First, I want to point you to an excellent analysis by Bernhard at Moon of Alabama entitled “U.S. Military Intelligence Official Refutes ‘Russian Atrocities’ Claims“.
So we can now “officially consider” the Bucha false flag as an “official flop” :-)
Next, I want to point you to Andrei Martyanov‘s commentary on what happened to the missile cruiser Moskva he simply titled “About RKR Moskva“.
Please read both of these articles as I won’t report it here and I will assume that you have read them.
Here I will just add what Pentagon spokesman John Kirby officially declared about this incident:
“We know she suffered an explosion,” Kirby said in an interview on MSNBC. “It looks like — from the images that we have been able to look at — it looks like it was a pretty sizable explosion, too. We don’t know what caused that explosion.”
In an interview on CNN, Kirby said the explosion was “sizable enough.” According to him, US officials “picked up indications that other naval vessels around her tried to come to her assistance.” (emphasis added)
“Eventually, that wasn’t apparently needed, so she’s making her own way now across the Black Sea, and we’ll continue to try to monitor this as best we can. Certainly, it could have been damage from some external force, like a missile or an attack of some kind, a torpedo or something like that. But it could also be something that happens inside the skin of the ship — an engineering fire, a fuel fire. You just don’t know,” Kirby said.
It is a truly a very sad time when top US officials lie LESS than the “free and democratic” press!
Okay, I am not a naval person at all (being born in landlocked Switzerland did not help!) but I can make a few semi-educated guesses:
- The Ukronazis claim that they sunk the Moskva with two Neptune missiles. Wikipedia gives us two important technical details about this missile: its warhead is 150kg and its speed is subsonic which brings this specialized article to add “This missile travels at subsonic speed. It is estimated that due to its subsonic speed that anti-ship missile can be intercepted rather easily, especially by advanced defense system“. The Moskva displaces 12,490 tons, so I will assume that every person reading this will understand that 2x150kgb subsonic warheads are not enough to sink such a ship. Thus the “sunk by Neptunes” is highly unlikely.
- The electromagnetic space over the Ukrainian coast and the Black Sea is chock-full with signals from all the parties to the conflict. The launch of two Neptune ASM would have been instantly detected not only by the Russians (including the very powerful radars on the Moskva) but also by the USA/NATO yet Kirby said “We don’t know what caused that explosion”, did he not? Yes, he could be lying, but why bother when the morale-boosting lie would be to claim that it was a Ukrainian ASM hit? It seems that, like with Bucha, the US side is NOT endorsing the Ukronazi lies. I wonder why…
- Why was the Moskva evacuated? Simple, it was literally full of highly explosive munitions and fuel, so the crew was evacuated and the ship either towed back to Sevastopol or it had a skeleton crew which drove it back to port on its own power (I have heard both versions but Kirbys’ “she’s making her own way now” seems to point to the latter version ).
- The ship was clearly very seriously damaged which, according to Russian ex-navy posters on Telegram is probably due to two crucial factors: the ship is very old and it did not get a modern fire suppression system due to budgetary constrains and, possibly, mismanagement and fraud.
- Ships do burn, explode and sink. Anybody thinking that this is the result of Russian incompetence, vodka or poor design better read this first: “Navy ship destroyed by fire to be dismantled at Port of Brownsville“.
- Still, this is yet another PR disaster because the timing could not have been worse: not only is the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet unable to participate to the SMO, the Ukies now have a silly, but much repeated and morale-boosting fairy tale to spin, and it was picked up by most of the Western press (what else is new?). Yes, I know, the Ukies always lie, even about sinking Russian ships, but the braindead folks in Zone A have had an entire life long exposure to constant lies from their own “press” and they STILL read/watch it. Apparently they don’t mind being lied to.
- It is interesting that Kirby mentioned “torpedoes” since the (already non-existing) Ukie Navy does not have subs or surface ships to fire torpedoes. Make of it what you want. He did not mention or say Ukie mine by name, but just said “something like that”. We might want to keep that tidbit of info somewhere in the back of our minds.
- One more thing: the Moskva had very good, if rather old, air defenses. They were more than enough to deal with a couple of Ukrainian subsonic missiles, but we don’t know what the Ukies or the Romanians might have deployed on their coast. An air-launched missile is, in theory, also an option, but when we look at the kind of anti-shipping missiles and aircraft the Ukrainians, Romanians or even NATO or the US have, I did not find a combination which would make sense under these circumstances.
For these reasons I am inclined to believe the Russian version of a fire which put the entire ship at risk and which was eventually put out, but only after major damage to the Moskva. It was a quite beautiful ship and I hope it can be salvaged, but it was also objectively very old so maybe the money would be better spent on modern Russian Navy ships.
The only major doubt left to me is whether there were any lives lost in this fire. The Russians say that 500 sailors were safely evacuated, and if that is true, that means that if there were casualties they were not large numbers, but even a single loss of life is a tragedy and such a fire did represent a MAJOR risk for the Moskva and its crew and Russian sailors are known to be willing to sacrifice their lives to save their fellow sailors and their ship. So there could be casualties, possibly more than just a few, but probably/hopefully less than a dozen.
One more note: all night long Ukie-trolls were sending me emails and comments with stuff like “so how do you feel about our missiles sinking your flagship and drowning 500+ of your fellow Moskals?“. I want to let them all know that am deeply grateful for kind their concern and I want to reassure them that I am doing quite well, thank you :-P
Apparently, the “Ze” signed a decree authorizing Ukrainian forces to attack targets in Russia and there were a few minor attacks overnight. The Russian MoD has officially announced that if this continues Russian will attack the “decision making centers” including those in Kiev.
There is no doubt in my mind at all what this is all about. It is NOT “the invincible Ukrainian military about to invade Russia up to Moscow and even the Urals”. It is about “Ze” desperately wanting a high-visibility “Russian atrocity”, but this time in Kiev. I am confident that the Russian General Staff is acutely aware of this risk and will chose its target(s) with utmost caution and will use all intelligence sources – very much including HUMINT – in the process.
That’s it from me for right now.
PS: if you come across any RECENT (post fire!) photos of the Moskva, please post them in the comments and email them to me, thank you!
UPDATE 1: here is what the MoD officially reported so far:
The source of ignition on the cruiser “Moskva” is localized. There is no open fire. Explosions of ammunition have been stopped. The cruiser “Moskva” remains buoyant. The main missile armament was not damaged. The crew was evacuated to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet in the area. Measures are being taken to tow the cruiser to the port. The cause of the fire is being established.
UPDATE 2: according to the Telegram channel of RIA Novosti:
The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation reports that during the towing of the cruiser “Moscow” to the port of destination, due to damage to the hull received during the fire from the detonation of ammunition, the ship lost stability. In the conditions of stormy sea waves, the ship sank.
Comment by Andrei: if true, this saddens me, she is/was quite a beautiful ship. I also notice the “superb” performance of the Russian MoD information operations. When will the Russians get serious about the information war????
according to https://strategika51.org/2022/04/15/le-croiseur-lance-missiles-russe-moskva-coule/, it seems that the Neptune missile is not so obsolete as described here, and has been enhanced recently. Moreover its sepcific target range is for boats > 5000 tons.
Unfortunately the pro-russian blogosphere is caught up in the same mixture of denial and commentary censorship as is the pro-western side. Not much difference on either side in that regard. Seems like every outlet is just an echochamber. I guess you just have to read on both sides and judge for yourself.
The sinking of the Moskva was an ambush prepared by the NATO, using many decoys and UAV’s, all well prepared in advance, using the huge resources of ELINT and HUMINT now used by NATO in and around Ucraine.
It is an open war of NATO against Russia using Ucrainian soldiers.
Satellites and AWACS and many others resources are used by NATO specialist inside Ucraine to direct the rocket and artillery fire on the russian troops, to prepare copter attacks, missile attacks on ships in ports or at sea, etc…
ALL the show is managed by NATO (US), and more and more weapons, specialists and resources are pouring to the Ucrainian fire in order to bleed to death the Russian society (economically, morally, socially, politically), to return to the “good old times” of Yeltsin asa good puppet in the hands of the western masters.
To stop this I only see as answer that Russia open a second front, of course by proxy, in the Middle East, encouraging the PMU, the iranians, and others to attack US garrisons in Syria, Irak and Kuwait, and supporting them with intelligence assets (like the US do in Ucraine), just to send a clear message to the US and western countries: “if they continue the war against Russia in Ucraine, their ME garrisons will be destroyed and the western economy will collapse in weeks, social unrest will be the norm in those countries due to skyrocket oil prices”, and all with plausible deniability.
If Russia continue with his “fair play” will lose many many thousands of life more, and I am not sure what the end will be.
Window on the UK
View from Whitehall, Fleet Street, Broadcasting House and Threadneedle Street.
The Russians are on the run demoralised battleships busted Ukrop Nazis slaying subhuman Ruskies in hordes its WW2 again the Ukrainian Wehrmacht thundering. See the papers the tele social media its all over! Armchair generals in London who direct the show are excitedly planning the March on Moscow where Putin will be sodomised on Red Square and hung out to dry like Gaddafi stars and stripes atop the Kremlin. See the papers the tele social media its all over! What can go wrong the West’s leaders are the new ‘Caesars’ on a divine mission ” Rule the World for the 1%”! Its excruciating.
Finland wanting to join NATO represents a major problem for Russia and escalation of the crisis at least in the mid-term.
In the context of the Ukraine crisis but prior to February 24, the Finnish president recounted on TV a phone conversation with Putin in which the Finnish informed him that joining NATO was an option for Finland. He said that Putin went into a long list of warnings about that, adding that he had never before heard Putin speak to him like that (just said it was “different”). He is very odd, something you can tell if you watch him speak. During a press conference with Putin long ago, as Putin was speaking, this Finnish pres. was looking at him with a quizzical expression and even rolled his eyes! I never saw something like that in a joint press conference.
After the hard phone conversation, we learn now that he wants to join NATO and he is supposedly in an easier position to join it than Ukraine was, and Finland is also next to Russia. Putin said the main problem with Ukraine being part of NATO would be that hypersonic weapons could reach Moscow in five minutes and, though I guess not as dangerous in Finland’s case, its accession would become a similar problem. Russia is only saying now that it would move nuclear weapons close to Finland if it joins NATO – but this may be only a first reaction, considering the overall picture. It’s just that apparently they have not taken the time to think about it. Obviously, in the past, they could have said they were not only against Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO – but also Finland needed to stay out. Because totally unnecessary, it’s a very crazy move by the Finland pres.
His name is Sauli Väinämö Niinistö.
This military operation is complete disaster. What goals are achieved. None is Dombas cleanse from nazis no. Is Ukrainian military destruction accomplished no. Is Kijev under Russian control no. Is Krakow which is on border of Russia 20 miles away under Russia control no. Odessa and Nikolayev same NO. So tell me Mr Saker for all your bombastic texts from day one how glorious and best fighting forces in galaxy will deal quickly and destroy Ukies, what happened. Please do not tell me that everything goes by the plan. Why all rail networks in western Ukraine is still intact. Why Russian soldiers who pay great price to close down Kiew are left there positions. So that Kiew now can be used for propaganda spins. Why Russian still supplies western Europe with gas when they are openly siding with Ukraine and from Puting mouth they are refusing to pay for a gas. Cruser Moscow colossal disaster and I can go on and on about mistakes and incompetence of best fighting force in galaxy and best president ever. By all counts it is shit show.
You too say Ukraine is winning, eh?
So far yes.
Well, even Generals agree with you, and many well-known pundits. Nightvision writes the “Sitrep: Operation Z” for this blog. He has information that neither American pundits nor Generals have. It is the best report of its kind in the world – “in the English language”, someone else said. These are the last paragraphs of a comment of his on Russia’s military force:
Nightvision: “So in short, the battle of Mariupol is actually going very fast for a siege of a city that’s actually double the size/population of Fallujah too.
The one thing most people don’t know is that the real war hasn’t even begun yet. Phase 1 was primarily a light recon ground assault operation which is why I’ve heard statistics (as mentioned several times) that 80% of RF losses were VDV forces. The 2 major battles of the ‘war’ so far were around Kiev and the Kherson push and both were primarily VDV light forces, whereas the 4th Guards Tank army etc slowly secured the eastern Kiev flank but didn’t really engage in any major battles like the Bucha guys did.
So in short what I’m saying is, you haven’t even seen the real Russian army yet. Russia’s light airborne forces alone destroyed 90% of the Ukrainian military. Now you are about to see the actual Russian army with its full artillery, tank armies, etc potential and you’ll see how badly Ukraine is wrecked.”
There are 2 examples of US operations that would apply
1991 Iraq which was a special operation to drive Iraq out of Kuwait
Think gain control of donbass
Degrade Ukrainian ability and will to fight the war in donbass with air and missile campaign throughout Ukraine then push remaining Ukrainian forces out of Eastern Ukraine
The other is 2003 Iraq which was regime change and defeat of military throughout Iraq
This was quick shock and awe air and missile campaign followed by weeks long multi prong invasion
They seemed to try a soft version of 2003 as this is a civil war unlike Iraq and have now changed to 1991 with the air and missile domination coming at the tail end
The reality is the russian force structure and tactics is only good enough to take the baltic states
If they had seized the baltics in a lightening operation
It would of forced nato to negotiate or go nuclear
Nato wouldn’t have gone nuclear
It would of been a gambit but with less military risk and more potential political gain than Ukraine
The US was expecting Ukraine and had a plan all mapped out
They wouldn’t have expected the baltics
Now the Baltic play is not possible
All roads lead thru Kiev
And yet the Baltic nato stranglehold remains and is emboldened
It is a strategic defeat of monumental proportions
Perhaps the ship incident is similar to the 1999 attack on the USS Cole
So a waterline attack by some sort of small vessel or submersible
Underwater suicide drone?
So damaged the ship at the water line causing it to list and sink before reaching Port?
So all 3 versions of the story
Russia- ammunition explosion from fire
Pentagon- no missile perhaps torpedo
Ukraine – Neptune missile
Are all untrue to varying degrees
Ukraine missile story is a distraction from the truth
Russian story is to hide that they know the truth
US story to cover if the truth becomes known
“When will the Russian get serious about the information war????”
Looks like they don’t do that. Thanks to Nighvision, I learned about the present “Advisor to the Head of the Office of the President of Ukraine”, Oleksiy Arestovych. He dances like Zelensky does, in the first link below. I’ll try to explain it in a separate comment.
In the link below, also via Nightvision, this high Advisor praises ISIS profusely: “…wise and successful commanders”; “they have a wise strategy”; “cruelty for show, it is inhumane, but it is of a very high level, a wise strategy”; “for them best practice of how to run business is best practice of governance”; “parallel to that, this means terrorism, middle age cruelty, the burning of people, shooting and cutting off heads – this is absolutely a network of the future.” I disagreed with arguments that Ukrainian officials are “Ventriloquist dolls”, only “puppets” – but this Advisor looks like an agent of a foreign power because he’s on video propagandizing the ISIL terrorist organization. We can imagine his advice during the present war.
Arestovych’s dance video is not really about sex. Sex is the means. He has a strong dislike of something else: Of truth, of what people call “logic”, also the concept of “right” which makes other things “wrong.” Truth-logic-right made him so angry that he danced in this way. There’s fury there; it is not promotion on his part. He is a transvestite too, for sure – but it’s about the message of rejection and spite.
During World War Two, the United States had a carrier sunk at the battle of Coral Sea. The sunk carrier somehow got back to Pearl Harbor where it was repaired in time to participate in the Battle of Midway.
Maybe the Moscva sank in drydock?
Will the Moscva rise again?
It was almost certainly attacked. Russia has a noble navy, their ships don’t just blow up.
It was almost certainly attacked. Russia has a noble navy, their ships don’t just blow up. ‘Our ammo exploded’ is sitcom level farce.
Why do people invoke God here? If you think the Lord is on any side in this ridiculous nonsense you are extremely deluded.
I’m very much in support of Russia but this war has shown a lot of weakness and loopholes in Russian military prowess. This is quite sad to see it, I hope they learn from these, cause they have no other options if they want to stay as one country. Otherwise it’s possible to have a further revolution 5-10 years from now.
You would get another idea if you read the analysis in “Sitrep: Operation Z” (I quoted a relevant comment of its author above). Other than the SMO designation, the only thing that gives me pause relates to another issue, their handling of the Covid crisis, which I thought did not go overboard much only because of the independence and strength of the Russian people. In Russia, also, they did not see the problem of hysteria rising at the same time as the Covid-19 virus. The resistance of their people seemed to restrain their reactions to that crisis. Russia did not do like Sweden and Belarus – and were these other two the best (I think so)? It was a different sort of crisis, but it tested leaders around the world. Apples and oranges? Only because of the info. provided by Nightvision do I say so. They are too conventional.
You write: ‘ Anybody thinking that this is the result of Russian incompetence, vodka or poor design better read this first: “Navy ship destroyed by fire to be dismantled at Port of Brownsville“.
Is it not possible that both imperil powers are incompetent?
Full into damage control operation, fact-checkers in Spain, are taking out some statements by some Azov battallion representative on that they really wanted to change their nazi symbology, but, in the end, people in the battallion oppossed, and that they really use this symbology our of “sentimentalism”….
I do not know, Rick, but they continue seeming to me nazis….
They wear swastikas, outlaw and beat the bejesus out of the opposition, bomb and kill civilians, torture and lynch citizens… but that doesn’t mean they’re Nazis?….
And besides, Putin is no saint…. and Russia is not the USSR….
The anti-russian side of the internet is vigorously pursuing the line that only 64 or so sailors were rescued from the Moskva (picked up by the Turks), meaning that over 400 Russians have died, which of course would be an absolute mother of all disaster.
Is it true? Did Russian MOD say definitively that 500 sailors were taken off the ship and rescued?
The New York Times does not report that today, and it would. One of the things it reports is one that is breathtaking for someone who only more or less thinks he knows Russians. It says this about the Russian letter warning of “unpredictable consequences” if the U.S. continues to send weapons to Ukraine: “The diplomatic note, called a démarche, was sent through normal channels, two administration officials said, and was not signed by President Vladimir V. Putin or other senior Russian officials.” – NYT.
Putin long ago said sending weapons was…grave let’s say, skipping the research. He only compared economic sanctions and maybe some other lesser thing to an “act of war.” His relative silence about weapon deliveries only made it stronger than any other warning, which was clear from the start! So, when now this letter arrives, which he does not even deign to sign, nor do any other high Russian officials, it is a grave and serious thing – no bluff! I commented once, “There’s a worm on the wall.” Judging from how they’re moving – the top Russian leadership – they see the worm on the wall! That’s bad. There is no power on earth, natural or supernatural, that dares to go to Ukraine right now.
The urgent time for negotiations is passing. The highest importance should be given to this letter. The only sensible policy should be obvious by now: To negotiate the best outcome possible based on their two proposals and the realities on the ground, and of course to not send even one more bullet – unless you are going to go over there to fight and will undertake such a responsibility on behalf of humanity.
Yes Southfront is also becoming more skeptical about the war:
Yes very sad about the Moskva. But I don’t understand why Russia is leaving the oldest of its large ships in the Black Sea. It’s an ancient barge with totally outdated technology. I also don’t understand why they didn’t replace it with the modernized one before the war. It’s also absolutely clear to me that NATO sank it. They have achieved their goal. Not in military terms, but in propaganda terms. It’s all over the media that Russia has lost its flagship. Likewise, it will now be difficult to fully monitor the coasts. That’s just the way it is.
Likewise, I also think that Russia has gone too timidly into the war and hoped after 3-5 days you have a surrender of Ukraine or at least a peace treaty. But it was clear from the beginning that it was not a war against Ukraine, but against NATO and there will be no peace treaty.
Yes now in phase 2 they will have to massively increase. I have great hope in the new commander-in-chief. He has already done Syria and Georgia. He knows how to do it. Not a desk fart.
I also fear that when phase 2 is over, it will be far from over. I think Russia will have to take all of Ukraine and achieve an unconditional surrender to really go into the next negotiations.
If they don’t win this war, they can offer surrender to sleepy Joe himself! Is simply so. They will also have to be much tougher on NATO in Ukraine now. Means if necessary Awacs and satellites must shoot down, likewise the many weapon supplies must destroy them. There will be no way around it.
What I also do not understand that Putin has confirmed here again the chick from the National Bank. Really the worst what there is. She will ruin Russia economically. She is simply working through the IMF’s manuals, nothing more. Here, too, a change is urgently needed. Likewise, Peskov and Lavrov would be due. Also overdue in my eyes, plus div. officers who have completely failed so far. Let’s hope for the best.
If I was Russia, I know what my response would be to the sinking of the Moskva. I would send an American LNG Tanker to the bottom of the ocean using one of my subs. The US and NATO want to deny any responsibility for the attack on the Moskva when they had everything to do with it including probably firing the missile. Some US tanker in the middle of the Atlantic… Accidents happen… Russia had nothing to do with it.
I would also have a conservation with Syria and Iran and get to work on driving the Americans out of Syria. This carries even less risk than sinking a tanker as you can use various cut outs to get the job done. All you need to do is to supply them with weapons much like the US is supplying Ukraine.
CAn anyone explain who South Front is and what we can expect from them? Is anyone here a part of their team?