossein to translate and publish one of his book “Jerusalem in Qur’an”.
Kontre Kulture is Soral’s publishing company, the book in French is “Jerusalem dans le Coran”
terry, I see you get your profound knowledge from random blogs….wow
Karl-Heinz Ohlig ( Born 1938 in Koblenz) is a German professor of Religious Studies and the History of Christianity at the University of Saarland, Germany.
He is the co-editor with Gerd Rudiger Puin of the book Die dunklen Anfänge. Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und frühen Geschichte des Islam [“The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research Into Its Early History” (Hans Schiller Verlag, 2005/Prometheus Books 2008)], which argues that Islam was not originally conceived as a distinct religion.
Ohlig and Puin’s thesis propounds that according to the evidence of Arab coinage, and the inscription in the Dome of the Rock in the late 7th century, with the letters MHMT and the term Muhammad meaning “the revered” or “the praiseworthy” and the Dome’s bearing Christian symbols such as crosses, it suggests that the term Muhammad was a Christian honorific title referring to Jesus, as in the hymn of the mass (“praise be to he that comes…”
Q: Is also the emergence of Islam, a part of the ancient church history?
A: Islam researcher Friedrich Schwally already said in 1919: The theologians are not aware that Islam is a part of our church history. The closer one is concerned with the Quran, the more clearly we see that the origin of the Qur’an was a form of Christianity. Probably not until about the year 800, this became an independent religion.
Q: What are the key documents?
A: As I said, the Syrian Church has always seen as a prophet, an apostle of God Jesus. The Syrian Church Father Afrahat often calls Jesus the “Great Prophet”, not the Son of God, but the son of Mary, and in this Syrian theology goes back to the Koran.
Q: You have written that “Muhammad” was actually a name for Jesus.
A: “Muhammad” means “the Promised” and the first coinage on which this title appears, wearing only Christian symbols, the cross, Jesus’ baptism or the like. The Caliph Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, which is considered the first Muslim edifice, but a church. The inscription, which he had attached inside, is a purely Christological text. It is a polemic against the thesis that Jesus is the Son of God.
Josef van Ess is the world’s most distinguished scholar of classical kalam, the Muslim theology that was the precursor to, and foundation for, modern Islam. This book makes available, for the first time in English, the fruit of van Ess’s 35 years of work in the field. A lucid and authoritative introduction to classical Islam, it opens a window on the intellectual world that gave rise to Muslim theology. A sustained look at important issues in early kalam, “The Flowering of Muslim Theology” discusses the emergence of theology in the classical period and offers acute and illuminating comparisons with the Christian (and Jewish) traditions.
all these quotes from WESTERN SCHOLARS……
is there no one who has studied the Arabic sources?
even in translation?
the problem reveals itself in the translations from the
Arabic into western languages by western scholars…
why do different ‘scholars’ have different intrepretations
of the same Arabic text?
my latest Qur’an by a man who spent 19 years with
the Beduin, an Englishman, debated with them about
meanings of words, in their free time, round the campfire?
in copious footnotes, he details the various commentators
through the ages, mostly Arab, and what they thought a word
meant, whether they agreed or differed; and whether
he agreed or had his own interpretation.
After all the BEDUIN ARE THE LEAST WESTERNIZED ARABS
and their language is the closest to the Arabic of the Qur’an.
my 2 cnts
Islam was quickly recognized as a heresy. St. John of Damascus (c. 675 or 676 – 4 December 749) in his famous work “The Fount of Knowledge”, in his Chapter about Heresies:
“There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites… From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.”
It is not a Christian heresy, but a heresy of its own. The term heresy is from Greek αἵρεσις originally meant “choice” or “thing chosen”, but it came to mean the “party or school of a man’s choice” and also referred to that process whereby a young person would examine various philosophies to determine how to live. It is a mish mash of Christian, Jewish, pagan beliefs, half backed and badly digested mixed with highly fantastic history (ex. Jesus “was begotten, without seed, of Mary the sister of Moses and Aaron” – they believed that in the time of St. John Damascene and they believe it today!) and presented as godly revelation.
Ohlig and Puin’s thesis that Muhammad was a Christian honorific title referring to Jesus is simply taken from the Quran, which purports that Jesus has prophesied the coming of Mahomet! Sura 61, 6: “And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: ‘O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.’ But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”
See the commentary of an Islamic luminary, Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
“5438: “Ahmad”, or “Muhammad”, the Praised One, is almost a translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the present Gospel of John, 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7, the word “Comforter” in the English version is for the Greek word “Paracletos”, which means “Advocate”, “one called to the help of another, a kind friend”, rather than “Comforter”. Our doctors contend that Paracletos is a corrupt reading for Periclytos, and that in their original saying of Jesus there was a prophecy of our Prophet Ahmad by name. Even if we read Paraclete, it would apply to the Prophet, who is “a Mercy for all creatures” (21:107) and “most kind and merciful
to the Believers” (9:128).
Mahomed prophesying about himself!
too bad no one knows what the Torah is
I am a Christian and i do enjoy listening to the wise words of Sheikh Imran Hosein. What a wonderful person hope to see the second part soon.
Did I hear it correctly?
He claims the Ottoman Empire was only fighting the orthodox christian east?
Vienna, two times – anybody?
He goes on and claims, that it was an unislamic Empire, because they were in a state of perpetual war. Okay, I get that.
But doesn’t it imply that islam was spread by peaceful means, and those who were conquered by Arabs and Ottomans simply chose voluntarily to become Muslim? Sure!
I’m sure the Hindus, Moors, Indonesians were all but convinced with sweet words and promises of an afterlife full of abundance and peace. I’m pretty sure, everytime the Muslims were attacked and had the right to defend themselves – just like the ZATO bases at the border of Russia are under constant threat by Russia (what’s that with Russia placing its borders near those ZATO bases, eh?).
I’ve read many books and saw many videos with the Sheik, but on this one he disappoints a little.
I suppose if one needs a religious guide then that is what one needs. I have my own direct relationship with God or the many names such has. I was raised a Christian and loved it as a child but upon entering adulthood I began to question why “religious people” diverged from the basic morals taught. In doing so I studied the Bhagavad Gita and practiced Bakti extensively, I studied about Buddha and chanted extensively, I studied the Koran and practiced Sufi, I studied Christianity and found the original texts directly translated into English, I participated in and learned a lot about Australian Aborigine Dreaming, I had a guru for 13 years too. I use the ideas of Loazi (Lao Tsu) mostly these days but still have the universal morals for daily practical life. I did not consciously combine any when I practiced them. I believe we have to find our own spiritual way, but arriving at that way may involve some study, and practice of established ways. I know what is beyond body death as in just this life I have died 3 times, fully out of my body, the last time out of my body for several hours and sent back. But then again being out of one’s body s not difficult to do. I can also fully recall my recent past lives and have visited many of the places of them in my current life, and even met a friend from one. Ghosts have continually contacted me since early childhood too, even this week, but only recently did I first see a black ghost; scarey. I used to get a lot of plants talking to me too.
Is that for real? I mean the “sorties” in astral?
Diquiren, please don’t think I’m being rude if I ask, do you use drugs on these out of body experiences ? Just wondering….your comment is interesting, but it would appear to me that you are just trying things out and haven’t found anything yet….keep on going.
I don’t know muslim theology but history. The ottoman empire was in fact more tolerant and multicultural as christians states and empires at the time. The byzantine’s empire collapse started long before the siege of Constantinople, following the same path as other empires. The ottomans secularized and adapted the sharia law in concordance with the local laws, abolished the villeinage, the Orthodox Church was accepted (unlike the muslims in the christian world). One symbol of the ottomans tolerance is the virgin statue in Hagia Sophia: why the muslims didn’t destroy the blaspheme image? The winner will always rewritten the history, the demonization from the ottoman’s after the empire’s fall follow this path. I follow Sheik longtime now( like Soral, Dieudo’), his simplistic americanstyle world (di)vision good guy bad guy, heaven-hell, is miles away from our millenaries euro-asatic rich culture’s, is the same fault Soral’s does: they lose lot of credibility misrepresenting history, it’s a nonsense. One giant nonsense, their purpose are sincere but historic knowledge really limited. Ty Saker for the interview
I can, perhaps, in my responses to the rest of Saker’s questions, make mention of some of the commendable aspects of Ottoman rule,
In fact, if I had to, I could do the same for otherwise treacherous Saudi rule over the heart-land of Islam,
However, may I suggest that such recognition would not invalidate my eschatological analysis that the Ottoman so-called Islamic Empire – like the Saudi Kingdom which replaced it in the world of Islam, and the bogus ISIS which now threatens to replace the Saudi State – are all created by Dajjal – the false Messiah, to further his mission of eventually ruling the world from Jerusalem and declaring that he is the (true) Messiah.
The Ottoman State waged endless unjust wars on RUM (i.e., the Orthodox Christian world). Why? They never waged war on Britain, France, Germany etc. An attack on Vienna does not invalidate the general strategy of endless unjust war on RUM.
They enslaved Christian women are used them as their private stable for breeding future Sultans. Why?
They forced upon the vanquished Christians an obligation to hand over choice Christian boys who were then converted by force to Islam and groomed to become the elite Janisarry fighting force of the Ottoman armed forces. Why?
The very first thing that Sultan Muhammad Fathi did upon the conquest of Constantinople was the convert the Orthodox Christain Cathedral Hagia Sophia to a Masjid. Why?
I perceive such endless unjust Ottoman wars on RUM, and all the rest mentioned above, to have taken place in the context of a diabolically evil effort to sabotage the End-time alliance of Muslims with RUM as prophesied by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
This is my view, and no one should ever agree with my opinion unless convinced that I am correct.
Imran N. Hosein
When I visited the Hagia Sophia in 1995’ish the structure was intact and although undergoing some restoration work the amount of Muslim influence in its interior re-design amounted to removable panels with Islamic script covering the original iconography of human images.
Its current unconsecrated status as either a working cathedral or mosque is another matter. I suggest it suffered less impact of reversal than the Mosque-cathedral of Córdoba which was earlier a Catholic Christian church built by the Visigoths on an earlier temple site to the Roman god, Janus.
“Kingdom of Heaven DC: Salah al Din Tribute”:
Before passing final judgement on Islam and the Ottomans it should be remembered where they arose and how much violent destruction they wrought on the Islamic world (including Persia) before they had even arrived, as the Seljuks, at the gates of Constantinople. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire )
History informs us the Pope and Patriarch excommunicated each other over religious doctrines and jurisdictional disputes resulting in the Eastern and Western churches officially splitting in 1054. The Mongol nomads from central Asia begin conquests in the early 1200s. Kiev falls in 1240 to Genghis Khan’s grandson, Batu Khan and the Mongols rule much of Russia for the next 200 years. In 1280 Mongol rule stretched from the Yellow Sea to the Mediterranean.
Perhaps before the Europeans complain too much about their treatment from the Islamic Empires they might consider what their fate would have been at the hands of the Mongols had not the Islamic world absorbed, buffered and largely converted the onslaught from central Asia.
That the Seljuks and other Turk peoples largely converted/reverted to Islam is a testament to that religion’s civilizing influence. And that the remaining diminished momentum of the Mongul expansion then expressed itself within the praxis of the Ottoman Empire towards its vassals is almost a miracle in itself. Perhaps this should be considered in any comparative analysis from the modern perspective?
I went to Constantinople in 12/14, and saw with my own eyes ottoman European style palaces reflecting friendly alliance between ottomans and french and British.
Salaam alaikum Shaykh Imran,
I share your views about the akhirul zaman alliance between Islam and Rum, and am delighted to find you interviewed here at the Saker. On my kindle, I am currently reading your book about the Caliphate and the Saudi-Wahhabi State.
So, I am surprised at the vehemence of your attack on the Ottoman Empire in response to the second question.
Another respected Shaykh, Abdalqadir as-Sufi drew my attention to the book, Death & Exile – the Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims from 1821-1922″, by Justin McCarthy. This seems to me to present a better response to the “Orthodox Christians who (supposedly) know their history” and who have “extremely bad memories of the brutal persecutions by the Ottomans”.
It is precisely that “bad (in the other sense of poor/selective) memory” which the book addresses, by narrating the corrective truth that the Western powers – and Russia – were deeply involved in fomenting violent revolutionary nationalism among the non-Muslim peoples under Otttoman rule.
Shaykh Abdalqadir’s video is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVjYiKi6Nag
Although I reject his views concerning today’s Russia, as surely would you and the Saker’s readership, his understanding of today’s Turkey seems to me to be both nuanced and well-informed.
Salaam alaikum Shaykh Imran,
I share your views about the akhirul zaman alliance between Islam and Rum, and am delighted to find you interviewed here at the Saker. On my kindle, I am currently reading your book, The Caliphate, The Hijaz, and the Saudi-Wahhabi Nation State.
So, I am surprised at the vehemence of your attack on the Ottoman Empire in response to the second question.
Another respected Shaykh, Abdalqadir as-Sufi drew my attention to the book, Death & Exile – the Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims from 1821-1922″, by Justin McCarthy. This seems to me to present a better response to the “Orthodox Christians who (supposedly) know their history” and who have “extremely bad memories of the brutal persecutions by the Ottomans”.
It is precisely that “bad (in the other sense of poor/selective) memory” which the book addresses, by narrating the corrective truth that the Western powers – and Russia – were deeply involved in fomenting, and arming, violent revolutionary nationalism among the non-Muslim peoples under Otttoman rule.
Shaykh Abdalqadir’s video is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVjYiKi6Nag
Although I reject his views concerning today’s Russia, as surely would you and the Saker’s readership, his understanding of today’s Turkey, as well as its Osmanli heritage, seems to me to be both nuanced and well-informed.
Salaam alaikum Shaykh Imran N. Hosein, i really appreciated the unexpected answer. Sorry but as i mention i don’t know muslim theology.
In history every empire has born in blood, independently from the Religious means, and died in blood. I think it’s reductive to find the answers only on eschatological means. Indeed u’re right about all point u mention, but have please one historical view: any empire ruled with fear and oppression. About the unjust wars on RUM i can only say one thing: all wars are unjust, but any empire in History has annexed territories in order to expand his influence.Ottoman Empire had the entire Orthodox world on it’s border. And see the positive, without the ottoman invasion Moscow would never become the so called the 3th Rome (and russian orthodoxy never separated from the greek one). Only after 1894 the declining Ottoman Empire conducted a policy of genocide against the Christian population: as we can see nowadays the path it’s the same for every declining empire. I’m sorry but i didn’t see any particular evil here. The entire human history is written with blood. My biggest claim to Monotheism is the insane concept of holy war: we killed or converted anyone else and fight each other in God’s name. In good old times Rome killed in Rome’s name.
I ironically wrote over your “simplistic americanstyle view”, my intent was not to offense you but i really believe you don’t have to justify Islam calling the Ottomans Antichrist. Christians started killing in God’s name long before the Muslims, we all know God has nothing to do with. My regards
“My biggest claim to Monotheism is the insane concept of holy war:”
Good day to you, just a quick note, the term “Holy War” is not Islamic, nor is there any such term in Arabic which would be translated as “al harb al qudsi”, this term is not in the Qur’an, not in the Hadiths (Ahadith) and not in any classical or modern Islamic books, I would even safely state that it is not even uttered by any Muslims. As an added note, Jihad means Struggle and may definitely not be translated to “Holy War”.
Sir, can you point me to the specific verses that led you to come to this conclusion?
Also, do you have an opinion about the possible eschatological meaning of the Alawite victory over the salafist abomination in Syria?
Dear Imran N. Hosein,
Thank you so much for your video answering our dear Saker’s questions. I respect so much that you are pioneering and moving forward in the study of the Qu-ran. I am a Christian, but I fully agree with you that we need to join hands against evil… I feel that your work is opening up this great religious book in a way the goes truthfully into the future and really, truth is everything. I hope Muslims in all parts of the world respect and educate themselves in your ideas, as they really ring true. Thanks so much for being a part of our community, and I am going to get one of your books.
“truth is everything”
truth is not everything – right is everything.
@One symbol of the ottomans tolerance is the virgin statue in Hagia Sophia: why the muslims didn’t destroy the blaspheme image
This is just poppycock.
“After the Ottoman occupation of Constantinople in 1453, with the transition of Hagia Sophia into mosque, the mosaics were covered whitewashed or plastered. With Fosatti brothers’ restoration in 1847, the mosaics got uncovered and were copied for record. But they still remained covered until 1931 when a restoration and recovery program began under the leadership of Thomas Whittemore.
In 1934, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk ordered that Hagia Sophia would become a museum, the recovery and restoration expanded then”.
It is true that the Turks used to steal mosaics stones – believed to be talismans – and sell them to visitors. But that’s hardly a sign of tolerance.
An interesting post at this time which invites a considered response.
If I have the basic information correct, we see an Islamic Sheik living in Trinidad communicating with a Western audience interested in eschatology responding to a set of questions posed by a Russian Orthodox (ex/retired-) military analyst (the Saker) who earned his place in the ‘belly of the beast’ as a legal alien by subverting the Soviet Union in its latter days of demise.
The Sheik has come to the attention of the Saker for making various suggestions that a fundamental schism between Roman (Western) Catholic Church and the Orthodox (Eastern) Church is reflected in the Koran. It is suggested this split allows for a useful dual interpretation of the Christian domain from an Islamic perspective – one side being more strongly aligned with the Jewish Torah while the other being more compatible with the Islamic perspective. The Saker also admits to being heavily influenced over the years by the Lebanese Hezbollah Sheik, Hassan Nasrallah.
Only the Saker knows his deeper motives. However, a reasonable interpretation of “Why?” the Saker is interested in this area may be to assume part ‘analytical’ interests and part ‘personal’ journey. In this he is not alone for many serious people who have come of age and seek answers and ‘Truth’. The Saker’s site reference to Malcom X is a clear indicator of his public (and we assume, private) position. In this regard he risks offending almost every partisan point of view. His quest appears to be leading him alone a path which by its very nature must question and sometimes diverge from the tribal perspectives and alliances of his native culture and traditions. He is not alone in this ‘seeking’. As an orthodox Christian, he is following the path of the original Semitic founder, known as the Prophet Ibrahim in Islamic traditions, who walked out on the childish idol worship of his father and the tribal system in what is now largely Iraq.
It is hard to fault the Saker’s motives and desire for the Truth. However, there are a number of fundamental obstacles between his synergising the Orthodox and Islamic viewpoints – not the least, the use of alcohol and iconography. That aside, nonetheless, there is enough apparent common ground to make the ‘enemy of an enemy’ a useful ‘friend’.
A point to note from the Sheik’s response to the Saker’s written questions from a large Islamic broadcasting network cable ‘tv’ studio in Trinidad, just off the coast of Venezuela.
To what extent does “neither acceptance, nor rejection …” of an opinion equal ignoring it as largely irrelevant?
Indeed, the strategy of ‘divide-and-rule’ is known to be effective and the Sheik’s interpretations could be also reasonably construed to also effect a dividing of the Christian domain along ancient historical fault lines (circa, . Similarly, the Islamic domain is also divided between Sunna and Shia Islamic world-views. This ‘divide’ (in search of identity) appears to resonate with the emerging Russian (as distinct from Soviet) identity challenges.
The ‘carrot’ being dangled here for the Saker (and those of his persuasion) is the tempting thought that somewhere inside the Islamic curtain is a secret store of eschatological knowledge and wisdom which can help point the way forward for non-Muslims. Whether this is the case, or not, the usefulness of any such repository to non-Muslims is questionable.
However, what is clear from the times of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky (“ISIS Unveiled”) Blavatsky through to Peter D. Ouspensky (“In Search of the Miraculous”), is a strong bent in the Russian psyche for secret knowledge in far way lands.
Ouspensky’s prime source, G.I. Gurdjieff, the Greek Armenian from Georgia, in whose parent’s house the young later Soviet leader Iosif Vissarionovich (Joseph) Stalin boarded, claimed that Christianity (or at least the system it derived from) could be traced back into pre-sands Egypt. This may explain why the Hebrews largely rejected its reintroduction around 2,000 years ago.
Whether it’s today’s ‘ISIS’ or ‘SISI’ – the Land of the Sphinx cannot be ignored in either the Christian or Hebrew narratives. However, the Islamic perspective largely moves forward (rather than looking back) based on claims that a new revelation, suitable even for the (then) highly degenerate Arab mind and culture, is still relevant for a degenerate future scenario.
It is somewhat interesting that the Sheik is claiming to be the generator of a new wing under the theme of Islamic eschatology. From a cursory search, his links with Inshan Ishmael (ceo of the Islamic broadcasting network ) and the ‘Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha’ which is a major Hindu organisation in Trinidad and Tobago I think it would be useful to hear what the Sheik has to say about his Indian links and their efforts to remove the “Trinity Cross” as Trinidad’s highest award under the view that it “… is strictly a Christian symbol, and as a result, it discriminates in a multi-religious society.” (Wikipedia)
I’d like to hear views on British and Russian influences in colonial India – e.g., the Ahmadi experiment that now largely underpins the London Mosque, and the whole Theosophical line that began with Blavatsky and ‘officially’ ended with Jiddu Krishnamurti. What say the Sheik about another Indian of great persuasive powers, Idries Shah, who made claims of connection with Sufi schools and Gurdjieff’s alleged secret monasteries in Afghanistan — and basically rolled G.J. Bennet’s UK ‘4th Way’ (Gurdjieff/Ouspensky) study groups to fund his publishing enterprises?
I don’t doubt the Sheik’s Islamic credentials – I’m simply interested in three broader issues:
(a) His thinking about these earlier Russian explorations into Indian (i.e., Hindu & Islamic) esoteric traditions during the previous British Empire and almost global hegemony;
(b) How these cultural patterns might inform thinking about modern emerging Russian trends and identity; and
(c) Given the Islamic traditions derive from the line of Ibrahim’s second wife, Hagar the mother of Ishmael, how does the existence and treatment of Coptic Christians relate to the Koran etc?
Also, considering the Sheik’s focus on the ‘future’, what does he say in respect to the House of the Virgin Mary? The tradition there is that it will be through Mary (the feminine element) that Islam and Christianity will be reconciled – I’m not sure (from distant memory of visiting it) what is said about the Jewish wing of the apparent 3-part Semitic phenomena. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_the_Virgin_Mary )
As someone involved in Bennett being ‘rolled’ by Idrias Shah,
I can tell you that is wrong. We were in meetings discussing
the coombe springs property for weeks. It was not his
decision althogh of course he had a lot of imfluence.
at that time he did not consider himelf to be a ‘teacher’.
Later, at 70 he startted the Acamemy for Continuous
Education at Sherborne, Gloustershire, which attracted
people from all over the world, even one from Tibet.
He died in Harness in the middle of the third course,
they were one year courses.
The other thing wong is Idrias Shah was Afghani. I met him
a number times and worked for a while with his brother.
the Bennett groups aslo worked with practices from the
Bennett was for a long time an outcast after Gurdjieff’s death
because he sought teachings ANYWHERE.
He was responsible for bringing ‘Subud’ to the west from
Indonesia, Pak Subu, the name of the leader,
He also visited a very old Yogi in India reported to be
135 years old, and brought that ‘philosophy to the west
but it did not take off like Subud, which was too easy a
practice and absorbed a lot of fringe thrill seekers etc.
my 2 cnts
Thank you for pointing out the error – indeed, Shah’s family was from Afghanistan although that, and Pakistan, still counts as the ‘British India’ region and an almost universal attractor to European myth creations and settings. And he was an early member of the Club of Rome (although I understand he subsequently left).
As for J.G. Bennett, who met Gurdjieff and Ouspensky in Istanbul at the end of the Ottoman Empire following WW1 while they were escaping the Bolshevik revolution, his role as “head of Military Intelligence “B” Division, with responsibility for the entire Middle Eastern region” (Wikipedia): the jury is mixed. Ouspensky had doubts after some alleged ‘scam’ issues and eventually threw him out of the group. No doubt Bennett had personal interest in meeting ‘all-and-everyone’ of consequence in certain fields. The question is: did his ‘intelligence work’ ever stop? Hmmmm, …?
Yes, I know someone who knew Shah personally and gives him a good rating. I also know several ex-members who joined Subud when Bennett was in that mode. They have less than glowing reports. It seems the assets were originally going to the Subud direction before a change of plan — hence some divergence of opinion. Btw, it was Husein Rofé, an English linguist who had been living in Indonesia since 1950, who introduced Subud to the West. I think he met Bennett in Cyprus. Bennett then took over the European ‘2IC’ role until he left the group – to Rofé’s annoyance, I understand.
The Subud leader, Muhammad Subuh Sumohadiwidjojo (1901 – 1987), established the Susila Budhi Dharma (Subud) Brotherhood in Semarang in 1925 with strong roots into Java’s cultural history. In spite of his denying any causal link between Subud and Sufism, there are similarities. The young Subuh was influenced by a Naqshbandi Sufi shaykh (Kyai Abdurrachman) and Kyai Demang Poncokartoko, the spiritual guide of the Sultan of Surakarta. The Indonesian Sumara Movement broke away from the Subud stream and was heavily weighted by Indonesian military types.
Although this risks going far off topic, I suggest there are patterns here that may inform thinking about the future and the cross-pollination between different traditions – what the Americans used to call the battle for ‘mind share’. I’m not suggesting blame in this outline – it’s simply been one of my pet interest areas for a number of years and part of a foresighting theme. While the Sheik presents the view that it is all controlled from ‘Above’ (and identifiable in the Koran, and possibly some Hadith), I take the view that it is very much ‘controlled’ from below – very much the ‘here-and-now’ by certain networks of vested interests which seek to control, or at least influence, events and opinions (especially of decision makers etc). Perhaps the difference now is the pervasive Internet and the apparent demise of the State in many areas subverted by corporate values and interests. In any case, my interest in Islamic eschatology is not focused on the alleged metaphysical aspects and players but rather on the anthropological descriptions of the ‘end-of-large-cycles’ as indicators etc.
My personal interest lays in the enneagram’s applicability as a useful foresight tool and the modes of thinking required to develop its potential. Bennett did some useful work in this area and hinted it was associated with the Naqshbandi. Oscar Ichazo’s Arica School influenced members of Chile’s Allende government before the first ‘9/11’ (and much of the US west coast New Age movements in the 70s) and there were links back to Bennett via members of the Athenaeum private members’ club in London of which he was a member.
Pierre Wack is also an interesting player who was a French/Belgium student of Gurdjieff in Paris during WW2. His scenario planning work ‘exploited’ the Arab Oil imago crisis in the early 70s to shift Royal Dutch Shell from 7th world ranking to 2nd – BIG money long before modern internet tracing could investigate insider trading etc. I quality ‘exploited’ here because the line between ‘cause-and-effect’ is rather blurred in some of these cases – cui bono? It is interesting to note that members of the ex-Shell scenario ‘team’ are involved in Subud and the Saïd Business School, University of Oxford – “Wafic Rida Saïd is a Syrian-Saudi Arabian financier, businessman and philanthropist, who has been resident for many years in Monaco. Saïd lived in Syria until his early twenties and studied in Beirut and London.” One of his young children also unfortunately drowned in the Saudi King’s swimming pool. I think the networking connections are beyond ‘interesting’.
As for the enigmatic enneagram, who knows? Laleh Bakhtiar, a long-time student of Seyyed Hossein Nasr, claims the modern typological interpretation of the enneagram by Ichazo, Nanjaro, Riso, et. al., does not originate from the primordial Sufi traditions. According to Bakhtiar, the origins of the enneagram originate within the Sufi traditions of Central Asia which collected monotheistic wisdoms from all ancient traditions including Pythagorean, Platonic, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist and Zoroastrian religions. Both Gurdjieff and Ichazo also claim their systems link to ancient Pythagorean traditions. Bakhtair believes the Sufi tradition inherited a sacred tradition of “Traditional Psychology” and developed a psychological teaching based on nine elements partly from the works of the 13th century Islamic scholar Nasir al-din Tusi – the same traditional psychology, she claims, that Gurdjieff encountered through the Sufis in Central Asia during his travels. I’m not sure how the Sheik Imran Hosein views these broader aspects of the Islamic traditions. I’d be interested in any comments he might make as to their relevance to Koranic orientated foresight studies etc. May well we trust in G-d, but first we are invited to tie up our camels.
Whatever the utility, one key point for comparative consideration of two world-view systems at work involves the shift from the Christian “7 sins” to a model of “9 sins” where ‘fear’ and ‘deceit’ are included in “missing the mark”. Some examples of typing national-level cultures also exist which can inform strategic thinking and discussion about ‘blind spots’ and other core issues at national cultural and civilizational levels – e.g., hegemonic ‘blindsiding’ of governance systems using fear and deceit. Is this a system of thinking that the Orthodox Gurdjieff left for his “grandsons” – perhaps an allusion to the intergenerational gap he was tossing the Buzkashi over to when Orthodox Russia awakes from its Bolshevik experiment in god-less-ness?
And for those who think this ‘dark-world’ is all ancient history, the try this (2014) link just referenced by PCR. http://www.newsweek.com/assange-google-not-what-it-seems-279447
It very much exists — except it’s simply in our reality-based community ‘information’ futures.
For example, Karl Rove:
“The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. “That’s not the way the world really works anymore.” He continued “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.” http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Karl_Rove
The ‘end of time’ may well be, on a more practical level, the end of time-delay between those of us living in our “reality-based communities” and these others who live and work in our futures…
That’s my ‘Easter Egg’ wrap for 2015: enjoy and peace.
The symbolism of nine is based on the Triad. If you raise the number three to any power, the arithmological result is invariably Nine. 3 raised to the power of two is 9, of 3 is 27 (2+7=9), of 4 is 81 (8+1=9) and so on.
The nine Heavens, the nine classes of angels of Dionysus the Areopagite.
I’ve heard thr sheikh say in one of his lectures that he would abolish
the word tasawuf, the sufi philosophy in a nutshell.
I did explore a sufi ( take an active participation) tradition in Istanbul for a number of years.
To complete where my interests lie…I am more interested
in the transmission techniques which can never be written
and depend on the proximity of one who knows to he/she
who would learn.
The worst part of all these ‘systems’ is the necessary breakdown
of ones illusions about oneself and the societal conditioning which
inevitably requires some psyhological pain and suffering.
One of Gurdjieff’s aphorism states…
“conscious labour and intentional suffering”
understanding of which would a require lengthy essay.
anbd I do not consider myself as any sort of teacher.
Cheers for your reply, I had forgotton Rofe.
People don’t listen carefully these days. Sh. Imran Hosein makes the distinction between Western Christians (read West, period) allied to the zionists. Obviously the Western Christianity of St. Francis and St. Thomas Aquinas and Meister Eckhart are not in question. He elsewhere emphasizes not all Christians in the West, but those allied with the zionists; not all Jews, but only those Jews who are zionists. There are plenty of Jews who deplore zionism.
What a magnificent tour de force!
On the way to everyone I know. Thanks Saker.
“Saying that the Koran is from God and there is only one Koran
iscould be another moronic statement”
In spite of the terrible suffering of our Armenian brethren at the hands of the Turks most Armenians do not demonize Muslims. We know what to expect from some Turks and we also know that there are Turkish people today that are not our enemies, but the Europeans again and again stabbed us in the back after using us in their interests (and more recently also the US in the 20th century), a back stabbing of the Orthodox people that the West has excelled in since at least 1054 AD. Even factoring in the terrible gulag years while ruled by the USSR we credit the Russians for saving our homeland for us, as Russia still protects us today against our NATO backed enemies on three sides while our only friendly immediate neighbor is Iran.
Most recently the example of young Syrian Muslims fighting and dying to protect the Armenian town Kesab and other Christians towns in Syria again tells us that there are Muslim believers that we can call our friends and allies, and other Muslims that are working with western interests to kill us. We see confirmation of what Sheikh Imran Hosein is saying about the Zionist Christians in the West and the Orthodox Christians of the East. Russia is trying to help Orthodox Christians in the region while the US and EU are backing our deadly enemies.
That I live in the US and can think as both an American and an Armenian keeps me aware of the difference and the wisdom of Armenian leaders to shock the EU by cutting off talks on EU accession and then join the EEU with Russia. The West would only be to happy to destroy Armenia to be able to run pipelines more directly from Azerbaijan to Turkey.
Even though Sheikh Imran Hosein may not dominate current thinking in the Islamic world his words give us hope for a better future than what the West offers us, and by us I mean the entire world other than the Anglosphere and EU.
Arius , I totally agree. Armenians and other Eastern Christians who look to the West for help and demonize Muslims are shooting themselves in the foot. Every policy that the US and Israel (is there anyone else in the West who matters?) have pursued in the Mid East/Caucasus have been a disaster for Christians and Muslims alike. Some Armenians bemoan the domination of Russia but don’t consider how much worse the IMF/Euro Troika would be. Look at Greece and Cyprus.
Whether or not one believes the eschatology of Sheikh Hosein I too welcome any force that binds rather than divides the sects and communities of the East.
Great informative Q&A session. Whatever we were told by our Western “colonial” historians are nothing but distorted history and they never taught this in our education systems. But the last freedom we have now is the internet which I fear soon will be censored like the brilliant Orthodox Christian monk Youtuber, Brother Nathanael explains and reveals with facts/evidences. “A brave new world” emerging, maybe the mastermind is the Antichrist’s system.
Once again thanks to Saker and Sheikh Imran.
I hate to disabuse my good atheist friends of their beliefs–even if you are atheists–but the facts just do not support your mythology. The worst genocides of the 20th Century were not conducted in the name of religion or as a result thereof…but rather by your side, to wit:
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000
Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39) 23,000,000 (the purges plus Ukraine’s famine)
Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
Leopold II of Belgium (Congo, 1886-1908) 8,000,000
Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians in WWII)
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) ) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000
Fidel Castro (Cuba, 1959-1999) 30,000
On what sources do you base to affirm all these so round numbers? All are accurate millions, neither more nor less.
“The worst genocides of the 20th Century were not conducted in the name of religion or as a result thereof ..”
This affirmation of yours is not true, as many of “yours” who were leaders in the 20th century, and still are now, have also killed millions, I do not know whether accurate or more or less, but millions in the end, and many are considered very religious. The problem is that these deads shall not be accounted, neither is going to be published by nobody, nobody publishes essays of 1000 pages on this, nor any institution dedicated to the Memory has counted them nor published the oral testimonies…..Rare, rare, rare…..
Any news about the deaths attributable to all the presidents of the US and their puppets around the world, those of The Sauds and Gulf monarchies, those of Israeli and European leaders?
Go to another dog with that bone!
US terror since ’45
No longer complete.
”… And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad.” But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, “This is obvious magic.”
And who is more unjust than one who invents about Allah untruth while he is being invited to Islam. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it …” Holy Quran 61:6-61:8
“O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad”
The Good Book, which came first, put it better: I haven’t come to abolish the law, but to fulful it.
fabulous questions Saker…man this is cool, what a beautiful studio and he’s so polite to you. Well done Saker !!
Than you very much for this interview. I cannot appreciate what you have done. You are builidng a bridge between Muslims and Orthodox Christians and for this I am grateful. I can only imagine how much the Gog and Magog World order must hate you for allowing this interview.
You must know that I read your blog quite a bit and even though I disagree with many things that you write and I still appreciate your platform.
And thank you Sheikh for this as well. I will watch this once I am free. (Currently on call and no time to view the interview as of yet). I will leave a comment after I have watched it.
I think religion is an outdated word, but there’s no good replacement, only cumbersome things like ‘ideological community identity.’ Some people try to argue that Buddhism isn’t a religion, try to say for certainty whether Confucianism is or isn’t, etc. Personally I think
Marxism-Leninism (a term made up by Stalin for his “ICI”) counts as a religion. Atheism was a tiny detail of it as in Therevada Buddhism or other religions. Marx didn’t consider himself an atheist, he thought atheism was missing the point. Then there are the most long-lived
ICIs, anamism, shamanism and the like. The modern west is trying to get away from all forms of sentiment, ethics, belief, etc that get in the way of capital accumulation, but you can’t run away from being human. Their fixation on statistical knowledge and technology to solve all problems and build paradise on earth shows traits of religous faith. The fact that technology isn’t all joy and progress has died a thousand deaths but keeps rising again. All they end up doing is destroying aeons of wisdom. At least the soviet union emphasized science and culture.
I recently visited Gobekle Tepe in Turkish Mesopotamia, the earliest known example of architecture. It’s a 12000 year old, pre-urban temple of concentric circles of monoliths with animal carvings. It also has strange carvings, like a headless man with an erection. The temple was one of the most striking things I’ve ever seen. It seemed to me to represent the moment when man moved from awe of nature to awe of himself.
Agriculture was starting, man was beginning to conquer nature, to develop technology to order the world as he saw fit. A profound change in how we saw the order of the world.
My personal worldview is coloured by that of the native people around Vancouver. I see nature as something greater and more beautiful and ineffable than any form of consciousness. I see all forms of anthropocentrism as quaint. I believe there is a god or the tendency for one under certain socio-environmental conditions built into the framework of our collective unconscious archetypes and that it represents
psychological needs we must address.
One thing I’m sure of is that all adherents of a given religion who think they believe do not all believe in the same way. That doesn’t mean that many are fooling themselves, it means that in reality there are different ways to believe. For one thing, It seems to me that
monotheists are divided in how they relate their consious selves and their ego. More spiritual ones separate the two successfully and ‘transfer’ the ego onto those internal and external forces beyond human control but which folllow reliable natural laws. The distruption of these laws, an emotional unfulfillment leading to counterproductive action or a relatively rare catastrophe are usually seen as abhorrent. Despite this being a psychological process taking place in a expanding universe of quantum mechanics and insignificant reflective creatures afraid of death and desperate to find meaning, this approach may be basically factually correct.
Less spiritual monotheists transfer their ego onto god, their will to power becomes his, and then they do ‘his’ work. Like the crusaders, popes, the priest in the recent film Leviathan, the Ummayids in my opinion, etc. Probably more often than not this happens unconsicously, as with most neurotic behaviour, they do genuinely believe, but in their own way. Confucius thought that ritual for its own sake was worthwhile. Rituals, whether “superstitious” or religious can be very beneficial, even if you don’t consciously believe. When my mother died in Taiwan I went there alone to deal with it all. One of her students took me to a Buddhist temple to pray to some god I’d never heard of, let alone could conceive of believing in, but I felt incredibly better after the ritual. In a similar way, some people I’ve met take great comfort in little rituals and in the belief that their set of rituals is the one right one and everyone else is just plain wrong. Their believe is little more than a jealous comfort to them.
Then there are others who believe because everyone else does, they don’t give it much thought what it means to believe, but being good people they follow along and do what they’ve been told is the right thing. Usually this turns out for the best.
But often belief mainly serves as a way of defining us and them. The psychological mechanism at play is mainly fulfillment of the need for belonging at others’ exclusion. Examples are too obvious I think. It doesn’t always get out of hand, but it’s hard to find religion where this isn’t a major factor.
Usually belief is a combination of these forms and thousands more. Probably someone else has a wizz-bang last-word definition of what it necessarily means to believe. I’ll be a tough sell. Maybe someone else mentioned this but Saker implied that you can’t say bad deeds are relgious if they aren’t in line with the relgion’s doctrine. People do a lot of things in the name of religion whether it’s in the doctrine or not. The percentage of christians I’ve met who give everything they don’t really need to charity and regularly help the sick, despised & imprisoned, hold services on humble mountain sides, well, you see where I’m going. There have always been a surfeit of corrupt clergy in every country. My high alcohol tollerance has saved me myself from being buggered by a priest of Finland’s second largest church, not to single them out.
But honestly, if we’re supposed to judge a religion by the doctrine rather than by the adherents’ behaviour, then what is religion for? In fact religion is much more complex than just a guide to life and social organization. It provides comfort in the face of death, a
highest-arbiter, a sense of meaning and belonging, legitimation of authority, and often if not usually, a tool of social control. It’s a very human thing; it’s not the greatest source of evil or of good. It’s just us muddling through.
Thank you, Saker, for even thinking to present Sheikh Imran Hosein with your questions. It’s an honor that the questions are being answered in video format.
With my lack any expertise in regard to Muslim faith, I would venture to say that Sheikh Imran Hosein is highly effective as an ambassador of the faith who brings great honor to the blessed Prophet.
All the presentations of his I’ve watched have been inspirational and encouraging regarding the future of humanity, bridging the religious divide, and in regard to correcting misconceptions and misunderstandings about the faith.
His presentations cause me to consider my own faith. They bring happiness to me regarding possible future relations between Orthodox Christians and Muslims. Yet, being outside of either faith, I feel as one observing a wedding from a distance. I have an idea of the significance of it and of the joy surrounding it. Yet, I’m on the outside looking in -without even the proper attire to sneak into the reception. Perhaps I will, at least, enjoy the music as not even the walls can contain it.
Good comment. Happiness rising carries everyone upward, whether they know the cause of it or not :)
This was immensely interesting and thought provoking and I am glad you made this interview happen. Thanks
@I just hope that Orthodox Christians will be able to reciprocate in kind and address the numerous reservations Muslims have about Orthodox Christianity, especially Russian Orthodoxy….I am still waiting for an Orthodox bishop to candidly address the concerns and doubts of Muslims.
We should wait until the Sheikh would finish his presentation of what appears to be his own version of Islam, to really see if there is anything else than what usually the Christians through their Bishops address the “concerns and doubts of Muslims”. I have very little doubts, alas, that the “concerns and doubts” of Muslims in regards to Christians would be the same as always.
The alacrity with which the Muslim commentators jumped to “clarify” for us the position of Islam (which always contains the suggestion that the Christians are wrong) is a case in point: “The Quran identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Masih), referring to him as “Isa” (pbuh). Jesus is one of the most important prophets in Islam, but not the Son of God. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not accept Jesus son of the Virgin Mary”.
Well, a Christian Bishop (if he is really Christian) will always say that the Quran is wrong. How a Christian Bishop could ever accept as the “Word of God” the explicit denial of Christ as the Word of God? And any discussion would be precluded (actually forbidden) from the start if we set the condition that criticizing the Koran is “offensive” to the Muslims.
And they consider offensive the simple doubt that it is the Word of God, “the book of ALLAH that has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years”. Offensive if someone points out that, in fact, “[the Koran] had a large number of variants, not always trifling in significance”.
Let’s wait until the end of the lecture.
1. “…his presentation of what appears to be his own version of Islam” – to be fair, it is his interpretation of the eschatological aspects of the Koran he is addressing, not Islam.
2. “… doubts, alas, that the “concerns and doubts” of Muslims in regards to Christians …” — concerns and doubts relate to the quality of the individual person, not a broad generic category like “Muslim, Christian, Jew,…”. As for the ignorance of people for the systems of thinking and believing of others beyond their own cultures – this is almost universal. However, the Islamic world-view is based on historic personages (with real graves) and various codes and laws formulated and transmitted for over 1,400 years both in text and by oral traditions. The original Koran was spoken and transmitted orally and is recited in public in its entirety in mosques during the month of Ramadan very year since its appearance on earth. Its written form was undertaken (with some concerned debate) due to the spread of Islam and the deaths of many of those who knew it from its source. The earliest written versions (some still exist) do not have ‘dots’ as vowels were not written then. Imo, venerating paper and text is a form of idolatry. It attracts the eye of certain types of ‘scholars’ and experts who then become a priest craft industry.
3. The closest Christian position to Islam is/was Nestorian Christianity which developed after the schism of 431. Certain people such as Bede Griffiths was following this eastern line down into India. I met Bede Griffiths in 1986 when he was already in his 80s. He had a complete mastery of Christian and Hindu theologies and many sadhus came while I was there in their winter circuits and touched his feet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOAlyl7u2dw I raised the Islamic subject with him but he was not as well informed of it and could not explore the synergies in that direction to any great extent.
4. As I see it, one of the main problems here is that Islamic orthodoxy is no different than any other orthodoxy – take the frame of mind and raise it in any cultural environment and you have the orthodox literal approach to whatever it is they attach importance to. So in order to work through the synergistic aspects of the Semitic world-view, one must also work through (or with) the orthodox world view which is usually focused on analytic rather than synergistic principles. The historic progression is this: the Jews have a “Messiah” figure in their belief system. Many claims have been made but the orthodox view is they are still waiting. The Christian view originally was Jewish with their Messiah having arrived. It later developed many variants and innovations as it scaled up to become the state religion of the previously Pagan Roman Empire. Somewhere in this process various great debates about the nature of the man who was alleged/believed by some to be the Jewish Messiah emerged along with political persecutions of dissent etc. The Islamic world view emerged and saw itself as the final stage in this essentially Semitic process. The leader first prayed towards Jerusalem before turning to Mecca after various betrayals and difficulties with local Jewish tribes. Many Jews, Christians and pagans entered Islam in those times. The more Jews entered the more ‘books’ and their codes became to dominate – including foods, circumcision, dominance of text/books, etc. The prophetic lines (and not just the Jewish ones) were recognised and considered finalised (in terms of the qualitative nature of their message for humans ‘going forward’).
5. So while some credibility is lent from the Islamic view to the person referred to as “Jesus” by the Christians, and even the chastity of his mother before his birth (something which is always not recognised in the Jewish renditions – e.g., think unwed lower class hairdresser and Roman soldier as the father), there is no recognition of what he was beyond a prophet (as in Jewish prophets of old) and a messenger (leaving a new ‘book’ of codes and praxis). At this level there is no difference between any of these biblical, and in some cases, historical characters.
6. Therefore, basically one of the major impasse in the aspects of this Christian narrative belongs to the “Christ” character theme. Much more work is required to understand what is being referred to here which seems to remain beyond the grasp of the Jews and the Muslims (and atheists, etc). Ultimately it is a metaphysical conjecture and belief system (perhaps experiential for some) which remains in a ‘cloud of unknowing’. This does not suit orthodoxy. Things need to be more pragmatic – e.g., ask how, in the Islamic view, the mother of Jesus became pregnant with him. No, strangely, it is not an infantile mystical ‘stork’ flying by the window. Rather, to my understanding, the male ‘Y’ factor was added by an angel becoming flesh as a man and then normal sexual processes ensured. I am happy to be corrected in this – they can even name the angel.
7. The point being (here, 2 thru 6) that at its inception all these dynamics were worked through in Islam and there can be no final reconciliation of the deeper points – there can only be a recognition of the fundamental differences and, at a social/economic level, an agreement (in writing) to live in peace (and ideally, harmony) through the terms of a negotiated contract/settlement. The Muslims are proved with a comprehensive framework to fairly negotiate this state of affairs. Perhaps if Mikhail Gorbachev had understood this fundamental point when dealing with his American/European ‘partners’ then the dissolution of the USSR, which the Saker apparently assisted in, would have gone differently and NATO would still be back in its box, so to speak.
@there can only be a recognition of the fundamental differences and, at a social/economic level, an agreement (in writing) to live in peace (and ideally, harmony) through the terms of a negotiated contract/settlement
This is the only path. The real differences are irreconcilable.
Slaves: slavery existed since ancient times — due to war or economic misfortune. St Thomas (the doubter) arrived in India (the area around formally named Madras) as a slave — there is a church there with an alleged tooth of said personage. He was eventually killed by Hindu priests — I guess hemlock was scare in those parts. Bilal al-Habashi was born a slave and one of the first Muslims to follow the Prophet of Islam — his call to prayer is remembered 5 times a day in Islamic domains. It was something that one got into and out of due to states of fortune. Apart from the usual inter-human bullying this state of affairs should not be confused with the industrial scale de-humanising that the European introduced into the Americas after Arab blockages and the costs to the Spanish aristocracy of waring and defeating the Moors of Spain.
“Polish king saved Roman Catholic based religion and dwellers of central Europe from annihilation by Turks.” — rather dramatic statement. What evidence have you that the Islamic Turks (formally the armies of the Monguls) would “annihilate” dwellers of central Europe? Broadening the tax base and introducing a new theology (as in Spain and everywhere else the hegemony du jour decides to operate) is in the Islamic codes — specifically not annihilation. I suggest you do a bit more research before sprouting off your neurotic anxieties. You might also check out the background and perhaps see that the Ottoman advances were reversed by domestic issue back home rather than hero Polish kings. But I guess the themes today are rising European national fascism and how Kiev makes the best chocolates!
Some very good questions, especially number two. Although I wish the Sheikh could have given more complete answers. I do hope there are more parts to come.
Thanks a million!
Interestingly enough I also have watched his videos in the past and find this sheikh’s ideas intriguing, even though he is largely unknown in the West. I don’t know how you’ve found him . Some people think alike :)
Freemasonry is the mother of all religions. Interestingly, it is no big secret anymore. Back in the day when JFK (the King) was ritually murdered in an open-air freemasonic temple, nobody could openly talk about this freemasonry stuff, but now, everybody talks about it on the History and Discovery channels on TV, all over the internet, and so on, without repercussion. You can talk about how all cops are Masons, and some even wear the symbolism on their uniforms in plain sight, like the Chicago PD and the cops in Britain. They really make it obvious. Left hand path, right hand path, Obama is left-handed, Bush I was left-handed, Clinton and Bush II were right-handed, the next president will be right-handed again. that’s all you need to know about him. or her. Left foot forward, right foot forward, black square, white square, that’s how you make progress. All our freedoms are gone, so it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks. Katy Perry made all this stuff seem so banal and low-brow with her whore of Babylon Super Bowl halftime show that nobody cares anymore if Deputy Barney Feif goes to Mt. Pilot to worship Satan. That’s what you expect.
Perhaps the Sheik would like to comment on this recent event: “Farkhunda, an Afghan woman who was beaten to death for ‘burning the Koran’ was wrongly accused”?
This would appear to resonate with another event recorded in Christian narrative of the deadly risks of upsetting the money changes outside temples.
“The attack appeared to have grown out of a dispute between Farkhunda, a veiled woman who had just finished a degree in religious studies and was preparing to take a teaching post, and men who sold amulets at Shah-Do Shamshera shrine, where the killing happened.
She regarded the amulet sellers as parasites and told women not to waste their money on them, friends and family said. Her father, Mohammed Nadir, said the men responded by making false accusations that she had torched a Koran.”
Three questions, if I may:
1. What does the Koran say is the penalty of such a crime against another Muslim?
2. Is there any different because of gender?
3. What does it say of today’s Islam (which is soon expected to exceed Christians in total number), and more importantly, how should those in the West view the subsequent process of Islamic ‘justice’ as it unfolds around this said Mosque and its cluster of its apparent murderous “amulet sellers”?
(Btw, if anyone wishes to help women and children in Afghanistan then here is a reliable means: http://mahbobaspromise.org/ )
I havent comented Sheik I H. before now, and moust of whats sayed is fully insynkc with the teachings.
Good to see, that some find it wurthy their time to give a more ballanced viue of Islam and the History of the world.
With I always like to say, that there is a massive amount of Arabic coins found in the Nordic lands dating back to 2500 years, from the middle of Eufrat, and belived to pas an even more ancient land, Yemen and Oman.
The TRUE home of the Bible/Torah.
I know there is a lott of confusion about the basics of their teachings, and what it implyes in simple terms.
But above all, I stress this, nothing of wurth comes easy, its a life long “batle” and the enemy is formiddable, our self. Its not going to be easyer, nope.
But when wisdom and knowlege accumulates, reality change, the more knowledge the better, this condtradicts no one I can think of, with no exeptions what so ever, and certanly not is Islam.
Self dispilin is alfa and omega, for ceaping your mind clear, not to indulg into anything that can destroy you, or your body, dont to indulg in the past, because it collors the future, reconsile and forgiving, is in the end, the gates whom we all must pass to gett ridd of what destorys our future, the past.
Our sight improves, our mind clrears, our thoghts becomes ance again the tool our creatore gave us when we where born.
The duality is the gift from our creatore to learn and prosper in wisdom from it, ballance and harmony is the mersuments witch our creatore wants.
Then, we can talk about the ultimate force of nature our consiousness and Love.
Do not judge, thats not up to you anyway so dont do it, it will only destroy the doer, not the other one, that one have its own Jihad to the path of rightchusness and wisdom to climb, as we all have, no exeption, what so ever, never ever forgett That.
Anything coming it to this realm is the bearer of the life force we all are a result of, and in the end is the will have with us as we leave this realm.
I dont know how to respond to incidents where this stoning took place, I dont even bother to locate it, other than to rear the teachings of the prophets and then tell me what they sayed.
Cutt and Paist is childish gibberish as we read on the pissoars in the old days, and similare.
I can do that to anything/anyone, incl Buddists.
And what do that tell us.
I dont apologize for what YOU do, so why sould any Muslim apaologize for what other insane humans does in the name of Islam.
Love Life, respect everything, this goes to marriged to, respect means to clrearly see the damages done to the other part in any “marriage”, and have nothing to do with Gender, but everything to do with respect of others and how do you handle it, violence is a gave sin.
A man that backs out of it, when HE realises the gave implications of HIS actions, I will show mercy upon Him whom shows Mercy upon Others.
And its an OBLIGATION of the comunety to deal with sutch issues, with ballance in their hart and soul, and give the crime done to the part comiting it, with no expetions what so ever.
Whas that hard.
“The things you do for yourself are gone when you are gone, but the things you do for others remain as your legacy.”
― Kalu Ndukwe Kalu
PS: I love it, africa has awaken.
Excellent response by sheikh Imran Hosein…I hope this will get the sincere Muslims and the sincere Orthodox Christians to reset their past and establish a greater level of friendship and trust towards each other.
I’m a 26 yr old Muslim in America and I can testify that Imran Hosein’s views are becoming quite popular with my generation.
I consider him a beloved teacher.
The post-truth era is not here just yet. Refactual’s intention is to clear the mix-up between truth as well as thoughts and opinions. Just how okay do we do? Check us out!