We have all heard the Ukrainian nationalist line: they are the true Slavs inheritors of the Kievan Rus while the modern Russians are really either Tatars or Ugro-Finns or God knows what else. And then there the famous quote by, I think, Napoleon, who said “scratch the Russian and you will find the Tatar”.
The interesting thing here is that there might well be some truth to that, and more than a grain only.
But first, what is a “Tatar”? Well, in modern times, a Tatar is a well defined category, both in historical terms and in modern terms (see Wikipedia entry for “Tatar” here). The problem with this is that was is missing from these definitions is the ancient usage of this word. Even nowadays, the various people referred to as “Tatars” have very little in common. They have even less in common with modern Mongols. So why do Russian books speak of a “Tatar-Mongol Yoke”? Who were these “Tatar-Mongols” in reality?
Official Russian (and western) historiography more or less agrees that the “Tatar-Mongols” were a mix of nomadic tribes from Asia (modern Mongolia) who swept across Siberia and the steppes and invaded Russia and many other countries (as far as Poland and Austria). In fact, these Tatar-Mongols built the biggest empire of all times and they did so just in a few decades. The following French map shows the huge size of this empire:
But there is a problem with this official narrative. Tatars are not Mongols. Worse, the term “Tatar” was applied to various totally different ethnic groups who had very little in common. There is even very strong evidence that the word “Tatar” was even applied to Russian populations!
Check out this detail of an icon of the famous Russian Orthodox saint Serge of Radonezh which shows a famous battle between Russians and Tatars and see whether you can tell these two groups apart:
and now let’s take a closer look at a detail of this (very large) icon:
Can you tell the combatants apart? If not, don’t feel bad. Neither can the historians. Not only are the two sides equipped exactly the same way, but both sides have icons of Christ as their banners!
This is just one example amongst many, and I will not bore you with the multitude of many others out there. What I will simply say is this: there is very strong evidence that the “Russian” forces were full of “Tatars” and there is also very strong evidence that “Tatar” forces were full of “Russians”. Some Russian historians go as far as saying that Russians are Tatars (in the 13th-15th century usage of these words, not in our modern ones!) and that what 18th and 19th century historians describe as a “Tatar Yoke” was in reality a Russian civil war. Now, before you throw up your hands in disgust, please remember that “Russian” is not (and never was!!) an ethnic category. In fact, the confusion here comes from the fact that neither Russian nor Tatar are ethnic categories. Mongol is, but the Mongols were never sophisticated enough and numerous enough to conquer such a huge landmass by themselves. Still dubious? Okay – try finding out who the modern descendants of the “Tatar-Mongols” are? Candidates to that title include Mongols, Turkmens, Slavs and many other ethnic groups form all over the former Empire of Genghis Khan. The amazing bottom line is this: we don’t know who the 12th-14th century “Tatar-Mongols” really were, but there is very strong evidence that “Russians” (speaking in a purely cultural, not ethnic sense) were very much part of that. Another way to put that would be to say that Orthodox Slavs were a key component of the civilization which later historians have labeled “Tatar-Mongol” empire. Some of these Orthodox Slavs were clearly subjects to the invading hordes from the East, but others were official of these hordes. What evidence is for there for that? Plenty – including the fact that the invaders used almost exclusively Russian in their administration, that a lot of Russians had Tatar names and vice-versa, or that if you look at the genetic stock in the regions supposedly colonized for 300 years by Mongols from Asia you will find an overwhelming preponderance of Slavic and Europeans genetic markers even though history records that a lot of Russian families were founded by Tatars (including, by the way, my own).
Good, that is exactly how it should be. I am confused too. And so are many historians. The evidence for the simple narrative offered by 18th-19th century historians simply does not add up. But what the true story is has yet to be discovered.
What about the Ukraine in all that?
First, remember that the “Ukrainian nation” is a 20th century invention. But what is true is that the Orthodox Slavs who lived in what is today the Ukraine have some very salient differences with the Orthodox Slavs who live in what is today the Russian Federation. Let’s call the first group South Orthodox Slavs and the second group North Orthodox Slavs. These are some of the important differences:
- The South Orthodox Slavs were much further away from the Tatar-Mongol centers of power than the North Orthodox Slavs.
- The South Orthodox Slavs spent many centuries invaded by the Polish and Lithuanian armies.
- The South Orthodox Slavs did not live through the Old Rite Schism (see here for details).
- The North Orthodox Slavs did not suffer Papist persecutions.
- The South Orthodox Slavs did live a long time under the Greek Orthodox Church (while the North Orthodox Slavs had their own, independent local Orthodox Church)
There are, of course, other elements, but these few do already point a possible and real differences in ethos. Of course, acting powerfully to nullify these differences is the truly massive and centuries long mixing of North and South Slavs. To claim, like the Ukrainian nationalists today, that Russians and Ukrainians are totally different people is absolutely ridiculous and to say that the Ukrainians are descendants of ancient “Ukrs” who are, I kid you not, the ancestors of the Aryans, who built the pyramids in Egypt and were the first to settle the Black Sea coast is plain crazy, of course. But it is undeniable that South and North Slavs *have* had historically very different experiences and that the North Slavs’ integration in, and acculturation to, to the civilization we now erroneously called “Tatar-Mongol” was very deep, possibly much deeper than suspected until now.
In conclusion, please don’t flame me for what I wrote. As I said, I am not a historian and there are enough thoroughly confused historians out there to make even a very ignorant person like myself feel bold enough to raise interesting questions without providing any answers at all. I just wanted to share with you that the history of the people living in modern Ukraine and, even more so, modern Russia is very complex and in many ways very mysterious and obscure and that those nationalists (on both sides!) who have it all figured out and reduced to once-sentence slogans are almost inevitably wrong.
History is always a tit bit more complex that it seem.
The general truth is that prior to 19th century almost no one really cared about ethnicities. Sure, there was racism, but it was based on another logical ground. Nationalism is a creation of New Era.
BTW, I’ve tried to translate Russian documentary “Project ‘Ukraine'” about how was the Ukrainian identity was fabricated in 19th century. Translation is far from being perfect, but it seem to be understandable enough.
Thanks. Very good video!
I wonder why you brought up this subject. What purpose does it solve?
We Are All Decended From Africa!!!!
That should upset the race obsessive a among you. It’s like Hitler never died!!!
Go to the National History Museum
Human populations around the world today show regional differences in their appearance, but our skeletons and genes show that we all share a common African ancestry
Yesterday you complained it’s all going anti-Putin here. Lots of people from different backgrounds and experience here,and we’re following the Ukraine problem, which has strong elements of race, ethnicity, language and identity issues in it. So Saker thought it a good idea to talk about those issues. If you don’t feel you’ll benefit, you are not forced to participate.
Wow jane,chill ! That’s yr 2nd bust up on 2 websites in 2 days.going for the hattrick?
Q: ..but our skeletons and genes show that we all share a common African ancestry
R: You might use that line when trying to survive a ride on a bus in the hood…
Although you’re perfectly right, those ancient facts are not the right tools to solve today’s probs.
and you don’t want to be a Mickey Mouse, when there’s a giant rat lurking around the corner…
“You might use that line when trying to survive a ride on a bus in the hood…”
The American Indians and African slaves could had try using that line when the White men exterminated them more than “blacks in the hood” have exterminated white people.
Something like this the Blacks could had said to you:
“Try using that line while we are being forcefully and violently shipped in ships to serve the White “Massa”.
The American Natives would had said:
“Try using that line while we are being forcefully and violently being robbed of our lives, our lands and starved to death from the White Devil”.
Fact is more Whites have exterminated the Other, by far! more, than Blacks have exterminated people
You might trying remembering *that* when calling Blacks that ride buses “people in the hood”.
The only people “in the hood” I know of are KKK -Whites.
You know…the Aryans like Hitler and his many German followers.
Compare Hitler and his German followers to Blacks and well…them Aryans (and other Aryans) beat them Blacks in violence and extermination of lives and environment by miles!!!
Quotes of North American Natives:
“It is cold and we have no blankets. The little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are — perhaps freezing to death.
I want to have time to look for my children and see how many I can find. Maybe I shall find
them among the dead.”– Chief Joseph, Nez Perce (1840-1904)
“When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money”.
“Only to the white man was nature a wilderness and only to him was the land ‘infested’ with ‘wild’ animals and ‘savage’ people . To us it was tame, Earth was bountiful and we were surrounded with the blessings of the Great Mystery.”
– Black Elk, Oglala Lakota Sioux (1863-1950)
“When a white army battles Indians and wins, it is called a great victory, but if they lose it is called a massacre.”
– Cheeseekau, Shawnee (1760-1792)
And my favorite: “The White man is crazy”.
The fate the befell the native american indians is by far the greatest tragedy ever recorded on the history of mankind. I would recommend reading David Stannard “American Holocaust” to give some perspective to the scope of what happened.
As for the American/African slave trade, this is a huge can of worms. Slavery was an accepted practice in large portions of the world at the time this started. In some parts of africa, slave trade is still practiced. Slave trade was not something the white man brought to africa. This is not to say that because everyone was doing it, slavery was a-o-k. It is and was an abomination for one man to claim ownership of another mans life. Another aspect of the American/African slave trade that needs to be brought up is who exactly these “white men” were. Jews were heavily involved in slave trade, and have, historicaly speaking, been heavily involved in this nefarious business throughout recorded time.
http://www.rense.com/general69/invo.htm gives some insight into this.
Am I giving them the entire blame? No, offcourse not. But they did play a big role in the business.
Another aspect is the african practice of taking/selling their enemies as slaves. Did you think white men scoured Africa for prime slaves? Think again. Most slaves were sold in trade-posts along the costs by other africans.
@ Norwegian Bob,
R: Ever set foot in Africa yourselves, Bob?
You said it!!
And you only skimmed the very surface of genocidal acts by Europeans against other races!!
Everyone can make worthless platitudes about nature and white people being bad. The fact is the Indians had no problem fighting and killing each other, and made a sport of torturing their enemies to death in cruelly ingenious ways. The white man was better at fighting because of superior technology, organization, and numbers. The Indians lost and the White man won. The end.
@ Daniel Rich,
I was the one that wrote that post to you about Americans Indians and Blacks.
I sent the my first reply to you forgetting to type my name.
Carmel by the Sea
@ Carmel by the Sea
Q: I was the one that wrote that post to you about Americans Indians and Blacks.
R: But Jane didn’t say anything about Native Americans.
“If the Great Spirit had desired me to be a white man he would have made me so in the first place. He put in your heart certain wishes and plans, and in my heart he put other and different desires. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows.” – Tatanka Iyotake | Hunkpapa Sioux, aka ‘Sitting Bull’
@ D. Rich, your reply/comment has to be one of the most retarded ever. Tell, me Dan, were you one of those kids that couldn’t fall asleep unless the lights were on? Are you now an adult who crosses the street to avoid that black guy walking toward you?
A question I need not ask is are you a racist?
Any more ad hominems from you, instead of real contributions, and you’ll be not longer welcome here. Ad hominem means attacking the person instead of discussing his points.
@ Vineyard Moderator – K.K.
I’m sure you’re abiding by the rules, but on my behalf, you can let anyone say anything to me or about me; its part and parcel of ‘freedom of speech.’
My mom always told me to listen very carefully to the opinions of others about myself, for, according to her, it gives an unhindered insight into their mind/s.
Of course, I do appreciate your stepping up to the plate :o)
Yes Daniel you look like you can look after yourself. I believe education is a life-long process. So I am hoping that commenter will learn how not to be a troll, or, failing that, understand why he got barred when he almost inevitably does. :)
@ Vineyard Moderator – K.K.
Personally, I’m against banning anyone. Let me explain why. I abide by the rules as set forth by the universe [the ones never written down]. I look at the universe and nature for answers to questions I have and ‘problems’ I need to solve.
One fact we do know about the Universe, is related to energy. Energy is created by two opposing forces and those [opposite] forces are able to change form [eternally] without ceasing to exist [theory in a nutshell].
If that is what the universe’s solution is [opposite forces + changes/renewals], who am I to alter that course?
As a web site, one solution would be [as I’ve previously suggested] to create a ‘playpen’ section to this forum, where all the troll comments are send to, by you moderators. This would enhance the freedom of speech banner and a win-win situation for everyone [involved]. Nobody gets banned and all voices are heard. If one wants to read nonsense, drivel and fallacies, one only has to visit that section.
Haha. We could automate it. Troll IDs/IPs could be directed straight into the playpen. Then known good users could post without any delay at all, on the assumption someone like you, with 45 comments approved so far, won’t suddenly go rogue.
@ Vineyard Moderator – K.K,
The truth doesn’t need laws to be true. The crux of the matter is, to get to it [the truth]. Some forum members are willing to share what they know and believe in, some remain silent readers, some have more nefarious intentions and others simply have to grow up.
Personally I prefer a synergistic angle, in which we all bring as much as we can to the table [evidence, traces of evidence, theories, etc] and sift and sort through them om an individual basis.
What I really would appreciate is an ignore button, so I can ignore all the anonymous input [for starters]. Some people produce white noise, and that’s fine, but sometimes I don’t want to hear it or listen to it. Ignore! :o)
We’d have to persuade some good commenters to use names. Most systems with Up/Down thumbs will hide content from you that you’ve marked Down. Some hide 5-downs from everyone but that lets trolls censor people. Collapsing a long convo would be useful.
@ Vineyard Moderator – K.K.
Q: We’d have to persuade some good commenters to use names.
R: I don’t think so. The idea of an ‘ignore’ button is to collapse every single [for example] ‘anonymous’ entry, so that you have to click on it to make them visible [again]. That is an individual choice and not one made by trolls. Only when ‘I’ click on it [the button], the ‘ignore’ will be activated and nobody is forced to use names.
Let’s say someone thinks I’m a bad apple. The only thing they have to do is click on the ignore button next to my name and whatever I’ve written [over the entire web site] will only be visible to them when they actively choose to do so [by reversing the ignore bit].
I’m basically a very lazy guy, so whatever I can/could to to save time, I’d do.
@ Charles Fasola,
Q: A question I need not ask is are you a racist?
R: Thank you for your kind interest in my personality. This is the internet. A place where any nobody can be a somebody, so, I’ll let whatever I write be my ‘lawyer.’
The man, in the clip, smacks a blind woman in the face with all his might [out of nowhere], but we can’t say he’s an African American?
We are all descended from Africa? No, the THEORY is that we are descended from persons originating in Africa. Whats the chance of finding ancient bones in Europe or Eurasia? Zero. Why? Because the entire landmass has at several points throughout history been covered in grinding glaciers that have made soup out of everything underneath.
I would strongly suggest you read a book by Cremo & Thompson called “Forbidden Archeology” which proposes some interesting alternate views on current historical dogma and Darwins theory of evolution.
One thing that I am always 100 % sure about is that nobody (not me either) can be absolute certain about human evolution. A closed mindset is humanity’s greatest enemy as it prevents mental evolution.
Thanks to Saker for this post. It goes to show that much of our near ethnic history is muddled enough to be disputable.
Here in Norway we are in the strange position (as ethnic Norwegians) that the Sami people are somehow given greater advantages and position than our own people. Once you go into Norwegian history pre-Christ it all becomes “muddled” like we didnt exist and that there was a different people that inhabited this land. In the area where I come from there are archeological finds of graves stretching back 6000 years. Yet they are not willing to accept that this is our (ethnic norwegian) ancestors and treat it as if its some unknown people. I say F**K THAT! Those were my ancestors. I find it disrespectful in the greatest sense to imply that todays ethnic norwegians somehow emigrated to Norway later and somehow “stole” the land. I cherish my ancestors, their courage and their will to survive in this cold hard country. I am a result of that struggle of survival. Norwegian culture is perverted and confuscated by a small group of devious bastards who is slowly but surely destroying our integrity and feeling of belonging. We need a cultural reawakening, not in a destructive sense outwards. But to recapture who we are as a people and where we come from. In this regard I feel strong empathy for the Russian people. They are being subjected to the same propaganda and sinister brainwashing as we have been for a long time.
We are all made out of stardust and the planet we live on is the only home we have. This is undeniable. The sooner we understand it, the better.
I agree, but it is also an oversimplification implying we are all alike which we unfortunately are not. We are culturaly very diverse and also, geneticaly different. Part of this problem is the misrepresentation of the understanding of genetics. We do NOT understand the genetic code. We understand a miniscule part of it. One is tempted to say that we understand that messing with it creates differences in physiology. Exactly what the difference becomes, we do not know accurately except in the most simple genetic structures.
The problem with Darwin’s theories is that it attempts to exclude the possiblility of other primates existing PARALELL in time with Homo Sapiens. It assumes that each species evolves into the other without much overlap. I do NOT put any consideration on religious explanations as I see them as pure fantasy. That we developed from something at some point of time is unquestionable. The how, when and why are all hidden in time though, and might not even be particularly relevant in the greater scheme of things.
What IS important in the current time is our cultural development and national integrity. It is truly sad to see how the Ukrainian fascists/neonazis/zionists are flailing around trying to build some kind of a mirage of national pride.
@ Norwegian Bob,
Q: It is truly sad to see how the Ukrainian fascists/neonazis/zionists are flailing around trying to build some kind of a mirage of national pride.
R: Ever went to a soccer match, Bob?
Al-Harakiri [ritual suicide, really?] is right when s/he states, “We are all made out of stardust and the planet we live on is the only home we have.”
Doesn’t equate to being ‘all as one’ or ‘1 4 all’ but the Universe gave birth to all we see, have and are today [apologies to all religious ppl out there, but as a diehard atheist I’m stuck in our universe].
You should read Darwin’s Descent of Man before you make such claims about his theory excluding the continued existence of other primate species. He was far too good a naturalist to say something like that.
Our space is full of misrepresentations coming from the so called scientists trying to push down our throats their little agenda.
Might I remind you all, that real fact about the bones in Ethiopia is that they are far removed from homosapiens, while the bones found in Germany, Spain and Greece are of protosapiens and are millions/hundreds years old.
To add to KK’s point: you make the mistake of assuming everyone is as sensible as you. They are not. Least of all our so-called leaders in the West.
What’s more, as everyone’s favourite war/peace guru says, know not just yourself, but your enemy too (I’m sure you know who I am referencing.) That means considering what might seem ‘crazy’ regarding motivation.
Non-religious people often think the religious are ‘crazy’ for their beliefs. But belief it one of the most powerful motors of political upheaval: history is full of examples. That applies to ‘race’ too. Atheists/secularists are no strangers to dogma either – even when they have no more empirical validity than the religious ones they so often deride.
This article has generated a lot of fascinating comments. I have learned a lot. It’s important to keep an open mind always about issues we cannot have any certainty about, even if some of those opinions seem ‘crazy’.
Who would have thought only two years ago that neo-Nazi groups would be actively financed by the US to overthrow a democratically-elected president? Yet that is exactly what’s happened in the Ukraine.
Strange times require flexible mind-sets.
And history is a teacher -but only if we pay attention. The difficult bit is trying to figure out what’s relevant to current problems.
Science is a funded ploy, and being the UK is your reference point, makes it biased that way.
There is some credence to the African origin hypothesis however, when viewed from another science
deciphered from a master theologian and professor named Zechariah Sitchin a Soviet-born American author of books proposing an explanation for human origins involving ancient astronauts. While nobody can be taken as the undisputed on the subject, his lifelong adherence to the scientific principles, puts his work in contention in my opinion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI7m-nFB4CM
Yes thanks from me – this was well worth the time to view. No wonder many Ukrainians/slavs seem to be suffering a severe identity crisis – the history of the region is a witches brew spanning centuries with many outsiders repeatedly stirring the pot. Very interesting to understand the roots of re-emergent nationalist ideology once again in conflict with the sense of identification with the Russian world. An old old story which, by the way, has been once again cynically exploited by Western interference with geo-political aims of creating maximum problems for Russia. (Also a repeating story.) No coincidence that US strategist mastermind, Brzezinski – ‘The Grand Chessboard’- happens to be a Pole with connections to nobility.
And little wonder its all ended in a bloody civil war.
Highly recommend this video.
You are welcome. I think, this video contains much trivia that is a must-know for anyone who wants to discuss current events there. Even if someone doesn’t believe it as “Russian propaganda” – it is a general Russian POV and general Russian attitude to the problem.
IMO, one of the main reasons of such civil conflicts lies in the misunderstandings. Westerners (or rather the Western elites) tend to poke their nose everywhere dismissing even a thought that there could be someone with another way of life or thinking. As Pushkin have said 170 years ago, “Leave us alone: you’re unacquainted With suchlike bloody sacred tablets;”.
It’s right for Russia – a wider “Russian world” if you’d like – and it’s right for Near and Middle East, where interfering into local affairs essentially created not only the current ISIS and al-Qaeda organizations, but the whole Islamism as a phenomenon. Two centuries ago Wahhabi was a marginal sect shunned by all respectable Muslims. Now it’s a de facto state religion of two richest countries of the region.
” Tamonten March 06, 2015
History is always a tit bit more complex that it seem ”
I totally agree and the consequences of an ignorant regime in Washington whose historical knowledge was learned in Hollywood films is likely to end in a nuclear war that will leave the USA in ruins.
Dear The Saker (and Tamonten),
Recently scientists developed a map of slavic DNA.
Scientists from the Medical Genetics Institute in Tomsk have developed a map of Russians’ ethno-territorial origins which can help tell exactly where a person’s origins lie using his or her DNA:
An international team of scientists, including specialists from St.-Petersburg and Samara, have discovered a new genetic confirmation of the ‘Kurgan hypothesis’ regarding the origin of Indo-European languages:
I think this will answer a lot of questions and disputes the Ukrainian nationalist line once and for all – with facts to back it up.
We all – the human race – have a lot more in common than we care to admit.
It’s a shame that the Sputnik article used a map showing the Anatolian hypothesis. Neither hypothesis has been proven correct as yet.
A good documentary, thank you.
I think there is always a part of truth in what they say. But the problem is if it is blended with lies and false propaganda. I knew a Ukrainian when we were trying to learn english with native speakers from http://preply.com/en/skype/english-native-speakers and he believes political motives just use events in order to gain sympathy or support.
“Reuters / ISIS generates up to $1bn annually from trafficking Afghan heroin.”
CIA business on both ends.
First crop planted after 2002 US invasion of Afghan was poppies for heroin.
It is the number one industry.
Linking it to MidEast traffic run by ISIS (wholly owned subsidiary of Langley agency of chaos) is very efficient.
Should win a best practices award and management bonuses all around.
Interesting article. It is a fact that all empires make use of conquered peoples to administer their realms. I have no doubt the Mongols utilised Russian (Tatar) peoples in what is modern Russia in the same way they utilised Chinese Han people under Kublai Khan and his successors in China.
I always thought that the South Slavs you refer to were that group that invaded the Balkans in the 6-7th centuries and which are today the various peoples of former Yugoslavia (which I believe means South Slav) and Bulgaria. At one time they even occupied the Peloponnese in Greece and so it seems many modern Greeks are actually descendents of Slavs.
As far as the Ukrainians and Russians go, I had always viewed them as one race with a slightly different dialect – much the same as Portuguese and Spaniards. I was under the impressions that the current enmity was a hangover from Stalinist repression under which the Ukrainians suffered terribly. Just my thoughts – I’m no expert on Slavic History.
Ya. complicated. Since I just got awarded a fellowship to study Russia and Eurasia/Central Asia at the University of Toronto (somewhat complicating my plans) I’ll weigh in.
Tatars are…. Bulgarians!! Some moved from Volga Bulgaria to Bulgaria-Bulgaria and adopted the local slavic tongue. Later, the already Turkic Bulgars remaining on the Volga adopted the Kipchak Turkic language of the Golden Horde. In the Mongol Empire there was a caste system with Mongols at the Top, then ‘Coloured eyes’ (Turkics and others from the West), then Khitans and Chinese at the bottom. The coloured eyes were important in the Mongol military and bureaucracy. Mongols aren’t that difficult to define. They were/are speakers of a langauge closely related to Turkic and spoken on the high-elevation eastern Eurasian steppe. Their pre-buddhist/islamic religion was pretty much identical to that of the Turkics, Tengriism. Turks physically and culturally interbred more with Iranians while Mongols interbred more with Chinese. The steppe alone did not provide all the necessities of life.
The Saker has a very good sense of what a fool’s errand it is to talk about racial purity. Genetics is the main superstition of our time, and in the future a lot of the things scientists say about it now will (if objectivity triumphs) be viewed as we now view phrenology.
There have been a lot of different shifting and melding groups of nomads on the steppe and keeping track of them is not easy. They change names, use names of previous groups with no real connection to themselves, and merge as one group ‘accepts the forefathers of another as their own.’ Iranian tribes became Turkified and nomadic, Turkic tribes became Iranianized and settled… I’m now in Turkey, and you can’t tell me that these people’s DNA isn’t only a fraction from the Altai. The Cossacks, though Russians I speak to don’t believe me, were also much mixed with Turks. Not only is there no such thing as a Russian who isn’t part tatar, I venture to say there’s no such thing as a Turk who isn’t part Serbian janissary.
As for the Ukraine, let’s not forget that Novorussia was originally lesser Tatary and remained so until Catherine the Great. Those Oghuz/Nogai Tatars didn’t just disappear or fade to a tiny minority. Many or most of them melted into the Novorussian/Malorussian (or Ukrainian if you must) population. My German ancestors moved to Novorussia only 30 years after the last slave raids of the Crimean Khanate. Nogai attacks on the open steppe were still a potential problem.
As Lev Gumilov, the son of Anna Akhmatova pointed out, the cultural and genetic legacy of the ‘Mongol-Tatars’ (a weird, western orientalist phrase) is something Russia, including it’s temporarily estranged southern parts should be very proud of. The couldron technique we all know and love is pure steppe nomad, via cossack.
Btw, Charles Bronson is a Lipka Tatar from Poland, Lithuania home to jewish Karaim Tatars.
Slavs and Turks are brotherly nations, totally intertwined. I hope this will be the basis of the Eurasian Union, two great brothers protecting the tradition, diversity and social justice of their steppe and taiga from the global New York dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, which recreates everything in it’s own bland, banally evil soulless image.
What about the Mongolian spot?
I understand that anyone with ur-Mongolian DNA has it.
Rudolf Nureyev was a Tatar, whatever that now means. Or, per Wikipedia, he came from a Bashkir-Tatar family. H grew up near Ufa. I was struck to see some photos of people also identified as Tatars and the whole facial structure looked startlingly like Nureyev’s. That is my scientific contribution to this discussion.
Well said Ingrian and lets not forget the influx of other Turkic tribes such as the Pechenegs/Cuman/Kipchak/Bashkir and Jewish (but also Turkic) Khazar. The realilty is Russians are a melting pot of peoples from Scandinavia/Eurasia/central Europe and the middle East. Now, I suspect the most nationalistic & militant elements of current Ukraine to be the old Ruthenians of Galicia (descendants of the Rurikids of the Halych principality) who where first under the Polish-Lithuanian apanage and then of the Habsburgs. So it may be true that to a certain extent the Turkic element is lessened in western Ukraine. So what? Today’s nationalism is only a tool to achieve the old Divide & Rule trick the West is pulling on Ukrainians.
One other fun thing to keep in mind is Josef Stalin. Before becoming top dog, he was head of the Narkomnats, directing Soviet nationality policy. They sent out surveys to determine exactly what nationalities there were. Their subjects had never considered some of the questions, for example when asked what their nationality was, many responded ‘muslim.’ This bit of social engineering resulted in a differentiation between Kazakhs and Kyrgyz where none had hitherto existed. Sarts disappeared from the map and the lost tribe of Uzbeks suddenly reappeared. This process of state-capitalist nation-state building was also key in the development of Ukrainian identity, which hadn’t existed as such before.
Quite the opposite – it’s the West Ukrainians specifically that have closer genetic affinity to Tatars (10 units away) than Russians (30 units away), while the East Ukrainians are genetically identical to RUssians:
Well wiki says the mongolian spot is “extremely prevalent among other East, Southeast, North, and Central Asian peoples, Malay archipelago islanders, Indigenous Oceanians (chiefly Micronesians and Polynesians), Amerindians, East Africans, Latin Americans and Caribbeans of mixed-race descent, and Turkish people.” Not a rabbit trail I’d follow.
Wow. Actually, that info seems to me to make it an even more interesting “rabbit” trail to follow. Maybe not in connection with Russia, but generally.
The first time I ever heard of this was in the early eighties. I was doing a music course in Horn, Austria, and became freindly with a nice family from Vienna who were also doing it. And they quite proudly told me that the Mutti und Tochter both had the Mongolian spot, so they could trace their line back to the Mongolians. Needless to say, I was as impressed as this info was intended to make me!
Another “scientific” contribution: As I posted earlier, the historical record wouild seem to indicate that the USA and Russia share the historical feature of nation building via continental expansion and conquest of indigenous peoples. One time I was chatting with a lady from Oklahoma and she told me that whenever she has visitor they always ask her: “Where can I see some Indians?” To which she responds, she told me in her Oklahoma twang: “Just look around you, honey!”
Well as a Canadian I definitely have some native american ancestors. I think the main difference between Russia and the US in this respect is that in the end Russia/the USSR assigned land, languages, national folklore and identity to every identifiable nation within it’s borders. Meanwhile the US did it’s best to disposses the native nations of *everything.* Canada was a little bit better, just a little bit.
I disagree with some shade of meanings you put on. You totally omit Khazaria (the real tatars) and (only) partly mention Great (Volga-Bolga) Bulgaria. You didn’t mention at all the variags – the core of all russians. Yet this variags were very close related to ugro-finns.
Yes, there were two Bulgaria’s – south on Danube and the young Great Bulgaria in north. Slavs (as a term) become known in the time of Ekaterina the Great. At that time exist also today’s russian language – “invented” under the order of Ekaterina – few hundred words only. Before that they’ve speak (guess) bulgarian. There is a republic in Russian Federation called Tatarstan. Yet this tatars have nothing to do with mongols, though clearly they are asiatic. Around circa 600AD Kiev was rulled by khazarian-bulgarian join forces. Mind – russians didn’t exist at that time. Yes, it was Khazarian khaganat (khazarians=today’s jews). It was Islam and Judaism that brake up that khazarian-bulgarian union. Can you imagine how huge Volga Bulgaria was? There is arabic maps and info about it. All today’s Rossia minus Siberia. Still in Ukraine is bulgarians in our days. Don’t mix up bulgarians with slavs – yes, there is some on Balkans – in Serbia – pechenegs — very closely related to variags.
(Makedonians are mix btwn thrasians and albanians. The latest DNA maps shows that more than 50% of today’s bulgarians have thrasian blood.)
@this variags were very close related to ugro-finns.
You may be closer to the truth than you suspect.
Check this site:
UI.RA.LA. The Ancient Way of Boat Peoples. A view of the past from the point of view of Water-Peoples, by Andres Paabo, @http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/, especially PART FOUR >>The aftermath of boat peoples in Europe: ESTONIAN: A REMNANT OF THE EUROPEAN TRADE LANGUAGE NORTH OF THE PHOENICIANS AND GREEKS – THE VENETIC EVIDENCE
Related Supplementary Articles
THE LANGUAGE OF THE ANCIENT VENETI: A New View of the Language in the Ancient Venetic Inscriptions.
are you talking to me?
I said “There have been a lot of different shifting and melding groups of nomads on the steppe and keeping track of them is not easy. They change names, use names of previous groups with no real connection to themselves, and merge as one group ‘accepts the forefathers of another as their own.’ ” Having actually studied it and not just having some silly idea that Khazars are the ‘real tatars’ I know that the ethnology of the steppes is really really complicated, too complicated for this medium. I made no attempt at a definitive summary.
Your opinions don’t appear to be based on any form of scholarship. Varyags are vikings. Pechenegs are not Serbs.
btw I said ‘all Russians are part Tatar’ but tatar is a flexible term with at least four meanings I can think of. I meant it in the broad sense, all Russians are part Turkic. Part the people who conquered every Eurasian civilization going, China, Korea, India, Iran, Dar Al Islam, Byzantium, Poland, Lithuania, Russia…
The Mongol Empire farely quickly fell apart into peices run by Chingis’ grandsons. Russia/Golden Horde or Ulus of Jochi, Central Asia/Chagatai Khanate, Iran/Il Khanate of Hulagu, and the Yuan dynasty of Kublai. The Yuan was the dominant, richest part of the Empire and the world.
The mongols were not crude barbarians. Their victories relied on intense discipline, planning, decimalized military organization and the posession of an incredibly high proportion of the world’s horses. They had to be convinced by a Confucanized turk that wiping out the Chinese and using the land for horse breeding would be less profitable than taxing the people. They mainly cared about bounty to distribute and maintain loyalty among themselves. Their Empire helped lay the groundwork for modernity (characterized by trade & commercialization, rise of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie). Eurasian trade routes had never seen it so good, great security and yama horse-relay/rest-stop system, which I understand persisted in Russia until the 20th century. Ямщик if I spelled it right is one of the very very many turko-mongolic terms enriching the Russian language. there is some talk of the Mongols almost having converted to Nestorianism.
There would seem to be an internal logic to Mongolians as militarily and administratively “advanced,” namely, isn’t it possible that the most “advanced” transport technology—horses and horsemanship— would lead to more advanced organization? Not to be a bore, but this (brilliant horsemanship and possession of huge herds of horses) was the basis of the “vast and powerful [Comanche] empire” of the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries in North America (Comanche Empire, by Pekka Hamalainen).
Are you German ancestors Mennonites by any chance?
Some mennonite novorussian germans, some lutheran novorussian germans…
@Ingrian: “the global New York dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, which recreates everything in it’s own bland, banally evil soulless image.”
Your intro is plain prose and probably true. But your conclusion is even more true because it is pure poetry.
AFAIK there are some Russian historians who say that Russia is the organic continuation of Golden Horde. There was no “kicking out” Mongols but constant civil wars and eventually more traditionalist orthodox Slavic faction won. But the state apparatus and management was never interrupted. And this state apparatus was probably originally borrowed from China – Mongols were small nomadic tribes but administering huge empire required many professional managers. China has always had professional managerial class so it would be quite natural for Genghis Khan to use their knowledge.
But what is fascinating is, that according to modern genetic studies political and language borders seem to have never divided people much. Wherever you analyze populations, neighbors almost always cluster together genetically regardless whether they share language and religion. And they are more different from people maybe sharing common language family but living at far away places. Thus genetically there is no clear difference between Russians, Belorussians, Poles, Ukrainians and Estonians. Instead there is continuous gradient of certain traits from west to east and south to north (generally people in south have darker hair and skin and in north lighter etc.) In Caucasus there are two religions and four language families but all people living there are genetically pretty identical. Tatars are genetically similar to Southern Russians, Northern Russians are similar to Fenno-Ugric nations and so on.
For me this gives hope that normal people living their normal lives always prevail over political divisions. Whatever states, religions and cultures there may come and go, in long run simple people get along with their neighbors, intermarry and find some way to get over these divisions.
I believe that the Russian language is part of the Aryan group of languages.
Russian as well as most European languages (and many others) is an “Indo-European” language.In they past ages it might have been considered an “aryan” language.Remember also that the land once called Persia,Iran means “land of the Aryans”.So like much else (their misuse of the Christian “hooked cross”) the nazis tainted the word “Aryan”.And now its not used often,because of them.
@Lauris: “…states, religions and cultures … come and go … simple people get along with their neighbors, intermarry …”
The Romeo and Juliet phenomenon. Even better, the Boaz and Ruth story written as a gentle reproof to aggressive xenophobia: “Whither thou goest I shall go, thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God”.
Having read both stories I simply could believe that Homo Sapiens never intermarried with Neanderthals; and I was right. The initial DNA analysis was too crude to detect our Neanderthal inheritance; but the crude racist message from that first crude analysis spread like wildfire and took decades to correct.
Here for me is evidence that Russia has not managed to break the shackles of the money-power, the secret masters of our planet described by Carrol Quigley in “Tragedy and Hope” http://rt.com/news/238549-russia-model-nude-protest/. Starikov has outlined the cure in his book “Rouble Nationalisation”. Until Putin implements those policies, as far as I am concerned he’s a controlled puppet part of the Hegelian Dialectic of the Money-Power. 14% mortgages are part of the looting process. Ghadaffi was printing his own money backed by the resources of his nation and was granting married couples very low interest money as a deposit on a house and anyone who wanted to farm was given one. What we hear from Russia instead is that “central bank interest rate policies make agricultural self suffuciency projects uneconomic”.
This information is really disturbing. I was hoping that Russia would do a basic thing like having special interest rates for home mortgages and industrial+agricultural loans. This reinforces the suspicion that Russia is controlled by BIS regarding the number of roubles it can place into circulation.
And this makes sense if you are weak and want to be accepted in the western controlled financial system. I said weak because China is part of this system, but no one has the courage to tell them what interest rates to apply to their currency.
On a different topic, it takes too long for the inquiry into Nemtsov killing. Another week or two with no official findings and it will be very hard to remove from people’s mind what the western media has pumped right after the death: that Putin ordered the hit.
Sadly, for now, Russia is stuck with the Troika rule that the Central Bank has to be independent of the government. Central Banks all work to the same rule of economics (IMF which Russia is a member of) and BIS. Russia can be leaned on hard if they stop NOW. After their own system is working (May sometime) it’s different.
Anyway housing is not expensive outside the major cities, and families with 3(?) or more children get their mortgage paid by the government. On certain small-farm equipment they pay the interest, eg a tractor (but not on 10 combine harvesters for an agri-business).
Yes, that definitely explains that ghastly russia trade deficit (somewhere $20B/yr IIRC) in food/agriculture alone, posted about 3 weeks ago from an article .
this is something that cannot be explained nor excused, from someone “in power” 15 years now, since 1999!
does even any 8-year old looking at a map of the world see russia as too small to have enuf arable land to support its mere 150 mm??
“in power” means nothing–it’s the phrase (question) “beholden to” that answers many of the inconsistencies we see.
well, we’ll have to notify the president of your complaints…I’m sure he’ll listen to you. After all, he must know how much better you do at presidenting than him.
I would ditto the comment of DavidB, the Mongols simply would not have had the human resources to self-administer such a vast empire. As he points out, they were masters of incorporating the masses of their conquered territories into their bureaucracies. Kublai Khan even brought into his administration the out-and-out European Marco Polo as a personal adviser for 18 years before the navigator returned to Portugal. That ethnic Europeans in Russia would have been part and parcel of “Grande Tartarie” should follow fluently.
Call me a nerd, but I think the historical revisionism on display in Kiev, Warsaw, Tallinn, Riga, and Vilnius is one of the most overlooked aspects of the current crisis. Twisting history to fits one’s ideology has preceded some of the greatest crimes of the last 200 years: the narrative of the “Benevolent colonizer” preceding the rape of the Americas, Africa, and Asia, the narrative of the Zionists in the usurping of Palestine, Nazism’s narrative prior to the destruction of Europe, and last but assuredly not least, America’s “March to Progress” claptrap preceding the transformation from democracy to naked empire.
Again, not to geek out too hard, but this bending of the historical record ought to be fought and resisted just as hard as the spin doctoring of current events in the MSM. Without the doctored narratives of the Ukrainian nationalists, would the population have been so ready to go fight the “subhumans” in the East? To ask the question is to answer it. The false narratives are an absolute prerequisite to war and genocide. Despite being so damn good at it, human beings are not naturally inclined to slaughter one another. That comes only after the relegation to the “other”.
If we want to confront the atrocities of tomorrow, we must stop the distortion of yesterday.
False narratives don’t automatically cause war. The warmongers create narratives to justify what they already want.
Ukraine needs a narrative that lets them have a proud history, but WITHOUT that involving murdering anyone, in the past or in the present. Today’s Banderite nonsense can become to be seen as a mistake, a brainwashing by the true enemy the oligarchs… and they can be proud of being smart enough to throw them off together with their false Bander-narrative.
Check out the link below that Blue corrected for me. It’s exactly as you say.
Ukraine needs a narrative that lets them have a proud history
Exzcept that is a tall order when the past 700 years of your history consists of:
1) Being the white slaves (err, serfs) of the Polish Nobility.
2) Being helpless victims of the Crimean Tatars and sold into the slave markets of the Ottoman Empire.
3) Being repeatedly taken advantage of by Jewish tax collectors, merchants and administrators of the Polish-Lithuanian state.
4) Selling your own women into slavery via prostituion in Europe, America, and Israel, and as mail-order “brides” right up to this day.
Its asking a lot to find some pride of accomplishment in that mess.
Thus the glomming on the history of the Cossacks by the Galicians and the superimposing of that identity upon the people of West Ukraine, and the renaming of themselves as Ukrainians instead of being Rusyns.
It doesn’t help that the All-Glorious Ukr’s condemn the Russians as Finnic mongrels, and yet the one bit of real historic glory in Ukraine, the Kievan Rus state, was founded by Rurik who was … a Finn.
No need confuse people with science either.
Another poor crossroads country. Kiev sounds like Kievan, forget the Finn bit (seeing we just established there’s no genetic ethnicity anyway). Language obviously changes over the centuries. They are LUCKY to have picked up so many words from so many other places (that once ruled them). Build on this. Don’t try any stupid “language purification” schemes. Build on soaking up even more. Keep speaking Russian, too, it is a sign of smartness to be bi or tri lingual. Teach the kids some west European language, too, and the Latin alphabet.
Bandera I said somewhere earlier should be repackaged as the turncoat that he was. But maybe that is wrong. Repackage him as someone who goes with the flow, bends with the wind. But ended up rejected by both sides. Poor people, they’ve had some bad winds, they’re close to being totally broken this time around. Let them make a virtue out of being flexible, of CHANGING ATTITUDES and LOYALTIES as the need arises. (So making a virtue out of kicking out the EU soon).
They’ve had to sell their women. They do it themselves. It’s the only work always available for a woman. But it is still slavery — become a slave in the hyope the sugar daddy will look after you properly. They’ve spent 700 years hoping the ruler will look after them well. And are now signing up for more from the EU. THIS TIME they get to see it up front — halved pensions, quadrupled gas bills, empty supermarket shelves.
Sorry guys, you need to look at those guys, good neighbors until a year ago you’re now being ordered to hate. Have a look. Your treacherous oligarch government spent 3 months killing 2000 of you just to destroy the Debaltsevo rail junction. It took the subhuman Colorados TWELVE DAYS to have it working again.
How come? because they are independent. What you want to become. Independent. They roll up their sleeves and get things done, not sit and wait for the master to throw them some crumbs.
Standing on their own feet after 700 years of subjugation would be something to be truly rightfully proud of.
Try to find small successes in the past, to point to as “they always had it in them”.
Novorossiya can promise to keep teaching Ukrainian in their schools, so they can keep talking to each other.
Rurik was not a Finn otherwise we wouldn’t have been slavs :)
I wish I could find an article I read a few months again,something on the order of “a letter to the Galicians”.Where a Cossack attacks Galicians for trying to claim the Cossack heritage.I thought I Bookmarked it,but don’t see it.He talks about how the West Ukrainians weren’t true Cossack and not really connected after centuries of foreign rule to the Rus peoples of the rest of Ukraine.So as you say,they claim to be Cossacks because they have little else to be proud of in their history.But btw,I think Rurik would be what we would think of today as Swedish.
Rurik had the Y chromosome haplotype N1C1. See the wikipedia article on him. The N group is centered in the Finns, Northern Russians, and Balts and is almost entirely absent from Sweden. Sweden is overwhelmingly of the I haplogroup. I would know, that is the male line that lead to my mother, coming down to me through history via Urse d’Abitot in Gloucestershire, and Hialti de Hauteville in Normandy, then back to Denmark, from there back to Sweden, and from Sweden to the area called Kvenland in northern Sweden (my maternal male line is traced in the first millenium AD in the geneaology of one of the Norse sagas).
If Rurik and the Rus had been Swedes, the Russian elite would have been much more like the English Norman ascendancy. They weren’t.
The Slavs (at leas the East and West Slavs), it seems, were the real “Indo-Europeans” or “Aryans” such as that theory goes, at this point. The South Slavs are of course Slavicized Romanians and Dalmatians, as the small number of Slavic warrior overlords who invaded the Balkans post-Justinian were absorbed into the general Roman populace, but left behind the legacy of imposing their language on the sedentary part of the population. The only people who retained a Romanian identity were the Vlachs who were also called the Shepherds of the Romans, who survived by driving their flocks into Wallachia and the Carpathian Mountains of Transylvania.
The Germans (by which I mean every Teuton south of the North and Baltic Littoral zones), are closely related to the French and Northern Italians and the Saxon-English (specifically the people south of the Danelaw). This is the pre-Roman “Celtic” cultural zone. This becomes amusing in that the Nazi Germans thought of themselves as Aryan supermen and the Slavs as non-Aryans, but really it is the other way around, especially seeing the prevelance of light colored hair and blue eyes is highest among the Balts, White Russians, Northern Russians, Finns, and Swedes. The Germano-Celtic west Europeans have been in place in their lands at least since the end of the Ice Age. This is seen by their close relation to ancient specimens found, such as Cheddar Man. The reason they speak an Indo-European language is because when the proto-Slav Indo Europeans came to Europe thousands of years ago, they left behind creolized languages throughout the continent that were a mixture of the ancient Indo-European and the local native tongue.
I agree with most of the post.It is close to what I’ve read as well.I’m not sure on Rurik though.I think at best he was mixed: ” but with the closest relatives of the Rurikid haplotype being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns”
@the Vlachs who were also called the Shepherds of the Romans
A correction is necessary. The identification of the Vlachi with the Shepherds of the Romans is based on a faulty translation of a passage from Gesta Hungarorum refering to Panonnia , inhabited by “the Slavs, Bulgarians, Vlachs, AND the shepherds of the Romans (quam terram habitarent Sclavi, Bulgarii et Blachii AC pastores Romanorum).
The Latin ac (short for atque) has the same meaning with et=and.
The Pastores Romanorum were something else than the Vlachs from Pannonia, which “after the death of King Attila, the Romans said the land of Pannonia was pastureland because their flocks grazed in the land of Pannonia” (Gesta…). These lands were always pasture land (at least since the expulsion of the Celtic Boii by the Dacian King Burebista in the first century BC), still known in the 12th Century as “the pasturing lands of Julius Caesar”.
The Chronicle of Nestor, under the years 6396-6406 (888-898) says clearly that:
“The Magyars… began to fight against the neighboring Vlachs and Slavs. For the Slavs had settled there first, but the Vlachs had seized the territory of the Slavs.The Magyars subsequently expelled the Vlachs, took their land, and settled among the Slavs,whom they reduced to submission”. The chronicler clearly speaks about Pannonia, which was settled by Vlachs and Slavs and expelled them. They had nowhere else to go than to Transylvania”.
@ Kat Kan,
Soon There’ll be a Ukrainian version of this
If the Youtube embedding doesn’t work, ‘Click Here’
@ Kat Kan,
As it turns out, both didn’t work. Here’s the link to youtube @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqgkZDbe4Xk
That Ukrainians need an identity to be proud of…I don’t agree. That’s nationalism…something that is not a positive feature of the 20th/21st centuries.
We need to be getting away from nationalism. The less borders the better. Ethnic groups can have their pride, although pride is not something very positive either, usually.
And if there’s no truth in it, then its completely useless.
Nationalism is what’s being forced down their throats now.
They’ve had 700 years of serfdom and slavery and feeling they’re powerless to do anything for themselves. They need a backstory that supports some self-esteem, and some historic evidence that they CAN produce something good…. like a working society.
Every nation had good times it can be proud of. They have to be found and emphasised. The bits of history that need to be buried are the ones where all they did was kill kill kill. They have to stop identifying themselves by hating the OTHER and start learning to love THEMSELVES.
“the less borders the better”
So does that mean that you are in favour of a supranational state like the E.U. everywhere ?
Marco Polo returned to Venice, which currently is in the state of Italy.
He was the man who brought use back safran, rice and noodles of all sorts plus wrote about his experiences, which inspired many to follow in his footsteps to China.
Marco Polo was Venetian, not Portuguese.
“If we want to confront the atrocities of tomorrow, we must stop the distortion of yesterday.”
He who controls the present, controls the past.
He who controls the past controls the future.
An essential truth, prominently declared yet assiduously hidden in plain sight.
I recomed you to read about Haplogroups before we take this issue further, and the genetic reseach have show to debunk a lott of the narratives we debate to day.
It boils down to this, two major groups is by deff, european, and that incl slavic witch belongs to one of the main populations, and the other is the Russian/Ukrainian main land, aka the sentral european plains.
BUT one group is left out of it, entrily, the Haplogroup I belong to.
And we have close relations geneticly with Basques/Berbers/Sardinians/Oldeuropeantribes, and so on.
Since we are of the same Blood.
And learn about the Finno Ugric language, the one originated from europa, and is the for runner to even Russian.
Finns have as Asians slightly tilted/altered eyes, witch is by many “slavs” considered to be the prof of “mongl” in the Finns, but acoding to genetics, that not true at all, infact there is no more “mongl” blood in Finns(least of all) than in Norce, even less than all the other countrys in europa, the only people with this low level of “mongol” blood, is Russians/Rus, witch has nothing what so ever to do with Sweden.
Rus is mutch older.
Moscow is so far 3500 years old.
And so on.
I will show you this, two sites, whom is showing what I talk about, the ancient europa before the “vikings” popped up, witch is also a bizar history and fake to.
Norway is a old Finnish kindom, before the khazars came, and overrunned the native, Finns.
BUT, this is my gift to you, Russians.
Thors hammer. if you think you know something about ancient Nordic, forgett it, this will blow you sideways.
About The Sami.
This is what I regard as a historical forgery, done with and by the Norwegian state, and they gave the fake Sami people, wotch is predominant ordinary Finns and have nothing at all to do with Finnmark, what so ever.
But the culture and the rest of it incl the people is there, in this days, the Norwegain state is conducting a crime against the people whom is native to the land, us, by replacing Finnish/skoltic names with Samic and claims its theirs, and this historical forgery is exactly the same as the Israelis is conducting, and I know the Russians knows this.
In here is also the genetic maping I wriote about above, read it, it conserns Russians to.
I am a Skolt, and is a genuine Varagian.
For now, I think its anouf. educate your self.
»Finns have as Asians slightly tilted/altered eyes«
I second this observation about Finns, and I’d like to add that you can find Russians that have that same Finnish look, which is not surprising as they are direct neighbours.
The main point I’m going to make is that there is, *ethnically* speaking, no such thing as Slavs. It’s a linguistic fact, not an ethnic fact, and it should be completely obvious to anyone having travelled Eastern Europe. So-called Slavs are, in the North and West, to a largish degree the descendants of Eastern Germanic tribes (Ostgermanen: Goten, Wandalen usw.), and the Germanic element is apparent in Yugo countries and Bulgaria, too, although to my layman’s eyes in those countries Southern elements (seem to dominate). Now we get to see a lot of footage from Ukraine and people from both sides look pretty darn Germanic to me.
Note that Germanic doesn’t mean German; of course, the tribal make-up of Germany is mostly West Germanic tribes, but there’s also Celtic blood (less than in France, of course) and probably others I don’t know about.
To get things going in your head, consider that oftentimes populations from the Maghreb and Levante are referred to as *Arabs* while they look very different from the proper Arabs which inhabit the Arabian peninsula. (Think Saudi sheikh.) The only reason they are called Arabs is that today they all speak Arab.
There’s a lot of confusion. While traveling in France, I met an Israeli (immigrated from Ukraine, hence Khazar origin) who looked a lot like Mahmud Ahmadinedschad yet somehow had a dislike for Arab countries, especially Iran. He was surprised when I pointed out to him that not only did he look like that eminent Iranian president but also that Iran is not an Arab country at all. Despite this lack of education and reflection he was a fine chap, and we hiked together a couple days through the Pyrenees, although I told him I didn’t believe in the Holohoax and the gas chambers were, well, a hoax, another thing he was unaware of. Which also proves that antisemitism is stupid, all the more so as there are no semite people anywhere on this planet, only semitic languages, to wit Hebrew, Aramaic (Jesus’ native language), and Arabic.
Anyway, what’s called a nation is, certainly, to some extent, some common blood (I’m a tech guy, so let’s call this the hardware, or maybe bodyware), but then there are many layers on top such as language, religion, tradition (software, or mindware), and these are, I think, more important.
Hence there’s no aggressive intent on my part when I state with confidence that there is no such thing as an ethnic Slav, there’s only Slavic languages, and while I think this insight could do rock’n’roll with Slavistic studies it’s more likely it’ll earn you bad grades.
It could be shown, I think, by comparing various slavic languages, that they cannot relate to a hypothetical protoslavic language in the same way as modern Latin languages relate to Latin proper.
On the other hand it would be wrong to say “Slavs don’t exist!” because they do of course exist as a common culture, variously subidivided according to Europe’s convoluted history, just not in some ethnic sense as science still appears to deem necessary.
article from anna-news.info, google translate….
..”But back to the theory of Turan Duchinski. Genetics long ago refuted allegations shameful cunning Pole. Geneticists know that there haplogroup R1, which is contained in human genes, and which have been deemed Slavic, because this haplogroup – the majority Slavs, including in the Great.
Figures: carriers of haplogroup R1 are 56% of Poles, 53% of Russian (the Great), 52% of Ukrainians, 49% of Belarusians. Many carriers of this haplogroup among the Bashkirs and other Turkic peoples, and the first of its carrier appeared in Asia many years ago.
It would not have lied Duchinski, it turns out that the genetic distance between the Poles, Ukrainians and Russian – is minimal. In the last number of carriers “Slavic” haplogroup R1 even 1% less than the Russian. So much for the tour.
Why less? Because if the Great incorporated many of the Finno-Ugric peoples (Galindians, Meshchera, Moore and others.), Little Russians (Ukrainians) has incorporated many of the Turkic tribes (Berendei, black hoods, etc.). Have you noticed that among Russian blonde higher than among Ukrainians? “Brown eyes, black eyebrows,” which is sung in Ukrainian folk song – it’s Turkic heritage in Slavic blood.
Before shouting, though Russian – it turans Finno-Ugric peoples and, Ukrainian racists should remember that, firstly, the Finno-Ugric peoples – is worthy people, and, secondly, that the Ukrainians also not so clean Slavs and Turkic blood in them more than the Russian.
I wonder, would have survived refined European Duchinski news that the first carrier haplogroup R1rodilsya in Asia? How to be then with the European Duchinski most? It turns out that the Poles and Asian roots?”
Chabad seeks to build a New Khazaria in Ukraine
Check this out Saker.
I never heard of this sect/cult until about twenty minutes ago . I pop over here to see where I should post it, and – lo and behold! – if you haven’t offered EXACTLY the right opening!!
I URGE you to read it , pronto.
Jesus. And they think the Scientology crew are a problem..
Does Bot Tak know about this?
Eimar, notice that the link you are providing does not work.
just remove the letter ‘L’ at the end of the aformentioned URL in eimar clark’s posting; i.e. terminate the URL with “.htm” instead of “.html” and the link will work.
That is the correct link is:
However, even though the article claims to be written by an ex-GRU major, it sure sounds like a wacked-out conspiracy theory fiction piece.
Read it for it’s bizarre entertainment value.
I would have thought the same thing.
Until the situation in the Ukraine unfolded.
What is merely ‘bizarre’ to you, does not mean it is not believed, and so acted upon. There is a clear pattern of dual citizens operating across major domains – military, political, financial, media in very influential positions in the US and three of the main players in Ukraine are dual citizens too.
It would be very interesting to see if they also have links to Chabad. Bibi’s original surname sounds Polish – must see if I can locate it. It would be particularly interesting to know if he has a connection to the sect.
It certainly raises interesting questions about his desire to escalate tensions in the M.E – including the nuclear option.
Was the South-East of Ukraine ear-marked for exodus by the Chosen of Chosenites ?
Did Vlad The Bad – the current leader of the Kievan-Rus foil the plot? Because the demonization-by-media has more than a touch of religious fervor.
No, this is not just-another-conspiracy-theory: there are too many elements that correspond to current events.
Read it. It was obviously intended to be satirical.
But secular atheists are not particularly astute about sect/cults: the writer seems to see no irony in being a citizen of a state that predicates it’s territorial legitimacy on a religious tract – the Bible – and the Khazarian hypothesis.
It is also taken seriously by some geneticists as a ‘story of origins.’ Some of the comments were very heated, the Khazars – who seem to be synonymous with Ashkenazis – being denounced by some as ‘false Jews.’ There are inter-Jewish tensions in Israel – we just don’t hear much about them due to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
What took me aback was the designation ‘Khazar’ – as though they are a still-extant tribe. Yet Khazaria was supposedly a kingdom made up various groups – not an ethnicity . The whole thing smacks of the Nazi cult of ‘aryanism…
..and for me, anyway, sheds an even more sinister light on Kolomosky’s AZOV Battalion
If you get rid of the l on the end of theaddress and just have htm. it works.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_globalization_eu12.html doesn’t work but
seems to work.
In his lecture, “Oligarchical Topography of Ukraine“, Andrey Fursov stated that none other than Ihor Kolomoisky of Ukraine was a major donor to the Chabad sect, so that does not sound at all implausible. Ironically, Kolomoisky (who is Jewish, but not Chabad) also finances the neo-Nazi ‘Azov Battalion’ ravaging Eastern Ukraine.
A few months ago the following article was published in the Israel Times about the same subject:
Ingrid (and others), read carefully:
“Our Russian and Ukrainian correspondents Hirsh Ostropoler and I. Z. Grosser-Spass also contributed to this story”
Hersch Ostropoler (1750-1800) = jüdischer Spaßmacher, Komiker und Narr = Jewish clown, comedian, joker
Großer Spaß = German for big fun, big joke
And there are clues in the story as well, IIRC.
It’s just a joke, and you’ve been had. :)
You are on the right track. It is a known fact to many of us.
I corrected the url (changing .html to .htm ) as suggested by other readers
Everyone started out in Africa. Nobody started out where they are now. The people there, anywhere, are not the first ones there. All peoples have
* a history (which may not be theirs, but that of previous occupants of the territory who they conquered and mixed with) and
* a foundation legend/history (which seeks to explain how they got to that territory and which is less and less true the further back it goes) and
* a foundation mythology (which goes back even further, possibly to earlier homelands, and is certainly pure myth when it gets back to the talking animals/animal ancestors part).
People living on borders are always genetically mixed. Then the borders change, new combinations become border people. Peoples who were formerly one come under the rule and maybe religion of a different people. The combination change may involve enmity, causing both sides to stress the differences, or even invent some, naturally making themselves out to be better and the others worse, on whatever feature they consider most important.
When “ruling” an empire consisted mostly of collecting taxes, about the only way to manage an empire WAS to leave the existing administrators in place. They just got new bosses. Only this small bureaucratic class had to learn the language of the new rulers. But in practice the new rulers often ended up adopting much of the local language, sometimes almost totally losing their own. Meanwhile far-flung outpoints, or related tribes which had moved further, would be mixing with different earlier occupants, and developing their language in a different direction, giving us the big families of related languages we have now.
Today, with internet, we can see this happening as it happens. The propaganda and brainwashing in Ukraine may seem extreme; perhaps it is because they need to accelerate the process. But it’s a process every group has gone through in the past, in trying to build a group identity which we now call national or ethnic. Hating the Russian part of their history is the psychological ditch they need, to “wall” themselves off with, to feel they are a separate people, independent.
Arguing with them that they never really existed is only going to make this worse. A great many do not believe the Banderite nonsense, a great many hate what it means in terms of death squads in every town, but they won’t want to, or be able to, turn around and be mini-Russians. They need to find some middle path identity that isn’t harmful to them or to their Russian-feeling neighbours.
They can NOT have the myth of being ancestors of all Indo-Europeans. Thosae ancestors are long gone. But they can be allowed to own Kiev Rus’ without that meaning they are the ancestors of all 140 million Russians.
“But they can be allowed to own Kiev Rus’ without that meaning they are the ancestors of all 140 million Russians”.
This is more like shared own-ship. E.g (recently honored by Poroshenko decree) Vladimir Sviatoslavovich (Riurik) was a ruler of Novgorod (Russia), than of Kiev. He is the one who is credited with baptizing Russia. –He also invented the trident symbol, used today by Ukrainian armed forces (that in fact appeared on his coins). Earliest literature sources are shared as well.
I don’t think Russia argues against Ukraine having Kievan Rus’ ancestory; more like welcomes it really. But this is only the first part of Kiev narrative (Slava Kievskoi Rusi ! But it does not stop here; the other parts are well known from endings of popular chants, and not fit for the print) .
Kiev propaganda constantly makes further claim that Russia is NOT (Kievan) Rus’; that it is a Great Tataria ruled by khans/tsars, and they are sort of repelling those mongols once again for the sake of Europe, –as part of their war justification.
In view of shared history/mythology, that propaganda is unsustainable.
Financial Collapse Leads To War
By Dmitry Orlov
Scanning the headlines in the western mainstream press, and then peering behind the one-way mirror to compare that to the actual goings-on, one can’t but get the impression that America’s propagandists, and all those who follow in their wake, are struggling with all their might to concoct rationales for military action of one sort or another, be it supplying weapons to the largely defunct Ukrainian military, or staging parades of US military hardware and troops in the almost completely Russian town of Narva, in Estonia, a few hundred meters away from the Russian border, or putting US “advisers” in harm’s way in parts of Iraq mostly controlled by Islamic militants.
The strenuous efforts to whip up Cold War-like hysteria in the face of an otherwise preoccupied and essentially passive Russia seems out of all proportion to the actual military threat Russia poses. (Yes, volunteers and ammo do filter into Ukraine across the Russian border, but that’s about it.) Further south, the efforts to topple the government of Syria by aiding and arming Islamist radicals seem to be backfiring nicely. But that’s the pattern, isn’t it? What US military involvement in recent memory hasn’t resulted in a fiasco? Maybe failure is not just an option, but more of a requirement?
This is silly, genetics have proven the nazists wrong in their claim that Russians are “asiatic-mongrols” Russians are as “genetically pure” as Swedes or Britons. The genetic diversity in Russians from none-European racial/ethnic groups is no more then 1%. And almost all of it is in old-capitals. In the average village you have genetically pure slavs going back 5000 years.
Nobody is genetically pure. Some people are a little less mixed than others. Or got mixed a longer time ago and then not for a while, so that old mixture has had time to settle down.
I really don’t know of any villages 5000 years old still in use.
All that can be done now is, if some very old bones are found, is to check them for DNA to see how close they are to the people living there today.
Hence the Quotation marks around genetically pure. However Russinas are not more “mixed” then any other European ethnic group, that Russians are mixed is a line often pushed by nazists to delegitimized the rights of ethnic Russians.
@Kat Kan: “I really don’t know of any villages 5000 years old still in use.”
Some groundbreaking research is described in an instructive (and entertaining) book, “The Seven Faces of Eve”. The bones of a caveman were found near a village; the researcher reports only 2 present-day villagers with the same m-DNA as that original inhabitant.
You need to have a professional background in genetics (such as myself) to understand how absurd some of the material and views regarding “genetic” purity is. Let me put this lay terms: to be “genetically pure” is to be “highly inbred” and genetically non-robust (go look up the pop-culture term the 7 lethal genes to understand this). Russians are highly mixed and as a direct result are both genetically and phenotypically highly robust (much lower genetic diseases manifest in populations that are more genetically diverse, there’s also hard evidence that such populations tend to have higher average IQs, to be physically more robust and statistically have greater immunity to pathogens). …..And, subjectively, tend to be considered better looking (or sexually or genetically more attractive/desirable/compatible) then more inbred (aka “pure”) populations: You only have to travel to Brasil (highly-diverse) or Russia (highly-diverse) and compare those populations to more inbred/”pure” population backwaters in certain parts of Western Europe to understand how true that is.
Saker has opened a Pandora’s box by bringing this subject up (something he has correctly, in the past, eschewed).
You only need to read the brilliant posts by Ingrian, Kat Kan, Don Wiscachohere to understand the nuances about how populations develop, diverge, re-merge and evolve. Really, brilliant analyses by those individuals (posted here above) are much closer to the truth than to assumption ridden field of genetics that I’m involved in. (BTW mixing in so pravalent in human populations that we have to use Super-Computers to work thru all the permutations).
Despite what the idiots in the Western atheistic-malthusian MSM might have you believe, genetics is still in it’s infancy, it still has huge gaps in data, such a mapping of our dynamic running epigenetic program(s) and still hasn’t come to grips with the reality that we are actively picking up and incorporating genetic material from non-human sources in our environment, such as our surrounding flora and fauna (as well as microfauna and viruses). We are still very far from certainty of the origins each “ethnic” group on this planet.
How hard can it be to read a text properly? Do you not know the function of quotation marks? I will just write you what I wrote they other guy that does not understand what quotation marks means.
Russians are no more mixed, then any other European ethnic group, the nazi propaganda that Russians are asiatic-mongrols is just that, propaganda, genetic tests have shown that Russians are no more mixed then any other European ethnic group.
Lir, this site is moderated. When the moderator approves a batch, they posts come up in the original time order.
Your previous post may not have been visible when someone started to write something. So indeed you may find someone saying the same thing you just said “just above them” or they’re responding to an even earlier post. Patience, and understanding please.
I don’t think you read my post carefully, I am directly disagree with your contention that Russians are not more “mixed” than other so-called Europeans, listen carefully now (or read carefully now): They, the Russians, are more “mixed”. Understood? Would you like me to repeat it? Whatever genetic studies you’re claiming to have base your assertions off (such myths like only 1% non-European admixture in rural Russians) are flawed or downright wrong. It is a good thing (for Russians) that they are more genetic diverse relative to other groups (like say the people of UK or Scandinavia) not a bad thing (similar to the point Saker was making in his article about not having a problem with a Tatar identity). This principle is true (in general, at the macro-level) for any human population group. So even within a so-called “homogenous” population (i.e. within an ethnic group) when endogamous marriage barriers break down, and exogamous marriage becomes more prevalent, even in that situation the given population accrues health and IQ benefits in subsequent generations.
Again, it is a good thing for a population to be more genetically diverse and to receive genetic inputs from other successful variants (biologically speaking) to understand why re-read my previous post regarding general robustness. Being more mixed is a good thing not a bad thing, unless you considered being more inbred to be a good thing (like those idiots the Nazis did – due to their complete ignorance of genetics). It is not a badge of honor to have a lower component of non-“European” “genes” in a population, just like it’s not a badge of honor to be more inbred. These are the twisted and idiotic values of 19th century British, French and German pseudo-scientific fools masquerading as intellectuals, they are also the twisted values of their philosophical inheritors, those completely stupid Nazi racial hygiene imbeciles. Anyone who thinks that Russians are just European and not Eurasian is equally ignorant and probably is suffering from some kind of inferiority complex like the Atlantic Integrationists.
Some initial advice, if you want any credibility I suggest you first learn the simple function of quotation marks in the english language, it is not very hard for most people, and then in the future to avoid another embarrassing mistake : read the text very slowly And! Think, before you respond. It is not only basic english but basic courtesy not bother people with your errors.
That said, no, sorry, Russians are no more mixed then any other European ethnic group, be it Swedes, Germans or Italians, modern genetic studies have debunked that old Russophobic canard long ago. The source of this myth anti-Russian racism, where various enemies, most famous being the nazists, try to delegitimize the rights of ethnic Russians. Almost all admixture in in ethnic Russians today is localized to big old cities, such as Moscow.. It is a pretty common racist line used by liberals and nazists alike.
Lir I am amused at how thoroughly you’ve exposed yourself and your complexes. Your response clearly shows that. As for you focusing on spelling errors and grammar, that in itself speaks volumes about how deep your thinking is.
There’s more admixture in Eastern Europe and Russia than in Western Europe, some shallow-minded Europhiles with an inferiority complex take umbrage with this fact, but it’s still a fact. This is the usual mindset of the “Atlantic-Intregrationist” crowd and other 5-th columnists. Russian/Eurasian history is replete with documented evidence of one invasion after another; group after group from the Steppe, Central Asia, and East Asia. The evidence reflects in the phenotypical manifestation of traits in Russians and not just there genes.
It’s laughable (or pitiable) to deny this.
Hey guys, how about a timeout? There are certainly more interesting things to read and discover on this blog than to engage into lengthy debates concerning “quotation marks” and genetics. Lets find the end of this.
[Note from Moderation: Apparently it still requires some help to bring this fight to an end. I’ll assist gladly. From now on I will replace the tit-for-tat replies of this debate with my own text. Lets move on guys. There is so much other stuff to read.]
On the scale of genetics, robustness is conferred by mixing traits ordered in inbred lines. The cosmos on all scales manifests by the simultaneous interaction of chaos(mixing) and order(inbred lines).
Your agenda is obvious as you label mixing ‘good’ and condemn ‘inbred lines’. Your judgement is the diversity agenda of world elites, as they seek to atomize humanity in the ancient dictum of ‘divide and conquer’.
A closed mind cannot see scales of manifestation, even as the gold fish cannot conceive dimensions beyond the gold fish bowl.
Yes Bob, you must be right. Really! I must be a supporter or member of the nebulous “World Elites” who are trying to:
“divide and conquer” us by ….. getting us to all mix and inter-marry and become one unified population…. yes that really makes complete sense!
Wow with logic like that, the possibilities are end-less!!!!
It’s difficult to find the end of it when people start accusing each other with their own assumptions.
But lets give it a try this time, shall we?
[Note from Moderation: Apparently it still requires some help to bring this fight to an end. I’ll assist gladly. From now on I will replace the tit-for-tat replies of this debate with my own text. Lets move on guys. There is so much other stuff to read.]
That does not seem very fair, you are deleting everyone comment execpt the troll While-do-loop? Certainly if …
[Note from Moderation: I think While-do-loop got the message. It’s you who is still insisting on continuation. Lets move on Lir. There is no point in all this name-calling.]
Logic and creativity are not incompatible, unless we are doing only logic, then the real world does not interest us.
Now, I give you my cousin to further our unending search for truth in realms beyond predictability.
It is the accident of birth which one must transcend, but not everyone or the world would stop!
My cousin……Jean-Paul Van Bendegem: Logic and Creativity
@Bob (at 3.28pm). What you call “mixing” geneticists call “recombination”; and it often results in a phenomenon they call “hybrid vigor”. Sexual selection (which recombines different genetic strains) is extremely successful because it promotes hybrid vigor. In popular mythology, the story of Ruth and Boaz “mixing” to produce David, a vigorous hybrid.
Prof.Lysenko set back Russian agriculture by refusing to do research on hybrid vigor. Russian agriculture was re-set on the right course after Khruschev visited the U$A; his eyes nearly popped out when he saw the giant maize cobs of the Hi-Bred Corn Company.
Haha,you hit on my favorite line of study,”history of ethnicity in Europe”.Its common to say that Central and Eastern Europe (Russia very much included) are “crossroad nations”.They have for many centuries had many peoples “cross” them.Settling,and contributing their DNA to those nations and peoples.While that’s true of Europe as a whole.No more so than in the East.Some examples,40% (at least) of Romanians are determined to have Slav ancestry,50% of Hungarians (not even to mention the many,many,Hungarians that descended from German immigrants),and 1/3 of Eastern Germans have some Slavic ancestry.While Poland had thousands,maybe hundreds of thousands of German settlers through the ages.Mostly assimilated into the Polish nation.And for hundreds of years have been Polish.The same,though even on a larger scale even in the Czech Republic.While much of the Eastern Slovaks are descendants of Rus speaking people (even until the 19th century for some). Much of Northern Belarus was util at least the 16th century Lithuanian speaking.And the Carpathian region of today’s Ukraine was until the same period mostly ethnic Vlach (Romanian).Over the centuries they assimilated into the “Rus” ethnicity.While in modern Southern Russia and Eastern Novorossia there are traces of Caucasian and “Tatar” ancestry in many people’s DNA.Equally in Northern Russia there are many of “Finnic” ancestry (including reportedly Putin and Andropov).And in the Moscow region DNA tests show a large percentage of the original Slavic tribes there are brothers of other Slavic tribes that settled Eastern Poland.As to the “Tatars”.We really are talking of several different groups.The Kazan Tatars and the Crimean Tatars in the main.Except for a Turkic ruling elite and warrior group originating in the East (and the centuries assimilated them).The majority of those peoples are very mixed.Among the Kazan Tatars,with Finnic and Slavic elements mostly.And among the Crimean Tatars equally so.With Caucasian,and Slavic peoples mostly.Just before the Russians ended the Tatar raids.It was estimated almost 75% of Crimea’s population was made up of slaves or their descendants.And as we’ve heard before,most of the Crimean slave trade was in Slav slaves.
Before anyone think this is unique to the East.Let’s examine Western Europe for a second.In the UK,scholars say the native (non-recent immigrant population) has a bedrock of various Celtic peoples.Layered by a Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) layer.Sprinkled with Norman French DNA also found in many.And as we also know,several millions of people are even more recent (since the Middle Ages) immigrants from Ireland.And Ireland itself has seen vast numbers of “British” settlers over the centuries.In Spain,there is Berber DNA in the South,mostly.And in Catalonia in the 17th and 18th centuries a,great immigration from France brought many,many,people.That over the centuries assimilated as “Spanish”.In France,besides the large numbers of Germanic immigrants that settled,and intermarried there (Franks and Goths).You have Flemish in the far North,Germans in the far Eastern departments (Lorraine and Alsace).You have Italian immigration throughout French history.Historians say 5 million Italians in the 19th century.Many,many,stayed and assimilated.Have you noticed the numerous French politicians and others with Italian sounding surnames.In Belgium,its disputable how many people are descended from Flemish or Walloon backgrounds in the two communities.But Brussels itself,a mostly French speaking city in a Flemish region.Has many of its “French” with Flemish surnames.In Finland as much as 15% or more of the population is thought to have Swedish ancestry.And probably in Sweden many are of a Finnic background.While far Southern Swedes are really of Danish ancestry.So really all Europe is a mixed continent of many different European ethnicity.
And lets not think Europe is unique either.In the Maghreb of North Africa,most “Arabs” are Arab speaking Berbers.Who are leavened by vast ancient European ancestry themselves.And in Egypt the mix of peoples is very much seen.Ancient Egyptian DNA mostly,but heavy mixture of Southern European and Arab tribal DNA.While Southern Egypt also adds heavy Nubian DNA.The Syrian,Palestinian,Lebanese,Jordanian peoples are he results of native peoples,with Southern European mixture,leavened with Arab DNA.Like North Africa most “Arabs” are Arabic speaking,not truly Arab descended.In Turkey,the vast,vast,majority are native Anatolian peoples with an overlay of Turkic groups added.I could go on and on,but the message is clear.There is no such thing as “pure” one group or the other anymore.What in the modern world determines “nationhood” (in the European sense,of ethnicity) is language and culture.In the late 18th,early 19th century,movements started to claim nations on the basis of nationalism.If you spoke the same language (or dialects of one) and followed the same culture.You were considered a “nation”.That,over most of Europe,especially Eastern and Southeast Europe has led to the nation states we see today.In Russia, it has led more to the concept of the “Russian Mir”.Otherwise,how would such a huge area be united effectively.The problem with the fake Ukrainian nationalist ideology (besides its adoption of fascism),is it doesn’t recognize the difference between “regionalism” and “nationalism”.Two examples to show the point: Bavarian’s speak a Bavarian German dialect,and yet consider themselves also “Germans”.In France,the Southern and Northern French speak at home different dialects of the “French” language.Yet who thinks Toulouse isn’t really France.
(sidenote: All peoples are equal,with a fascinating history.The facts stated,are just that,facts.I don’t consider one group or the other as “better” than the other.But I do find the studies of all these peoples interesting.And that is why I’m always horrified at the misuse of nationalism by the Ukrainian fascists)
Uncle Bob 1:
The concept of nationality and modern national groupings goes far back from the 18th/19th century. Already at the Council of Constance in the early 1400’s, the Church Council was seated by nations. At the Universities in the middle ages people were also grouped into nations in their living and learning arrangements for obvious reasons of vernacular language.
In the Orthodox East, from the time of the christianization of the Bulgars and Serbs, national groupings within the Church occurred as a result of the desire of the Slavs for ecclesiastical independence from the Patriarch of Constantinopele.
Its the common peoples acceptance of nationalism that dates to more modern times on a mass scale.In the cases you mention it was an upper class concept.The oldest established nations of course had a concept of nationality (though it usually meant for the noble class).But all the smaller groups in Europe,and the lower classes only began to be nationally conscious in the late 18th and early 19th century.I believe the writings of Johann Gottfried Herder were the birth of what we consider modern nationalism.Taking Ukraine as an example.From the 16th century on,until the 18-19th.Ukraine lost the vast majority of its noble classes (the only ones that counted in those days).They intermarried into the Polish nobility,converted to Catholicism,Polonized their language,names,and culture.And while still claiming (in some cases) to be descended from Rus princely families or Rus Boyar families.They became totally Polonized. Acquired lands in ethnic Polish territories and became accepted as Poles.At least one family even becoming Kings of Poland,Michael 1,Wiśniowiecki (Rus, Vyshnivetsky) .While others climbed the heights of Polish society,and became Kingmakers in Polish politics.An example being the Prince Czartoryski family.So powerful and famous they were known in Polish history as “the family”.By then with no trace of Rus feeling or loyally to their Rus descent.
I would like to add that ruling class in Poland referred to themselves as “you Sarmatian (in their language it would be like Ty Sarmato)” , which in reality referred to their North Persian origins (the real Arians).
Funny enough, I found something of that nature in one of the Russian articles.
Haha,true.But that was only a Noble idea meant to deny that they were the same people ethnically as their serfs.They created a “myth” that Polish Nobles were descended from Sarmatian tribes.They didn’t explain how more and more people were added to that Noble class over the years by ennoblement by the Kings.Until at the end around 10% of Poland’s population came to be considered “Noble”.One of the,if not “the” highest percentages in Europe.They went into horrors when after the partitions of Poland,the Prussian and Russian governments made them produce proof of Noble ancestry to be registered in those countries lists of Noble families.Many of the lessor Nobles lost their status because of that.And in those days, there were many rights,that only Noble families could enjoy.So it wasn’t just frivolousness and pride that made them want to be considered Nobles.Only Nobles could have leadership positions in the governments (even local government).Only Nobles could be military officers.And there were legal immunities,and tax and land ownership benefits,that only Nobles were granted in those societies.
Hello Saker. This is very interesting.
My parents come from Koenigsberg and were descended from the Teutonic Knights. This is 100% certain because of our family name. But, what is interesting relating to this story is that my blood type is B type, which is very rare in Western Europe but 36% of the Chinese have this blood type. Also, when I was born, I looked Chinese or Mongol, and my black hair fell out and the blonde hair grew in…. A little Tatar blood somewhere in the past no doubt!
Prussia was named after a Slavic people “The Prossen” who lived there and were assimilated by the Germanic people. The Teutonic Knights invaded Russia after they took the Baltics in one of many crusades from the West . The main army was defeated by 20 year old Alexander Nevsky’s soldiers when he lured them onto frozen lake Peipus and after killing some 400 invaders he sank the rest used his cannons to break the ice around them sinking most of them into the frigid waters
Actually the Prussians weren’t Slavic.They were “Balts”,related closely to Lithuanians and Latvians:
“The Old Prussians or Baltic Prussians (German: Pruzzen or Prußen; Latin: Pruteni; Latvian: Prūši; Lithuanian: Prūsai; Polish: Prusowie; Kashubian: Prësowié) were an ethnic group of indigenous Baltic tribes that inhabited Prussia, the lands of the southeastern Baltic Sea in the area around the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons. They spoke a language now known as Old Prussian and followed pagan Prussian mythology.
During the 13th century, the Old Prussians were conquered by the Teutonic Knights, and gradually assimilated over the following centuries. The former German state of Prussia took its name from the Baltic Prussians, although it was led by Germans who had assimilated the Old Prussians; the old Prussian language was extinct by the 17th or early 18th century….”
In the early eleventh century, Polish king divided his kingdom between five of his sons, the guy who was in the north invited the one of the Black cross wearing crusader “clan” in order to protect him from his brothers to the south. Those guys were generally referred to as Germans and “called Krzyżacy by polish people”.
And yes, Russian king Nevski was fighting the same lot and defeated their incursion.
And no, I am not Polak, but well versed in Polish and eastern European history.
Thanks Uncle Bob looks like my source is lacking as to Prussia (Prussen) being Slav or Balt. In H W Koch’s “A History of Prussia “The region had many Slav tribes and it has many Slav place names. He writes not with certainty, as you do, saying its believed that they were Belts, however their customs were Slavic. Its interesting Slavic tribes, Slavic names, Slavic customs—Any academic literature on this???
Blood group B has its highest frequency in Northern India and neighboring Central Asia, and its incidence diminishes both towards the west and the east, falling to single digit percentages in Spain. It is believed to have been entirely absent from Native American and Australian Aborigines populations prior to the arrival of Europeans in those areas.
It is thought blood type B is a recent evolutionary development arising in nomadic peoples living in close proximity to cattle, horse, sheep, and pig diseases. I am blood type B as well, hence my research on the subject. You may be pleased to note blood type B is the longest lived human blood type, but blood type B’s often suffer from allergies due to a hyperactive immune system.
You’ve also got to keep in mind, that during the middle ages wars weren’t between people. They were between nobles who only used people as their armies. So when a nation invaded another nation this really just meant, that an army charged in, fighting ensued and in the end one noble dictated some terms of border demarcations or other implications on sovereignty to another noble.
So the “tatar-mongol yoke” could very well just be a small army charging around, overwhelming nobles, subdueing them and moving on without hassling the actual population all that much. That would also explain why they disappeared without much of a trace too.
Nice to have a new article from you again, Saker. I am especially grateful for your thoughts on this topic, about which I know almost nothing. If what you’re saying is true, then maybe the word ‘Tartar’ was really more of a social or political designation than a truly ethic one, much like ‘Soviet’ or ‘British’.
Saker, can you post some links or references to population studies concerning genetic markers that would illuminate the genetic interconnections among present-day Ukrainians, Russians and Central Asians and… (recognizing that modern borders are arbitrary)?
I don’t think anyone who doesn’t have an axe to grind or a pocket to pick believes there’s a difference between the people’s of Moscow and Kiev other than physical distance.
The reality is, the West positioned Ukraine as they did the “countries” of the Middle East at the end of the second world war. The thinking obviously was: it worked before, why not again? That the charade is still ongoing is a testament to the stupid tenacity of the Chaos empire builders. Sadly, that’s why it won’t be over until a Russian “invasion”: the ignorant, arrogant West can’t understand why it’s not going by their playbook.
Ukraine’s monthly average salary has fallen to a level below that of the poorest African countries. And Ukraine is much colder than any African nation. See the graphic at the link:
This comment not relevant to the post, but relevant to Ukraine:
there is now and ISIS – Kiev alliance, from a source I trust:
The importance of this cannot be underestimated – especially for those sympathetic to the Novorussians. The more we can publicize about this alliance the more the stupid EUropeans are likely to come to their senses!
We have all heard the Ukrainian nationalist line: they are the true Slavs inheritors of the Kievan Rus while the modern Russians are really either Tatars or Ugro-Finns or God knows what else.
Like that nazi rubbish about “Aryans”, that is simply the bigotry of one imaginary group – “the purebreeds”, trying to diminish another imaginary group they denigrate as the “half-breeds”/”mongrels” to justify their own insecurity about being inferior themselves. This is entailed in all variations of supremacist thinking/indoctrination. Supremacist thinking is a manifestation of perceived inferiority. Keep that in mind. The bigot isn’t a bigot because they think they are superiour. They are bigoted because they are worried sick that they cant measure up to those whom their prejudices are directed against, so they inflate their own self esteem out of the negative by putting down those they think who actually are superiour. Or killing them off to make sure they have no “competition”.
Simple arithmetic, really.
If you are number 2, and you kill off all the Number 1s, YOU get to be Number One.
Looking at those Novorossiyans, what they are achieving — absolute #1 all of them. And we have the chance to see how they do it. They don’t define the enemy by how evil it is. They define themselves by how good they are. they emphasise peaceful, brave, generous, helpful, hardworking, kind, decent…..a good adjective in front of every description of people. Brainwashing??? no, just a positive self-description. And they don’t add “unlike those enemy who are…[bad opposite]..”
Even when it might be understandable, to be rough with a POW, if one FEELS like some revenge, another says, no, WE DON”T DO THAT. They might curse and wish death on the enemies’ children, when they themselves have just been bombed. But they only shouted at those paraded prisoners,. One woman dragged them down to kneel, but nobody even tried to kick them once they were down.
Every minor holiday they can find, every minor chance to commemorate or celebrate something, and a stack of excuses for concerts and competitions, they put on a good show — to publicly and jointly tell themselves they are good people with a far-reaching history and a united future. That they ARE one people.
Wonderfully said. This is what “we” the civilized westerners lack.
“And then there the famous quote by, I think, Napoleon, who said “scratch the Russian and you will find the Tatar”.”
Presumably “Tatar” is a pejorative term.
If so. why is “Tatar” a pejorative term?
Is it still a pejorative term today?
And as Uncle Bob says above,. there was a lot of migration, not associated with conquest. The peasants who never left their home village would retain their language and customs for many generations. Artists, artisans, traders and administrators who moved into cities tended to assimilate faster.
I claim to be Hungarian. My 16 great great grandparents (that’s the grandfather of my grandfather) were of 12 different ethnicities. And this is normal there. Three today would be called German, back then were known by the principalities they came from ie Saxony, Schwabia and Bavaria. Waves of immigrants had been invited in from 1718 when the last Hungarian territory was freed from the Ottoman Turks. Some of the first lot died in the plague, so they invited more, then another lot when their own lands suffered devastating floods.
All these Germans had problems in the War. They had to think about who they are and who they will be, which Army to join, what to fight for; and many to suffer the consequences of the wrong choice (Soviet labour camp or fleeing or deported to live in a devastated Germany). My maternal grandfather, a widely published writer, Hungaricised his Bavarian name, to get rid of regular visits from pro-Nazis insisting he “must be” one of them. I still have a copy of the article he wrote explaining why he has to say farewell to his name, to dissociate totally from that murderous philosophy.
So, who are you? what are you? why? did you get a choice?
In Ukraine’s Transcarpathia, most of it has been under 5 different States in 100 years… roughly every 20 years the rulers changed. People name their newborns according to the current regime,. otherwise just go on being themselves.
Your family story is very interesting.One of my favorite countries to study is Hungary.It has a complicated but compelling ethnic history.Once the Magyar tribes settled there (in the 800’s),they assimilated most of the previous scattered inhabitants (Slavs in the main,related to today’s Slovene,Slovaks,and Serbs ,but also Vlachs,Germanic tribes,and Avars).Then in the 1200’s with the Mongol invasion much of Hungary was devastated and they brought in German and Cuman settlers to help repopulate (as well as more Slavs and Vlachs).By the early 1500’s around 75% of the population was considered Magyar.Those settlers having been assimilated mostly.And in those days Hungary included Slovakia,large parts of today’s Romania.And bits some large,some small, of today’s Serbia,Slovenia,Ukraine,Poland,and even Austria.The Ottoman invasion in the early 1500’s and over a century of war that resulted from it, destroyed Hungary.At the end,the Magyar population had shrunk to around 36% of the country.Which is why the German settlers you spoke of, from all over the “Germanies” were offered land to settle there.The Pest area of today’s “Budapest” had became an almost totally German speaking city.As well as many other large cities.With the rise of nationalism,and the attractiveness of Magyar culture to the immigrants,many,many,of them began to assimilate to “Magyardom”.So that by WW1,Magyars made up around 55% of the population.A far cry from the pre-Ottoman 75%,but much higher than the 36% left after the Ottoman wars.A huge number of the middle and upper classes were made up of descendants of immigrant families,and from Magyarized minority groups.As examples,Kossuth himself was of Slovak background.And Hungary’s national poet,Petofi,was either of Slovak or Serb background (I’ve heard claims for both),with his mother being Slovak.And at the time of WW2 almost all Hungary’s military general staff had German ethnic backgrounds.It was a common policy in Hungary to Magyarize family names,so sometimes its harder to tell a families ethnic make-up (that of course was the purpose,full Magyarization).The Austro-Hungarian defeat in WW1 spelled the end of the Kingdom of Hungary.And a disaster for the Magyar people almost as great as the Ottoman days.Though making up 55% of the population,Hungary was stripped of around 2/3’s of its land.Leaving vast numbers of Magyars as aliens in their own homelands.Including hundreds of thousands right on the borders given over to newly foreign states,that in general oppressed and dispossessed them.That of course led to hatred and paved the way for Hungary to join with Hitler to try and get the loss territories back.An interesting fact of that period is that even the leader of the pro-nazi nationalist Arrow Cross movement,Szalasi (Salossian),was born in Slovakia,into a family of Armenian,German,Magyar,Slovak,and Rusyn background.The end of that war saw Hungary again devastated.And the oppression even worse for Magyars in neighboring states.It was years before that settled down.And even today in Slovakia,Romania,and Ukraine,Magyars are sometimes oppressed.The fate of Hungary is one of the failures in my opinion of the war settlements of both WW1 and WW2.
The story of the Magyar “oppression” in Romania is pure bunkum. Unless you consider the time when the Democratic Union of Hungarians in Romania (Hungarian: Romániai Magyar Demokrata Szövetség, RMDSz; Romanian: Uniunea Democrată Maghiară din România, UDMR) is the main political organisation representing the ethnic Hungarians of Romania) are not in government (the Romanian one at that) as “oppression”. They have been represented in the Romanian Parliament in all legislatures since 1989.
Really? If you mean right now,then yes,the EU has made Romania more circumspect on discriminating against Magyars.But after Romania seized the territories.Thousands of Hungarians were expelled.Some were killed.And Hungarian owned lands confiscated,schools closed,and public employee’s fired from their jobs,and denied their pensions.That policy,blowing hot and cold,depending on who was in power in Bucharest lasted until WW2.After the war many more Hungarians were expelled or imprisoned.And the policy of Romanization of the Hungarian areas (including the Szekler areas).Was pushed very violently.As of today there is much support among Hungarian-Romanians for an autonomous Szekler (who make up half or more of the ethnic Hungarian minority of around a million and a half) homeland:
“On 10 March 2013 thousands gathered to demonstrate for Szekler autonomy.László Tőkés also participated on the march.The protest was called “Székely Szabadság Napja” (the day of the Szekler freedom).
March for Autonomy – 2013.10.27
In Autumn 2013, the “Great Szekler’s March for Autonomy” was held with thousands of people who formed a 53-kilometer long human chain in Szeklerland.
On 10 March 2014 thousands demonstrated for Szekler autonomy in Târgu Mureș.The program bore the same name as the earlier “Székely Szabadság Napja” (“the day of the Szekler freedom”). ”
A very many Americans know little about Eastern European peoples,history,and cultures.I am not one of them.
don’t forget the czango peoples
I had a go at their folk dances with Zoltan Nagy, a workshop in Austria…………can see dances some on youtube
wikipedia extract “The Council of Europe has expressed its concerns about the situation of the Csángó minority culture, and discussed that the Csángós speak an early form of Hungarian and are associated with ancient traditions, and a great diversity of folk art and culture, which is of exceptional value for Europe. The Council also mentioned that (although not everybody agrees on this number) it is thought[by whom?][timeframe?] that between 60,000 and 70,000 people speak the Csángó language. It has also expressed concerns that despite the provisions of the Romanian law on education, and repeated requests from parents there is no teaching of the Csángó language in the Csángó villages, and, as a consequence, very few Csángós are able to write in their mother tongue. The document also discussed that the Csángós make no political demands, but merely want to be recognized as a distinct culture and demand education and church services in the Csángó language.”
Laszlo Tokes is a well-known Soros agent.
Do you have any sources for that, Flor? The revolution that overthrew Ceauşescu. did start as a protest around Tokes but it doesn’t have a colour revolution smell about it.
Yes, I do. I read it a few months ago, in a series of articles about the Romanian 1989 revolution at the Voice of Russia.
I’m surprised you don’t know that about the reformed pastor Tokes. Most Hungarian Catholics do know this, especially those who are pro-Russian and anti-Soros.
Bratislava we used to call Pozsony, and it was the capital while the Turks had Buda. It still has a fair size ethnic Hungarian population; Slovak kids learn Hungarian playing in the street. Hungarians have their own school.. Victor Orban has been giving out Hungarian passports to all ethnics in surrounding areas, which briefly caused fears about territorial intentions but is ok now.
Transcarpathia, well, you know how that is, it’s in Ukraine. They don’t treat anyone well there right now.
Transylvania was very badly treated in Ceausescu times, a lot were forcibly moved out and Romanians moved in, to break them up. Don’t hear much about them these days.
Croatia ditto. Trouble brewing in Vojvodina, originally the first area Germans were encouraged into; today they’re down to a few thousands, while there’s more than 200,000 Hungarians; bit majority Serbs., But EUSA is playing games there. Bad games, moving in Muslims hoping to stir religion-based trouble. If they manage to make a war that’s a lot of refugees though.
Many people on one level would like the old bigger country back, because “we waz robbed” badly at Trianon, no other country got that much taken from them for losing a war. But, since then…. so many others there it would cause endless trouble with all them becoming minorities. Especially now in increasingly nationalist times; they were minorities back then too, but fewer of them, and it different times.
At least 8 or 9 fairly common surnames are the names of other nationalities, eg Török, Németh, Horvát (Turk, German, Croatian). ,
@Transylvania was very badly treated in Ceausescu times, a lot were forcibly moved out and Romanians moved in, to break them up. Don’t hear much about them these days.
This is unfortunately a half truth. No Hungarians have been moved out from Transylvania. Romanians from other parts of Romania came to Transylvania to work in the developing industries. Many Hungarians moved to the capital Bucharest in Party and government positions.
The bad blood between Hungarians and Romanians runs deep, one thousand years of territorial disputes. Western historiography and public opinion always favored Hungarians because they were representative of the Catholic, civilized, aristocratic and cultured West against the unwashed, smelly, uncouth Orthodox Romanian peasants, who had the gall to resist the attempts to convert them to Catholicism, to impose the Magyar language and to claim that the land was theirs. At times they committed even the unspeakable crime to call for the Russians help.
That is also a half-truth.Its very much an open question whose land those areas belonged too.Until the Ottoman’s the Banat and all the plains areas was heavily Magyar.Romanians from Wallachia fled over the years from Ottoman and their Romanian Boyar hirelings to those areas.Even at the end of WW1 large border areas were mostly Magyar and seized by Romania with the Allies letting them do it.While in the Carpathian Mountains there was a large area almost solidly Magyar (Szekler) that was granted to Romania:
“A land reform law was passed, which took land from the Hungarians and handed it over to Romanians. More than 200,000 Hungarian families, those of state, district, city and township officials, clerks and other public workers were evacuated and sent across the new Hungarian border with only the possessions they could carry with them. The use of the Hungarian language was abolished from all public places. All Hungarian publications, including literary magazines and books were placed under rigid censorship. Hugh SetonWatson wrote in his book “Eastern Europe Between the Wars” (Archon Books, 1962) on page 300301: “The Hungarians became second class citizens in Transylvania.” The American Committee for the Rights of Religious Minorities reported: “The administrative oppression, the violent enforcing of the Romanian language, the aggressive hostility… all these are aimed for the total destruction of the established school system. The laws of 1925 serve as oppressive political and nationalistic tools against the minorities. ” (Religious Minorities in Transylvania, The Bacon Press, Boston, 1925).
In 1940, the Axis powers ordered the return of Northern Transylvania to Hungary, reuniting 1,200,000 Hungarians with their Motherland, while still leaving about 600,000 under Romanian domination. About 100,000 of these Hungarians became the victims of the angry Romanian retaliation between 1940 and 1945. In the fall of 1944, when the Romanians returned into Northern Transylvania behind the advancing Russian army, another 100,000 Hungarians were exterminated or deported into death camps.”
“Transylvania was returned to Romania in 1945 and the oppression continued. Hungarians were not allowed to use their own language or practice their customs. They continued to do so in secret but if they were discovered they were beaten or imprisoned. From 1967 on, under the dictatorship of Ceausescu, the Romanization intensified. Hungarian educators were persecuted and the Hungarian system of higher education abolished. The Hungarian University at Kolozsvár became Romanian and also the Hungarian High Schools. The History of Transylvania was deleted from the school text books and is gradually being re-introduced in a much altered Romanian version.
The Hungarian citizens were forced to assimilate into the Romanian nation. The slightest attempt to preserve Hungarian cultural heritage was punishable by life imprisonment or even death. Ceausescu ordered the destruction of churches, even villages, to effect his ethnic cleansing. Cemeteries were destroyed, tombstones broken, Hungarian names erased. In 1988, he announced a plan to destroy 8000 villages. The eradication of Hungarian culture included the Romanization of the names of Hungarian heroes whom the Romanians claimed as their own and the destruction of their statues. The traditional Transylvanian carved gates were burned, as were the carved wooden headstones in the cemeteries, in order to destroy any trace of Hungarian culture.”
And unlike Bulgaria,I don’t recall Romania as being particularly pro-Russian.Certainly not when they took Bessarabia during the Russian civil war.Or during WW2 when Romania allied with Hitler to attack the USSR.And were given lands including Odessa as war booty during Barbarossa.And surely not now when they are leagued with NATO,offering bases for attacks on the RF.And are trying to con Moldova into a union with them.It would also appear that the British,French,and Americans,as well as Italians must have favored Romania somewhat.No country in WW1 got away with more looted territory than Romania did.They more than doubled the country in that war.Going from an almost purely Romanian speaking state to one with a third of the population being minority peoples.
Sorry, I am not picking on you. You just happened to touch on interesting subjects.
Valachia- people are called Vlachs. Romania tries to lay claim to these people, but here is a twist.
Polish people call them (Vlachs) Wołosi, their kingdom Wołochy in order to differentiate from Italy which was/is called Włochy. See the difference?
This is because they were considered descendants of Rome, as actually they were Greek Romans who were given those lands after the service in Roman Legions.
Why I say that?
Other Slavic people (Bulgarians, Russians) call them “Vlasi”, the government in those Slavic languages is referred to as Vlast, while the the king was called Vladica or Władyka in Polish (hence the names Władysław in Polish, Vladimir in Russian and Bulgarian). Therefore they (the Vlachs) were the government people otherwise representing Roman Empire.
Language study of the Vlach language conducted by Greek professor from Krete in 1913 in cooperation with a Romanian professor concluded that 65% of Vlach language is Homeric Greek, 25% Latin, the rest slavic and lets call it Albanian.
As a curiosity, in what is known today as Romania until their independence from Turkey, the language taught in schools was Greek, while people continued speak their local dialects. It was only after the independence that written Romanian language was created.
You can draw your own conclusion and do not have to agree with what I just said.
1). The people you’re speaking of are called Aromanians. No Romanian would equate Romanians with Aromanians although our languages are related and many of them are currently living on Romanian territory.
2). Romanian language doesn’t have dialects, if you don’t count Aromanian, Istro-Romanian and Megleno-Romanian.
3). Greek language was imposed by the Phanariot rulers in Moldova and Wallachia, learned and used by the upper classes. Although Romanian language has loaned Greek words as well as Turkish, the Romanian people kept speaking their native language.
Glad I could help.
Anon and Uncle Bob:
Vlach, Welsh, etc. are all cognates of a German language word borrowed over into Slavic and other languages which meant Roman, and referred to the native Celto-Latin speaking Roman peoples that the Germans encountered. The word is found all along the Germanic-Romance language border – Wales, Vallois, and Wallachia are but three prime examples.
The Romanians are the descandants of the Latin speaking Romans who formerly lived in the Balkans. Emperor Justinian was one of them, and as recently as the end of the Napoleonic Wars, they still formed a majority in much of Dalmatia before the Croatians moved into the urban centers such as Zara and Fiume. They were historically centered around the Danube between Belgrade and in Dacian Wallachia up to Bucharest. To this day they still live on the Serbian side of the Danube there and persist in speaking Romanian. The Romans who remained in this area after the Slavic invasion (i.e. those who did not leave for the Dalmatian Coast or Greece and Constantinople) and then the Magyar invasion were especially noted for favoring a pastoral existence as shepherds, and were often called in history “the Shepherds of the Romans.” This nomadic existence allowed them to range eastward and northward with their flocks of sheep and goats from their Dacian homeland into Wallachia, Moldavia, Bessarabia and even beyond the Dniestr and Bug into Ukraine. This accounds for why even today Romanian villages can be found in the Odessa and Mykolaiv Oblasts well beyond Moldava. The rich grasslands fed their flocks, and when maruaders like the Hungarians, Cumans, Tatars and others threatened, they could easily fall back to the shelter of the Carpathian Mountains or if necessary the safety of the East Roman Empire across the Danube. The Christianization of the Romanians was undertaken very late in history and was accomplished by the efforts of the Bulgarians, Serbs, and Rusyns. This accounts for the Romanians historically actually using Church Slavonic in their Liturgy, and not Latin. The first Bishops in the area were not noted until around AD 1300.
Regarding Hungarians and Romanians, Transylvania was governed under a compact that twas called the Union of the Three Nations – which were the Magyar Nobility; the Szekley, who were Hungarian speaking border guards purposefully settled at the eastern point of Transylvania, but not understood to be Magyars, and the Saxon Germans of the Siebenburgen (Hermannstadt, Bistritz, etc.) who were also settled to be border guards as well as to undertake trade tot he south via the River Olt. This compact denied the existence of the Romanian peasantry. Either because they were of no numeric and political significance, or because they actually did not exist in any significant numbers. Your axe being ground will inform your historical perspective here. The Romanians over the course of history rose significantly in population in Transylvania until they formed a majority by the 1800’s.
Before Bratislava was Hungarian Pozsony, it was called Pressburg and was a majority German city right up to Slovak independence in 1918.
Actually, as the Hungarian king Andrew II called in 1291 a meeting of “universibus Nobilibus, Saxonibus, Siculis et Olachis”, I wouldn’t say the Romanians were either too few or of no significance. The reason of excluding the Romanians from the Union of the Three was rather the ascension of Moldova and Wallachia – two independent\later autonomous Romanian principalities right across the Carpathians. Too tempting for the Transylvanian Romanians.
You forget the massacres committed by the Hungarians against the Romanians in the period between 1940-1944.
It’s a short movie with some of the survivors of these massacres, some of them were children at the time. A lot of Romanians were killed by their own Hungarian neighbours, children decapitated and other gruesome things.
Who is interested to see the truth should better watch it now, because the Hungarians make false copyright claims about everything accessible in English about the true history of Transylvania, in order to have it taken down by youtube. Several videos have disappeared that way. And instead it’s full of the revisionist Hungarian propaganda.
But luckily there are still some great history books available.
I’m afraid, Saker, that you have opened a bigger can of worms than you expected. At least I hope so.
A video like that makes it harder to claim 100% victimhood. But those promoting it are using it to justify their own bad actions.
Once again I must emphasise it is not a competition. It does not depend on body counts or gallons of blood, who was more evil. It doesn’t even depend on numbers of beheaded children or any other appeal to emotions. In fact trying to horrify the viewer is manipulation and should ring loud alarm bells.
Look at how AAA massacred BBB does not justify how BBB treated AAA at some other time in history…. especially BEFORE the massacring which may have been a reaction to earlier treatment. Very often both sides pick on something, ideally very bloody, they can use to make themselves out as the innocent victims. This naturally makes the others the nasty aggressors. The victimhood then justifies every action against the enemy as “self defence”.
The Balkans are the prime example of this. The breakup of Yugoslavia was to be expected, considering the centuries of enmities in the region. Outside forces ALWAYS build on the existing differences, it was not an EUSA or NATO invention. Would-be conquerors enlist one side against the other, after success use one side to help oppress or rule over the other
We’ve had decent people here from several sides of former Yugoslavia, who turn feral and vicious at the first word denying their victimhood, or worse, suggesting they may have wronged the others in something. The reactions here are identical, whoever they are. The stories the same. Only the names are changed. A forum like this should be a safe environment for people to recognise that….. the other is the same as me.
The individual today did not do that bad thing to you in 1930 or 1887 or 1605. None of you were around. Chances are most of “you” only moved to the territory where that evil happened AFTER it happened, and you just absorbed the victim story into your cultural history (along with a lot of other local customs and words).
Whole peoples are not bad. Governments have done bad things. Elected or emperors or invaders or ruling classes, for their own benefit. The ordinary people used as the troops to carry out the atrocities are as much victims as the blood-victims are (cf the unwilling untrained Ukie conscripts today, being shot at from behind if they won’t fight).
I was wondering why so many Catholics accepted the badmouthing of their faith on this site.
And whad’ya know ? They were closet Hungarians.
LOL Flor. You must be psychic to know when there are Catholics on this site. LOL. While Roman Catholicism is the most widespread, there are several other Christian faiths including Orthodox, and many non-Christians, including Jews and a small number of Muslims. Don’t go scratching Hungarians, you never know what you might find.
When scratching Hungarians, especially those on the internet, it’s true that you never know what you might find, just like you said.
However, a lot of Catholics, including your own self, revealed themselves on this site at the article about Lavrov and the crusades. I believe it was you who asked Saker there if he was trolling his own readers. And I must add that I was extremely impressed with their courageous defending of their denomination. I have a lot of sympathy for the Catholics – if you ask Saker, I’m sure he will confirm it.
Just a few words, if you don’t mind.
1). Romanian and German representatives formally agreed to accept Transylvania and Banat’s incorporation into the Kingdom of Romania. “Looting” is what Austria-Hungary did with Bukovina in 1775, Czarist Russia with Bessarabia in 1812 and Soviet Russia with Bukovina, Bessarabia and Herta in 1940.
2). For the atrocities committed around WWII, see Altenburg-Roggeri und Roggeri- Hencke Commission’s Reports. I trust that German and Italian work would be believable enough.
3). Ever heard about “Fraterna Unio”? Tip: no political or social rights whatsoever for certain people belonging to a certain confession. Guess for how many hundreds of years?
4). Ceausescu destroyed much more Romanian buildings than Hungarian ones. Case in point: Bucharest which became the second Pyongyang. The Communist leaders imprisoned and persecuted much more Romanians than Hungarians. Case in point: Southern and Eastern Romania which got the most part of the collectivization and forced industrialization process.
4). Last time when Romania was genuinely pro-Russian Tsar Peter was still in power. The US currently behaving like a shark circling its prey doesn’t make Russia look like a cute baby seal. Sharp teeth are breaking through its gums.
3). Ever heard about “Fraterna Unio”? Tip: no political or social rights whatsoever for certain people belonging to a certain confession. Guess for how many hundreds of years?
This is how victim narratives get written. Cherrypicking. “Belonging to a certain confession” to imply the lack of rights was caused by what the religion was [Orthodox, for the benefit of outsiders].
Fraterna Unio was a military mutual-aid pact between four RULERS,the nobility. In mid-15th century. Tip: ever heard that in those days ONLY nobility had political rights? everywhere and anywhere? serfs and peasants did not?
Of course some of the opponents the mutual aid was needed against was those peasants, who kept revolting against high taxes. So from that point of views we must have sympathy for them. But unless you want to suggest they REVOLTED because they were Orthodox, you can’t really claim they were beaten down because of being Orthodox. In fact peasants who were Catholic were treated the same.
the murderer was arrested BECAUSE he’s black
the thieving oligarch was charged BECAUSE he’s a dissident
the speeding driver was stopped BECAUSE he’s Muslim
the peasants had no political rights BECAUSE they were Orthodox.
The victim card.
It’s a marked card. Stop playing it.
@Kat Kan “The victim card.
It’s a marked card. Stop playing it.”
I would if someone ever apologized for that. Did I miss perchance the moment when the three favored Transylvanian nations apologized to the rest for treating them like animals for almost 400 years? I think not. And, whereas one could have found among Catholics and Protestants noblemen and peasants alike, incidentally no nobleman was to be found among Orthodox people. Nor any bootwearer. You do the maths.
Give me your email address and I’ll send you a time machine., You can then go back 600 years and demand an apology.
There is no collective guilt and there is no inheritable guilt. What part of that are you having difficulties with?
Even if there were, you’d have to demonstrate the inheritance. Can you? can you personally trace your own ancestors back to that time? by name and location? how sure are you that you actually had any ancestors involved? how would you feel if it turned out your actual ancestor was on the OTHER side then came down in the world and his sons or grandsons ended up living and assimilating with the “victim” side?
This big detour into other lands started as an effort to understand how both sides, or rather all sides, in Ukraine are rebuilding their identities right now. So let’s go back to Ukraine, where, for the first time in history, the world can see both a war and an enormous realignment of national identity IN REAL TIME.
Watch how people remember and grieve things that did not happen. Look at 5th generation Lvov residents crying about Holodomor…. when Lvov was in Poland at the time and there was no famine there [false memory, assimilation by adopting someone else’s history]. Watch them define it as deliberate genocide against them, when at least the same number of Russians died in the same famine.[martyrdom to unite against designated enemy] . Watch them adore Bandera for the same reason, ignoring how many he killed who at that time were of the identity now being realigned (thereby denied). .
So somewhere along the line a victim story developed, which was passed on to you as fact; fact relevant to you whose ancestors may not have been there at all. It’s an assimilation, and again martyrdom to unite against designated enemy….who no longer exists.
What you actually expect an apology for is history, the fact that medieval Europe throughout saw society as divided into classes, and peasants were at the bottom of the heap. In other combinations, peasants of other faiths were denied political rights. It was nothing to do with religion, everything to do with being a peasant at a time in history when peasants had no rights.
Go take that time machine and demand an apology. You won’t get one 2015, there’s nobody here authorised to speak for the way things were. Ask for apologies, while you’re at it, for the last thunderstorm you got soaked in.
Uncle Bob said in his comment:
“A very many Americans know little about Eastern European peoples, history, and cultures. I am not one of them.”
So it would seem that he considers himself informed. And he certainly does seem to have a lot of information, albeit very obviously one-sided. If he “feels and wants to be impartial”, he should definitely check the other’s side view, as there is information published in English about it.
And since I am sorry that his impartiality should be questioned just because one side has been very busy translating in English it’s own point of view, and the other side has not been that busy, I will undertake (with the help of my friends) to fill the knowledge gap, for the benefit of future impartial readers.
It seems you got everything wrong. I do not ask an apology for myself (I might even have Hungarian ancestry as my surname would indicate it). What I would like to see is how nations and people are capable of admitting their own mistakes, thus putting every grievance aside and finally making peace. Reconciliation is what I seek, not apologies. Do you think it would be ever possible or we’ll keep giving good reasons to those who claim that the Balkans are reaching Vienna?
I wonder whether you are aware that you went over the top rehashing the tired talking points of the Hungarian propaganda. It is that propaganda that uses half truths and plain untruths. The claims that the Magyars were ever in majority in the areas in dispute are not supported by documents. At all times Romanians represented the majority of Transylvania’s population and the invading Magyars a minority, because Romanians were the natives of the land. Absolute majority in the counties, relative majority in the Saxon areas, in minority only in the Szekler Land. The Banat was NOT part of Transylvania, but belonged to Hungary proper (Transylvania, btw, was an autonomous Principality until its forcible incorporation in Hungary first in 1848 and then in 1867, when the Hungarian government initiated an intense chauvinistic campaign of imposing the Hungarian language on Romanians and all non-Magyar populations). Anyhow even in the so-called Partium (Arad, Bihor) Romanian population was in majority, absolute in some parts, relative in others.
The theories that Romanians “invaded” Transylvania fleeing the Ottomans is complete and arrant non-sense. The reverse was true at all times (the Romanians State of Valachia and Moldova have been founded by the Orthodox Romanians fleeing the Catholic persecution to start with). We can continue indefinitely (evoking for example the massacres of Romanians by the Hungarian fascists – if there was any retaliation from the Romanians it was in relation to these), but I think it better to stop muddying the waters.
@ Uncle Bob
I would like to quote Kat Kan here, because it seemed to me a very sensible thing what she said:
“What is so great about being a victim that you continue to insist on it ? So, the whole world owes you for this forever ? It did not happen to YOU” [especially as you say you are an American].
“There is no collective guilt and no inheritable guilt”. [hear, hear!]
“If you persist in bashing today’s people for ancient wrongs YOU are victimizing THEM.”
“There will never be peace in the world while you keep doing this. It’s that attitude that leads to things like GAZA.”
“in the Austro-Hungarian Empire it was possible to join any religion except orthodoxy”
Nonsense. There were and are Orthodox churches even in Budapest.
You are just quoting a sentence from a blog which gives a few recent (and, strangely. Ukrainian) pamphlets as sources.
What is so great about being a victim that you’d continue to insist on it, hundreds of years later? So, the whole world owes you for this forever??? It did not happen to YOU and it was not done by people alive today. There is no collective guilt and no inheritable guilt. If you persist in bashing today’s people for ancient wrongs, YOU are victimising THEM. There will never be peace in the world while you keep doing this.
It’s that attitude that leads to things like GAZA.
It’s a site belonging to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. And those who want to actually read the article will see that it shows the struggle of the Russian and Romanian Orthodox to remain Orthodox during the time of the Catholic Austro-Hungarian Empire. And how they were persecuted by the Catholic Hungarian authorities.
They are quoting both Ukrainian and Russian sources (you forgot to mention the Russian ones), because the Rusyns/Ruthenians are in Ukraine today.
Flor, do you read only MSM?
Do you watch only Fox and CNN?
New York Times?
or ONLY Sputnik?
only RT and Novorossiya TV?
only Colonel Cassad in original Russian?
Do you believe either group of those tells ONLY lies? Do you believe the other tells NOTHING BUT TRUTH?
or do you just believe there is only one side to any story?
Every dispute has at least two sides — if they agreed, there would not be a dispute. Then there are extra “sides” from the observers. Then more from people (in this context known as historians) who try to examine all the available narratives. If the “sides” refuse outright to look at these, their views will ossify to form a base for attacking the other, perpetuating the problem for centuries.
We have a huge resource here, people who have learned differing narratives for processes that deeply altered the shape of our shared world. And in our shared search for peace, we are trying to compare notes — see where we all went wrong in the past, to avoid repeating it.
And we are doing it in the context of Ukraine, the first time in history that outsiders have a clear view, in full detail, of all the processes the participants use to formulate their versions. This is not the time to bring up known one-sided sources.
“The victim card.
It’s a marked card. Stop playing it.”
I would if someone ever apologized for that. I’m feeling magnanimous enough as to not ask for reparations like others did. Did I miss perchance the moment when the three favored Transylvanian nations apologized to the rest for treating them like animals for almost 400 of years? I think not. And, whereas among Catholics or Protestants one could have found noblemen and peasants alike, incidentally no nobleman was to be found among Orthodox people. Nor any bootwearer. You do the maths.
“Every dispute has at least two sides.” Exactly.
“This is not the time to bring up known one-sided sources”. Correct. That’s why I used a pro-Russian source, as I generally use pro-Western ones. I don’t know how known it is, and you seemed at first to think that it was just a blog using pamphlets.
“And in our shared search for peace, we are trying to compare notes – see where all went wrong in the past, to avoid repeating it.” I couldn’t agree more.
As for those who refuse to look at all the available narratives, I also think “that their views will ossify to form a base for attacking the other, perpetuating the problem for centuries”.
I believe Uncle Bob should take a good look at these quotes, since his Hungarian opinions are oddly one-sided, especially for an informed impartial American.
This is another aspect of what we are talking about all the time on this blog. Information and sources. Uncle Bob feels and wants to be impartial. But he can only work with the material he can find. Some languages would not be available to him (machine translations being painful at the best of times and mostly unintelligible from Hungarian). Most non-English or non-German sources he would not even be able to find out about without access to the language….. another benefit of a site like this with so many languages represented.
I recall the Third volume in Vernadsky’s multi-volume History of Russia about the Mongols being the most fascinating of the series. Now I’ll need to pull it from the shelf and review it in the spirit of your short essay. One thing is certain: If the old Khan had lived just two more years, the Mongols would have made it to the English Channel and ALL further World History would be totally different–Totally!
It’s nice. You have figured out that Genghis Khan was ‘Russian’. :)
It is Sanjay the Indian again. It is very nice that you brought up this kind of subject. In fact One must read History rather I would say one should try to find and learn History. Not by the MSM “History 101”. As long as the History is taught by PROPAGANDIST, the history would repeat itself to remind once again to “The Generation” and future Generations to “Find” and “Discover” the History of oneself and the Cosmos so that it should not get repeated.
So what do I mean by the above is. The Learning or Knowing of History means, at least for me is “The Discovery of TRUTH”. Again “TRUTH” is the key word here. Often times I hear from EXPERTS etc “Perhaps we would never know the TRUTH”. Then my question to them is then What we are talking about, the Lies,Propaganda, or demagogy?
Hence Historians have a great RESPONSIBILITY toward the generations and generations to come.
“that “Russian” is not (and never was!!) an ethnic category”
Not long ago a Jewish woman expressively told me that she “hated Putin.”
My answer was that Putin is a good president for Russia, and he is liked by Russian people. Nothing else matters. Plus, Putin is the first ethnic Russian head of state in over 300 years. After the German dynasty, Jews, Georgians, Armenians, and Ukrainians, to have a Russian leader is extremely important for the health, prosperity and, frankly, further existence of the nation.
“First of all,” this Jewish woman said. “There is no such thing as “ethnic Russians.” Russians don’t exist. It’s all Stalin propaganda. Second, Russia should never be allowed to be ruled by Russians. It’s very dangerous. It should never allowed to happened. It should be immediately stopped. ”
We Russians see the intent of the Satanic West to erase us from the history of mankind, from the map, and from existence itself.
The great tragedy of Ukraine is unfortunate, but it’s just a small episode in our long history. It has waken us up politically and economically. And for this we are very grateful.
I can only add that we Russians do exist. We have the highest birth rate in Europe. We have the biggest country in the world. We have the president who is a patriot of Russia. And our two biggest friends are the Russian Army and the Russian Navy.
“And our two biggest friends are the Russian Army and the Russian Navy.”
You forgot to add:
The Russian Strategic Rocket Forces.
The majority of Eurasia: India, China and Central Asia.
Probably a huge silent majority in the Latin America.
Wow, whoever that woman was that said to your face that Russians don’t exist and that Russians don’t have right to rule themselves (it should someone from some other ethnicity or nationality), …. she sounds like a complete racist A-hole. I hope she had a crappy and bitter life and is now serving her true master in the hot and sulfurous place. Coming from her the hypocrisy is mind-blowing.
This world has all kinds of putrid repulsive individuals along with those that are good and just-minded.
This must be the mother of all historical revisionisms. And when it will meet the father of them, which is being pushed by the other side, their offspring will be the Tower of Babel.
your claim that it isn’t possible to find a 5000 years old village is wrong!Damascus is the oldest inhabited( continuously)town on earth,7000 years.And the Dna of its inhabitants wouldn’t prove much I guess since there are no secluded settlement on earth.
@ history of the people living in modern Ukraine and, even more so, modern Russia is very complex
KISS (Keep it strait and simple). Wikipedia for convenience:
“Tartary (Latin: Tartaria) or Great Tartary (Latin: Tartaria Magna) was a name used in the Middle Ages until the twentieth century to designate the great tract of northern and central Asia stretching from the Caspian Sea and the Ural Mountains to the Pacific Ocean after the Mongol-Turkic invasion inhabited mostly by Turkic peoples. It incorporated the current areas of Pontic-Caspian steppe, Volga-Urals, Caucasus, Siberia, Turkestan, Mongolia, and Manchuria….
Tartary was often divided into sections with prefixes denoting the name of the ruling power or the geographical location. Thus, western Siberia was Muscovite or Russian Tartary, Xinjiang and Mongolia were Chinese or Cathay Tartary, western Turkestan (later Russian Turkestan) was known as Independent Tartary, and Manchuria was East Tartary.
As the Russian Empire expanded eastward and more of Tartary became known to Europeans, the term fell into disuse. European areas north of the Black Sea inhabited by Turkic peoples were known as Little Tartary.
The “Komul Desert of the Tartary” was mentioned by Immanuel Kant in his “Observations on the Feeling of the Beautiful and Sublime”, as a “great far-reaching solitude”.
Tartaria is a term like Scythia or Sarmatia in Antiquity, which also concealed under its generality and vagueness (although with a historically precise origin) a vast number of tribes, peoples, ethnies, gentes, you name it, which in turn dominated all or part of the others (and that since the time of great social divide into sedentary and nomad lifestyles), in a system called by some historians of a Marxist orientation “the tributary social order”, based on perception of tributes and services by a class of nomad warriors from a sedentary peasant population. It is perfectly known that the subjected populations were recruited in the armies of the conquerors and members of the subjects ruling classes acted as officials of the conquerors (tribute perceptors, “liaison officers”, etc) . The processes of interaction between the various actors is very complicated (at the micro-social level) and necessitates specialized knowledge (historical, linguistical, sociological, ethnographical, theological) if we want to have a clear (as much as it is possible) picture and avoid the “mythologizing” which lays at the base of the modern construction of national identities.
But who were those populations subjected by the nomads, which today belong to the population group known as Slavs? They were undoubtedly indo-europeans, forming that vast population group known as Thracians (“the largest people in the world after the Indians”, as Herodotus put it) who did really expand from the Carpatho-Balkano-Danubian regions towards the East and Nord, regions where they interfered with the nomadic tribes mostly of Turano-Altaic origin and with the Ugro-Finnic populations (known as Aesti or Veneti in ancient sources). Among them were the Rusi (the Reds). Hypothetically, the term may design a category of warriors who wore a red coat (like the Sarmatian Roxolani, the Red Alans). They may have formed their own societies in the “wilderness”, “at the margins” of the societies they were fleeing. A sort of Cossacks.
On the other hand, the Metropolitans of All Russia were dependent of and staunchly faithful to Constantinople until the fall into the Uniate heresy of Isidore following the Council of Florence, rejected by the Russians. Only since 1441 the Metropolitan of All Russia was elected in Russia, the Russian Church acquiring out of necessity a de facto autonomous status which she retained after the fall of Constantinople in 1453. The proclamation of the Patriarchate in 1589 was not (at least imho) an act of further independence, but an attempt to normalization of the troubled relations with Constantinople.
I do claim credit for the above rants. Pushed the button to quickly.
Take the opportunity to add to the last sentence: …as were the reforms of the much maligned Patriarch Nikon”.
Saker ! What a fabulous article. Very interesting.
A couple of additional research vectors for you.
1) Russians are most definitely admixed with Finno-Ugrians. They could hardly help it given their closel proximity on all sides (Estonians, Finns, Karelians, Udmurts, etc.). The founder of the modern Russian state, Rurik, was a Finn, as seen by his haplogroup “N” Y-chromosome.
2) The legacy linking Tatars and Russians lives on to this day in the name Cossack and Kazakh, which are really the very same word (just spelled different ways, rather like Jesus and Joshua) and mean “free man”. Its hardly a coincidence that all the inhabitants of the former Cuman Empire called themselves “Kazaks”.
3) The population of the Mongol-Tatars was probably microscopic compared to the Slavic Russian host population they joined. If you look at pre-modern population statistics from the 1800’s, the various Tatar/Turkic/Mongol populations of the Russian Empire were extremely tiny compared to the Russians. The largest legacy of them in Russia aside from the Almighty Don Cossack Host is the large number of Boyar families descended from them as you mention. In this way, they are very similar to what is seen in Hungary, where the underlying substratum of the peasant people was a mix of Croats, Germans, and Vlachs, but became the Hungarian nation under the influcence of the immigrant Hungarian nobility.
4) The Ukrainians are actually differentiated from the Russians by a lack of the Finnic genetic vector, and instead the presence of a Balkan genetic vector from the Dalmatians/Vlachs/Romanians. As late as the 1930’s, this could be seen in one direction by the Romanian speaking peasantry that still existed in significant numbers well east of the Dniestr and Bug Rivers and Odessa on the Ukrainian plain. Going back a couple hundred years earlier in the other direction before the full latinization of Romania under the influence of France and French culture propogated through Austria-Hungary it could also be seen by the intense Slavization of the Romanians back into the mists of historical records, including the use of Church Slavonic in the liturgy of the Romanian Orthodox Church and the very large number of Slavic words in Romanian. Although now lost in the mists of time, it would seem that the origins of the modern Romanian nation are from a mix of Rusyns and the “Shepherds of the Romans”.
5) The Ukrainian language is differentiated from standard Russian by its Polonization, even while the Poles are much closer to the Russians genetically, lacking as they do the Balkan vector. The Poles are differentiated from the Russians because the Poles were civilized and Christianized by the Germans while the Russians received the same by the Finnic Norsemen and the Greco-Romanian Empire.
Among Romanians a current name (especially in Transylvania) is Rusu, Russu, which means Russian. That may indicate a Rusyn population taking shelter in Transylvania from the invasion of the Hungarians, and mixing with the local Vlach population.
But recent (and not so recent, actually) studies strongly suggest that the Getian/Dacians/Thracians/Illyrians, who are the pre-Roman population of Dacia, Moesia, Pannonia, extending to the East up to Crimea, were in actual fact Slavs (which would confirm the “legends” of Slavic origins in the Danubian regions proposed by the Cronicle of Nestor). A tribe of Rusi is found in pre-Roman Dacia. The Latin – Slavic mixture which is the characteristic of the Romanian is therefore much older (adding more headaches for the historians and linguists who struggle with the “intricatissimo problema” of the origins of the Romanian language).
In fact, the progresses made in the fields of Archaeology, Linguistics in the last decades smashed many cherished historical poncifs.
Romanian is a Romance language. It is the closest living language to Latin.
The lexical similarity of Romanian with Italian has been estimated at 77%, followed by French at 75%, Sardinian 74%, Catalan 73%, Portuguese and Rhaeto-Romance 72%, Spanish 71%.
That’s what Wikipedia says, without explaining how they got it. Same list claims English has 24% lexical similarity with Russian, yet Russian is listed as zero similarity with a big list of languages, including zero with German which English is 60% similar to. Must be a different 60% than where it’s similar to Russian. So what kind of word list were they using? computer terms??
This sort of data is worthless.
It is a scholarly article, and it gives tens of serious references. It also explains “how they got it” right at the beginning:
“Eastern Romance languages, like the other branches of Romance languages, descend from Vulgar Latin, adopted in Dacia by a process of Romanization during early centuries A.D.”
In those early centuries, when the Romans conquered it, Dacia was situated geographically exactly where Romania is today.
I must say I am surprised at your constant interest in everything Romanian, especially at your denying everything they say about themselves. I thought you said you were a Hungarian.
but became the Hungarian nation under the influcence of the immigrant Hungarian nobility.
You make that sound like they arrived with passports, in gilded carriages, and moved into ready-made castles. :) Actually they were raiding warrior nomads who decided it was time to stop moving, and this near-empty land looks a good spot. They drove cattle (good for milk, meat and skin tents) but relied on gathering for their plant food needs. “Gathering” sometimes meant taking from settled agrarian populations. (Nearly all Hungarian words for crops and farm implements are Turkic or Slavic in origin).
Settling down meant a permanent food producing population, and being warriors with horses meant they were able to control them. Each tribe got its own territory, separated by rivers and hedgerows, so they’d not practice their old raiding habits on each other. Eventually they changed from elected leadership to inherited, and thus “nobility” was born.
Let’s be honest and cut through all the politically correct euphemisms.
All the hysterics about Russians being “Tatars” is just a thinly concealed variation of White supremacy.
Essentially, the Ukranians are attempting to assert their superiority over the Russians because the latter are “Asiatic” and hence inferior to the White European Ukrainians.
This type of coded racist appeal is reflective not only of Nazi thinking, but of the White Western world in general.
Western civilization has always defined itself against and superior to the “hordes” of the East–whether it be Tatars, Mongols, Turks, Persians, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Muslims, Arabs, etc.
See Edward Said’s book Orientalism for more insight on one of the defining ideologies of the racist West.
Westernism = Nazism in democratic drag
Please create a name when you are making such a cogent point.
Anonymous is a terrible moniker.
The point of empowering individuals to voice their opinion, post facts, are join a dialogue is ruined by the ubiquity of Anonymous being many instead of singular.
Combined with the fact it is default and their is no commenter’s review provision on the system as the bloodspot had, it might be used accidentally (as it did once by myself).
Other than the imbecilic code that requires the commenter to become a programmer to achieve formatting of paragraphs, the allowance of Anonymous as a generic posting name is a close second in self-destructive and worthless features of the new site. The rest of the website reality is splendid and generally excellent.
The two greatest weaknesses of this new website are incorporated in this magnificent threading on this topic, easily perceived. Thus,my complaint.
Brilliant comments with important links and information are buried in the sand of inept formatting forced on everyone who is not a professional and practiced software coder.
It is ludicrous that we are reading massive blocks of type and distracted by lack of formatting paragraphs.
People have the option to become coders, but obviously, it is not their role, and they eschew the opportunity to do something that is burdensome.
The result is confusion and snow-blinding effect of words upon words.
I say, get this function fixed, so when we input a paragraph, it appears automatically like in Disqus.
And lose Anonymous as a naming choice or default. It does not add anonymity. It adds confusion.
We all have anonymity.
Please review this wonderful topic of genetics, ethnicity and science and see how it is now a labyrinthian read for no good reason other than lack of automatic paragraph formatting.
Pathetic. Very good information trivialized instead of turned into a resource.
Meanwhile, stopgap, write the magic paragraph code into a notepad, 5 or 8 times, with spaces between. Copy paste the whole block and write your paragraphs into the spaces. Delete any leftover codes.
There are very few WYSIWYG addons for WordPress. One I tried broke everything. Another worked but …. even had font sizes and colours and other nice troll toys. The Disqus comment system is nice, but involves signing up to , and working through, a third-p[arty server, which is not the security level Saker needs. We’ll get there.
The claim that the Mongols were not sophisticated enough to conquer Eastern Europe, and that it was more of a Russian civil war, breaks down on first sight once you study the historical facts.Granted, it’s true that the Asian forces that conquered Russia had a large, possibly majority, element of non-Mongol, central-Asian origin. There was also a much smaller but crucial element consisting mainly of siege-engineers and administrators who originated chiefly from China. In this sense we could speak of an Asian instead of a Mongol invasion. It is, nevertheless, historically justified to speak of a Mongol invasion because there is a clear historical connection between the calamity that befell Russia and the events in Mongolia just a few decades earlier, where the tribes of Mongolia came to be united under the leadership of Genghis Khan. Besides creating many other repercussions across Asia, these developments led to two campaigns against Russia, and in both cases we see a coherent war effort carried out under identifiable Mongol leadership using Mongol core forces. The first campaign was more of a cavalry raid that culminated in the battle at river Kalka close to the Black Sea, lost by the Russians. This raid did not result in any permanent conquest. The second campaign, which did lead to permanent conquest and the “Mongol yoke”, occurred a few years later partly under the same leadership as the first one (a general whose name is variously given as “Subotai” or “Subedei” and who, for all we know, had already served under Genghis Khan). Within a just a few short years, this campaign resulted in destruction of a number of Russian cities including Kiev and a brief occupation of the Hungarian steppes. It also included forays into Poland and Austria.
There was simply not enough time for Russian players to be incorporated in these Mongolian, or Asian, if you will, war efforts in any significant way. The Russians were attacked and lost, and very badly at that. The same happened to the Hungarians and to the Polish/German forces that faced the Mongol-led forces on Polish soil. Much has been written about the superiority of forces consisting of disciplined steppe warriors fighting on horseback, led by experienced generals who stayed out of the fray of the fighting, supported by Chinese siege-engineers and other specialists and pressing natives into service as expandable foot soldiers whenever necessary. Nothing of that needs be repeated here. What is important is the deep cultural and socio-economical divide between the western and eastern ways of conducting war, further hindering any significant merger between the two sides early on.
Then, what happened in the aftermath of all of that is an entirely different story. The Mongol yoke was a complex affair which surely saw Russians rising in the ranks and competing against each other. In this sense it might be true that there was an element of a Russian civil war, and that the Mongols were unable to rule the Russians all by themselves, as opposed to conquering the Russians, which they did. But these two things should be always be kept separated.
Tamerlane-i wonder what he is thinking of now………got as far as Moscow,Turkey, Timur’s religious practices with their admixture of Turco-Mongolian shamanistic elements belonged to the Sufi tradition
“The same as Jenghiz Khan, Timur rose from a nomad ruler; however unlike Jenghiz Khan, he was the first one based his strength on the exploitation of settled populations and inherited a system of rule which could encompass both settled and nomad populations. Those who saw Timur’s army described it as a huge conglomeration of different peoples – nomad and settled, Muslims and Christians, Turks, Tajiks, Arabs, Georgians and Indians. Timur’s conquests were extraordinary not only for their extent and their success, but also for their ferocity and massacres. The war machine was composed of ‘tumen’, military units of a 10,000 in the conquered territories. It consisted of his family, loyal tribes particularly the Barlas and Jalayir tribes, recruited soldiers from nomadic population from as far as the Moghuls, Golden Horde and Anatolia, and finally Persian- speaking sedentarists.
Timur and his army were never at rest and neither age nor increasing infirmity could halt his growing ambitions. In 1391 Timur’s army fought and won in the great battle of Kanduzcha on June 18. Following his campaign in India, he acquired an elephant corps and took them back to Samarkand for building mosques and tombs. He led the attack and victory on the Ottoman army in the battle of Ankara on July 28 1402.
With great interest in trade, Timur had a grand plan to reactivate the Silk Road, the central land route, and make it the monopoly link between Europe and China. Monopolization was to be achieved by war: primarily, against the Golden Horde, the master of principal rival, the northern land route; secondarily, against the states of western Persia and the Moghuls to the east in order to place the Silk Road under unified control politically; and finally agaist India, Egypt and China.
jj … your last comment that referenced the fortruss article about canvas/right sector and murder of Nemtsov was semt to spam and deleted .. please repost.
ok thanks for message-wot, u sent me to spam?????
only joking…………..i am not charlie…best wishes and thanks moderators
intresting article that Serbian-USA, Maidan right sector connections re Nemtsov etc etc
“The Serbian trail, stretching from the terrorist attack in Kharkov to the murder of Boris Nemtsov, stands out from under the carpet too much to ignore it. NGO CANVAS, grown from the Serbian maidan organization “Otpor!”, is very heavily involved in Ukraine and now have seriously taken over Russia.”
FWIW, lately scientists determined that a proto indo european language from which all European languages evolved, originated in today’s Russian steppe some 3-4 thousand years ago.
Daily Mail few days ago had this article…about 4500 years ago these went to basically the germany area, but before there had been migrations to southern europe
here is one of the best propaganda pieces by Israel.. I do not bother reading anything when I realize after a few paragraphs that it is propaganda so I have not read that many and this is the first one I read entirely, So you get an idea of how to disarm someone first by saying we are against so and so the same as you are, so we propose this.. A proposal which basically means the very same thing except in cosmetics.. Which is what good propaganda must do. instead of attacking the read it sympathies with the view points but then comes back to the very same conclusions and the very same results. To get the best effects you should write down what is required and the results from each party on different pieces of paper and then in the end compare them to see the results.
I am surprised asiatimes would print something like this but I think it is because they did not realize what it was.
Netanyahu adds injury to insult By Alon Ben-Meir
Dr Alon Ben-Meir is a professor of international relations at the Center for Global Affairs at NYU. He teaches courses on international negotiation and Middle Eastern studies. He can be contacted at [email protected].
Interesting website with lots of ‘alternative’ history.
The best stuff isn’t translated yet and comes from the Russian site.
The head guy is a bigwig at Moscow State University, math and physics.
He even does art.
The Russian Alternate Chronology folks around Fomenko have uncovered MANY interesting hidden truths. I won’t go so far as to grant them to have everything right, but they are correct at pointing out many things that conventional chronology has wrong.
My favorite is the Ottoman/Christian Tower that was built integrally into the Parthenon that the archaeologists demolished in the 1860’s to “purify” the site, but there are many others.
I just spent the whole day watching the documentary series about Fomenko on rutube (not linking because it’s in French, if you want to watch it, search for “Nouvelle Chronologie” there). The last episode uploaded ends with: “And look, it is happening again, with Ukraine!” New history, new language, new religion … They’ve been doing this for 500 years!
Yes, especially the idea that tatars and russians are the same is the main point in Fomenko’s version of Russian history.
I would not bet that much of Fomenko’s history is correct – but I would agree that much of the standard history is simply wrong. The basic idea – to compare different parts of history to find similarities – is nice. If such identifications can be found – and he has found a lot of them – it is quite reasonable to explain this as different versions of the same real history, which are dated incorrectly and considered as different. But this, of course, does not tell us what has really happened.
And, by the way, Fomenko’s lectures in mathematics (differential geometry) have been excellent.
I found this to be of interest in the subject raised.
L’an mil neuf cens nonante neuf sept mois,
Du ciel viendra un grand Roy d’effrayeur:
Resusciter le grand Roy d’Angolmois*
Avant après Mars regner par bon heur. X 72
Translation into English:
In the year 1999 and seven months
From the sky will come the Great King of Terror,
Raising again the great king of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars (war) reigns at his pleasure. X.72
Edgar Cayce’s remark about Mongols was as follows:
“If there is not the acceptance in America of the closer brotherhood of man, the love of the neighbor as self, civilization must wend its way westward – and again must Mongolism, must a hated people be raised.”
You wrote “a lot of Russian families were founded by Tatars (including, by the way, my own).”
That is yet another thing you and I have in common. My family is descended from a Tatar Boyar family. :)
Odessa May 2 trial turns into farce as Russia continues ‘massacre’ propaganda
20.02.15 | Halya Coynash
The Kharhiv Human Rights Protection Group. Interesting. They seem to think the “Massacre” part of what happened in Odessa is Russian propaganda.
They are totally pushing the Kiev version of events, but seem concerned by delays in the court case related to earlier events in another street.
This is an excellent summary of the Kiev view. which they keep referring to with phrases like “the facts are “.
Contrary to myth, the expansion of the EU into the former communist world has not magically brought universal peace, love and prosperity. Croatia’s economy has actually gone backwards since it joined. Corruption still exists in large parts of the EU’s new south-eastern territories, and I am not sure that the rule of law could be said to have been properly established there. So the idea that the recruitment of Ukraine to the ‘West’ will magically turn that troubled nation into a sunny paradise of freedom, probity and wealth is perhaps a little idealistic, not to say mistaken.
Rusin and Rosyanin( Moscovy Principality) are two diffrent ethnicities. Those who we call Russians are really Rosyanie.
Look at BialoRus ( White Rus (Roos)). Letter S is pronuncied soft indicated by the accent mark above. The same was with Kievian Rus (Roos). They are real Rusos.
Rosyanie conquered vast territories outside they Moscovity Czardom and addapted those peoples names and customs like Anglos call themseives “Americans” after the people (Americans) they conquered and put into contrentration camps and call Indians.
That’s the way it goes. Misnomer after misnomer.
By the way. Can Rooswelt be of Roos( Rus) and Welt, German for world, meaning, Rusworld.
It’s not a bad article. Also, apparently Victoria Nuland loves Russia. Love to get her grubby hands on it, yes.
A gratifying article to read, from Saker.
I still contend that the ultimate issue of conflict between Ukrainians and Russians is about acceptable
types of rulership, government systems,—like North Korea and South Korea.
Ukrainians, it would seem, due to their experience as targets of slave trade, targets of one aspect
of that “northern Crusade” launched by the Roman Church against Orthodox Christians, and the fact
that they lost most of their aristocracy [nobles seemed to be that “necessary evil” for their ethnicgroup to thrive, as the Irish also lost their aristocracy and then fell into very bad times],—all that
produced the rise of the Cossack format which was a way for Ukrainians to organize themselves,
learn military skills, and defend themselves. The first actions of the Ukrainian Cossacks were to smash the slave trade centers and liberate slaves from the Ottoman Turkish-ruled areas. But this also has produced a kind of “Ukrainian soul” which abhors excessive servitude, slavery, serfdom, abject subservience to some “god king” type of ruler. Unfortunately, in Muscovite Russia, it seems that the system of “god king” absolute power developed starting with Ivan the Terrible and his cult of “oprychchyna” [and I say cult because I am really suspicious that this wicked man dabbled
in satanism, and that might explain the unique excesses of him and his equally psychopathic son
whom he later murdered].—But all that has nothing to do with racial/genetic background.
There is nothing wrong with being Finnish/Ugric, and genetics or race would have little to do
with what political systems arise. For instance, it can be said, looking at the events, that the Germans and Hitler copied the political and rulership system already established by Stalin in the
USSR, including the one party system, the secret police, the concentration camps and death camps, the rulership by murder and terror, the deadly purges. Being genetically Germanic conferred no immunity from copying the rulership by rage and terror. The main difference was that Stalin’s USSR sought to exterminate whole categories of people based [at least formally] on social and economic class into which they were born [there was a quasi-genetic component here, that
you were judged by what class you were born into],—while Hitler’s Germany sought to exterminate entire categories of people based on race.—What would it take to finally get Stalin [and Ivan the Terrible] out of the Russians’ system? Many of them still idolize these horrible rulers who actually did tremendous damage to Russia and set it back centuries so to speak. Crazy! Like I said,
this would be like the Cambodians/Khmers still idolizing Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. But then there is the dread that if such rulers and rulership are idolized, then such systems can be revived. The ultimate nightmare for any Ukrainian would be Russia rising as some North Korean style monstrosity, and that would not be good for the world at large either. If Ukraine is to be “de-nazified” then Russia must be in simultaneously “de-stalinized”. Then also, the example
of North Korea and South Korea shows that, even though Koreans of the north and Koreans of the south seem basically identical, and at one time lived in unity,—now they have incompatible political and economic systems, systems of rulership, and there is actually deadly hostility, and no possible organic genuine unity, unless either the north abandons its preferred system, or the south abandons its preferred system. Presumably, it is only the presence of USA military forces
in South Korea that prevents the very much otherwise stronger North Korean military from sweeping down and conquering South Korea militarily very fast at moment’s notice.
I first came across the notion of the “Ukres” and started laughing, honestly, never heard of this
thing before.—But this was in an article written in Russian, entitled “The Riddle of the Ancient
Ukres”, and as best as I could understand, it mentioned very interesting evidence that within the
modern Ukrainian population there is a very high percentage [40%] of them having the blood group marker characterizing ethnic groups like Arabs, Uzbeks, Tatars, Mongolians, which have historically led predominantly herdsmen-nomadic lifestyles,—in contract to the population
of Belorussians and Russians.
See Internet address: http://www.ap7.ru/paradoksi/zagadka_drevnih_ukrov_.html.
Now such genetic evidence, if true, raises the more intriguing question, that perhaps Ukrainians
do have a substantial genetic linkage to the herdsmen-nomadic nations of the steppe, dating
from very early times, like the Scythians and Sarmatans who inhabited much of the territory
now known as Ukraine. Scythians were the creators of the first so-called horse culture, long before Mongolians and Tatars even existed. The Scythians especially were very much involved with the ancient Greeks, in a basically peaceful and kind of symbiotic way. For instance, ancient Athenians hired them as the police in Athens, and the Scythians allowed Greek towns and settlements on their vast territories. Also interesting, in the Ukrainian language there are words
“skyt” meaning a Scythian, “skytaletz” meaning someone wandering from place to place, and “skytatysia” the verb meaning to be wandering from place to place. There is a clear even if superficial suggestion of similarity, as the “Skiths” or Scythians were indeed wanderers with herds of cattle and horses. Another name mentioned for the Scythians [in the Greek sources] was “Skoloti” which of course at least superficially suggests the Ukrainian verb “kolotyty”, to be mixing up, moving around, or “kolotnecha” meaning commotion. And by the way, the Old Persian name “stan” meaning country has the meaning of “status” in the sense of situation, in the Ukrainian language. These angles are certainly worth exploring. Could the population of Ukraine really go back that far, to a significant extent?
Jane did a good job of muddying the waters and diverting attention from the Saker’s commentary on the limited differences between Ukrainians and Russians. Funny how she set out to throw dust in eyes and how readily people responded as if carrying on their own private thread inside Saker’s own. The fact that is rarely discussed is Josef Pilsudski born in Lithuania studied in Kharkov and built his Polish Legions fighting for Galicia. He fought and later occupied much of what is today Ukraine.
Poland has an interest in Western Ukraine which it is exploiting using its EU and NATO contacts just as Paderweski used his contacts with Woodrow Wilson to Poland’s advantage at Versailles in 1919.
Ukraine is being dismantled by Poland and Lithuania and the Eastern provinces do not want to travel on that train
Fair enough. Tusk is certainly in the driver seat on that one.
But there are other players and wider dimensions to what’s happened: that’s why the thread developed the way it did.
This is essentially a ‘companion’ piece to The Saker’s ‘revanchism’ article.
Much more is at stake than Ukraine. That means apparent ‘tangents’ in an effort to get to the heart of the matter.
This site is potentially very useful – OffGuardian.org
Bingo. Exploiting Ruthenian/Rusyn nationalism is what’s happening.
This is why we shouldn’t get too hung up on our ethnicity when in the big picture we are all human. We are constantly set at killing one another by those who can profit from such outcomes and constant plotting. I not saying we shouldn’t take some pride in our respective cultures, just as long as we treat other cultures with as much respect as we expect ours to receive. This leads to a celebration of other peoples and cultures as the spice of humanity’s expression.Really the Russian and Ukrainian people have more similarities than most peoples but have a nasty history of being set against each other by elites, foreign and domestic. This is what the common person must realize, that it is the elites that always win and the people that always pay the full price, economically, psychologically and physically unless the people throw off those riding on their backs and declare that none shall have any more until the poorest among us have what they need for a life that can allow for their potential as a person to be achieved. This is what I believe everyone of us would want for our fellow human beings.
This might be worth a real translation just for the humour of it. Pure camp.
Христос, Будда, Тутанхамон, Чингисхан — великие украинцы! И только Пушкин — еврей…
Christ, Buddha, Tutankhamen, Genghis Khan – great Ukrainians! And only Pushkin – Jew…
Examples of this magnificent scholarship:
– The name of the main Egyptian temple of Het-ka-Ptah sounds very much in Ukrainian: “Hut-Ptah”. Judging by the images on the Egyptian pyramids (the burial of the wife of Pharaoh Khufu and his mother Hetepheres, burial of Tutankhamun, Egyptian Queen at that time were blonde with blue eyes. There is a considerable number of meets Trident, now is the small State Emblem of Ukraine.
The first Pharaoh of Egypt Menes from district MENA in Chernihiv, as the famous Nefertiti.
If you look at the portraits of the Egyptian kings, pharaohs and leaders of the Aryans-the Tocharians, we will see the typical (carnasie) Ukrainian entity, occurring daily in our cities and villages.
– The founders of Rome, Romulus and Remus came from, Romny, Sumy region.
What are the primary sources of all these quotes?
The webpage is all in the Russian language, no Ukrainian language choice at all!
It is something called “Russkaya Viesna”.
It is all probably fake, just to make Ukrainians and any claim about a “Ukrainian nationality” look ridiculous.
But go to the Wikipedia article about “Ukrainian nationalism” and assuming the article is not all false, you will find an official account of Ukrianian national identity, how and when it arose, under the official express term “Ukrainian”, tracing it back
to the 1600’s, at least as far back as the “Ukrainian Cossacks”.—And Taras Shevchenko, the poet most strongly identified as “Ukrainian”, did not just personally single-handedly invent
Ukrainian identity. He simply became a spokesman for the thoughts and feelings of millions
in the Ukrainian territory, which thoughts and feelings likely went back for centuries before.
The Cossack military democracy developed by Ukrainians in Ukraine was of course a system
of rulership totally incompatible with the tsarist monarchy centered in Moscow. Thus this rival
system and everything about the people associated with it were attacked and suppressed
by the Muscovite authorities. It was actually a gradual whittling down, from the 1600’s until in the early 1900’s everything Ukrainian in imperial Russia was basically marginalized and suppressed.
Of course,—because had the Ukrainians ever taken over Russia, there would have been no need or role for any tsar or any system of serfdom or the like. I think the rebellious movements
of Stenka Razin and/or Emelian Pugachev and their aspirations for a non-serfist, non-tsarist
society would be perhaps the closest to the preferences of the Ukrainians.
I also suspect that the Ukrainian symbol of the trident, dating back to the insignia on coins minted
during the reign of Great King and Kahan Volodymyr Sviatoslavych, from late 900’s AD, is an
ancient standard used by nations of the steppe, including the Mongolians, later on, and I have
also seen a variant of it associated with India.
By the way, maybe one avenue of solving the language controversies would be to adopt Belarussian and Ukrainian as well as Russian as all of them official languages throughout the Russian Federation and encourage learning of these languages throughout Russia, as the triad of eastern-Slavonic languages. Then all this tragic fighting about language will likely die down everywhere.—The saving of even a single person’s life would be worth it.
The Historical, Legal, and Political Contexts of the Russian Annexation of Crimea
by Lawrence A. Howard (March 2015)
A good sigh:
Could there be a grain of truth
Gandhi was a friend of Hitler.
@ mmiriww: of course Ghandi knew Hitler, both were british stooges – in their beginnings at least.
Two very important reads/links of today –
1. How the Malaysian Airlines MH17 Boeing Was Shot Down. Examination of the Wreckage:
2.Germany Has Had Enough With US Neocons: Berlin “Stunned” At US Desire For War In Ukraine:
That first one is bout MH17. It is another copy of the article we already have here
This is a crucial time. Not just for Denmark and France, but for all of Europe. This is your finest hour. Prove that you do not need survelliance, and that you are not afraid. Did you hear that the American government offered to help France and Denmark with solving the attacks? This is a clear call of the U.S. government wanting to extend their power. Make it clear you do not want nor need this. This is also an important time to remember that we are all one. Skin colour, religion, what does these things matter in the end? We are all fellow human beings, and the media, all over the world is trying to generate division between races. Do not let them, this will just give the governments more reason to restrict freedom and control you –
Anonymous – Message to Denmark – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzx6UF0OsYg&feature=youtu.be
My understanding of history is that the pyramid builders settled in the levant, after they were expelled from egypt, they were a troublesome lot and starting around 850bc various emporers [babylon/ninevah] moved them to the crimea/ukraine. So they were both out of the way and would expend their energy fighting the steppe tribes who were equally troublesome. After nebuchadnezza died and the fight for succesion took place a portion of them the, cimmerians, decided to leave and travelled through turkey where they joined up with the remnant hittites and led by brutus [grandson of aeneas] freed their old allies the trojans from their enslavement to the greeks. They then departed and travelled west to become the invading brythonic celts/galls in the west of europe around 550bc.
It was the other way around – the pyramid builders probably originated in the (then yet unflooded) Black Sea and left there for Egypt and other places during/after the flood.
Immediately prior to building the pyramids the workers were in the british isles, where the celtic languages were born, a development of an ancient western branch of an indoeuropean language akin to sanskrit, probably introduced by really ancient seafarers, imposed upon which was a basque grammar, probably by the native women. Where these ancient seamen came from, either out of the rhine when that flowed into the ocean to the east of scotland, or out of the arctic, I remain curious, but they occupied the british isles from the north down. The leaders of the pyramid builders were the remnant survivors of the cretans after santorini destroyed their society. They also spoke a celtic tongue.
The goidelic celts [scots/irish] are descended in part from the ‘royal’ armana refugees and their retinues, [Ahkenatun and Tutahnkamuns relatives] some of whom left under their own steam, some accompanied by the extensive ‘clan’ of achillies who when he could not get cassandra decided to get a princess elsewhere. These were the first celts in the west to wear iron armour.
PROOF that there’s a lot of hope for Ukraine
UKRAINE soldiers bring humanitarian aid for ILOVAISK
Recall NAF policy was to let conscripts and regulars out, if they downed weapons. Units (mostly Aidar) that tried to break out armed were mowed down.
Donetsk, March 7 – DAO. Ukrainian ex-soldiers of the security forces, which escaped from an environment in Ilovaiskaya in August last year, gathered for the residents of this city of 3.5 tonnes of humanitarian aid. This agency reported Deputy DPR Recovery Control Center Larisa Goncharuk.
“These are people who were surrounded out there, and who had to then beg the residents for food. Now they, in gratitude, collected 3.5 tons of food and clothing for the victims of war in Ilovaysk. With some difficulty the former security officials agreed with the current ones at the roadblocks to get their car passed “, – said Goncharuk.
According to her, the veterans are going to continue to send aid to the city.
In the period from late August to early September grouping Ukrainian military was surrounded at Ilovaisk. DPR later called this operation the Ilovaisk cauldron. During this, the Ukrainian side suffered heavy losses as killed and wounded, and as prisoners.
Hate breeds hate; decency breeds decency.
Oldest settlement names around the Black Sea are wait for it Gaelic. Dark haired tattooed dudes like the Picts once inhabited much of Europe and Asia.
Somewhere in Ukraine, Russia or Kazakistan a culture developed that grew and ate a lot of grain instead of meat. Fair skin was an advantage for this group in this latitude with this diet for getting vitamin D. Vit D essential for healthy babies. Blondes might not only have more fun but deliver more viable offspring in northern latitudes. I believe that the grain farmers came from Iran or Turkey through Iran. Iran and Ukraine both have iron ore deposits that are rich, easily accessible and easy to convert to iron. It is probably not a coincidence that Iran had Iron and that Alan tribes still living by the Caspian say that they speak Iron. Erin and Alan are popular names in Ire land. The convergence of grain farming, horse riding herders with dogs, iron and the wheel. Add a compound bow and you have a Steppe warrior. Indo-European language spread to Ireland and to the Tamrin Basin in China and much of India.
Out on the steppes people mixed in multiple swirls. There were light skinned people living in the Yellow River and Tamrin Basin in China. People mixed. The Chinese called them Wei and Dinglings. Dingling means someone from Ding. But Ding or Ting is not a place is is rather a large cooking pot that looks very much like a witches cauldron with legs so you can build a fire underneath. You could cook your dumplings in your ding.
Ding can also mean “Power” as in rank or political power. It is a popular surname in parts of China.
In the present we have Uyghur people (Pronounced Weiger) living in western China.
The Norse-German myths include Ynglings and Scyflings (Scythians) ancesters and Odin sitting somewhere by the Don River guarding Europe from the Asians. People mixed and swirled on the Steppes and pushed into Europe in the Age of Migrations. Eric the Red Haired German speaking dude found his way to Greenland and North America.
Blonde haired (KCumans) (Huns)came from the East speaking Altaic (Turkish) languages and settled in what is now Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria Hungary and Poland.
@ gord: you’re mixing way too many different sources including legends and rumors. Makes pretty much zero sense.
When we talk about pyramid builders, there are theories that their origin was where we have the black sea today and that they went under when the Bosporus broke open and the black sea got created by flooding from the Mediterranean sea.
None of those folks mentioned was in any way racially/nationally pure, they were all mixtures of several groups. sometimes wildly intermixed all over, sometimes divided by social classes etc.
I can be sure of one thing though: in most places, the majority of the people have the genes of original dwellers. As anywhere else, you will have the majority of genes coming from old peoples like Avars, Illyrians, Celts and so on. Irish are for example genetically very close to southern Slavs, while Brits have connections to Greece (Crete).
I would never suggest to know full story. Just posted as the info answered some questions for me. Probably everyone with five fingers and two ears are related in some way.
There are a lot of red heads, blonds, blue, green grey eyes in my family. Brown eyes and darker hair too. So of course everyone asks why. Where does this come from?
As far back as I can trace my ancestors are Angles, Saxons and Celtic. When I watch videos from the Ukraine conflict I see faces on both sides that could be my own children or grandchildren. This causes me pain.
With regard to previous post. If a language survives place names can endure for many thousands. Place names can even survive in other languages. There are Native American people in Mexico that have legends of ancestral As (Asia). Incidentally they are pyramid builders too!
Back to the blue eyes. Some scientist claim it is a very recent genetic change and probably all blue eyed people are relatively closely related. Although rare there are now blue eyes on all continents and many ethnic groups.
Blue eyes. hypothesis place of origin and spread.
On genetics, Kat Kan has said it all. I will add that both the Anatolian hypothesis and the Kurgan hypothesis can both be true as the Anatolian dispersal was 8000 years ago and the Kurgan dispersal was 6000 years ago and counting. Hittite, the Anatolian IE, has no horse and wagon words. Shepherds aware of grain farming could have walked to the Steppes. The horse was domesticated in Khavlisnk in Saratov (only once for stallions, 27 other groups of mares contribute to modern horse genetics). The first sheep with long hair (wool) is also found at Khavlinsk. Horse riding nomads with felt boots and yurts were invented in Russia. They were not Arayans but they did speak PIE. They may or may not have reinvented the wheel. A branch in the Southern Urals did invent the spoked wheel. (Now here be Aliens). This group had a life style which some describe as Vedic or Aryan although they hadn’t yet reached Iran.
Saker scoffed at Ukrainians for claiming descent from space aliens who mated with Slav women 16,000 years ago to create the Aryans. S/he doesn’t know much about modern Russia. This form of Nazism is huge in Russia amongst the moderately educated. The late N V Levashov preached a particular “Russians are the true Aryans” version as a new religion which is very popular. Much more so than in Ukraine. It’s rabid anti semitism is a common theme across all Eastern Europe.
Saker scoffed at Ukrainians for claiming descent from space aliens who mated with Slav women 16,000 years ago to create the Aryans.
What this means is:
* Aryans are the first real original people, founders of all humanity and purest of pure clean bloodline, which is what makes them superior
* They are actually halfbreeds with extra-terrestrial genetics, which by definition makes them NONhuman
* And they cannot be the original peoples of Earth. because they were preceded by SLAVS although Slavs are inferior late-comer invaders
Believing two or three self-cancelling opposites at the same time must be quite painful cognitive dissonance; the time travel aspect whereby something more recent is the foundation of something older is a quite novel redirection of the flow of time.
There is also insufficient explanation for how they did so many “firsts” in so many places, but the only remaining sign of them is the few of them in present-day Ukraine.; apparently none ever got left behind at the scene of all those inventions and pyramid buildings.
Levashov is a crazy stooge and his theories are very easy to disprove, utter nonsense.
Aryans are an indian tribe with typical indian look, that stupidity was invented by Blavatsky and co. back then when Theosophy became the new vogue.
There are no “Aryans” in the white race at all. The continuous misuse of that term is just awful.
The wheel was probably invented and reinvented hundreds of times throughout history, I see no single origin for such things.
I believe there is always a part of truth in what they say. But the problem is if it is blended with lies and false propaganda. I knew a Ukrainian when we were trying to learn english with native speakers from http://preply.com/en/skype/english-native-speakers and he believes political motives just use events in order to gain sympathy or support.
Well, Tatars were not slavs in that the Tatars spoke the Tatar language or a related language. And Tatar is a Turkic language, not an Indo-European one like Russian is.
Now perhaps there were slavs who were misnamed Tatars, but I highly doubt that because they would not have trouble recognizing other slavs as being at least slavic and not Turkic. The Tatar chiefs had non-slavic names too IIRC. More likely, there were non-Tatar Turkic people who were confused with Tatars.
What we know about history is like a mite on a blue whale compared to we do not know. People wandered following game and herds. Armies marched. Mercenaries hired out and sometimes took over. Slaves were taken and transported. Brides were exchanged. Nations conquered and languages lost. Cultures changed. Climate changed. Whole peoples migrated many hundreds of miles.
“Pure” Ukrainians are not to found any more than pure Germans, French, Italians or any other national or tribal classification.
Is there any grain of truth in it? Is there any meat there?
Ukraine was not formed on a remote island, and thus any “blood purity” is preposterous. In particular, “Kossack” is actually a Tatar word, and so are other words used by Kossacks, like “ataman/otaman”. Kossack dress and hair style were basically Turkish.
Ukraine meant “Bordeland”, and what border land was it? It was a borderland of Grand Duchy of Lithuania with Tatar Khanates, primarily with the Khanate of Crimea (someone mentioned that Southern It does not help that it is hard to characterize markers of “pure Slavic blood”, the initial ethnogenesis of Slavic people had to involve a fusion of different elements, the language having most connections to Baltic, but also Iranian (Sarmatians) and Gothic. Even before the coming of Mongols, the Slavic lands of what is now Ukraine were in contact with various steppe nations that were assimilated by Tatars.
The Tartar-Mongol Yoke was invented by Romanov historians to describe the previous dynasts whom the Romanov’s usurped European Russia from as a wicked foreign (asiatic – ‘Mongol’) group, which, thanks to the Romanov’s Russia was saved from.
The map at the top of this article is from the 1760s or 1770s. If you look at the parts of Russia which aren’t in ‘the Grande Tartarie’ you see how much the Romanov’s actually ruled.
Fomenko provides well enough evidence to state that the Tartars/Russians are indistinguishable.
I would add that your argument about differences between the Veliky Russia (aka Golden Horde) and Malorossiya (Blue Horde) are almost irrelevant with the exception of the area of the Uniate Russians (neo-nazi tools of international jewry) in Volynia/Galicia. The old Novgorod is twofold both the City of Yaroslavl north of Moscow, and the region about it including Uglich, Vladimir, etc.
The battle you show photos for in reality ‘Kulikovo’ took place upon the location of modern Moscow. The ‘Mongol’ empire was the ‘Great’ empire. Greek for great: Mugulion, mughal/mongol was terms for this vast empire.
Hear is the truth.
So called “Tatar-Mongol Yoke” is a hoax invented by three German historians in 19th century. In reality there existed the Slavic empire called Great Tartarie. The citizens of the G.Tartarie were called “tartars”. Also the soldiers of Golden Orda , the military troops of G.Tartarie, were colloquially called “tartars” in other parts of the world; they were also called “cossacks”. So, “tartar” is equal to “cossack”, equal to “bogatir”, equal to “vityaz”, equal to “druzhinnik”.
All tartars are Slavs with fair hair and blue eyes, they spoke Russian, all documents were written in Russian. There were no Mongols or mongoloids. So called “ukrainians” have never existed, they were invented in the beginning of the 20th century by Austrian-Hungarians. So called “ukrainian language” is in fact the Southern dialect or Malorossian dialect of Russian language; it is easily understandable by a Russian person, who knows Great Russian dialect (also called Russian language) without any problem.
Modern names of ethnoses, such as “Tatars”, “Mongols”, “Kazahs”were invented in 20th century : Tatars from Tartars, Mongols from mogol = “great” in the country name Mogol Tartarie; Kazah from cossack = warrior. The people, collected into those newly created above mentioned ethnoses, are of different national origins and even races. They are not Slavs.
Russian people does not have any genetic marks of mongoloid race in their genotype.
Case with the hoax “Tatar-Mongol Yoke” is closed.
“Russians were Tatars”
What a nonsense
Genghis Khan subjugated the Tatars and his grandson Batu Khan attacked Rus
This book debunks this nonsense:
In any way a sensible handling of the hot potato, blessed are you, Sake-
To recognize us as children of the Earth, is ther only way to be worth to survive.
And your (our) sensibility is the key, beyond resapect and wisdom.
Blessed is this week’ try
Great and insightful, and to the consternation of the Germans…after the Tartar/Mongols marched through the Reich to Berlin and cohabitated with Germankind for fifty years….very few of them are left without the taint of Tartar/Mongol genetic markers.
Before reading this, I was of poorly informed opinion (having read one single book of contemporary Tatar historian), that word Tatar was in 12th century applied to one of Mongol tribes. Mongols mixed with Turkish speaking Kipchaks and Bulgars and that was supposed to be ethnic basis of Golden Horde empire, later turning into Kazan Khanate. So, basically Turkish speaking civilization. That historian of course did not emphasise Slav influences…However, strong relations and influence with neighboring Russians was acknowledged.
Still, Saker, when you write that Russian is not ethnic category (but if I understand you correctly- it is political-cultural, in meaning of common Russian nation) would Russian Slavs today agree with that? Or would they insist only they are “real Russians”?
Anyway, while history is interesting, it often used as a kind of weapon to prove entitlement to certain territory in meaning “who was here first”.
be so kind and refer to our common friends about Fomenko-Nosovsky https://ast.ru/book/kak-bylo-na-samom-dele-sloven-i-rus-860511/ , too.
The origin of western “civilization” – aka Roman – comes from Bronze Age Anatolia & Black Sea, which originated mainly from Russia (Caucasus) & Persia and to a lesser extent Indus Valley.
There were people in the west (Europe) Celts – Nordics etc… but they were in fact barbarians / sod house dwellers with little real civilization.
So I find all this amusing.
The Romans had to teach them how to make things and use of money to grow economies.
And when Rome collapsed after 535 AD the “west” had 500 years of demise called the Dark Ages.
Then it was technology from the Islamic world that got Europe into a new era post 1400 AD (eg mechanical devices and a new number system).
While in the past few centuries the west may have advanced more than the east these things go in cycles and we can certainly say in the past 2 yrs (if not the past 50) the west is in social and economic decline.
The difference in the peoples can be seen when turning the head, something one can not see in a picture, confused yet? Wait till it hits the streets.