Greetings to the Saker community and readers.
It seems a long time ago when back in 2003, then Prime Minister Erdogan presented the “National Manifesto”, a document outlining his vision of establishing Turkey as a great power and set the target of achieving this by 2023 (100 years of Turkish Republic). A pillar of this plan was not only the modernization Turkey’s armed forces but the independence on all key defence sectors. To this extend, Turkey has invested huge sums of money in its internal Military-Industrial Complex (MIC)
The results of these investments were very evident this year in IDEF exhibition. IDEF is the bi-annual defence expo and the 2017 edition took place between May 9th – 12th in Istanbul. There, the cream of Turkey’s MIC was present, exhibiting all kinds of projects from assault rifles and mobile artillery to ballistic missiles (look up Roketsan Khan / Bora systems) and railguns. Below are a few videos with a small portion of what has been displayed:
Most notable projects by Turkey’s MIC presented in IDEF 2017 are:
- Kahn / Bora ballistic missile: Roketsan is already marketing the Khan missile and has Bora development well under way. Khan is a short range ballistic missile (SRBM) with reported range around 280Kmwhile Bora is rumoured to have a target range in excess of 1000Km. To showcase the maturity of the system, Roketsan performed a demo launch during the duration of the IDEF 2017: https://youtu.be/8uCe70aG8zU
A crude calculation by a Turkish journalist of how far current ballistic missiles by Turkey can hit. Note the mistake that the launchers are assumed to be at the “front line”, namely right on Turkey’s borders – ballistic missiles are never used in such manner.
- TF-X stealth fighter: Turkey plans to use its expertise gained by its status as partner in the F-35 to build an indigenous stealth fighter plane. To say that this is not a small task is an understatement; very few countries can build decent fighter planes and even fewer decent jet engines. As an example, China with all its industrial, financial and technological might still struggles to design and build indigenous capable engines for its fighters. Turkish leadership understands this which is why they approached the UK and signed an agreement for cooperation on the matter. Also note that Turkey, under the F-35 programme is scheduled to be the sole engine maintainer for all users of the type in Europe; something for which the UK already protested and plans to setup their own maintenance centre. Another aspect for this programme is that Aseslan is developing a GaN (Gallium Nitrate) AESA radar for use with the plane. This type of radar is considered cutting edge.
- Short and medium range air to air missiles: Turkey wants to augment at first stage and ultimately replace the AIM-9 and AIM-120 missiles in its inventory with indigenous missiles so that it will no longer depend to the good will of the USA for export of the latest models and for support of the current inventory. The problems here are astute: it takes a lot of expertise to build a modern air to air missile, especially its guidance system. Equally difficult will be integration to current aircraft in Turkey’s inventory; it is impossible for the US to release the source code of the F-16 (let alone the F-35) to the Turks so that they can upgrade the software on the planes for use with their missiles. Most likely Turkey will probably work around this by either using the “generic air to air missile” mode or by telling the computer that a known missile is loaded (say AIM-9) whereas the Turkish equivalent is on the plane. These work arounds however will have an impact on the missile performance. The very fact that Turkey is trying to develop a missile of the AIM-120 class has raised quite a few eyebrows around the world.
- TF4500 stealth frigate, MilDEN submarines and TCG Anadolu: More ambitious programmes, this time for the Turkish navy. The idea here is to use the experience gained by building Type 214 AIP submarines for the Turkish navy and use that experience to design and build a new class of boats. Another herculean task for Turkey’s MIC; building a submarine under license and designing one on your own are two different kinds of animal. However, Germany wants to use the shipyards in Turkey to build another additional Type 214 subs should they get an order from Indonesia. If that happens, essentially the production line for subs will stay open and funds will come in to be used on the MilDEN programme. Pakistan also agreed to buy four MILGEM Block I corvettes from Turkey. As for the TCG Anadolu it is essentially a Navantia LPD/LHD design which Turkey plans to modify to a light aircraft carrier (you can see images of the model ship here: https://www.ptisidiastima.com/idef-2017-tcg-anadolu/).
- Altay tank entering low production: Here Turkey faces significant problems with the powerplants for these tanks. Initially they were going to use MTU engines however after the deterioration in Turkey’s relationship with the EU in recent months there is an informal embargo on export licenses for military technology. Also, Turkey’s negotiations with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries failed to reach an agreement. Therefore, Turkey turned to Ukraine and around March signed an MoU for the supply of a Ukrainian engine for the Altay with emphasis on unconditional export rights.
What could be observed in IDEF 2017 is the willingness of Turkey to direct a significant portion of its economy in the defence industry and its ambition to become a potential super power. To secure at least partial funding, Turkey is presenting itself as the leading Muslim arms producer and exporter, targeting Muslim countries which either do not have the technology to produce such systems or are otherwise unable to procure directly from the source in which case Turkey acts as the middle man.
Turkey’s desire to expedite R&D is evident by trying to get as much technology transfer for each weapons system it purchases as well as full resale rights. Moreover, Turkey is smart enough to draw in countries with experience that at the same time are in need of friends / cash, like Ukraine with which they signed a deal in IDEF 2017 for joint development of a maritime aircraft based on An-132. It is no secret that Turkey’s recent love with the S400 air defence complex is stemming from a desire to create a copy (the feasibility of such a task is highly questionable). Previous attempts to buy the Chinese HQ-9 failed and Lockheed did offer to Turkey the MEADS system to cover its long-range air defence needs. One has to question Turkey’s motives behind the attempts at HQ-9 and now the S400. While the S400 is a superb complex, for a country with an integrated air defence system solely built using NATO standards and equipment S400 will stick out like a sore thumb due to the inability to connect with the rest of the network.
Turkey is also actively trying to repatriate Turkish scientists and engineers that work abroad and the involvement of its universities and research centres in these projects is standard practise; Aseslan for example is teaming up with Bilkent university for the AESA radar it develops I mentioned earlier. This practice has long term benefits as it helps to create a core of competent engineers familiar with the workings of the MIC and the projects under way.
The bet for Turkey is to find a balance between ambition and reality; after all history has proven that funds and time are not limitless and the perception of Turkey by its neighbours, its friends and its allies will not always stay the same. As a conclusion, these ambitions go beyond Erdogan; no man lives forever and considering his age he probably has another 15-20 years on front of him being a functional leader. Most of these programmes will be just entering production by that time (if at all) therefore one should focus on Turkey’s long term strategy.
so I guess the bottom line is that hopefully Turkey aligns completely with Russia – because otherwise they’re going to be a radical particle that nobody knows what the hell they’re gonna do next – like North Korea but worse
What exactly do you have against North Korea Anne?
The North Koreans are entirely predictable, are threatening nobody, have said they will only fight if attacked by the vast US army and have been saying for years that they will give up nuclear weapons if they get a peace deal from the US they can trust and if the US stop it’s endless drills rehearsing destroying their country.
The US has been threatening NK with destruction from way before the country had nuclear weapons. So the nukes issue is a red herring an it is only nuclear weapons that keeps them from ending up like Iraq. The hatred of NK is because it is not controlled by the Zionist Rothschilds banking system.
Kim’s first duty is to protect his country and he is quite rightly testing his only means of survival to ensure the weapons will work. What exactly do you think the North Koreans should do?
” There’s no country in the world that needs nuclear weapons more than North Korea. Brainwashed Americans, who get their news from FOX or CNN, may differ on this point, but if a hostile nation deployed carrier strike-groups off the coast of California while conducting massive war games on the Mexican border (with the express intention of scaring the shit of people) then they might see things differently. They might see the value of having a few nuclear weapons to deter that hostile nation from doing something really stupid”
Also from the same article –
““In the early 1950s, during the Korean War, the US dropped more bombs on NorthKorea than it had dropped in the entire Pacific theater during World War II. This carpet bombing, which included 32,000 tons of napalm, often deliberately targeted civilian as well as military targets, devastating the country far beyond what was necessary to fight the war. Whole cities were destroyed, with many thousands of innocent civilians killed and many more left homeless and hungry….”
According to US journalist Blaine Harden: “Over a period of three years or so, we killed off — what — 20 percent of the population,” Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command during the Korean War, told the Office of Air Force History in 1984. Dean Rusk, a supporter of the war and later secretary of state, said the United States bombed “everything that moved in North Korea, every brick standing on top of another.” After running low on urban targets, U.S. bombers destroyed hydroelectric and irrigation dams in the later stages of the war, flooding farmland and destroying crops……
I think what you might have said, Anne, is that it is the world’s number one murderous bully state that is unpredictable a country presently engaged in the slaughter of Iraqis and Syrian civilians.
If you want some truth abut the North Korean situation I recommend the following 2 articles –
This entre “crisis” is US manufactured and would end today if the US packed up it’s nuclear weapons and it’s army and went home.
Stand up for North Korea’s rights to self determination, multi polarity and let’s solve problems on the basis of respect, dialogue and international law. As the articles above show the USA is completely incapable of dialogue with anyone and neither gives a fig about international law or human life.
How the US was defeated in Korea and ww3 prevented – a great read and something the US doesn’t like to think about – they love murdering defenceless people but up against an equal they run away.
I’m in agreement with everything that you wrote.
The rage today is all about what is termed “fake news”, by those trying to perpetuate their monopolization of information, and no one is talking about the “fake history” that has been drip-fed to the masses for generations.
Regularly, you have to suffer overhearing people railing about:
the “crazy N. Koreans”,
the “Mad Mullahs in Iran”,
the “Butcher Assad” or
the “Poor Israelis”,
all of it total bull shit gleaned from the MSM.
So the ignorance displayed by many is understandable though unacceptable.
Americans in particular have been deliberately dumbed-downed for years, and are today, collectively so ignorant, they are almost beyond redemption.
Sorry, but what’s wrong saying that North Korea is unpredictable? Russia and China do not seem to have a handle on Kim Jong-Un…
From The Duran:
“China and Russia are increasingly looking like the most mature powers in the region, urging restraint from both highly bellicose sides”
Russia supports UNSC calling upon North Korea to STOP missile tests (this was back in April)
“China’s President Xi Jinping has never met North Korea’s Kim Jong-Un since the latter came to power nearly six years ago. It is increasingly evidently, too, that Beijing and Pyongyang are not on the same page when it comes to the nuclear issue.”
“Earlier this month, there was even an editorial carried by Chinese state-run media warning that China might be forced to launch its own military strikes on North Korea if it comes down to the “bottom line” of preserving stability and security in the region”
What does “unpredictable” mean. I think they are very predictable. If you threaten or attack them,they will fight back. That isn’t so hard to predict. Usually the words “unpredictable,rogue,etc” are used to mean countries that don’t “obey” the West. I think they like to say “Putin is unpredictable” or “lives in a different universe”. Russia is a capitalist country today. With a lot of people trying to appease the West when they can. So its not a surprise to see the Russian press doesn’t like NK either. Russia has a serious problem understanding “friends from enemies” sometimes. Unlike NK who has never turned on Russia ,every single Western state would sell Russia for a price to the US. Yet many times Russia sides with them over their long time friends.Not a good policy at all. One if they hope to survive ,needs to be changed,and quickly.
Actually, I was referring to their unpredictable behaviour towards China, their main benefactor and trading partner (Sputniknews link) not to the US, who are threatening them.
But since you bring it up: NO, I do not believe that if someone is threatening you that fighting back is the ONLY logical or predictable option: Have you hear of fight-or- flight? Sometimes there is both fight & flight but only after an increased awareness and observation of the threat, or a combination of flight (to higher ground) & observation then fight.
In a complex political environment I would hope that smart politicians would explore the full range of possible responses. I do not see not- fighting back immediately as “appeasement” . In fact I see it as a form or recklessness..but that’s just my personal opinion.
China along with Russia is having the same problem with deciding on friends and enemies. Most people think the NK and China relationship only benefits NK. That is an error. Without NK being where they are,China would have US military bases, including missile bases right on the Chinese border. Already the THADD missiles are seen as a threat to China and Russia. Imagine them,not in the southern parts of SK as they are now. But instead in far northern NK right on the Chinese and Russian borders. North Korea is the “only” Asian ally of any kind China has. So no,its not only NK that benefits from their relationship.
As to the “fight or flight” idea. That does come into play with individual people. But its not viable for nations. Its not like you can pick your country up and run away. When you are being attacked you resist or surrender. Sometimes you lose in resisting. And sometimes you win. We can look back in history for examples of both. But I wonder if Russians would have thought surrendering to Napoleon,or Hitler, would have been an acceptable solution in those times. Certainly they could have avoided devastating wars by doing that. But at the cost of honor,and becoming slaves to France and Germany.The same choice awaits China,North Korea,Syria,Iran,and Russia in today’s World.
I am in between Serbian girl and UB1.
Had China did not sign the military pack, and did not fight for the north Korean, then UB1 would be right. Since China fought a war for Korea and signed the pack to fight war, Kim V3’s behavior is nothing less than totally paranoid.
Kim V3 takes China for granted since he know no matter what he does, China has no choice but prop him up. He killed all people that are close to Beijing (so there is no alternative to him for China in NK), and use his money for Weapon. With Chinese security guarantee, he could have work on economy first as Cambodia, Laos, and currently Philippines and Myanmar.
So I see Kim has his head screwed on wrong. But no something unexpected. China give north Korea too much free stuff. As a ancient chines expression goes that you give some one a little at time of need, they think you saved their live; when you give some one a lot, you make a enemy. This is a classic case.
You cannot just apply human or animal psychology, neurology or physiology to geopolitical strategy.
There is only one simpler fact right now. You either have a very huge stick to defend yourself with or you be eaten alive by the Western-Zionist alliance…..assuming you do not want to be Western-Zionist slaves.
Looking to Mother Nature to determine how to handle complex, interdependent and non-linear relationships is not my idea but that of economist and philosopher Nicholas Nassim Taleb who wrote “Black Swan” and “Fooled by Randomness”. He brilliantly discusses globalisation and geopolitics by looking at nature. Nature is the most robust system out there.
Regarding your big stick advice what happens if you don’t have that big stick? You’re back to square 1: heightened observation and flight (metaphorically i.e. avoiding battle) choosing time and tactic of your attack. Nature always has an answer.
North Korea: The Grand Deception Revealed
“… In 2003 I had, along with some American lawyers, members of the National Lawyers Guild, the good fortune to be able to travel to North Korea, that is the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea, in order to experience first hand that nation, its socialist system and its people. The joint report issued on our return was titled “The Grand Deception Revealed.” That title was chosen because we discovered that the negative western propaganda myth about North Korea is a grand deception designed to blind the peoples of the world to the accomplishments of the Korean people in the north who have successfully created their own circumstances, their own independent socio-economic system, based on socialist principles, free of the domination of the western powers.
… … … …”
A must read article.
Like North Korea but worse?
North Korea is one of the most prideful countries in the world, what the hell are u talking about.
When Israel criticized them because of missile tests North Korea responded with that they are the scumbags of the region and that they are terrorizing the Palestinians.
Except for a couple of countries, like Iran, no one else has the balls to tell them that.
And Turkey, recently also criticized North Korea for missile tests, u can read it on the Turkish foreign Ministry website:
Why would Turkey do that? To please the USA and Israel? I can see no other reason.
Also Turkey will never align completely with Russia, Turks are natural, historical enemies of Russia.
The only reason they are cozying up to Russia and almost licking Russia’s feet is that their relations with the West are deteriorating. And also their old plans for the region (remember some years ago many Russian officals told about Turkish Ottoman dreams/ambitions) have thus far all failed.
I will say this and just believe me on that.
“If” the West (NATO or whatever aggressor) decide to unleash their military force on the brave Syrian army and decide to remove Assad themselves (like murdering Khaddafi), of course making sure not to hit the Russian military, then, then i guarantee u Turkey will jump in the action and totally support NATO. Trust me on that.
God willing it will not happen.
But if such a thing would happen, them trust me, the Turks would immediately join them (the agressors).
Nothing personal but I’m unsure why it is people have not understood that the need to remove Assad is gone. Done. Finito.
He can lead whatever is left of Syria after it’s chopped up. it will mean nothing to no one but Russia, perhaps? And the Syrians that remain loyal to his government or the party.
Turks and Russians have been both allies and enemies.
You would guarantee that Turkey would jump into action with NATO? You’d guarantee that?
I’m not so sure.
Syria is not being chopped up but liberated and it’s sovereignty and the fact that it marks the end of the rolling programme of US hegemony is of great importance not only to the Syrians but also to Iran, Iraq, Russia, China and indeed dozens of small countries under the US gun.
And the courage of the Syrians has inspired many many people to see that the Zionist global domination plan can be stopped – and defeated.
Have faith Penny, it is slow and painful I agree but we are gaining ground and the result is that the west is now in total chaos and disarray no to mention the brink of financial collapse.
Marco: I hope you’re right. I really do. I’ve covered Syria since 2011, being the first blogger out of the gate (to my knowledge) talking about the destabilization campaign.
Heck I was out there before Ziad got started.
That said- the type of action ongoing in Syria is intended to balkanize the nation and the people- It seems sensible much distrust has been sown- that bodes badly for the populace
The Kurds have stated publicly they are taking 30 percent of Syrian territory- They’ve already taken a vast swathe they never resided in, nor were they a major percentage of the population in.
If Syria under Assad attempts to take back any of this territory the wrath will be great.
The global community will come down on the Syrian state- the masses will carry one about wrongs righted etc., So heavily brainwashed are the masses via the media, social and otherwise. Israel’s minions have done their work well in forming opinions favourable to themselves under the guise of being favourable to the ‘downtrodden’ Kurds
Israel is looking to have annexed Golan bequeathed to them and I would not put it past Trump to do just that- they will then need a “buffer zone” in the rest of Golan.. They’ve already been working towards it.
Turkey’s staying put as long as Israel 2.0 is granted in Northern Syria
The US and France have military bases already present in northern Syria-
It’s painful. Every bit of it. Sadly, I got too emotionally tied up in Syria. Which makes having to write about Syria’s state of being that much worse- I’m trying to be more pragmatic about it all
That all said, I want you to be right and me to be another pessimist, much like Saker :)
I have read with great interest the conversations in the comment sections, especially with comments between Penny and Uncle Bob and the rest who participated.
The history, the role and the strategical location of Turkey in this whole confrontation with the Western-Zionist Alliance is of absolute monumental importance.
I have spoken to several Turkish and Kurdish friends who are scientists and scholars from different ideological backgrounds: Islamists, Communists, Nationalists…..some support Erdogan some oppose him and others are neutral.
All of them are in agreement (even Erdogan supporters) that the main issue with Turkey is that its leader President Erdogan is not a rational actor in the sense that he is protecting and looking after the long term interests of Turkey. And I was very surprised that even Erdogan supports acknowledged this point to me.
The only thing that motivates Erdogan’s decision making is his ambition to become more powerful (consolidate power) and to stay alive (to prolong his power).
– Until 2011 Erdogan called Bashar al Assad his “brother”.
– Erdogan got on stage with Kurdish leaders, holding hands and announcing the reconciliation process with the Kurds.
– Erdogan initiated himself the truce and agreements with the Kurds, sending them into parliament.
– Once Erdogan felt that he was losing majority in the parliament and the Kurds were gaining more freedom and thus more power, Erdogan knew his power was threatened and started to negate on the agreements and process he started himself.
– Erdogan helped in removing Qaddafi and destroying Libya.
– He threw himself into the Syrian war by funneling the rebels and supporting them and he reignited the war with the Kurds.
– Erdogan cleared his entire opposition and fired more than 100.000 people across all sectors of Turkish society.
Everything he does has one goal only = his power and his survival…..everything and everyone (Davidoglu = the Ottoman resurgence theorist, Abdullah Gul, etc.) else are second.
Erdogan has the power to single handily make or break Turkey……..and his fascistic dictatorial approach and the captivation of the Turkish masses to his power makes the Turkish story a very interesting one to follow.
Agree with you. BTW when Trump executed the missile attack on the Syrian base, Erdogan was tottally supportive and if a remember correctly was even suggesting a no flight zone over Syria by NATO.
Turkey wanted a ‘safe zone’ not a no fly zone exactly-
The US never went along with Turkey’s version of the safe zone- For what should be obvious reasons- Supporting/arming/training the PKK/YPG Kurds as the steal Syrian territory.
Hence Turkey created their own block/safe zone- At least they’ve moved some displaced Syrians back into it! As the US with their PKK/YPG proxies continue displacing them
Apples and oranges are different fruits
The Turkish occupied areas are “safe-zones” for Turkish backed anti-Assad jihadis. I don’t see that is any different than the Kurdish anti-Assad areas. They are both anti-Assad,and outside the control of the legal Syrian government. In the long-run the Turkish interests are more of a threat to Syria than the Kurds.
Uncle Bob, you’ve been a long term apologist for the PKK so why would I expect you to say anything different then what you have stated?
” In the long-run the Turkish interests are more of a threat to Syria than the Kurds”
To which I say, bullbiscuits. Had Turkey ever wanted to take Syrian territory they’ve had many, many, many years to do so. They didn’t. Not even when Ocalan was given safe haven in Syria did Turkey enter Syria-
So back your statement up with some facts to support it.
-The PKK backed by the US is the main threat to Syria’s territorial integrity and stability over the long term- They have allowed the building of US/French bases which can be employed against what remains of the Syrian state- They have stolen the main water and oil resources and much of the prime farm land- leaving Syria financially weak and dependent on a terror organization which is all PKK/YPG is for their water and food supply. Water to Aleppo city specifically. Food in general
It is PKK/YPG/Israeli/US interests that have created the conditions Syria is in present day. It is their interests which leave Syria as a destroyed state.
None of that has anything to do with Turkey- which is the next target
And is the reason for much spin and negative presentation of Turkey and it’s people
Uncle Bob1 ” In the long-run the Turkish interests are more of a threat to Syria than the Kurds”
To take this further the abundance of arms delivered to PKK/YPG by the US is a threat to Turkey and it’s territorial integrity- by design- As intended.
In fact arms delivered to YPG/PKK in Syria have found their way to PKK in Turkey, already!
Which makes very clear the long term goals for Syria, balkanization and the creation of an Israel 2.0, are intended and designed to threaten the Turkish state-
The endless weapons supply to the YPG/PKK. The presence of the Israeli/US/UK axis, military bases etc., present the most prominent and imminent destabilizing force in the region.
RE: the Turkish zone in Syria- As a response to the Kurdish created state- That’s abundantly clear- No PKK/YPG annexed territory – No Turkish buffer zone
Again the problem here lies with the US/Israel/UK instigation to remake the region- MENA
An agenda the Russians are abundantly aware of.
As are the Turks.
Currently, US is on the move to create a State of Kurdistan or Rojava, in the territories recaptured by the Kurds from ISIS/L. A Kurdistan flag has been raised in Kirkuk which indicates a green light from Baghdad, while Trump is arming the Kurds [SDF and YPG is part of it] to advance on Raqqa with prospects of Kurd’s annexation of northeast Syria. They have recaptured Syria’s Tabqa on their way toward Raqqa.
Putin has forged an alliance with the same Kurds, in northwest Syria, from Manbij to Afrin, to prevent Kurdistan from taking over whole of northern Syria. By giving Kurds a Federal status under Damascus, Putin has reassured Erdogan that Russian Alliance would not pose any threat to Ankara. It is no coincidence that Gazprom has started the construction of offshore Turkish Stream gas pipeline for Europe’s NABUCCO in the Black Sea.
If you look at how Sykes-Picot have drawn the map of the Middle East after World War I, a full independent status for Kurdistan, today, in the Levant, would mean a detonation of a nuclear bomb. That is because half of Turkey is Kurds. I mean, who can prevent Turkish Kurds from claiming almost half of Turkey? In other words, US has trapped Turkey into attacking Kurds beyond the Turkish-Syrian border, in the hope that it will impede Russian interest in Syria and become a cause of conflict between Turkey and Russia. And Turkey is a member of NATO, so that would mean a Third World War. Erdogan’s moment of truth has come, and yes, the modern Zionist’s western empires,Pax Brittanica and Pax Americana, never worry about the fate of their vassals. Pax Britanica has given to secular Turks the so called “modern” State of Turkey in return of the dismantling of the Caliphate State, the Ottoman Empire?
Penny, it would seem that Turkish interests would be best served by an alliance with the Arab States of Iraq and Syria (as well as Iran) against the Kurds. The Kurds pose the same risks to those States as to Turkey. Why, in your opinion, does this not seem to be the ongoing status quo or trend?
I forgot one thing.
Iranian president Hassan Rouhani, just recently said that the ones really fighting ISIS are:
Syria, Russia, Iranian personnel (dont remember how exactly he worded that) and Hezbollah.
He didnt mention Turkey. Repeat: He did NOT mention Turkey.
Not to forget, Turkey took in almost 3 million Syrian refuges. I do not believe any other other countries took in that many refuge.
Turkey can never be trusted!
I still don’t understand how Russia plans to sell the S400 to a NATO partner? In fact, I still do not understand how Russia does economic deals with Turkey.
Re economic deals, Turkey is energy-poor. Russia is happy to sell them their gas. It’s transactional. They could also get it from Iran.
Just some clarifications:
Turkish F-16s use indigenous Turkish made mission computers and hence can integrate any weapon they choose to do so. The Turkish F-16s currently already use other Turkish made weapons such as the SOM stand-off cruise missiles, HGK Guidance Kits, NEB Bunker busters etc
Nothing but education, education and more education can bring Turkey from it’s constant medieval dwellings to the 21st century, certainly not weapons and other means of warfare.
Right now it looks like they (again) have chosen the blood stained path that brought them all the way from Mongolia to these Greek, Armenian and Kurdish pastures they occupy now, in the first place. The original inhabitants are expelled, genocided and killed The few remaining lives in misery.
Erdogan lives in the wrong century. He will not be able to bring back the hated Ottoman empire, only death and destruction on his neighbours and ultimately Turkey itself. maybe that’s what it takes, a certain civil war. backstabbers should b´never ever be trusted
“education, education and more education”
You do mean indoctrination, right?
“The bet for Turkey is to find a balance between ambition and reality; after all history has proven that funds and time are not limitless and the perception of Turkey by its neighbours, its friends and its allies will not always stay the same”
Thanks Kakaouskia- well said. If they can do that it will bode well for the entire region.
“One has to question Turkey’s motives behind the attempts at HQ-9 and now the S400. While the S400 is a superb complex, for a country with an integrated air defence system solely built using NATO standards and equipment S400 will stick out like a sore thumb due to the inability to connect with the rest of the network.”
Yes and one also has to question how effective these weapons are in and of themselves and how well they are used in combat. For example, the Saudi military
Erdogan is erratic and unreliable, and incapable of taking the tough decisions necessary to take Turkey out of the West’ orbit.
He has been told that Turkey will never be a member of the EU. yet he persists inspite of the insults.
Ukraine stands a better chance of gaining EU membership over Turkey, yet Erdogan remains hopeful.
On one day you’ll find him cooperating with Russia and Iran, and a day later you will hear him calling Assad a war criminal and inviting the US to lay waste to Syria.
All this even when the US and the EU conspired against him last summer with the failed coup.
Turkey has huge potential and if it joins with Russia, Iran and China it would be unstoppable.
However a leader like Erdogan comes with too much unpredictability.
All verily true.
And now this:
“Russia ready to supply S-400 missile systems to Turkey – Putin”, https://www.rt.com/news/390462-russia-to-supply-s-400-turkey/
“Putinistas'” obligatory rationalisations notwithstanding … Putin is completely out of his marbles.
The Otomans were/are a genocidal bunch who used crude methods such as impalement to instil fear into people who refused to convert to Islam. Turks were impaling Serbs as late as 1814 when they impaled St Avakum in Belgrade.
So I wish the Turks all the best but cannot help myself but to wish that such a country never existed. To a crazy guy with a hammer everything resembles a nail. So will the Turks if they succeed in re-arming and developing new weapon systems be roaming the area of the Black Sea, Balkans, and Levant (objectively, this is their maximum reach) trying to hammer anything and anyone. Erdogan is frustrated, unscrupulous, unpredictable, lying and untrustworthy and such a person is best had without sophisticated means of destruction. The same can be said about any and every POTUS.
However, all the above being said, we somehow survived 400 years of Otoman rule but I don’t think we will survive another 30 years of economic, emotional and physical destruction perpetrated by the US/EU/Banker mafia.
To me, the air-to-air missile is more important than the fighter jet. If you’ve got a missile that can kill enemy planes at a longer range than the enemy missiles can kill you, then you launch before the enemy ever gets within range of their missiles, then turn around and fly home.
Journalists seem to concentrate on the planes. But the plane is mainly just a missile carrier and launch platform for the AAM’s. Its nice to be fast enough to turn around and run away after launching its missiles, but beyond that the performance of the plane doesn’t really matter. Air-to-air combat has changed a lot since Snoopy used his Sopwith Camel to battle the Red Barron.
The Khan missilie has a range of around 280 km. This is not impressive. This is less than a World-War II era V2 rocket (320 km).
Basically, you are saying that everyone in the Middle East is now building Scud clones; if Yemen can do it, Turkey can, too. The only difference is that Turkey puts the rocket in a rectangular box, to make it look more modern, more like a US Patriot missile.
280km is the “announced”/”for import” value, not showing its own currnet capability in order not to unease someone as of now :)