Translation by Scott Humor

Radio Sputnik talk show guests Fuad Abbasov and Avigdor Eskin on the Kurdish referendum for independence.

The Sputnik Radio refused to air this interview, however the Israeli journalist Avigdor Eskin latter attacked Fuad Abbasov in media.



Radio talk-show host: “Regarding the referendum in Kurdistan and looking at the situation from different points of view. What are the prognosis for Iraqi Kurdistan? Are we talking about independence, or was the referendum just an occasion to have leverage in the negotiations with the central authorities of Iraq?  We are talking to our guests in the Sputnik Studio: Israeli publicists Avigdor Eskin…”

A.E. “Good day.”

Radio talk-show host: “… and the head of the Center of Information Initiative and the managing editor of MISRA TV channel journalist from Turkey, Fuad Abbasov”

F.A.: “There is no reason to congratulate anyone, because there is no such entity as Kurdistan. There is the Kurdish Authorities of Northern Iraq with Barzani as the ruler. He uses his own people to stay in power as long as possible. That’s all what is happening in this region today. What you are saying are just words that have no base in reality. It’s all being done to continue to bargain with the world community about oil, oil logistics, and most importantly is that it’s not the Kurds, or Kurdistan, but the United State that rule everything in this region.

You accuse me of being poorly informed. I am ready to rebuttal this opinion. You’re saying what everyone knows.”

A.E.: “I could be wrong.”

F.A.: “You are saying that “Russia invested money” and “America didn’t support.” This is just information for an average consumer. I am going to tell you what no one is talking about.”

A.E.: “How do you know that? Is your source the Turkish intelligence?”

F.A.:”Let’s say that my source is the Turkish intelligence, if you like.”

A.E.: “You said that. It wasn’t me who caught you as a Turkish agent.”

F.A.: “Look. During the so called “referendum” for the so-called “independence” of so-called “Kurdistan,” 15,000 American troops, fully armed, controlled the situation. Several hundred journalists, invited by the Americans, were present during this so called “referendum.”

A.E.: “There is no 15,000 American troops there. They aren’t there.”

F.A.: “I can provide you with the details of how many of the American troops were present in Eibel, and how many in other towns. Every town there is being under the control by the American troops who are fully armed.  The United State invited several hundred international observers. All ballot boxes were delivered from Israel and also were under the American control.”

A.E.: “Why?”

F.A.: “”Because, the US and Israel have a common strategy.”

A.E.: “Don’t bring American into this. We have  relationship with Kurds since the 1960s.”

[It’s notable how this Israeli journalists uses “we” referring to the USSR, Russia and Israel, interchangeably.]

F.A.: “Let me finish.”

A.E.: “Sure. I am just explaining to you.”

F.A.: “You are interrupting me and I am losing my train of thought. Stop interrupting me, let me finish. Right now the most important thing is that the Americans want to control the Kurds throughout the Middle East. Their aim is to destroy Iraq, Iran, and to dismember Turkey, and later to attack Russia. I am talking about this everywhere, so you all should be ready. Maybe in ten years or twenty years, but this all will be taking place. It’s called The Project for the New Middle East introduced by then the U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice during her speech in Tel Aviv in 2006.

This project include a creation of the Kurdish state in the Middle East. They want to use the Kurds to dismember the countries that have Kurdish population, and after that to attack Iran. And from there to move towards Russia.

A.E.: “This project doesn’t exist. It’s fake news and disinformation. Even the Turkish intelligence could tell you this. You can say anything, mumble anything…Give me a link! Right this second, give me a link to this information!”

F.A.: “These kind of things are not being published on the internet.”

A.E.: “This is so stupid.”

Radio host: “OK, let’s assume that there is some big plan.”

F.A.: “It’s call the Big Middle Eastern Project.”

A.E.: “Where is it published? Tell me where? Maybe it’s called the “small Middle Eastern project”? I say that there is a “small Middle Eastern project.'”

Radio host: “Can you explain about the 2005 referendum. What did go wrong then.”

F.A.: “These sort of referendums are being held time to time. They had them in the nineteenth century, and in the twentieth century. During the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, these referendums were used, and the same sort of referendums were used to destroy the Russian Empire. It’s all being done with one flag in their hands and a drum on their neck. It’s called “the nations’ right for self-determination.” No one wants to talk about the principles of the territorial integrity of the countries. I am in support of the principle of the territorial integrity.  Turkey stands for the territorial integrity of the states. Why? Because fifteen million Kurds live on the territory of Turkey. Turkey has the biggest population of the Kurds on earth located in the North Eastern part of Turkey. At the time when the Turkish Empire was ruined and the Turkish republic was created, they placed the Kurdish population like a mine, which was to explode after fifty or hundred years, when the problem of the independence of the Kurds would arise.

Holding this flag of independence in their hands people like Masoud Barzani and Mustafa Barzani will dismember Turkey. Then, they will dismember Syria and Iran and will create chaos and they will control this chaos. They also will control all the transfer routes for oil and gas. These all according to the plan, that I just mentioned.

Over hundred nationalities live in Russia. Let’s give to all of them autonomy and independence.”

A.E.: “That’s wonderful. There are twenty-two Arab states in the Middle East. I am not even talking about Iran and Turkey, but twenty-two Arab states. One Kurdish state would be hygienic for all them.”

F.A.: “I am going to say just one thing and then you can continue. These twenty-two Arab states cannot get along with Israel. That’s why Israel needs fresh power and fresh blood. And that blood is Kurdish blood. The blood of the Kurdish people who are being used against Turkey and for hegemonic rule over the Middle East. That’s why Israel first and foremost supports the Kurdish separatism historically and today.”

F.A.: “The entire world knows that Erdogan wanted to have close relations with Barzani. He was invited to the Presidential Palace and they placed the Kurdish flag. Previous president couldn’t imagine this in their nightmares. Turkish military were against this, but Erdogan wanted maximum closeness with the Kurdish authorities, with the Northern Iraq and Barzani. Two thousand Turkish companies work now in Northern Iraq. They are not only operating oil rigs and the transportation of oil, but they also provide services and food. The largest part of all consumer goods for Iraq is being transported though Turkey. This was done to have friendly relations, to live in peace. All of these was provided on one condition that the Kurds won’t go on demanding their independence, and provide no support for PKK.

When last year Syrian Kurds stated talking about their own referendum of independence, Turkey invaded their territory and all the conversations about a referendum stopped.  The Syrian Kurds wanted the same sort of independence as the Iraqi Kurds. They held the referendum, but Turkey brought its troops and they stopped demanding independence. Why? Because Turkey doesn’t want to have some kind of enclaves, referendums, new fake states on its borders. Why? Because this fifteen million Kurds in Turkey will want to unite with those two, five or ten million people who orchestrated this mess.”

A.E.: “Or maybe they all will move there, to their new motherland?”

F.A.: “Now, all the established economic relations will be destroyed. This will impact not Barzani, but the Kurdish people who are being used by Barzani for his personal reasons. Ankara and Moscow lost control over Barzani. Barzani takes the American side.”

A.E.: “It’s all completely opposite.”

F.A.: “Why is it opposite? We see that everything that takes place today in the Authorities of the Northern Iraq contradicts the politics of Russia and Turkey. ”

A.E. “Don’t speak for Russia, please. The Foreign Minister of Russia says that Russia will recognize the independent Kurdistan within the international law framework.”

F.A. “For now, there was no such mandate.”

A.E. “But they didn’t declare their independence, yet”

F.A. “As for the American policy towards Turkey, America arms the Kurds against Turkey.”

A.E. “But Turkey is a NATO member, damn it. Israel is not even a NATO member.”

F.A. “America arms the Kurds not with the Kalashnikovs, as it was with the Working party of Kurdistan, but with the Stringers that can be used against the helicopters.”

A.E. “To use against ISIS.”

F.A.: “As if against ISIS, but the Turkish army finds the American weapons being used by the Kurds against the Turkish army in the South East of Turkey. Same American weapons are being used against the Turkish army in the North of Syria.  It’s looks like the Kurds are fighting against Daesh, as if they fight against the ISIS that America created, but with the same American weapons Turkey finds on its border. Every time the Turkish army clashes with the Kurdish terrorists, American weapons show up. Why is America arming the Kurds? It does this not only to fight against the ISIS, but also against Turkey. We all know that Turkey is freeing itself from American control… ”

A.E. “Turkey is a NATO member, officially.”

F.A. “Turkey will remain in NATO until other NATO members kick it out. Turkey will use its NATO membership as a trump card. It’s very important. As for the territorial integrity, if you support it, don’t touch Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Spain and Iraq. Let all those countries to remain as they are. ”

Radio host: “Let’s discuss the results of the referendum and what to expect next.”

F.A. “The result of these sort of referendums are clear to everyone, it’s the dismemberment of the sovereign states, which is the aim of the United States. They are the ocean away from us. They are absolutely safe. They are not under any threat of dismemberment. On the Middle East they are looking to dismember Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. Let’s keep in mind also that Russia is a multi-national state. Any ethnicity in Russia can start acting like the Kurds. Even those Kurds who live on the territory of Russia.”

A.E.: “What about those Azerbaijanis. There are ten times more Azerbaijanis leaving on the territory of Russia than Kurds. Azerbaijanis might start demanding independence, also.’

F.A. “Azerbaijanis have their own state.”

A.E. “The Kurds will have their own state, also.”

F.A. “Azerbaijanis leave within their own borders. They are not like Armenians who demand their territories everywhere they settle.”

A.E. “Why did you shot down the Russian jet? What have you done to Constantinople?”

F.A. “Look at the Armenians leaving in Rostov region. There are so many of them there that they can declare independence any time. They might try to dismember the Russian state to create their Great Armenia.”

A.E. “What did you do to Constantinople? Where is Constantinople?’

F.A. “That’s why we are not going to support any referendum of independence. We are talking about the results of the referendum. The referendum has terrible consequences for the entire world. Catalonia, Karabah, Kurdistan might become a terrible example for those nations who now live in peace. They can always fight separatists who would want to destabilize the existing states and to create their own states.”

Radio host: “I have a question to you, at the beginning of this program you said that it was Barzani’s plan to stay in power. We have news that the democratic party of Kurdistan will decide of the candidacy of its new leader in the following weeks. This is according to the head of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) faction in the Iraqi parliament. Barzani said that he won’t even be running for the new term. His mandate is over.”

F.A.: “How can his mandate be over if they keep making up new state entities every time?’

Radio host: “On the 1st of November they will have election of all new authorities like a president and others.”

F.A.: “Why Barzai uses this referendum for his personal advancing? The elderly of those Kurdish groups that are located in the Northern Iraq don’t trust Barzani. He get arms from the United States. He gets money by selling oil. But those oil money don’t go to improve the life of people. Turkey creates businesses and organizations, Turkey opens schools. Turkey builds ports. It’s all being created for the Kurdish people who live on the territory of the Northern Iraq. So, people would have enough food to eat. Barzani destroys all of these. he trusts promises of his friends from the other side of the ocean. He destroys everything that was built by the Turkey and Kurdish friendship. Turkey invested hundreds of million dollars into this region with two thousand companies from Turkey operating there. They feed people there. You won’t find there Turkish arms that kills the Kurds.”

A.E. “But its economy, it’s not a humanitarian aid.”

F.A.: “But children have to be fed. Russia does the same for the Kurds. Russia signs contacts and agreements there for oil and energy production, making sure that the budget of the country has money to feed the people. I will give you one small example. During the Barzanis’ rule, they didn’t build even one power eclectic station in the region. Not even one! For very simple reason. To sell oil to people to run their own generators. Based on this example tell me what’s more important for Barzani, people or his own power?

Two more words. Yesterday, the Iraq’s government made decision to bring troops into the region. This is the start of expulsion of Barzani and his team from the region. Because not only Kurds live in this region but also Arabs, Turkomans and Turks.”

A.E. “These are all regions of contention that’s why there will be international intervention. They have no balls to do anything. Watch out because you might be kicked out of Constantinople. Hatred, wickedness, destruction.. I am not finished. What you are saying it’s a lie, fake news, and the ill Oriental fantasy.”

F.A. “The Turkey Security Council adopted a package of measures in order to secure the territorial integrity of Iraq. First of all those economic measures, like turning off all the routes for the Iraq’s oil to Europe and Turkey. It might have some consequences for the Turkish economy it might have some negative consciences, but money is not as important for Turkey as territorial integrity. Next, all the agreements with Kurdistan will be reviewed. Everything that Turkey has built for the Kurdish people will be reviewed. If all these won’t help, Turkey will move its troops there. As it said, any day now, Turkish troops might enter the territory of the Northern Iraq. That’s why the Kurdish authorities in Northern Iraq should show reason and not move ahead with this referendum. Otherwise the consequences for the region and for the world might be devastating.”

A.E. “The Kurds self-determination is the guarantee of the peace on the Middle East, for Iran and Turkey.”

F.A. “Avigdor, I wants to say just two more words before the end of our program. Armenians were used for the destruction of the Ottoman Empire. Kurds are being used for the destruction of the Turkish republic. That’s it.”

Scott Humor

Director of Research and Development

author of The enemy of the State

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