by Sergei Pravosudov
translated by Evgenia
Thanks to the development of a Russian-Serbian energy co-operation. I began to frequent Serbia. At first I was fascinated by this country, as the people are friendly to Russians, but it soon became clear to me that the Serbian elite behave differently.
I was told that almost all the representatives of the Serbian political elite have certain relations with the intelligence agencies: the US, UK, Germany and other states. Last autumn, I published an article “The disappointment in Serbia”, in which I wrote about the conflict between the Serbian people and the elite. This article provoked a heated debate in Serbia, some scolded me, some praised me. But most of all I was surprised by the fact that none of my opponents denied that the Serbian political elite is actually under the control of foreign intelligence services. If Russia had information that some of the country’s leadership is cooperating with foreign intelligence services, then this person would be considered a traitor and it would be difficult for him to maintain his position.
In Serbia, the situation is different. Here in Serbia, as I understand it, the elite deem it necessary to cooperate with several foreign intelligence services in order to strengthen their position in the country, using this help from abroad. Under these conditions, hoping that this elite will defend the interests of the Serbian people is very naive. Yet the people vote for this elite. Why do they not vote for those parties who favor a union with Russia? The Serbs explained to me that the people are deceived by a propagandized media. First of all, the TV. But there is Internet media, you can get alternative information. In early March, I was back in Belgrade for the Russian-Serbian conference. There I learned that according to opinion polls, over 60% of Serbs blame the failure of the “South Stream” project on the US and the EU. It turns out that the Serbs do not trust the media, which blamed the failure of the project on Russia.
I often meet with the Serbs, and to be honest, many of the discussions end up with this: “We love Russia, give us money.” To that there is an urge to respond, “I love Serbia, give me money.” Virtually all the Serbs, with whom I’ve spoken, say: “Russia must open a television channel in the Serbian language, and finance the creation of a pro-Russian party, and then we can vote for politicians who support Russia.” Serbs are constantly citing examples of Americans who do just that.
But Russia can not compete with the US in sheer number of dollars, for the simple reason that the the US dollar is printed in the US, and in Russia it is not printed. At the same time, the US take control of the elite of other countries so they work for the benefit of the Americans, not the citizens. Russia also offers other countries mutually beneficial projects that benefit the good of the citizens of these countries. In these circumstances, it is unclear why Russia needs to control the elite of Serbia or Bulgaria. Russia needs the elites of these countries to take care of their own national interests, nothing more. But precisely this is what we do not observe.
Western propaganda always says that countries need to compete for foreign investment, to attract them. From this logic, it follows that it is not necessary to create a Russian TV channel in Serbia, on the contrary, Serbia needs to advertise in the Russian media, to attract investment from Russia. But for Russian investments, this approach is clearly not the case. Russia must fight for the right to invest their money in the creation of gas transportation infrastructure in Serbia. However, no real alternative transportation projects in Serbia, are even offered by other states. Therefore, the refusal of the Russian project means that there will be no alternatives. Perhaps this is the actual reason for the interest in Serbia.
In Bulgaria, there were also high hopes for the arrival of foreign investment, after the country joined NATO and the EU. But this did not happen. Bulgarian industry was destroyed. Western investments were invested in the creation of shopping complexes in Bulgaria, where you can buy foreign goods and food, as well as the roads on which these products were carried through foreign transport companies. Life in Bulgaria is glimmering in the coastal zones where more than 400 thousand houses and apartments are owned by Russians. The largest taxpayer in Bulgaria is the Russian company “LUKOIL”, which owns the refinery in Burgas and a network of gas stations. By the way, the level of wages in Burgas higher than the national average.
Due to mass unemployment, millions of Bulgarians migrate to other countries, the birth rate fell to negative values. As a result, Bulgaria’s population dropped from 9,000,000 in 1990 to 7,000,000 today. By 2050, Bulgaria will host 5 million people, most of whom will be the Romans and Turks. As a result, the people who lived in the Balkans are no more than one thousand. In some years they will disappear from before our eyes. When I say this I am struck by some of the Serbs reactions : “Let the Bulgarians die, than Sofia will be Serbian town.” And this is highly educated people who make these comments, who have doctoral degrees. For any sensible person it is obvious that Sofia will not become a Serbian town, as Serbia is degraded just as much as Bulgaria. Rather Sofia will again become a Turkish city.
I understand that the history of relations between Bulgaria and Serbia is very complicated. These countries have repeatedly fought among themselves. However, circumstances that threaten the very existence of the Serbs and Bulgarians have to look for something that combines the Slavic peoples, instead of summoning up old grievances. But the Serbs can not even agree among themselves. When you talk with the Serbs, they are always struck by the fact that they are slinging mud at each other. You will quickly get told that the majority of Serbs, are “bad Serbs.” Depending on who you’re talking to, “bad Serbs” will be located in Belgrade, Vojvodina, Bosnian, Montenegrin, and some other parts of Serbia. And if you praise some Serbs, then you immediately get told that he is actually not a patriot, but a mason or a CIA agent. Even Kosovo Serbs, who are living on the verge of physical survival, cannot agree among themselves.
This is very scary. When you talk with the Serbs you are always surprised that they always remember about past successes and glorious history of their country, but almost never talk about the future of Serbia. Obviously, if everything will continue as it is now, the future of Serbia does not exist. The west offers a future to the separatist Serbs who work against their own country. Some Serbs bind their future to emigration. But Serbia as a highly developed, strong country – the Western countries do not need.
Most Serbs understand this perfectly. It seems that the bombing of 1999 broke the Serbs. They fear a repeat of this nightmare. Today, Russia is testing the pressure of Western sanctions, like Serbia recently did. Russia will continue to fight for her freedom, because we still have a lot of people who prefer to die fighting than to live on their knees. Are there such people in Serbia? The answer to this question can only be answered by the Serbs themselves. That depends on the answer to another question, which I have learned in the title text: Does Serbia have a future?
It is very difficult for Serbia to do anything positive for itself, because we are surrounded with NATO and EU countries. Bulgarians destroyed the South Stream project, which is just as they have performed the national suicide, killing us also.
The only way for Russia to somehow help Serbia is to get Bulgaria out of the NATO/EU/Anglo/Zionist orbit.
But it seems they cannot do that.
After all, I said many times here that only the decisive Russian (Novorussian) victory in Ukraine will boost the moral of the Serbs so that they can raise again. Odessa must be the goal for pro-Russian forces and Russia itself in this conflict. Only by getting to Odessa, Russia will take over the Balkans. That is why the Nazis killed 114 pro-Russian activists in Odessa in 2014., to send the message that Russia should not dream about it.
It is up to Russia really.
Serbia is exhausted from the wars in the nineties.
How can a small country like ours defend ourselves against EU, NATO and vengeful neighbours all at once?
Serbia has ceased exist, as we are now a colony of the same people who waged war against us. For me it has become something abstract,..a myth, a legend.
It is up to Russia. They are in a desperate situation, kind of like pro-Russians in Odessa. If they get outside help, they will get off their knees. Otherwise, no.
This is like in the Cold War, when many in the West wanted those in Eastern Europe to rebel. Expecting Serbians to commit suicide is impractical.
With due respect to authors beliefs, it is hard for Serbia to match Russia in countering foreign pressure. It is a tiny country and has been broken down several times. It lacks natural resources, large population, army, nukes or strong leader.
Not every country can be a Cuba – and even Cuba required a Castro and USSR. I wish Serbia well but can’t blame them for not taking a stand.
Born in Serbia, educated in Serbia, living all my life in Serbia, working in Serbia… and yet I have NEVER heard such claims about Russia(ns) and Bulgaria(ns), as they are interpreted here in this article: “We love Russia, give us money.” and “Let the Bulgarians die, than Sofia will be Serbian town.” Guess 50 years of living in Serbia is not enough to meet such people that Mr. Pravosudov managed to meet in his “frequents”.
In any event, his observations on Serbian elite behavior, AFTER they get elected, appear to be correct. But he missed to analyze what was their behavior BEFORE they get elected, and what was their agenda then…
Western propaganda is present here for at least 5 decades. Russian is nil.
Some years back I was managing a local TV station, and wanted to broadcast some Russian stations from Russian satellites. It lasted for just about few weeks, and almost everyone in the audience was screaming to put back FOX, MTV, and other popular US channels.
English language is mandatory in schools, Russian is not even offered as an option.
See, I can write (and speak) in English, but can barely compose just a few words in Russian. Average Serbian does speak some English, but almost no Russian.
Future of Serbia is not really promising. Even Serbian Church is involved in serving western insterests.
Re: “We love Russia, give us money.” comment: it boils down to this. Mr. Pravosudov claims that X happened to him, and you (and others further down) say ‘hey, X never happened to me, so it couldn’t have happened to Pravosudov either’.
Do you realize how logically weak your argument is? That just because nobody told you, a Serb, ‘we love Russia, give us money’ or that you haven’t heard about it, that it couldn’t have happened to a Russian? That is embarrassingly weak reasoning.
I don’t read that as “Love Russia gimme cash” all in one breath. He’s saying their attitude is they expect help from Russia. They spend a lot of time raving how everything about Russia is good, and they’re brothers etc etc, then in other conversations say Russia should give them a loan, or help them build something etc etc Maybe BECAUSE they feel a big brother should help.
Unlike Ukraine which DEMANDS help from Russia and spews hate at them.
You know how it is, you get 2 Serbs and straight away you have 3 political parties.
Also the bombing didnt break us, the 5th columnist IDIOTS that would sell their own mother to advance their career broke us
I am a Bulgarian and the article is correct about my country. Bulgaria is going to vanish soon, in no more than 20-30 years.
As for politicians – all of them deserve prison for treason, incl. former socialists. There is no one to vote for.
Except for ATAKA.
huh to be honest I didn’t know we Serbians had somewhat similar situation to Bulgarians same shit is happening in Serbia i would not be surprised if my country becomes China 2.0
“This is very scary. When you talk with the Serbs you are always surprised that they always remember about past successes and glorious history of their country, but almost never talk about the future of Serbia. Obviously, if everything will continue as it is now, the future of Serbia does not exist. ”
That is easy to explain – people are so beat down and demoralized, that they don’t believe in any sort of great future. Rather the opposite.
As already mentioned I have family there and I often visited them for months at a time, before and after all these wars. The glorious history mentioned above is simply all that’s left and that gives people some sort of comfort and personal value. Which is badly needed in times where your life gets de-valued on a daily basis since decades, without any relief in sight.
The above about the corrupt politicians and foreign influence is absolutely true, it’s also true for the whole rest of former Yugoslavia. Serbia has the dirtiest bastards though, they sold the crown jewels to the arabs (Serbs were under merciless muslim rule for centuries, thus something like that was unthinkable a few decades ago) and they got the guy who bombed the country as a “presidential advisor”, paid by their own tax money.
The trouble is, the people there are neither pushed by high morals nor do they have any serious or realistic hope, nor do they have serious weapons or any real power. The mandatory state military service was removed immediately after the war and there is basically only a mercenary army there since. The police etc. got completely owned too, so basically it would be REALLY hard to do anything productive. Senseless violence or half-baked revolutions are certainly not the right way though. Maybe we’d need our own Gandhi of some sort, though I doubt that would work with such little countries like all the new crazy, corrupted split-offs from ex-Yugoslavia.
On the more positive side, Serbs have survived some 600 years under the Ottoman empire, I do believe the folk as such will survive this too.
It appears to me Serbia’s main problems are economic and 5th column.Along with a lack of unity in the Balkans themselves.As far as I know there are no real border disputes with Bulgaria or Macedonia and Serbia.So why do the Serbians (some party) not deal with those countries (some parties there) to form a pro-Russian/South Stream alliance.Some say Serbia is surrounded.But you have a coastline (small true).So you are not totally surrounded.You also could come to friendly agreements as I said with Bulgaria and Macedonia.But also with Greece,they need friends right now badly.And your common enemy is Albania.Then there is Hungary,they are also under pressure from the EU/NATO.So there is another potential friend,or at least not an enemy.I discount Bosnia.The splits there negate them as a real problem for you.And Montenegro isn’t either really.Croatia and Albania/Kosovo are possibly.But your military is certainly stronger than they are.Its doubtful they will attack you.Especially if you talk to Russia about joining in military talks and maybe the EEU with them.Serbia’s position isn’t hopeless.Its the collapse of will to find solutions that is the problem there and in all Eastern Europe.Western propaganda has brainwashed many to believe in Eastern Europe they are worthless and second class.That is the problem.You are not.You just need the will to overcome your problems.Russia can help,and should.But only YOU can solve those problems.When for 500 years the Turks oppressed Serbs and others who fought them.You yourselves freed yourselves.Certainly Russia gave some help,but the most work was done by you.Who drove the nazis from your land.Who were the men that fought the nazis and Ustase,it was you.NATO is strong,but they are not as cruel as the Ottomans,and the nazis.And yet you fought those.Today Russia would never allow NATO to bomb Serbia like Yeltsin did,those evil days are gone.
“Some say Serbia is surrounded.But you have a coastline (small true).So you are not totally surrounded.”
You are mistaken, my friend. We are land-locked. No coastline, even small one like you said.
Sorry,you are of course correct.I was thinking of the pre-breakup between Serbia and Montenegro and I was thinking of of the Kotor area. But leaving that aside the rest of my thoughts I think are right.
Yes, I mostly agree. Except on this:
“You also could come to friendly agreements as I said with Bulgaria and Macedonia.But also with Greece”
You see, there’s a problem here, but not between Serbia and any of there countries, but between these countries themselves. The Serbs would gladly agree to cooperate more closely with the said countries. We are friendly towards them all and most people here consider them good neighbours and even like them. BUT, you will never get Greece and Macedonia cooperating on anything, same for any combination of said countries. There’s a lot of politics involved in this, but the end result is – if you were to have any of these countries as potential ally (even on just some selected issues) you would have to exclude the other two.
The only thing that can get us to sit at the same table is some kind of aggression coming from Turkey. Otherwise it’s “every man for himself”…
I agree there .But I think its Serbia’s co-operation with them I mean.I’m also not so sure that something couldn’t be worked out between Macedonia and Bulgaria.It isn’t as dire as between Greece and Macedonia I think.Also there is the fact that with the Greeks and Macedonians, both not liking Albania.And if the South Stream is to go through Macedonia they would have to co-operate at least a little bit.I think both of them might be convinced out of self-interest.Haha,maybe I’m an optimist there.
Serbia had a coastline once…
Before the Ottoman Empire.
Serbia hasnt had a coastline for over 500 years. Check on any map. Even a 19th century map of the Kingdom of Serbia will show you that Serbia has no coastline. Youre probably getting Serbia confused with Yugoslavia.
Yes,in fact that whole area before the Ottoman’s was confusing.Up to the middle of Dalmatia was at one time “Serbian” in the ethnic sense.Then it passed to Croatian rule and people began to be considered Croats.That happened with the split in Christianity between Catholics and Orthodox.The Slavic regions that became Catholic began to be considered Croats.While those becoming Orthodox began to think of themselves as Serbs.Then from the late 1600’s there were large numbers of Orthodox that moved into the border regions into areas that had been depopulated by the fighting between the Ottomans and Hapsburg’s for control there.The Hapsburg’s invited Serbs to move there and protect the lands of the rest of Croatia as a military force.After the Ottomans were defeated and Serbia rebelled and freed themselves from Ottoman rule there was a situation in which around 25% or so of the people of historic Croatia were of Serbian ancestry.Mostly in those borderlands,where they were the vast majorities.
Next door in Bosnia you had something similar.An almost totally Slavic speaking population divided by religion into ethnic units based on religion.If you were Catholic you were a considered a Croat.If an Orthodox Christian you were considered a Serb.While unlike Croatia,long centuries of Ottoman rule saw many Slavs convert to Islam.And those people were/are called Bosniaks.At the time of WW1 around 45-46% of Bosnia was Serb with a small Croat and large Bosniak population.But the Serbs were the largest ethnic group.In Bosnia and especially in Serbia that war saw around a million people, mostly Serbs killed.Around 500,000 of them civilians.Either dead from starvation,the fighting,or murdered by the Austro-Hungarian,German,or Bulgarian occupying armies.
Then only a generation later came WW2 and over 1 million more people died in that war.The vast majority of them Serbs,and most of them civilians.A very many of them,in the hundreds of thousands slaughtered by fascist Croats,Bosniaks,Italians,and German nazis for the crime of being Serb.The fascist Ustase Croats,helped by some Bosniaks,went on an orgy of murders of Serbs.Wanting to “racially cleanse Greater Croatia (including Bosnia) of the sub-human Serb Orthodox”.Sounds familiar to the Ukie nationalists of today.Well it should,they have a lot in common with the Ustase.Reaching all the way back to the same fascist roots of their movements.
Those horrendous slaughters left a bitterness between the ethnic peoples in Bosnia,Croatia,and Serbia,that came out to force during the 1990’s in the “Yugoslav Wars”.It also left Serbs as no longer the main group in Bosnia.And allowed the Bosniaks to replace them as the single largest group (though not by much).The murders also dropped the Serb population in Croatia to a little below 20%.The monstrous Kraijina ethnic cleansing has now dropped the centuries old Serb population to around 5% in Croatia.
Well your history is not quite correct. Both Serbs and Croats were there even before rome and while they do come from the same original tribal group (somewhere between Germany and Poland, today Brandenburg), they have always been separate folks and always had quarrels.
Then there was a huge movement both ways, especially in the WW2 hundreds of thousands of Serbs became “Croats” overnight and accepted Catholicism, for purely survival purposes. Then on top of all that we have the mass of people coming from mixed marriages etc.
So it’s a very mixed bag and there are no clear lines. In the end, the groups are really only separated by ideology. Genetically, you could say that we are all one people, including the bosnian moslems and Montenegro. Only Slovenians and Macedonians are really separate tribes with another language etc.
What a strong empowering comment. Thank you! I left Serbia some 11 years ago and came to US for college. I thought I would be a disappointment if I didn’t manage to stay here and earn myself a green card. But the Serbian pride is still beating hard in me and I am confident that I will be moving back home. My country needs us back.
Serbia was lost in the 1st World War. Correct me if I’am wrong, but somewhere about 30% of adulat male population perished in teh war, with many left disabled. The fighting spirit was broken. How is then possible that in the Second World War, the vast majority of fighters against Nazis and colaborators were – Serbs? Because those were Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia, with significant part of Monetenegrines. Very few people from ‘propper’ Serbia or Vojvodina were part of that fight.
Tito’s partizans and comunists – most of them were Serbs, from Bosnia, Croatia and Montenegro. It is not true that there was no resistance in Serbia, either. The first attempts of diversionas and skirmishes with Germans, in 1941 in Serbia led to mass killings, 100 serbs for a German soldier, 1000 for an officer. In total, 9,000 were shot in a single day in Kragujevac, another 6,000 in Kraljevo, a week later. How is that for fighting spirt?
Chetniks in Serbia propper were “waiting for the orders from the King to start fighting”. Chetniks from Bosnia and Croatia were fighting Germans and ustashe actively – mountains Romanija and Ozren in Bosnia, Dinara in Croatia-Dalmatia were mostly under their control. Until comunists took over.
Then in 1942 comunists decided that the main nemy is not Germans and ustashe, but -chetniks. So, serbs were fighting serbs, and Germans and ustashe. Many lost their lives. At the end, comunista were victorious. What was left of serbian elite and educated people, they were decimated in the first years after the WWII, for being khulaks. Like any elite, there were some who colaborated with Germans, some were not. In any case, more serbian heads roled, in hands of – fellow serbs, in the name of revolution, and brotherhood with Grat Daddy from SSSR . That was not the end of serbian troubles.
In 1948, Tito decided to split from Staljin, literaly overnight. Many comunists, mostly serbs again, were physicaly removed, from their homes and workplaces, good number from their lives, as ‘soviet spies’. People from academia, working class, professionals, army officers, security forces, noone was spared. The hammer and sicle worked in high gear. Then, with what was left of demoralized serbs, the regime wanted to promote the worst ones, as long as they promised loyality to the (Comunist) Party and the regime.
So yes, Serbs have a lots of reasons to be demoralized. For how long? Until they appear insignificant to the powers to be. And until the powers to be are strong. That means at least two or three generations. I am 55, born and raised in comunist Yugoslavia, my kids are 20+. Their generation is doomed, by doings or not doings of our generation, and generation of our fathers (too young to fight in WWII, old enough to take charge of teh country after the war). So our fathers ruled teh country and by doing or not doing things led to teh break up in 1990s. Serbs again suffered. My generation had it mostly good, except for the 1990s. Shamefully, we are not ready to fight now. Many of us safely evacuated kids – we emigrated to the West mainly.
Even if we had enough courage to fight, we would not know or could not agree what to fight for. For Serbia? For Yugoslavia, to bring it back? For more just society? Until we dissapear from the scene, by death or dementia, nothing will happen. When my grandchildren loose memories of the past, their children perhaps will be able to fight for something.
Sad, but it is what it is. That is how nations disappear. Only the strogest survive, and serba are no more strong.
From personal experience West (more so Czech, Slovak) Slavs and South Slavs are very individualistic people at this stage in time. Maybe it is a reaction to the former “Socialist” Regime which mandated collectivism? I do not know.
Many slavs of these nations are also very materialistic/ with vindictive jealousy which go hand in hand. Maybe this is also a legacy of the “Socialist” Regime and the “equality” mantra that they mandated in theory and put somewhat into practice, when compared to their present regimes, many of them failed states, only not in name!
When those who comprise a group are as individuals very individualistic, it is much easier to corrupt and control.
Throw in this group’s penchant for materialism, and you have what the author above, describes in his article.
No, that’s just a normal consequence of being poor. Most basic survival tactics.
Yes. In the Czech Republic/Slovakia there are many people who you can call the working poor, but that is not the main reason. For example, they have enough to eat and roof over the heads, free medical care and schooling, including University Education.
It is the sense of “me first” and the “ends justify the means” above all. I lived there for 8 years and those are my observations shared by many who live or have lived there.
Well I was born and raised in Yugoslavia, I can talk about that and not about the Czech version. It was not quite the same version of socialism, apart from the totally different mixture of nationalities. And we were not “owned” by rusia, but were always slaves of the west since the WW2. Albeit under better conditions and less obvious back then.
The individualism you’re mentioning is none, it’s rather stupid, lowly egoism. That’s the result of decades of brainwashing through the western-owned media and movies, the “equalizing” (in a bad sense, equality = Gleichschaltung in reality) system etc. Most obvious example are all those “reality” and “talent” shows, all promoting dirty competition and egotism and selling that utter prostitution and lowly materialism as some great way of life. Minds are poisoned and too many people are dumbed-down and uninformed, or just too occupied in their hamster wheel.
Yes this “egosim” you call and describe is what I labelled “individualism”., Perhaps “egoism” is a better term.
The brainwashing and dumbing down you mention is exactly as you describe in the Czech Republic! We slavs are very alike in our responses to it!
As slavs we are really ONE Nationality. This fragmentation was carried since long ago by the Franks, to first divide by religion, and then by “(slavic) nationalities”
Now we have these slavic “banana republic” almost failed states like Czech Rep, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia, Montenegro (Rothschild Playground), in debt up to the ears, fire-sale privatizations, lack of employment, etc.
Yes, the small multi-cultural former country of Yugoslavija, then Serbia in particular. was destroyed by the western coalition of 19 countries, while the world watched.
Today it is a Serbian-patriot suppression colony managed by Pro-Western so called “Elite”. Although they cannot do much, except follow directions, there is no pride in their sorry business and that hurts the most. They did not do “Silance de la mer” by Vercors.
Serbians do not blame others because “the world watched”, they know from history that when the devil rises its ugly head, it takes a lot of time and lot of blood to get rid of it. They just try to make a daily living in a very difficult situation of a colony depending on western hand-outs.
Serbians do not need your money. Keep it for yourself, please. They need their own money taken away from them by IMF and other thieves of the kind, on daily basis. They are still courageous and capable people, providing they can do their own thing.
What happens to Serbia is normal in circumstances. Serbia came out of Pan-Slavic dream then Communism, only to be overwhelmed by predators of Capitalism (which is anyway in its final phase). Look at other countries. What did Dutch do when their plane was “taken out from the skies”? Non-disclosure agreement to shut-up. What Russia did when the wall came down? It almost disintegrated forever. What French Canadians did when they were conquered by English? They learned English.
Do not ask for the future of Serbia and do not judge. Until there is one Serbian being on this Planet, Serbia lives.
Србија је вечна док су јој деца верна!
“Serbia is eternal if her children are loyal to her!”
And there are still many good and honest people in Serbia. Serbia will survive. The fighting spirit of Serbian people is not dead. The world might be surprised yet again by Serbia, like it happened many times before.
Sergey Alexandrovich Pravosudov is the general director of Russian “National energy institute”
(use https://translate.yandex.com/translate for details).
This is a very weak think-piece (‘article’ is pushing it), and I’m not sure why it’s being reproduced on this fantastic site. I come here for informed analysis, not psycho-cultural anecdotes from someone who is clearly writing with some kind of personal agenda.
Especially because much of it is not even slightly believable, e.g. most discussions he’s had with Serbs end up with them saying, “We love Russia, give us money”?? Come on, what kind of rubbish is that… I might try that next time I see an American tourist. “Hey mate! USA rocks! Can you get your government to ship a couple of billion to the UK government to help our economy please? I know you have nothing to do with high level governmental foreign aid fund transfers, but I thought I’d ask since you are American, and I do love Americans.”
Above all what I don’t like about it is that the author is even more insulting towards ordinary people than to elites (who are clearly the overwhelming cause of the problem). Anybody who characterises a country’s populace like this (whether it’s about ‘lazy Greeks’, ‘corrupt Russians’ or whatever) is both wrong and offensive.
Any particular reason why my comment is not showing?
My apologies, I see my comment published now. BTW, I am a Canadian Czech anti-zionist.
Dear friend Mordechai, you are welcome, only there has been no moderating for a few hours.
I would mostly agree with Mr.Pravosudov’s assessment of the situation in Serbia along with all the comments posted so far.
Yet, I tend to be an optimist and someone with deep faith in the resilience of the Serbian people and may I add of the Bulgarian people.
I would venture to suggest that this optimism is not based on nothing, but on the fact that despite relentless creeping pressure on all fronts of the public life of Serbia, there are still the majority of the Serbs who are not brained washed.
There will never come a time when Serbian people will not be in favor of Russia. Never, or at least, until such a time when there is at least one Serb still standing.
I think that what is needed to give that necessary push for the Serbian people to stand up would be the strengthening of Russia internally and for Russia to continue to guard its own authentic independence the way it has been doing.
It must be remembered that the influence of Russia has been absent in Serbia since at least 1948, yet what is in the hearts of the Serbian people has not been deleted.
I cringe when the worst among Serbs are referred to as elites. These so called elites in Serbia had surfaced via the negative selection process that was prevalent since the times the communists took over.
Serbs had to endure Tito for decades and had a lot less hope then than now simply because there was no hope in Russia, it being the communist USSR.
Along the lines of Svetolik’s comment regarding the we love Russia give us money statement I would strongly disagree, as personally I have yet to meet a Serb who would seriously think in this manner.
There is one proverb in Serbian language which I would venture to translate as follows:”The worse it gets the better it becomes”.
I often wondered at the above proverb and often thought what on earth does it really mean.
My own interpretation is that the worsening of the situation is bringing closer the moment of the active resistance. Serbs have an enormous potential for sustaining insult and injury of all kind in a most amazing passive resistance attitude. Then comes a moment when enough is enough.
Serbian society is approaching this breaking point moment.
Indeed, Serbia does have a future though it is right now lurking in the shadows of the downtrodden average Serb who is taking it and taking it but coming ever so closer to standing up.
There are many causes for Serbian nation’s traits including the glorious past illusions and overly self critical attitudes to the point of the manifest self hatred along with the lull in self respect currently palpable. Yet, none of it is permanent or rather determining factor in this people’s future.
It is the so called West’s historical pressure and its same old same politics that has inextricably linked the fate of Serbian people with the fate of the Russian people. These links are so profound as to be almost determining the outcome or the future of the Serbian people.
Perhaps the above can also be applied to Bulgarian people.
The end game is yet to come and it may be that the history will be repeated and not because Serbs did not learn anything from history but because the West is seeking to keep repeating it.
The backbone of the Serbian nation has not been broken yet and the proof of it is in the fact that the worst pressure came after the 1999 bombing and is continuous, yet it is not over until the fat lady sings as the saying goes.
The trait of Serbian people that helped us survive the toughest of times is also one of our greatest curses. And this is – the ability to endure enormous suffering without giving a sound.
So don’t be afraid if you don’t hear the Serbs now. We are just taking blows until the enemy tires. Then it’s our turn.
You’re beginning to push it/no need to go there:
“without giving a sound”
“Along the lines of Svetolik’s comment regarding the we love Russia give us money statement I would strongly disagree, as personally I have yet to meet a Serb who would seriously think in this manner.”
So maybe he is in fact lying, exaggerating or making it up, just as an excuse the slam the Serb people and gloat about how Russia doesn’t have to give them any genuine help, monetarily.
your comment is very logical, though I am afraid I may not be able to provide what would be at the source of such a statement by Mr.Pravosudov.
I do not think that there is any sinister agenda behind it, though.
I mostly resonate with what Mr.Pravosudov wrote in this article, though I have to say that it seems to come from someone who does not quite yet understand the typical Serbian mentality(no, I would not go there at this time);
I said that your comment was very logical, yet what comes to my mind as a possible scenario that this took place in would not be supported by any logic at all.
Serbs do have a very warped sense of humor that is referred to often as black humor and it may have been uttered by someone who was “joking”..I know, this argument can be slammed from all sides, but Serbs do have a tendency to mock and deride even the most serious subject in an almost absurdist manner or rather nihilist worldview where nothing really matters.
It may have come at the end of a serious conversation when this self undoing nihilistic trait would come out and just render senseless the entire conversation before it.
Along the lines – yes, we established that we love you but give me the money now – no logical argument can explain such an instance at all, however, if one knows this deep trait in a Serb one would see why it may have taken place.
I was born in former Yugoslavia, Serbia, and have lived there during my childhood, then later, while former Yugoslavia was still around I left for university studies abroad and have lived in many European countries since and USA. However, I have been back residing in my native city often during the last decade and a half. The reason I said all this is because only after I became familiar with different mentalities did I begin to understand better the traits of the people I belong to.
I think that one of the posters said here how Serbia is run by a bunch of pre schoolers who run rampant and are totally immature.
To an observer indeed this is how it appears. Not that it might not be true in essence, though there is more to it than just simple immaturity.
So, “we love Russians, give us money” could be viewed as an expression of propensity for derision of all the serious subjects and all sense and purpose of the world that lurks in many a Serb. No doubt the history had a lot to do with it.
I am not sure it made much sense what I wrote up there, but I have tried to render more clear what your post brought out in its full logic.
I still stand by the statement that I have not yet met a Serb who would utter such a statement in full seriousness to any Russian.
thank you for the comment you made as it made me reflect even more on what I know within but have not tried before to verbalize or express.
Little off-topic but….Both the Cetniks and Ustasha were different sides to the same coin, at the time held by Nazi Germany. The Cetniks were responsible for countless atrocities before Jasenovac. There are photos of Cetnik and Ustasha Leader side by side and smiling: http://espressostalinist.com/g…
The divide and conquer of the south-slavs was started long ago with the Vatican playing a large part. See: Crimen Magnus by Viktor Novak a former Croatian Priest. The book was designated an anathema by the Catholic Church, meaning that Catholics are forbidden from reading it!
Once this is realized, in regards to the puppets that the Cetniks and Ustasa were, it will act as a catalyst to the reconciliation of the South Slavs, the Croatians, and Serbs. Christ said that forgiveness has to be a condition in believing in him. Both parties claim to believe in Christ. If not this viscous circle will continue to the delight of the puppet masters pulling the strings of the south slavs and the slavs in the Ukraine,etc.
Croatian sources claim that there were some ~3.500 Croatian victims killed by Cetnik militias. Compare this to the at least 700.000 (JUST in concentration camps) killed by Ustashe. And then you will see that the two can NEVER be considered equal. Claim that they were all puppets is true to some extent, but other than that there is just no basis for comparison these two groups.
You are quite right, your data is correct. A general problem with social media is that anyone can post without seriously researching the unfamiliar topic at hand, thus spreading disinformation even unwittingly.
Yes, people like to take things out of historical context, generalize things or ‘relativize’..
Every civilian victim is a tragedy, regardless of nationality. There were crimes by chetniks, committed on civilians too. But you can’t say “therefore they are the same as Ustashe”. Like I said every crime deserves to be punished and those crimes were mostly well documented. So by comparing the two there is clear and huge difference. Thus I say some people relativize these things…
I heard people saying Milosevic was same as Hitler. Which, of course, is ridiculous. Again, Milosevic was no sweetheart but drawing equation sign between him and Hitler is wrong.
Just like: Russia took part of Ukraine. Hitler’s Germany took territories of other countries too. So this means Putin = Hitler. (this was actually said by some hi ranking western diplomats).
Or when people generalize: ISIS, Al-qaeda and other extremist groups are terrorists. So muslim = terrorist. Again, wrong.
And you are right, people spread disinformation like this. Some of it, with time, can become dangerous and hurt whole societies.
You are correct, of course, it is common sense. (Incidentally, that quoted “source” is a comically bizarre Greater-Albania-Enver-Hoxa-worshiping-Zionist devotional web site, & ‘tis merely one of their faithful trying for their début on Saker’s blog “… oh, would anyone only listen … pleeease?…” :-))
much appreciate any tips about background of sites new to us, thanks
“Or when people generalize: ISIS, Al-qaeda and other extremist groups are terrorists. So muslim = terrorist. Again, wrong.”
I’m glad you think so too. That’s the good thing in our (former) country, we grew up with mostly normal muslims and we know that those groups are not really representing any sort of majority. Westerners don’t have that experience, thus it’s easier to sell that fallacy there.
If possible please link your sources about only 3500 victims of the cetniks.
Here are my sources not to mention that the Cetniks actively cooperated with Nazi German Troops.
In just a few days of February 1943, the Serbian Chetniks under the leadership of Draza Mihailovich committed a genocide of close to 20,000 Bosniak Muslims in the Podrinje area (around Srebrenica region) – mostly women, children and elderly. Serbian Chetniks themselves admitted killing over 9,000 people in this genocidal campaign alone.
I will take me some time until I find the names and books as it was a while since I read about it. But I will post it when I find it.
Regarding your sources from Expresso Stalinist:
As the author states himself: “I am a working class, self-taught, unrepentant Marxist-Leninist” it sounds very biased right off the bat.
I immediately searched for info on:
– where the bolsheviks came from
– who funded them
etc. but the author was shy about that info. A lot of bias towards Tzar and Russian Empire…
In order to understand why I don’t expect from a ‘Leninist’ to give unbiased info on Cetniks know this:
you can draw a parallel between Cetnik movement and Commies here with Whites and Reds in Russia. In this case Cetniks would be Whites, monarchists. So just like this is biased and favours author’s Marxist-Leninist views I am suspicious it is biased towards other monarchists.
Cetniks were between a rock and a hard place in ww2. Hated by Nazis and their allies on one side and by Yugo commies on the other side. As they were direct political opponents to Tito and the party they were demonized and declared collaborators/traitors. (note that on some occasions some cetnik formations really made some deals with the devil). If at that time Croats were to say that Cetniks massacred 10 million innocents, that would be readily accepted by the other side. I gave here an example of OBVIOUS exaggeration, but know that there were many exaggerations regarding Cetniks. Many myths about them were debunked and some still do.
I have no intention to try and whitewash the Chetnik movement and portray them as pure. I actually for some reason don’t like them myself. (maybe it’s because of the beards…) I am aware that they killed both Croatian and even more muslim civilians. But you have to dig deeper to find the real numbers. By real I mean: see what different sources say on the topic. Take American, German authors too, not just Croatian and Serbian… You will see that number varies greatly, to the point that it is very hard to make sense of it all. You see, even the source you provided says: “Death Toll – Unknown” and then gives a wide range.
Listen what Americans that were alive at the time and were ACTUALLY THERE say about Draza and his Cetniks:
They blame the deal between Tito and the British crown for making a deal and therefore Cetniks had to be portrayed in the worst light possible. Commies were hasty to destroy a lot of evidence that didn’t align by their ‘official’ story. But even after all that it is still cleat that there are many inconsistencies in their version.
All this requires a lot more than one comment on a blog to explain. So I suggest everyone to do their own research on the subject of Cetniks. I myself would have to do a lot more reading on the issue to give detail info on some of those massacres mentioned.
But I stand by my original statement that Cetniks and Ustase can’t be called 2 sides of the same coin as that is a revision of history.
Dude, *you* should wake up! That linked site is a total bunch of bulls*it if I ever saw one.
also it’s officially presenting itself as “marxist-leninist”, so we are even directly being told we’re dealing with a criminal liar.
Chetniks were the remnants of the regular army from the pre-WW Kingdom. Some of them did do a few minor episodes here and there, but it totally fades in comparison to any other group down there.
Croatian Nazis killed about a million people, the number of victims of the jihadist Handjar-brigade in Bosnia is also very high, Albanians worked for italian fascists and also did major killings and “cleansing” (WW2 in Kosovo went till 1948 or so) etc.
So in this context, Serbs are not even worth mentioning. They were always rather the opposite, the glue that kept all those south-slavic states together in various incarnations before and after the war.
@T2015 Many people still follow ‘blame the Serbs trend’. Recent was didn’t help with this either, because MSM and western politicians blamed it all on Serbs. And today the generations that grew-up hearing of killer criminal Serbs are just continuing the trend. They can’t help it as that is the only version they heard.
Do you remember reports like this?
Sunday, May 16, 1999
It includes a bizarre lie of 100.000 Albanians killed. And that was stated by State Department officials. It was reported on mayor western media outlets.. Of course, number was later corrected to ~1500 combatants and ~6 – 8000 non-combatants. So they easily LIED TEN TIMES MORE than actual numbers of KIA. Of course, nobody apologized for spreading this disinformation… Many still claim that this is true by quoting these same wacko officials….
Now the same goes for taking KPJ (Communist Party of Yugoslavia) claims about Draza Mihajlovic for granted. But even they couldn’t tie his name to any of the atrocities. But they still killed him.
His site has extensive crimes of the Ustasa posted as well. He spares no bias.
Tito’s (communist) partisans were the sanest ones of the bunch at that time, not angels however.
It’s time to wake up. The truth will set you free…..
Communist were usurpers of the genuine resistance there, it was a quick diversion which only worked because they had the only somewhat organized group and thus took the leadership. And of course they sold the usual socialist propaganda like there’s no tomorrow.
I remember my grandpa describing how they came to his village, selling fairy tales of milk and honey that will flow for everyone forever, only when the “People” finally get the power. The usual blah for the gullible. They got booed out of the village, people were not that stupid back then.
You know how that works, simple fallacy just like today, only it was much easier to pull off back then.
So why did President Truman award the Chetnik leader, General Mihailovic, the Legion of Merit medal?
“LEGION OF MERIT – CHIEF COMMANDER: General Dragoljub Mihailovich distinguished himself in an outstanding manner as Commander-in-Chief of the Yugoslavian Army Forces and later as Minister of War by Organizing and leading important resistance forces against the enemy which occupied Yugoslavia, from December 1941 to December 1944. Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control. General Mihailovich and his forces, although lacking adequate supplies, and fighting under extreme hardships, contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory.”
– Harry S. Truman, March 29, 1948.
On July 3 1988 USS Vincennes deliberately shot down Iran Air flight 655 killing all 290 people on board, later claiming accident. The ship received a Combat Action Ribbon for this, and her commander, Capt Will Rogers III later received a Legion of Merit for that period of his command.
Just saying, a medal doesn’t always mean what you’d think it should. Medals are part of the “rewarding our friends” system and are not evidence of the good works listed on the citation.
To some extent I agree with you, but I know of no Croatian Ustashe, Bosnian Muslim SS or Kosovo Albanian SS member similarly honoured.
Mihailovic’s daughter finally received the award on behalf of her father in 2005 so the USA had some 60 years to research and decide whether Mihailovic was a Nazi collaborator as accused by Tito’s communists or not.
Take into account also that there was a bounty placed on Mihailovic by the Germans equal to the one placed on Tito.
The reason is right there in the citation.
“.. Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control..”.
” …contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory.”
It’s all to do with usefulness to the Empire, not moral behaviour by human standards. Most awards to high level military would be in this category. (As distinct from bravery medals to lower ranks, which would be about 99.9% well deserved).
True about the usefulness to Empire, but that does not necessarily preclude genuine moral merit considering the alternative at the time.
The citation refers to Mihailovic’s forces rescuing and sheltering some 500 American airmen until they could be airlifted to safety in Operation Halyard; http://www.amazon.com/The-Forgotten-500-Greatest-Mission/dp/0451224957
Of course the ordinary Serbs who hid those airmen in their homes are just as deserving of the commendation.
Viktor Novak was not a “former Croatian priest”, but a Yugoslav historian and professor. In fact he was quite a mixed bag. According to the wikipedia entry:
Historian Ivan Muzic writes that Novak’s work Antologija, written during the time of the Royal Dictatorship was “an attempt ‘to justify a newly conceived myth of a three-tribed nation and its ostensible united national consciousness which dates to the sixth century'”.
Also he was one of the signatories of the Appeal of the collaborating [with the Nazis] regime calling for the Serbs to fight against the “criminal” Partisans.
“was arrested for being a mason”
After WW2 he became a member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts and “was made head of the Department for Social Sciences of the Academy”.
All in all he seems to have done very well for himself in every kind of political regime, which is pretty unusual for the troubled times in which he lived.
This text is spot on. I grew up in Serbia decades ago, moved abroad and then lived there for few years again just recently.
What I observed, besides a changed country to the point of being unrecognizable, is that, as some of my Serbian friends tell me – “Half the Serbia left, and that was the better half!”.
During Communism, there was corruption but at least it was not acceptable. So, some people got rich, some got caught.
Today, corruption is the modus operandi without the elements of shame or even law. This all transpired during the fall of communism and economic devastation during the wars in the Balkans, mostly thanks to the economic sanctions which destroyed legit businesses and gave rise to local mafia. Then came the western powers to harness the mafia for their own purposes.
This has already happened in Russia, during Yeltsin and we all know how Russian’s lived during those times, as much as west would like us to forget.
The only correction I would add is that most “foreign aid” is not meant to really help anyone except – foreigners. If the aid is given to a foreign company with an office in Serbia, which is in direct competition with a domestic company, the domestic one will be destroyed, as they cannot compete with unlimited resources of a western agency. Similarly, if domestic company applies for aid to export, they will be ignored, while the one that applies for aid to import will be helped. And that’s just on the surface; the rabbit hole goes deeper than that.
But, all in all, it is up to Serbian people to stop playing power games with each other and understand the importance of their own old saying that “Only unity saves the Serbs”. So far they have not learned to apply that in real life.
“But, all in all, it is up to Serbian people to stop playing power games with each other”
this sentence is the key here. I have found those in power is Serbia to be infantile in their interactions with each other. In Serbia, it is as if someone allowed a bunch of pre-schoolers with no parental guidance to run the country.
Great article, by the way.
It’s true about “we love Russia, give me money”. Serbia is run by a bunch of bandits.
First of all I would like to say that I respect Mr. Pravosudov and I liked his articles on Russian – Serbian relations. He takes more critical and realistic stance on this topic and doesn’t like to romanticize it like some others do. But I also see a few flaws in his writings and a few contradictions.
For example: He clearly states that he is aware of the fact that Serbian political elite is fully western controlled and that many of them have close ties with western intelligence services. He also says: “Serbia as a highly developed, strong country – the Western countries do not need.” But then at the same time he is surprised that Serbia isn’t trying to reach out to Russia for investments and joint projects.
Do you see the contradiction here? Head of our Ministry of Energy and Development is also a member of Trilateral commission for Europe (known as the “East-West bridge”) and she was put there for sole purpose of blocking any and all cooperation with Russia and now allowing Russian money to get here. Dependance on Russian natural gas had to be cut even if there was no alternative. The goal of our political puppet elite is to NOT allow Russia to gain any foothold in country or gain any geopolitical leverage. So, how does he expect this: “Serbia needs to advertise in the Russian media, to attract investment from Russia” The very people that would have to “attract” Russian investments are the ones that are controlled by the west that does not want “Serbia as a highly developed, strong country”.
Then as another poster here said, I too never heard those sayings about Sofia here. Or “We like Russia, give us money”. I am sure that people like that do exist here, just like there are con-man in every single country on planet. But I doubt that this is “often” and that “many” ask for it like it is said in the article. If this is the case Mr. Pravosudov should name people that asked for money in turn for friendship. So please, names and surnames for those that tried to sell their “friendship”. This can be very useful because it will help to see who is “fake” and who is “real” in our patriotic opposition.
He is right about claiming that Serbs can’t find common language among themselves. No objections here. This is nothing new, go thousand years back and you will see Serbs killing Serbs in fight for power. Today it is even more visible as there are those that want to use this “trait” among Serbs even more. We witnessed many disinfo campaigns to pit one patriotic block against another.
Next thing: who controls the information controls the population. Not a single voice of opposition can be heard anywhere in the media here. Just look up how much of our media is held by Gen. David Petraeus. (And do some research on this guy). Every TV station with big enough coverage, every radio station and majority of printed newspapers are ultra pro-western and anti-russian. (one recent exception is radio Sputnik that started broadcasting. But they didn’t even write it on Sputnik’s web site! I am still trying to find out what frequency they are!!!!!)
These are almost ‘laboratory like’ conditions here. And I think that argument that Russia should’ve been involved more in trying to reach out to the audience is LEGIT. He says – there Internet, so everyone can find info – this is just ignorant.
So, taking a shot at Serbs for not supporting other options is immature. Democracy, especially here, is fake as $3 bill. Who is chosen by the media and who has the most money for the campaign will win. It is like this in every democracy, so why Serbia would be any different?
But there is something that really struck me hard. This:
“It seems that the bombing of 1999 broke the Serbs. They fear a repeat of this nightmare. Today, Russia is testing the pressure of Western sanctions, like Serbia recently did. Russia will continue to fight for her freedom, because we still have a lot of people who prefer to die fighting than to live on their knees. Are there such people in Serbia? The answer to this question can only be answered by the Serbs themselves.”
This passage is very provocative to me. For anyone having even basic understanding of history of Europe and Balkans it is clear that NO ONE EVER bled more for freedom and for sovereignty of their country than Serbs. YES, this includes Russians too.
It is very unrealistic to compare how nation of 143 million people act in geopolitical arena and how a nation of 7,2 million acts.
And no we are not scared even from the NATO as we showed that in 1999. even when strength ration was at least 600:1. But expecting that Serbia will somehow alone end the reign of strongest empire in the history of the world is just ridiculous. (or maybe it isn’t – ask Austro-Hungarians ;)
Now to add this too:
Everyone with little common sense must realize that there can be no independent foreign policy without a strong army that can back it up. THIS IS A FACT.
Now know this – Serbia didn’t get a single peace of military equipment in decades. what we had in the 70s and 80s we used in ’99. and what we had in ’99 we still use. We waited for that S300 to arrive but it didn’t. I don’t blame Russians for it – I blame their traitorous and servile administration at the time.
BUT even concerning what I said previously:
– Serbia is the only European country that didn’t turn her back on Russia despite the pressure from both Brussels and Washington
– Serbia invited Vladimir Putin to celebrate liberation from Nazis together even despite every single western leader protesting
– Serbia said no to sanctions and refused to implement them despite the pressure from the west
– Serbia is the ONLY European country that voted FOR Russian declaration in UN regarding condemnation of Neo-nazi groups
– All western leaders chickened out when threatened not to attend the Victory day parade in Moscow on May 9th. Serbia didn’t.
– Not only that Serbian officials will attend it, but our army will march too.
– Serbia is the only country in Europe that had (and will still have in future) military drills with Russia during the west-Russia divide
These are just some of the events I could get right off the bat as I type this and this is just the recent stuff. If I am to dig deeper I would end up typing all night.
So, it is still clear that even under the boot of the west Serbia still has more sovereignty that all other European countries. Even if some of them are many times more militarily powerful.
It is not cowardice that is the reason of us not openly resisting western influence, it is just the pointlessness of the situation.
What is the point of everybody here going for “the one last charge” against the Empire’s hordes? Just so that some dude on the Internet say: “Oh, these Serbs sure have some balls!”
Here is the best example on this: We all seen that Crimea was overwhelmingly pro-russian. More so than Serbia is. And even here THERE WAS NO CHANCE that Crimeans would be able to do everything by themselves without Russian intervention. And Crimea is right in Russia’s backyard. And even now there are regions close to Russia’s border that suffer and have their population terrorized and nothing is being done. They won’t rise and revolt as they are afraid that Russia won’t be there to help them. On the other hand, as soon as official Russia would say: we are sending our army to intervene in Ukraine and stop the bloodshed and repression by hunta, IMMEDIATELY many would rise up and support it.
Now Serbia is in much dire situation than even those regions there. We are much further deep behind enemy lines and no land or sea corridor and be made. There’s also no access to international waters. So everything would play out like that time when we waited for S300…
There is much more stuff I could write on this as Mr Pravosudov touched many complex topics there, but my post is already too long and probably no one will even read it….
Actually I read every line of your post and have to say that I would not change anything in your post.
The irony of the matter is that Serbia such as it is in its current sorry state is probably the closest to the semblance of the sovereignty on the whole of the European continent.
Even our traitors in charge have to watch their back as even they are afraid of the Serbian people’s slumber lest they wake them up due to overreach in treason.
Indeed, even the bought for betrayal of the elites has its limits in Serbia.
Certainly makes many from the West very frustrated declaring on mainstream media that Serbs have split personality since their heart is with Russia but their heads are with the West.
Personally, I considered that to be the most flagrant admission by the Western representative of how futile the fight is in order to achieve the win of hearts and minds of the Serbs.
Think about this: even Russia with all it’s power is still unable to purge it’s 5th column. With all secret services and army at his command Putin still can’t wrestle the power from their arms. Sure, russian sovereignists hold more power now (I think that Saker or someone else rated this something like; eurasian souverenists – atlantist integrationists; 60%-40% or 70%-30%)
Now compare this to Serbia:
– there is no modern army to speak of
– no strategic missile deterrent capability
– both FBI and CIA have their regional offices here
– NATOs ‘center for connection’ (or something like that) is on the same floor as our Ministry of Defense, in the same building
– just a while ago, our MoD asked NATO country (I think it was Norway) to digitalize/catalogue all of our military archives in new computer systems
– the said computers systems were donated by the USA
I probably skipped some things, but even with this it is clear that there are ZERO secrets between us and NATO. Even if our military would want it, it is impossible. Everything we know, NATO knows first. So our ratio would be: 99%-1% in their favour.
Now it should be clear that you can’t just shake this off in a day and undo all of it that was happening since year 2000. If that was the option – it would have to be done in a military coup d’état style. Like the Yemenis tried to oust Empire’s puppet government. This would in turn cause them to react same as they did in Yemen.
Why do I say that west would act militarily if we try to oust the regime and purge the intelligence agencies? Because they have done it countless times already. They are backing their foreign policy with military force. In fact, as I type this, NATO (USA) is involved in several such interventions around the globe. Just to grease it up a little bit where foreign policy came to a halt.
About the ‘split-personality’ incident you mentioned:
Yes, exactly. Foul-mouthed American ambassador Kirbi showed us just a week ago that they are feeling very frustrated. In fact, I can completely understand him. Just the sheer amount of money that went in this little country for the purpose of “changing the consciousness” and teaching of benefits of Euro-atlantic integrations is enough to make a small mountain of $1 bills.
Just recently I tried to find out approximately just how much did they spent on their 20+ years of psychological warfare. I dare to say that per-capita expenses that they had in Serbia are greater than in any other country. Western funded NGOs are counted in thousands. Just the initiative called REKOM gathers some 1900+ NGOs under their umbrella. And almost without exception they all propagate anti-serbian and anti-russian values and praise the glorious west.
So having him calling us schizophrenic because our heart lies in the east is no surprise…
again in full agreement and nothing to add or subtract;
almost no fun when two serbs are in full agreement…
Hehe, indeed… We should fight over something! :)
Yup, read all of it.
I have read it. Thank You for sharing this ! Very complex situation and even interesting. Greetings from Scandinavia.
Sounds incredible – but is true. The ZioNazis from Kiev demand from Serbia to punish Serbian volunteers fighting for the liberation of Novorussia – and the Serbian quisling leaders promise they will oblige.
The report of the Strategic Culture Foundation about it is in the 15 April 2015 article Lustration without borders, or “Serbian padded coat” by Maria Voinova,
On 13 April, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and Prime Minister of Serbia Aleksandar Vucic spoke on the phone. The press service of the Ukrainian president which reported the event, revealed also the content of the conversation, immediately stirring up social networks. Poroshenko demanded from Vucic punishment for Serbian volunteers fighting in the Donbass.
“The President of Ukraine called on Serbia to strengthen criminal liability for the participation of its citizens in illegal armed groups in Donbass. Aleksandar Vucic ascertained that it was exactly this approach to which Serbia shall adhere in regards to the mercenaries”, – stated the Ukrainian press release. Such pressure of Kiev on Belgrade was unthinkable just a couple of years ago.
The rest of the good size article provides many interesting facts.
(Use the excellent Yandex translator https://translate.yandex.com/translate .)
Aleksandar Vucic will do anything to stay in power. I mean anything. He did voted in UN against whitewashing of nazism but he also discontinued cooperation with Russian ministry of Emergency (i think that is the name) that helped us with recent floodings.
He would gladly voted in line with US in UN. But majority of population symphatyze with Russia and their people. So he did what he had to stay in power. But behind the curtain of almost total media blockade that did not stop him to sabotage at every opportunity Serbia-Russia cooperation. When you see him openly breaking ties with Russia you will know that s…it is going to hit the fan. Because his handlers do not care for his longterm staying in power.
Canadians got Harper. Germans Merkel. Australians Abbot. And we,unfortunately,have Aleksandar Vucic.
The Saker has often talked about the role of Putin in the resurrection of Russia. Before Putin Russia was controlled by the West through their Oligarchs. This situation has changed somewhat in Russia but not in the Ukraine or in Serbia. Serbia needs its own Putin. The Serbian people desperately want that person to come and they will rally and do what they need to do when he arrives. But until he arrives they are left with Serbian versions of Yeltsin.
Pravosudov is on the payroll of Gazprom, same company which shamelessly grabbed NIS, Serbian State oil co., in a manner similar to Yeltsin era privatizations in Russia, and proceeded to seriously deplete Serbia’s oil reserves by pumping harder than ever in order to boost short term profits. All this while paying the lowest mining tax in the world to Serbia.
All this was done by lyingly promising to “divert” Southstream so that it passes through Serbia. Oh, and yes, the Gazprom crew with the help of friends in Russian Gov’t manage to extract from Serbia alone that the local Southstream joint-venture is located in Lichtenstein in lieu of Serbia for easier skimming of profits and split 51% in favor of Gazprom (all other countries have JVs 50-50, and are located locally).
Now that the Serbian Gov’t very timidly tries to tax Gazprom at least to an acceptable level all of the sudden, Serbs are weak and have no future?!? And this gov’t are traitors?! Traitors to whom? Gazprom or Serbian people?
Coming from corrupt thieves who stole and are still stealing from both Serbians and Russians, this appeal to Serbs to reject the West’s “corrupt” capitalism (little Norway invested 3x more at fair prices in Serbia and helped Serbia 20x more) embrace Russia’s “generosity” is self serving hypocrisy of paid propagandists whose only aim is to fill their own pockets with other people’s money.
Serbian people are rational and see through this. They like Russians, but they dislike thieving bullies, and no amount of PR or propaganda (Russian gov’t has enormous network of paid and non-paid agents in Serbia, do not be naive) will change this.
I don’t understand your accusation of Gazprom “lyingly promising to divert South Stream so that it passes through Serbia”.
Where else would it pass after Bulgaria?
Through Romania? Hardly a friend of Russia’s.
Through Macedonia – Kosovo – Albania- Montenegro -Croatia?
Mostly NATO sycophants along that route too . .
And do you really think a Western oil company would have paid any more for NIS than Gazprom did?
Because in any case it’s unlikely that NIS would have remained Serbian owned.
Even natural springs have been sold off to Coca Cola Amatil including exclusive bottling rights for kilometres of radius.
The bully here is not Gazprom but the EU at the prompting of the USA.
The short answer to your question is yes, many regional and international companies would pay much more, but Gazprom also would pay much more had it been a competitive tender procedure and not a corrupt under the table deal between those horrible Serbian elites and naive heroic Pravosudov’s and maybe even your paymaster Gazprom, seconded by Shoigu, then as now Russian minister.
NIS made Eur 400 million profits the year Gazprom bought a 51% controlling stake for … Eur 400 million. After this steal of the deal, Russian Gov’t lobbied against raising the mining tax on produced oil in NIS wells which is the lowest in the world at 4% (in Russia itself it is 40%). More importantly, Gazprom increased production of NIS wells (a precious Serbian national resource) reducing thus their reserves. In oil wells you need to carefully pump oil so as not to deplete the reserves, I.e. If you pump 10 barrels a day you have 1000 barrels of reserves, if you pump 30 barrels you only have 100 of reserves, because of the pressure and water in the field. This has been done to increase short term profits of Gazprom and bonuses of a handful of Russian executives.
This is not brotherly behavior! This is how people behave in enemy territory. There is absolutely no example of such behavior by any European company in Serbia. Yet, everybody shrieks against western investment as if it is a sort of occupation, against western intelligence agencies meddling in Serbian affairs, and nobody mentions Russian Gov’t meddling, which is horrible, as the example of NIS proves.
Of course, it would be stupid to blame the whole Russian nation for it. But this horrendous article by Pracosudov, a paid lobbyist of Gazprom, is doing exactly this in inverse: accusing Serbs for not voting for apparently pro-Russian and in fact pro-Gazprom political parties.
This article is not about freedom or future of Serbia, it is about keeping corrupt Gazprom stealing and floundering Serbian resources.
Let me make something clear to you: I like Russia and Russians, but I think that the arrogant corrupt elites they have are horrible. As in general I do not believe that “the czar or comrade Staline is not aware” of massive injustice and corruption, I include the Russian leadership in these corrupt and criminal elites. I have no sympathy for them at all.
Especially when they dare question the future of my truly great and admirable Serbian nation who not only saved them in WWI (2 million White Russian refugees that no country allowed to disembark from boats fleeing Bolsheviks, except the Serbs, whose brave king was the very last head of State in the world to recognize SSSR, only in the 30-ies), in WWII (Gen. Mihailovic, against all odds and the order of his Gov’t refused to lay down weapons and singlehandedly delayed the German operation Barbarossa for a month or two, allowing Soviet Union not to lose the war), but also faced the NATO and the West in the 90-ies, showing the Russians the way, while the latter were busy prostituting themselves to the very same West for bubble-gums and blue jeans.
So now these whores want to lecture us?!?
Hence, Saker, be more careful about what you publish. You are busy and tired I get it. However, shitting on Serbia on account of Gazprom is not smart.
You see how easily distracted I got and did not answer you q re. Southstream. By thinking that Russia puts it’s pipelines only through “friends” shows your utter naïveté. By implication you would assume Turkey, a NATO cornerstone country, Islamic and supporting Isis and fighting Asad, is more a “friend” to Russia than orthodox Romania?
Russia is perfectly cynical on the international arena, no different to the US and EU. It uses it’s gas monopoly in Europe as a political power tool. Certainly with Serbia it has no brotherly behavior, even though it says it does (getting 51% of the Serbian SS JV, while all other countries have 50-50, shows the true face of Gazprom and Russian Gov’t towards Serbia, and the Lichtenstein location of its HQ aside from being an insult is thieving maneuver allowing Gazprom officials to further steal from Serbia).
The major argument for the huge precedent of allowing Gazprom take over NIS and hugely valuable gas storage in Banatski Dvor is that in return Russia will shoot down the recognition of Kosovo in the UN, and allow South stream to go through Serbia with the main pipe, not a branch, so that Serbia could collect 200 m yearly in transit fees for gas destined to markets further down the stream. In other words this was a very very shady proposal, bordering blackmail. I still remember minister Shoigu getting insulted at even mentioning improving the the purchase price of 400m for 51% of NIS.
These were just initial lies about Southstream which is full of lies.
I am not sure we grasp the whole issue.
The simplistic explanation that Europe shattered Southstream under the diktat of the US, and that Russians are the victims does not satisfy me.
For example, here is a little known fact: lead time for producing the share quantity of steel pipes for SS is 5+ years. Why did the production of the pipes never start? Europe could not prevent this, and this alone tells me that the Russians themselves never wanted SS. There is much more in SS than meets the eye.
you have details there we don’t see much in English media. Can you put a couple of links with details of some of those deals? don’t have to be in English, I can translate them once I have them, but I’m not able to search for them.
Especially changes to the taxation and the investments by Norway are of interest to me, if you could help out please.
I will try, even though I am not sure I will have time for it. Much of the media in Serbia has been muffled by enormous PR budgets of Gazprom and the scary hand of Russian gov’t – the very same people who claim do not have money like the West, according to Pravosudov. Hence, try to get the figures and statistics on Serbian Govt web pages directly. I am sure if you google you will find all the details about NIS transaction, also Norwegian Embassy should list all the investments and grants, as would Russian embassy if they made any. Hence you can compare for yourself.
Right now you can google and find something about the currently ongoing brotherly behaviour by Russia: unwillingness to let Fiat 500L produced in Serbia be imported custom-free to Russia, requiring and negotiating like a …”zionist” (as some members of Saker community would say) for what they get in return, like those great Russian brothers always do (support for Kosovo in SC of UN costed Serbia dearly, in hard cash).
“Russia is testing the pressure of Western sanctions, like Serbia recently did. Russia will continue to fight for her freedom, because we still have a lot of people who prefer to die fighting than to live on their knees.”
Seems he is ignoring the fact that Russia is not vulnerable to being bombed 24/7 by several NATO countries for 2.5 months.
Russia has nukes and can hit back – the cowards in the west only bomb much small countries – and notice even then the U.S. has to have partners and won’t go it alone.
He also leave out Serbia doesn’t have the anti-aircraft defense at even 0.1% of what Russia has, and that Russia wouldn’t even deliver Serbia any S-300’s it had ordered before the war. Even the Belorussian president was willing to have them flown in to Serbia at great risk (though Milosevic didn’t believe that NATO would bomb Serbia, he was foolishly optimistic).
Also Russian arms merchants were selling huge quantities of weapons for the Croats and Bosnian Muslims. This is documented in a report by Slovenian journalists, as their country was the major middleman in the procuring and transferring of arms for the Bosnian Muslims.
There was even a Croatian island expressly used for deliveries of Russian weapons by aircraft – this was noted by Scottish mercenary John McPhee, who fought with the Croatian Special Forces and the HVO during the war in BiH.
So Russia was profiting off the killing of Serbs, and yet it complains if Serbs ask for a bit of money to help repair their country.
Russia did not come into Serbia and help with the rebuilding after the bombing.
Russia also forgave countries like Afghanistan several billions worth of debt, but I haven’t seen Russia forgive Serbia a dime.
Russia also threatened to cut off gas to Serbia just before the elections in which Milosevic was illegally overthrown – ballot boxes were burned by Otpor during the run-off, so no one knows if he would have won or not.
And how many of those Russian arms merchants who sold to the Croats and Bosnian Muslims were actually ethnic Russians?
One of the alleged dealers, Alexander Radkin Zhukov founder of Sintez UK, is described by Wikipedia as an Orthodox Christian philanthropist who gives generously to the Russian Orthodox Church.
His daughter however attended a jewish school and is now married to business tycoon and Chelsea Football Club owner Roman Abramovich.
A cynic might compare such philanthropy to Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s financing of a private orphanage while dodging tax in figures the government could finance hundreds of orphanages with.
Others mentioned in the investigation include London banker Mark Garber and fellow Russian philanthropists Leonid Lebedev and Yevgeny Marchuk.
I was looking up an old quote from a Serb who posted on Andy Wilcoxson’s old forum (Andy is a pro-Serb American who followed Milosevic’s trial, as well as others at the ICTY), and I found it within a twitter post:
#Putin fines #Serbia by reducing gas flow http://tinyurl.com/mu4fk3s #Russia “Woe betide the man fed by the Greeks & defended by the #Russians”
Divide and conquer, freedumb and dumbocracy, modus operandi of the imperia Americana.
Cetniks and Ustasa together pic.
Charles de Gaulle and U.S. president Harry Truman awarded Draža Mihajlović with military honours. While Nazis put high bounty on his head.
To me, this is good enough proof that he and his guys were anti fascists! ;)
“The number of Chetnik victims of genocide among Croatians and Bosniaks during the war from 1941 to 1945 has not yet been confirmed. The newest demographic research suggests that the possible exact number of casualties on NDH territory is 200,000 Croats and 100,000 Bosniaks. These numbers refer to those killed. According to V. Zerjavic, of this number, 32,000 Croatians (20,000 in Croatia and 12,000 in Bosnia) and 33,000 Bosniaks were victims of the Chetniks.31 To many, Zerjavic`s number appears too small, especially due to larger estimates in some sources and literature. It might be that this is possible, until future research, which is now being conducted, establishes concrete numerical data for these Chetnik genocidal crimes.”
:The Chetnik movement did not fulfill its genocidal intentions because it did not possess enough military units.The main reason was the self-organized defense and armed opposition of the Croatian and Bosniak people, which protected them from even more tragic Chetnik crimes in many places and brought about their military defeat.”
I’m from Bulgaria and the country is slowly dying. I believe it will disappear at the middle of the century. The western controlled media is urging the population, much of it living in poverty, to take migrants from Africa and the Middle East, to take everyone who wants to enter.
Joining EU and NATO will not fix Serbia’s problems, as you can see the EU did not fix Bulgaria or Greece. If anything, things got worse.
Joining an alliance with different (western) culture is a poison that will kill you, it will destroy your culture and slowly ethnically cleanse you.
I found the website “Espresso Stalinist” very interesting! The blogger of that site clearly states he is a Marxist- Lenist.
I am wondering if “Espresso Stalinist”, due to his/her sympathies with the Communist cause did not take on board some elements of the Tito’s Communist’s smear campaign against the Chetniks.
Both Chetnik and Communists fought each other for power in Serbia. The Communist won, and had Mihailovic executed.
Mihailovic was quite well regarded within the royalist elements in Serbia, so the Communists framed him and attributed various atrocities to him (and the Chetniks) in order to justify elimination and subsequent Communist rule.
While I am sure that the Chetniks committed atrocities, I wonder about the authenticity of some the documents and photos shown by “Espresso Stalinist”, for the reason mentioned above.
Perhaps some history amateur reading this blog this can provide more information on the power struggle between the Communists and the Chetniks…?
“Espresso Stalinist” does a good job of explaining the Ustasa crimes quite well so not sure where you got this idea that Chetniks and the Ustasa are “two sides of the same coin”…
I expressed the same doubts in one of my previous comments. It is unrealistic to use just communist sources about Cetnik movements. Or about any faction that opposed the communists.
I am sure if you went to Ukrainian ministry of Defense and asked about the ‘russian aggression’ you would get a huuuuuge pile of ‘authentic documents’ that ‘prove’ the russian invasion that has taken place…
Yet again you’re quoting the nonsense from that very shady source. One is certain, the content is utter bulls*it, not even worth discussing. Even half-way knowlegable people will laugh when reading that.
It’s absolutely the same as all those nazi-revisionists claiming that Hitler was the good guy who was attacked by the Poles. Or those Ukrainian crazies claiming that in WW2, Ukraine was saved from the Sowiets thanks to nazi germany. Just crazy.
Thank you for your cited source.
Something to look into.
However, in the world of falsified history and interest infested biases along with one’s own leaning toward certain beliefs or agendas no source should be taken at its face value.
I would, nonetheless, espouse the general statement of the cited source that the exact numbers of atrocities were not established yet.
Indeed, the same would hold true for the victims of various concentration camps in the Independent State of Croatia.
The number of victims varies from at least 700,000 up to well over a million.
The official agenda of the Communist regime of former Yugoslavia made sure that victims be buried and forgotten while dictating the equalization of Ustashe and Chetniks.
Ustashe were fascists with ethnic cleansing agenda and perpetrated the official policy of the Fascist state of Croatia, namely convert 1/3 of Serbs, kill one third and expel the remaining third.
NDH was declared on april 10th 1941 and immediately became busy with their declared state policy.
On the other hand, the Chetniks were royalists and anti fascist. They started to organize almost immediately after the declaration of the NDH.
Action, reaction, solution.
Any civil war is the dirtiest business imaginable.
All victims are the same.
Or, at least should be, though we are all witnessing the fact that such is not the case in the eyes of all.
As the war went on, the Chetniks were denied support by the Allies – the main culprits who brought this about were 4 men, British agents who were operating from Cairo, Egypt and were communists thus, partial to Tito’s partisans.
Just how reliable is the photo evidence of alleged Ustasha and Chetnik together?
I know first hand accounts concerning a village of Vranic, in the Belgrade region.
Many killed by Chetniks. Turns out that in fact those were partisans who wore the uniforms which would incriminate Chetniks.
Like I said civil war is dirty business and breeding ground for all kinds of false flags.
Since at least WWII there was a tendency to minimize Croatian atrocities and to maximize Serbian atrocities. The trend has reached its hysterical climax during the ’90s civil war.
How to overcome divide and rule tactic perpetually imposed by Western powers & Vatican?
Forgiveness seems to be the only path.
This path has to be paved in full truth for all concerned.
How realistic would this be?
An anthropologist Anthony Smith has developed a theory that, in my humble opinion, would be apt to explain well the attitude of Croats toward Serbs and Ukranians toward Russians.
Very simplified explanation of this theory states that in order for one to establish their own separate identity from the common source, it needs to negate, deny its source identity.
Bosniaks of today are Serbs who converted to Islam.
Large percentage of Croats are Serbs who converted to Catholicism.
If one were to examine the genealogy of the last names among today’s Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs it would be found that they stem from the same source.
Zealot converts had to be the inspiration for the saying “More Catholic than the Pope”.
Converts’ denial comes in different shapes and forms – but the undercurrent is that the mirror image of who they were before is not the image they are comfortable looking at.
Extreme expression of the above is genocidial intent or extermination of the group they once were part of.
The psychology of the converts would be to always feel threatened by the group that they alienated themselves from, while the group that kept the status quo would feel somewhat of contempt for the converts.
For forgiveness full mutual acceptance is imperative.
Not easy to achieve in view of the psychological issues involved.
Meanwhile, the common enemy never stops exploiting the results of divide et impera.
Indeed, the truth will set us free.
Very tall order that must not be given up on ever!
The crucial difference between the Chetniks and the Ustashe was that the Chetniks (or other Serbian formations before and during WWII) did not have genocide against other people in Yugoslavia as part of their official policy, while the Ustashe did have genocide as part of their policy and then proceeded to execute it when they came into power.
I am not disputing there were mass killings on every side; in a messy civil war combined with a class war combined with a global war, those are unavoidable and were often simple acts of revenge. But let’s understand a difference between planned extermination of entire populations and opportunistic “they burned my village so I’m going to burn their village”-type war crimes.
“The main reason was the self-organized defense and armed opposition of the Croatian and Bosniak people, which protected them from even more tragic Chetnik crimes in many places and brought about their military defeat”
Sure, lets just forget about the nearly 600,000 well equipped Axis troops roaming the country . .
It’s a wonder that relatively poorly armed Chetnik formations, even if so intent, had the time and opportunity to kill so many Croat and Bosnian Muslim civilians when so many enemies including even the Partisans were hunting for them.
Does the author provide any documentary evidence to support his claim that the Chetniks had genocidal plans?
I am curious if Mordechai Vanunu is the brave person that exposed Israel’s nuclear bomb program and spent many years in prison for that. If it is, let me express my deep respect for his attitude.
That is indeed the name of a person that exposed the nuke program, but I doubt that it is really *him* that post on this site.
Yeah, Mordechai Vanunu my foot … if that’s him then I’m Sir Isaac Newton… :-)
It’s a nick, I chose a while ago to raise zionist ire, with irony. Get over it.
It is a disappointing article because it is superficial! In democracy doesn’t win justice, truth, willingness to common wealth but dollars. Rubles have difficulties to understand that, they still dream about election process in democracy as something good for everybody what they adopted successfully, but Yeltsin came relatively directly, Putin even more directly, Medvedev shouldn’t be even mentioned.
After 10 years after first real democratic election in Russia, Rubles will argue if Moscow belongs to Kazakhstan or Belarus … We were fighting against VatikaNato for 10 years and after that we were beaten by dollars (betrayals everywhere), similarly like Russians were destroyed during IWW. After became anti christianic state for 70 years it is now Rubles state wondering where are christian attitude in the world.
Are they really alone on that holy mission. They are saying … Look for the Serbia! Our brothers are on the knees, shame on them! Hey Serbs, you have democratic opportunity to vote for good leaders don’t be hypocritical. Yes we know that your present leaders were patriotic but try again, don’t believe to the west but believe to their democracy. Look at ugarians (bulgarians) they occupied your country, they use your language, they made atrocities to you ..learn from them! your farmeres should analyse their benefits from EU and vote differently, .. lift up education of your farmers!
I will conclude with what is really scary. Scary is Rubles that are not aware what is the problem and how to overcome it. During that time brothers and sisters are ill, waiting, crying and dying.
Синиша and Serbian Girl,
I have posted my sources. Where are yours showing only 3000 Croatians killed by Cetniks?
These attitudes on both sides are preventing any starting point to genuine forgiveness and reconciliation between the parties.
Both claim to believe in Christ, yet their thoughts, beliefs and actions are satanic. This is the hypocrisy of many who call themselves Christians. Remember, all will be judged in the end.
It was and is Slavs killing Slavs, and the puppet masters are enjoying it.
At that time Tito’s (Communist Partisans) were the sanest of the bunch, not angels however.
What you posted were some comedy articles from some crazy zealot, nothing that may be described as a “source”. There is no real need to counter such obviously imagined nonsense, such discussions are completely useless and only diversions.
(Besides, there is a good sign in the Internet Zoo: “Do not feed the trolls”)
Because I do not agree with you while posting my sources I am a troll?
Good luck with that and cau.
What I am trying to say is we slavs and the south slavs should begin to find a point to reconciliation and forgiveness as Christ Taught.
The atrocities were large in number on both sides yet the Croats were over the top as they had support of Nazi Germany as the token puppet regime, just like Tiso in WW2 Slovakia.
What is truly “useless” is the opposite and never forgiving, and although it is difficult, forgiveness is a must!
slavs against slavs???
it was Serbs against Avars and romancatholics
So the Croatians are not slavs but Roman Catholics?
These types of beliefs are where the atrocities originated from, on both sides.
It is not belief but fact. Saying it was slavs against slavs has no meaning, similary to: it was human against human. It is manipulative state.
What you posted here shows that your brain is a manipulative(ed) state.
I dont give a s**t.
When it comes hard, Serbia has no chance .
Russia will talk and wont be able to help.
Serbia has no gateway to oceans so its not possible to trade with other nations in case of sanctions.
I remember 1999 there where serbs in moscow almost begging for 5. Generation MIGs and S300 systems… nothing happends. At this time Russia had depts to Yugoslavia.
They told Jelzin “Help us and you will save yourself. The Ukraine will be next”
The greatest fail of Putin was to not kill Jelzin. And now what should serbia do ? Lose even more Land ?
For what? Russian Geopoltics ?
Russia lost Serbia and the serbian People 1999.
I think the best to do:
Join the EU and wait till it collapse.
Then get on the winners side.
Actually it was Milosevic’s clique first that lost the rest of the Serbs in Bosnia, Croatia etc. by licking up to the west instead of truly helping the rest.
Let alone that he declined the prior offer from Croatia, which was to make a looser confederation instead of the centralized communist state.
But then I dunno if that would have helped, maybe the empire would have just directly bombed us away like they did in Lybia.
“I think the best to do:
Join the EU and wait till it collapse.
Then get on the winners side.”
In the mean time, Serbian nation would rot from within, and crumble into non-existence before any EU collapse actually happens. The attitude you expressed is the one of complete lack of any self-respect.
Besides, Russian geopolitics is not “their” geopolitics. It is “our” geopolitics, geopolitics of freedom-loving people, its geopolitics of respect for the dignity of diverse human communities.
Serbia history project starting, item #6 http://thesaker.is/important-saker-blog-community-news-and-various-requests-for-assistance/
Of course you give a sh*t otherwise you would not be here reading and contributing.
1999 bombing took place at precise time when Russia was at its weakest and when the residents in Kremlin were the same type of stooges that sit in Serbian government currently.
Serbia can exist only as long Russia is healthy and strong.
This is an unwritten law enforced by those who orchestrate most trouble in various regions of the world.
I think this is so obvious and almost does not need to be reiterated.
Russia did not lose Serbian people in 1999 and Serbia – the proof is all around you.
Serbs have survived much darker periods of history.
Indeed, many suffer from the acute self respect in Serbia these days, but like a flu it will go away and health will be restored.
Mordechai, I do not know the exact number of Chetnik victims during WWII. My point was to beware of using Communist data to attribute atrocities to the Chetniks.
But even we assume the numbers from your source “Espressostalinist.com” are correct, the victims of Chetniks are a fraction compared to those of the Croatian Ustasa.
In my opinion, Ustasa and Cetniks were NOT “two sides of the same coin”. I believe the Ustasa were far worse. I believe the historical data supports this.
Yes. Hi , I agree. The ustasa were horrendous with more victims.
Yet reconciliation between the south slavs is a must and there has to be a starting point of forgiveness, like Christ taught.
This is exact thing that communists claimed : “reconciliation is a must” and therefore they have suppressed the fact about Ustase massacres in order to “make us all get along again”. They also used your fake version of history: Ustase = Cetniks.
This, like I said before is a revision of history and it served only to have a fake argument – ‘you are all one and the same, now kiss each other and let Tito be a dictator to rule you all’.
I never tried to hide the fact that civilians were killed by Cetniks. Both Croat and Bosniak civilians were killed. But the numbers you provided (some hundreds of thousands) are BS and nothing more…
Serbia history project starting, item #6 http://thesaker.is/important-saker-blog-community-news-and-various-requests-for-assistance/
Thanks. I saw the announcement.
And where are the links to prove it or the books or anything other than ‘I believe’ ?
“I often meet with the Serbs, and to be honest, many of the discussions end up with this: “We love Russia, give us money. ”
That sounds like pure bullshit. I haven’t heard anything like that from the Serbs ie begging Russia (or anyone else for that matter) for money. I presume that the author of above mainly misleading article reffers to the Serbs in general, not on particular sold off politicians. On the other hand begging someone who is perceived as powerful is typical for the Croats the eternal turncoats and bootlickers.
It is not “pure bul*%it”. It is true. The business and political “elite” of Serbia have been plundering EU donation funds and whose ever funds for a long long time my friend. And continue to do so. I am sure others do it too, but this article is about Serbia. Look at Belgrade. besides a few shiny new buildings in the shadows of wasteland dumps there is not much to show as far as progress. They ask for money to fix this and that and then keep it for themselves. That is reality in Serbia today.
You want to help Serbia? Don’t donate a single eurocent to the gangsters in power.
Ah, a croat (“live from Belgrade”) pop ups to replay to my comment and immediately regurgiates some of his gibberish. Ofcourse we want to help Serbia, by sometime in future recapturing serbian lands Krajina (and others) from illegal croatian occupation which was enabled and organised by amero-zionists and delivering just retributon for all their crimes against serbian people.
Arijec, I am a 100% pure Serb,born and bred in Belgrade. Many of my family have lost their lives in the last Balkan wars, WWII, WW I, and the early Balkan wars. Did your great grandfather lose his life at Skadar? Did your grand father walk with his mother over albania to Corfu? Did both your grand fathers and grandmothers fight the Nazis? Was your father kidnapped by CIA sponsored Albanian terrorists in Kosovo? If they were you would understand the stupidity of wars. You want to retake traditional Serb lands? You live in the past. Modern warfare is economic not military. Go to Krajina, buy some land, grow some food, package it and sell it to the Croats. That’s how you win wars today. Help yourself son, nobody is going to help you if you sit on your ass and accuse other people for your own predicament.
Ти си један обичан джабалебарош који чека да му неко нешто да за джабе. Због људи као што си ти, ова земља је једно велико говно. срам те било.
You are just an ordinary do-nothing who waits for other to give you something for free. Because of people like you, this country is one big piece of shit. Shame on you.
Mislim da sereš ko foka. I think you are 100% full of bull***t.
How about explaining where he’s wrong? bad language isn’t much proof of anything is it?
Dear mr. moderator, I think you would probably agree there isn’t any sense in exchanging “explanations” with an apparent agent provocateur or/and immature person for that matter.
Actualy I was kind of surprised (negatively) to see such lousy written article regarding Serbia on The Saker. The answer on the title of this article “Does Serbia have a future ? is in my opinion rather simple (and based on history), if Russia has a future then Serbia has also a future and vice versa.
Have you seen the Serbia History project news? item 6 here http://thesaker.is/important-saker-blog-community-news-and-various-requests-for-assistance/ The hope is to join forces to dig down to original documents from both sides (of each conflict). Meanwhile we can watch in Ukraine how stories are written, edited, twisted, to make 2 opposing narratives from the same facts. Back then nobody could see that happening. I hope you stay around for the Project.
@ Vineyard Moderator
“to dig down to original documents from both sides (of each conflict). Meanwhile we can watch in Ukraine how stories are written, edited, twisted, to make 2 opposing narratives from the same facts.”
Assuming (!) that facts from which one starts are genuine, one can manufacture two opposite conclusions in only one of two ways:
* (1) either these facts are so incomplete that one is forced to interpolate the missing ones (“connect the dots” – or in plainer language, fabricate the missing facts) in order to draw any conclusions;
* (2) or, the conclusions are arrived at through faulty reasoning.
“(1)” is a common way “professional historians” arrive at opposing conclusions. Do you really believe that amateur bloggers can do better?…
“if Russia has a future then Serbia has also a future and vice versa”..who’s immature now?….oh russia help us…..we need you…..once again…”we love Russia..give me money/weapons. Fool.
Samo ti nastavi da misliš..i to je progres.
You say that you are a “pure Serb”, born and bred in Serbia?
I find it very strange that a Serb can’t use the cyrillic script properly. You wrote “джаба/джабе” incorrectly twice, so obviously it wasn’t a simple typo. Even if you were barely literate in Serbian, you would never write (or pronounce) it the way you have. For your information, “dž” is not “дж’. The cyrillic letter you might want to familiarise yourself with when claiming to be a Serb is “џ”. Џаба. Џабе.
First, I’d like to correct some Serbian misconception: joining EU and NATO would accelerate the disintegration of Serbian nation. I am from Slovakia, and I can tell you the same happened to my country.
Second: let me tell you about a man that basically single-handedly conceived the notion of modern Slovak nation. His name was Ľudovít Štúr, and the man was exceptionally gifted individual, especially in the field of linguistics; besides that he was also a political leader of Slovaks in mid-19th century. He died relativelly young. His last work was prophetic essay called “Slavdom and the world of the future” that I strongly recommend to anyone with interest in Slavic nations’ history especially in mid-19th settings. He even correctly predicted the breakup of future Slavic federative states (the 20th century Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Soviet Union). But the most important message contained therein is: all Slavs must become Russians in order to keep their Slavic identity alive.
I myself have witnessed the spiritual death of my nation. This happened despite the fact that Slovak statehood still exists, and Slovak economy is in better shape than the economy of Serbia or Bulgaria. Yet, the Slovak nation -as an cultural and spiritual aspiration- does not exists anymore. The young generation of Slovak intelecuals, workers, village farmers, all of them equivocally say: the continuation of existence of Slovak nation has no importance for us as individuals.
I don’t really know how it happened. Certainly, the disintegration of my nation was enabled by corrupting influence of foreign-owned media, foreign-funded NGOs, domestic economic corruption, and foremostly: by lust, by consumerism and by debt. But it still does not explain the mystery of voluntary spiritual suicide of a nation.
In any case, the message of Štúr’s essay keeps resonating in my mind.
Mate prosim odkaz na jeho essay?
Thank you very much for this valuable input.
I will certainly read the essay you mention in your post.
The voluntary spiritual suicide is difficult to explain, except that it is easy to diagnose in most nations of Europe these days.
I would say that, probably the mixture of many factors and, not the least, the ones that you mentioned in your post could, to some degree, explain this voluntary spiritual suicide.
Without a root no plant can thrive and no human can truly be what creation intended it to be when they have been devoid of their basic feeling of belonging and knowing who they are.
Without authentic identity (language, culture, customs, traditions..etc.) one cannot fully develop and as such does not find true purpose in life. One is degraded to lowly materialism and reduced to biological functions mostly.
This is by design, of course, and has done a lot of damage to at least one generation in Europe, though it is obvious in the United States, too.
Probably elsewhere, though I have little first hand knowledge of other regions in the world.
The more the materialistic things are coveted the more the human spirit is dwarfed.
This is just the fact arrived at from mere observation all around.
This is more evident in the parts of Europe where Communist regimes were in force. It was brutal lack of material things that made people run for it the moment it became available.
This was just normal and to be expected. Again this was by design.
It so happens that most of these countries are also inhabited by the Slav populations.
We would have to dwell deep for at least one thousands years to arrive at underlying reasons aimed at Slavs in general.
If spiritual death is detectable all over Europe it probably is at its worst in the Slav countries as the Western civilisational concept is quite alien to the Slavs.
Being plunged into an alien world without full awareness of one’s authentic identity causes disconnect in one’s soul.
I always held that for Serbia to survive in any shape or form it is instrumental that Russia thrives.
I go as far as believing that Russia needn’t do much as long as it is strong.
In Serbia’s case the history testifies to the above.
It is comforting to know that a Slovak more than hundred years ago saw this far and proposed simple recipe for holding on to one s true identity.
The beauty of this world of ours is precisely in its diversity and differences.
It is altogether different topic why difference cannot be viewed as equal while different.
Does Serbia have a future? It depends on your viewpoint. For the empire and its vassals, Serbia’s future is enslavement and biological extinction. Apparently, they call us mini Russians. I’m afraid their vision of a Russia’s future doesn’t look any rosier.
Are there people in Serbia prepared to fight and die for their freedom? There are many (some of them are currently defending our brothers in Novorussia), but right now we badly need some help from mother Russia. We’ve been bombed with depleted uranium, satanized, imprisoned, impoverished, ostracised, brainwashed. What they couldn’t achieve with hard power, the empire and its vassals almost succeeded in doing by psychological and economic warfare which has no signs of abating.
In my circle of friends (ethnic Romanians from Eastern Serbia) there’s been a lot of criticism of the naivety of Russian politicians (including president Putin) in the wake of neocon zionist empire’s aggression on Serbia, and later Iraq and Libya. By constantly being on the defensive, Russia is not going to be in the position to help any other friendly nation like Serbia in its battle of pulling out from the claws of the neocon zionist empire.
Serbia must help itself. It is childish to ask “mother Russia” or any other “mother’ for help.
Serbia is a rich land whose resources and capabilities have been misused (robbed) for the benefit of the few who came to positions of power during the years of chaos (the start of ex-Yu wars).
It is the Serbian people who have their own destiny in their hands. By continuing to be lethargic and accepting of the situation where their future is being taken away, the Serbian people are complicit in their own trip into oblivion and certain servitude to others. “God helps those who help themselves” is a fitting phrase right now. So, sit back and watch your potential turn to dust or stand up and take control of your future. How? Demand accountability. Right now in Serbia, anything goes and hardly anyone goes to jail. Just today there was news of 65 million Euros gone that was meant to fix some railroad cars. What’s going to happen? Nothing. Unless a system of accountability is introduced. I am afraid it’s too late for that too. “You could have been somebody Serbia”
“It is the Serbian people who have their own destiny in their hands”
Not in any practical sense. One could say the above as well to a prisoner in a jail – and expect the same prospects for a change of his “destiny”. Serbia had to wait some five centuries for the collapsing process of Ottoman Empire for a chance to rise twice and free itself… It had to wait for Soviet troops to liberate itself from Nazi Germany… The point being, that throughout history the fate of small nations always depended on big powers at the time. (And yes, Serbia was once a big power too – or so they say – under the Emperor Stefan Dusan (Цар Душан Силни) … but that was in mid XIV century, six and a half long centuries ago…)
“,It is the Serbian people who have their own destiny in their hands, … ,One could say the above as well to a prisoner in a jail – and expect the same prospects for a change of his “destiny,”
Do you feel like you live in a jail? Have you been to jail? In Jail you can’t organize, hold rallies, protests, appeal to lawmakers, put pressure on those in power etc….Like I said, you can sit back and relive the past and wonder where it went wrong and why, or you can stand up and move into the future. No one is going to help you if you don’t help yourself! We do not live in jail. We just forgot what power we can have and we accept to live in a mental jail. Are we scared? Yes. Have we been humiliated, robbed and manipulated? Yes. Is that a reason to stop living and to try to make a place for us in the future? No.
I agree with you in principle, though I get pessimistic thinking about “how”.
“organize, hold rallies, protests, appeal to lawmakers, put pressure on those in power”
Let us forget about Serbia just for a moment … and see how these items work here inside the USA:
* “organize” – each organization is infiltrated by fed and local police, is marginalized in public; but should it ever start becoming a threat to the regime, it is always violently “nipped in the bud”
* “rallies, protests” – are never effective, one sees these all the time, they resemble *carnivals*, never drawing serious attention of the general public – and do not achieve anything
* “appeal to lawmakers” – is the biggest joke of all … each American “congressman”, for example, has a polite form letter of a general type that can fit any situation, which he sends to you as a “reply” to your letter merely to “pacify” you (I know this first hand, I live here, and have sent *hundreds* of these during wars in Bosnia and Krajina in the 1990-es)…
* “put pressure on those in power” – ah??? (you are kidding, of course…)
And you believe these things would work in Serbia?…
As a Serb, I agree with all the main points of Mr. Pravosudov’s article. But as I see many Serbs who posted here like to list excuses as to why Serbian present situation is what it is, I will also list three Serbian “features” that I see as main obstacles to Serbian ability to get out of the current crisis. For Serbs to discuss and disagree, and for non-Serbs as education material.
1. Serbs often expect others to solve their problems
2. Serbs are committing a slow suicide as a people
3. Serbs don’t understand that politics is the art of the possible
1. You will often hear from many Serbs “if only so-and-so did something, then things would be better”. If only Russians gave us S-300 in the ’90s. If only someone were to come to Serbia and invest in the economy and restart the factories. If only Serbia had oil deposits. If only Serbian PR in the US were as effective as the Albanian PR (also in the ’90s). If only Serbia had a common border with Russia. If only other people weren’t throwing trash on the streets. If only government took care of this… And so on, et nauseam. But at the same time Serb are proud that the cafes of their cities are full during the days on workdays. It boils down to not taking initiative and responsibility for one’s own life and future. It’s easier to sit and complain than to do something. Unfortunately this Serbian characteristic can’t be blamed on NATO, or the U.S., or on the Germans or the Turks. It’s a bad character trait that only Serbs can fix.
2. Serbs don’t have enough kids; the fertility rate is well below replacement level. Demographic predictions say that the population of Serbia will be cut in half or lower over the next century, if the present trends continue. But hey, Serbs sure like their hedonism: many international music festivals they are proud of (Exit, Гуча, Belgrade Beer Fest, and many others), entertainment, sports, you name it. Anything but having kids. The excuse is, we are poor, we have no jobs, the future is uncertain, how can wee afford to have kids? At the same time the countries which are an order of magnitude poorer than Serbia can double their population in 20 years (Ethiopia, for example, 1990-2010). So the Serbs have lost the will to survive as a people. That is also not the fault of NATO, or the U.S., or the Germans or the Turks.
3. Serbian policies are often extremist: either bare chest against the machine gun, or complete surrender. There is little ability to negotiate, make trade-offs, accept a less favorable outcome for the time being until the situation changes. And this is somehow seen as a virtue by many Serbs. Examples are many: WWI (sure, let’s fight the Austro-Hungarian empire, why not?). Result: 30% population decline, and the creation of Yugoslavia, a disaster. WWII (sure, let’s provoke the Germans after our government negotiated a treaty to keep us out of war, why not?). Result: 1.5 million dead Serbs, and Communist take-over, a disaster. 1990s and Milosevic (hey, let’s intentionally piss off the Americans while the Russians are weak, what are they going to do to us?). Result: Balkan wars, 100k dead, several hundred thousand displaced Serbs, loss of Kosovo, Serbia run by traitors for the past 15 years; a disaster.
The last Serbian ruler who really knew how to negotiate and make the best out of a weaker position was Milos Obrenovic in 19th century.
For the end, I am going to quote a few verses (from memory, sorry) from the greatest living Serbian poet, Matija Beckovic:
Све би трање требало саждити,
Сваку џиџу, маму, беспослицу
Док се опет вера не помоли;
С мало хлеба и са доста вере
Човек може човек постанути.
Every trinket should be burned down,
Every bauble, knick-knack, time-waste,
Until the faith rises again;
With a little bread and a lot of faith
Man can become man.
I have never visited Serbia or Ukraine and I don’t speak the languages, but I studied the NATO attack in 1999. A French military officer, an aristocrat, said “the problem” with the Serbs in Kosovo would soon vanish. Serbs would die out, he said. Considering how many died in Russia, Ukraine and other countries after the fall of the USSR, millions, Slavic people need to understand they are under attack and I say that as someone in western Europe. Connect the dots. You suffer today. You are up against an empire, which has no love for you. Do something, nobody else can do it for you.
Russia is making a HUGE mistake. With HALF the money the USA spends it could do so MUCH to counter USA propaganda. A couple of hundreds of thousands can go very far in helping local initiatives to get pro-russian or anti-nato activists moving and grooving. These groups need money for gas, printing banners and shirts, they buy flags and buy bottles of water for their people in the rallys. These activists are people with actual jobs who want to go out and make a difference but they can’t just go and ask for time off to go and protest. The USA is the master because they create NGO’s, institutions, foundations and other professional protesters and full time dissidents who not only get juicy perks from USA but also get people around the world to donate to their sleazy causes. Come RUSSIA, wake up TODAY.
You are right about most things, serbs are divided and lost, it’s old serbian problem. But I can tell you perspective is different after we lost our territories, after we have been bombed by west, after serbs were refugees from they own land, after economical brake-down, after being satanized by world media, after history revisions, after Kosovo independence, etc. If we had nuclear bomb and 120 million people maybe we would defend our self slightly better, like Russia now.
But USA is much stronger than us, they defeated us and we lost everything, we have been trough hell. Now they pay politicians and maintain hidden occupation, we know that but what is our option, to fight NATO again? Have you lost 20 years of your life in sanctions, poverty, isolation, fear and shame? What do you want from Serbs now? To continue with fighting until we all disappear? Serbia has future but it should be serbian future, because Russia did not protect us from US. And US, Germans and Vatican they are much better in protection of their allays.
So if Russia have business plan how to help, sustain and develop our relations so we can have common future and growth we are open to it but if not than you can not except serbian people to suffer in unreal fight with world empire just because that is “right” thing to do, we already lost almost all we had. Do not except people to make changes, people do not like US but all over the world they are under US influence, so Russia needs to do their part of job if you want people to follow you. Give something, take something that is law of nature… regarding Sofia being Serbian town, that is nonsense and I do not know who says such thing, no one here thinks that way.
Beside historical differences and fights which all nations in europe had serbian and bulgarians have nice relationship and mutual respect. I can assure you serbs feel stupid, betrayed, poor and week after decades of fight so we have no interest to fight anymore. Only interest we have is to maintain peace, stability, economical growth, law obedience, modern state which will maintain economical, intellectual freedom and better life.
We do not need US nor RUS for that just our people needs to think and react in order to find and realize their own interest. Since people Are still not yet aware of changes we really need it is easier for politicians to play with us, to sell our wealth and to maintain their positions with foreign help. But, that will change, serbs will get smarter in time. With love from Belgrade.
George Brankovic battalions of traitors have existed in Serb lands for centuries. Serbs will unite and clean this splacino from the face of the earth!! No mercy to traitors and spies must be shown! Only then Serb lands will have a future!!! Smrt izdajicima i izrodu Srpskog naroda!!!! CCCC!!!!!!!
Glad to read this article. Must admitt I’m afraid that Serbia have not shinny future. Also, it is interesting how unaware of russian influence during the centuries over Balkans you are. It was russian ‘historians’ whom invent bulgarian bright past and also russians that gave Sofia to Bulgaria and unite and control newborn bulgaria even more than Austria and later Germany.. about cyrrilic letters again russians and now when you are definitely bored with bulgarians you turn to serbs again.. but now it is too late it seems.. So, we may blame whomever but it is thruth that russia always suported bulgarians and never serbs becouse of geopolitical reasons..conclusion is please do not help us no more you helped Tito to conquire Serbia and it is enough we are dead already
So much rubbish and so much treasure posted in the comments section above. Spot the obvious troublemakers, trying to divert the discussion into matters which though important, are not RELEVANT to the topic. The nature of the Chetniks is important but not RELEVANT to today, to the future.
The future of Serbia? To Russian readers, (and Russia is where my sympathies are, I am of Serbian descent), wake up! Serbia’s purgatory is your own trajectory, till you wake up. The essential nature of the West and its toxic treacherous nature, its methodologies, weaknesses and its rabid obsessions, were on fulll view for you, in its campaign against Serbia. What did Russia learn? Nothing appparently. It always seems to be surprised by Western duplicity, provocations, and methods.
Am I the only one who sees in Ukraine now, a direct re-run of the implosion of Yugoslavia, with the beleagured and betrayed orthodox slavs on one side, and the western funded fascists on the other? With all the same old western strategies and methodologies, which we have all seen before, and yet which seems to leave Russian leaders like rabbits in headlights?
To get to the point, the question is ‘what will you, Russia, now do?’ And yet the author asks ‘What will you, Serbia, now do?
I am just speechless as to how to respond to that absurdity. Your house is on fire, and you pull petals from flowers and ponder abstract ideas while you face immediate existential threats.