by Rostisalv Ishchenko
Source: Как нам обустроить нацистов?
Translated by S
I hope that at present those, who thought that Ukrainian civil war would continue for years and even for decades, clearly see that the Kiev regime and the government of Ukraine will fall within several months, at the worst – in about a year.
The war goes on, because the Kiev leadership, using habitual submissive inertia of the population and relying on wreckage of the state machinery, brutal force and the acknowledged central authority status, has an opportunity to accumulate the remaining recourses (equipment, people, money) and thrust them into the furnace of war.
If there is no at least nominally legitimate authority in Kiev, the army won’t fight, the Ministry of Internal Affairs will subject itself to the local authorities, and every Nazi gang refashioned into “volunteer battalion” will take orders from its führer and fight each other about loot. Also they, already far from being an organized military force, will plunder and commit atrocities in particular regions.
The Liberation army is capable to restore some order comparatively swiftly. It’s also possible to ensure the inhabitants’ minimum persistence (particularly with Russian support). But once the Nazi government, Nazi army and major Nazi gangs are gone, the society will still adhere to Nazi ideology, so ingrained in the heads of at least half of the population.
Meanwhile there will be a lot of weaponry. It’s easy to annihilate the hundred-men-gangs that drive tanks and APCs. It’s not hard to smash tens of hundreds of such gangs. But it is impossible to disarm the entire 40-million population.
Hence the record of the first crop of Banderites has been not only well-remembered, but heroized by Nazi propaganda, the hiding Nazis, having almost unlimited number of weapons, might start terrorizing people in the freed territories. Chasing the officials, followers and activists of a new authority, sabotaging and organizing diversions by hiding Nazis can become a greater and, above all, longer-lasting problem than the very military action.
Military-police methods of struggle with ideology-driven underground result efficient only over a long period and if the recourses of the hiding Nazis are limited. In a country with 2 million “civilians” who might be in sympathy with fascists it’s impossible to root out such kind of underground movement.
This underground, as the Lernaean Hydra, will grow new heads for each head cut off, despite alteration of generations. Its activities can be limited and made almost invisible, but not crushed to the full extent. It will wait for its finest hour for decades as the Banderites did between 1945 and 2014. It’s possible to put an end to active banderism and to underground Nazi resistance only if masses cease favoring the Nazi ideology.
There are not so many committed Nazis in Ukraine – up to several tens of thousands. Many have died and many will die on the civil war front. Many of them will be killed in the midst of the obliteration of armed gangs into which Ukrainian army is about to disintegrate. The hundreds of Nazis, who hold political posts or actively participate in propaganda activities, have already fallen under penal articles. If lived through, they will be jailed for long or forever. It’s impossible to imprison or kill off the millions. Better said, technically, yes, it’s possible, but moral, material and political costs will be too high, and the result won’t justify those costs.
That’s why the millions, who rejoiced at the “fried Colorado beetles” news through social media and demanded to annihilate the Donbass’ cities along with their populations (because in their opinion, “there are no civilians”), risk nothing: although their actions are amoral, however they lack the elements of crime. At the same time, those millions by moral support for Nazis (who are considered absent in Ukraine) prepare the nutrient medium the Nazi underground movement melts into. And in such a way it gets to be uncatchable and extremely enduring.
They, the millions, of course will accept a new ideology and will reason basing on TV news. But it won’t prevent them from being faithful to “European dream”, which has been stolen from them by Donbass people. The war will always dwell with war participants; they always deem themselves heroes. Mutilated soldiers, whose number totals to thousands and keeps growing, won’t tell their children that they lost limbs, having stupidly let drag themselves into fight for the wrong. They will talk nonsense about “European dream”, hordes of “Donbass terrorists” and quintillions of regular troops of the Russian Federation, against whom only a few fighters (“cyborgs”, “Kruty heroes”, “the 300 Spartans”) stood.
Marginal revanchism is a Nazi medium. While telling their children and grandchildren about merits beyond the call of duty, the most ordinary victims of 4 waves of mobilization, who are nowhere near the Nazi ideology, will impress the feeling of marginality (enmity toward state and society) upon their minds. They will also inculcate a desire to repeat “exploit” of the fathers and grandfathers and to “free” the non-vindicated Motherland in young generation.
This unobservable influence of family legends has not let the Ukrainizers oppress the Russian spirit in Ukraine within 3 post-soviet decades. But the same unnoted influence of family legends had allowed the Banderites to survive 70 years and show up at the beginning of the 21st century. It’s able to maintain the Ukrainian neo-Nazis’ ideas for entire decades and provide the grounds for hiding Nazis.
One can’t catch / jail / shoot all of them, given that those will seem to be alike, to be living next to you since ages, speaking the same language.
The only way to rapidly eradicate the Nazism or any other ideology is to make it unpopular with the society and to bring the carriers of this ideology out as uptight misfits who are bound to fail and rust. Actually the communist ideology was being wiped out exactly in this way since dissolution of the Soviet Union. As a result, the surveys done in all former soviet states show that, regarding matters of their concern, the most population sympathize with left wing’s agenda. Nevertheless, the general population vote for the right wing, because it’s sort of obscene to support the leftists.
So, we’re familiar with technology. Moreover, we know who the main target audience is: the youngsters. As the members of Ukrainian hitlerjugend aged 14 and older are unlikely to get reeducated easily, younger children and teenagers, especially kids aged 10 and less, will strongly depend on created social environment. When implementing more or less appropriate propagandistic activities, it’ll be possible for no parent to reveal to a child that he or she was killing children in Donetsk, that he or she was destroying the country by inflicting hunger, unemployment and disorder on sorely trouble-free state.
It was shameful to have a Nazi past in postwar Germany and Italy, i.e. after 1945. The anti-Nazi sentiment in those countries is one of the strongest. E.g. Germany even doesn’t let itself to publicly support neo-Nazism, as opposed to what Poland takes the liberty to do. The Polish ended up among victims of aggression circumstantially, they didn’t have to get denazified. They weren’t ashamed.
The first task is to give the society a moral reference point, to show it the seamy side of the today’s Kiev regime, so that no sane human being could admit that he or she voluntarily supports it.
There is the second task, and the German also completed it.
It suddenly turned out that there were no Nazis in the country that supported Hitler even after his death and was brought to senses only owing to decisive defeat of its armed forces and total occupation of its land. I mean, somebody perished in battles, somebody was executed, somebody was imprisoned, somebody managed to get away, but the rest happened to be anti-fascists… millions, tens of millions of anti-fascists, secret “regime busters”. German people experienced such a huge cultural shock that they (being of sound mind) could not avow that they had supported the Nazi regime. They persuaded themselves that, though silently, inwardly, they fought against Nazism. It turned out that even the millions of frontline soldiers “defended not Hitler, but Germany”.
It’s indispensable to let Ukrainian Nazi fellows, accomplices to the coup d’état, social media “fighters” feel themselves the regime’s opponents. They will find a pretext on their own. If an “anti-terrorist ops veteran” tells his grandchild that he lost hand defending the Donbass from Nazi horde or that he sustained burns not in a tank which was set afire when assaulting Slavyansk, but in a line of weaponless “Berkut” special forces who held back heavily armed militants, no doubt it won’t be fair with regard to retaliation matter (at least to moral condemnation), but farsighted as for denazification of the society. Person, telling to her or his son about how he or she fought against Nazis, will never be able to advocate the Nazism again. It’s possible to make it through whatever public disapproval. It’s impossible to get over the reproof of one’s own offspring, children and grandchildren.
The carrying out of a death sentence of Makarova Antonina M. (alias – Ton’ka The Machine gun shooter) took place in 1979. She collaborated with Nazi Germans in so called “Lokot Republic” in Bryansk region. In 1942 the woman shot dead more than 1500 people. Antonina raised 2 daughters to be true soviet citizens who hated Nazis and Nazi collaborators. The girls were staggered, having got to learn that in fact their mom was not an honored soviet trench fighter, but collaborator and Nazi butcher. Mrs Makarova worked hard in a postwar time; her photos did not leave the honor board. And it is not only her case. Many collaborators, traitors became all-right soviet citizens, best workers. Exactly this played badly for them. The witnesses of their crimes recognized them precisely by the honor board photos, newspaper images, etc.
It’s impossible to show a false face for decades. The majority of those people just psychologically replaced real biography by made-up one. All men are liable to invent explanations for their wrongdoings, and those explanations even justify and prove the misdeeds to be necessary. Dirty tricks are misrepresented as heroism. The person starts believing the invented version. This process goes faster in mass conscience. Already in 2005 more than a half of Kiev inhabitants who participated in the 1st Maidan asserted that they walked out to the streets not to support Yuschenko, that Yuschenko betrayed them, that “orange” politicians were all scum, that they would never come to protest on Maidan. However, in 2013 those people again went to Maidan. All the top brass of Ukraine elite, with rare exception, is former members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (like Kravchuk and Kuchma who held senior positions in the party) or Komsomol (Young Communist League) leaders (like Turchinov). The most important is that, if those wake up tomorrow morning and find out that the Soviet Union has been miraculously revived, the first thing they’ll do is to take off to a district committee of the party and demand to reissue their party membership cards.
I’d like to point out once more that only certain, utmost lame (generally, psychologically insane) people can do evil and be proud of it. The most people find themselves on the dark side because of their own spinelessness and they forget about it with relish, if the society lets them forget.
That’s why it seems necessary to combine the following measures:
– severe punishment for leaders and organizers of the coup d’état, as well as for blatant war criminals and sadists (I think, it’s rather okay to postpone the restoration of regular justice system in the liberated territories for several weeks, so that people manage to impose their own sentence on criminals, if they will);
– pitiless execution of Nazis and thugs who refuse to lay down arms after Ukrainian military and governmental institutions collapse;
– intensive anti-Nazi propaganda while exposing all the horrors of Nazis’ crimes (without fear to go too far with that and not getting distracted from it by trending topics as time goes on);
– consigning to oblivion the behavior pattern of many cannon fodder guys and “volunteers” of the dictatorship, so giving them an opportunity to forget their past and raise kids right.
Of course, it’d be great to apply the methods of the USSR that forgave neither those who had joined punitive squads or auxiliary policy, nor those who had verbally favored German occupation (it did not matter whether in printed words or by word of mouth).
The French took more drastic measures. They hung ordinary city officials, who served in the Vichy government (by the way, this government was totally legal and it acted in conformity with the Constitution and laws of France). But neither USSR, nor France faced up to civil war (when a half of population fights against another one).
Civil war ends in victory of one or another party. There is no doubt that we’ll win. Nevertheless, the other party won’t vanish. It’s impossible to eliminate it. Since civil war got started, it is clear that every side is supported by remarkable percentage of citizens (up to a half), otherwise the majority would suppress the minority. Here you have the slaughter of minorities in Rwanda ([1994 genocide] stopped due to arrival of peacekeepers) and Cambodia ([1975-1979 genocide] ended following the Vietnamese invasion). It is not acceptable for Europe (by the way, those massacres in Africa and Asia settled not a single matter, while people who initiated and led them got killed in a short time).
Therefore, in any case we have to come to an agreement. Then the agreement can’t be a halfway one. There can be no ideological compromise with Nazism. So, the Nazi mob, which presently considers that Ukraine stays clean from Nazism, once we’ve won, firstly must get convinced that no, it doesn’t, and secondly that it was fighting the Nazism on its own whenever and wherever possible.
Otherwise this war will cast a shadow over decades. Even to the third generation, the revanchists will be ready to take advantage of whatever problems of ours in order to revenge.
If you can’t kill the carrier of ideology, kill the ideology. It’s difficult, but the only thing to do.
Rostislav Ischenko, president of the Centre for System Analysis and Forecast, exclusively for the “Timely comments”
Has anyone seen this? Can someone translate this video? I posted this question on the old blog as well, because this article/post had not yet appeared on the new blog.
It looks like it came from the airport fighting (the buildings in the background).I know some of the UAF bodies were found with their hands tied there.There are, as I see it, two explanations for that (a third,that the NAF did it probably should be dismissed.If they did they wouldn’t talk about it,and film it).The two explanations are, 1st, the men were trying to desert and their own side killed them.Possible,but I think if they were prisoners to be killed, their hands would have been tied behind their backs,not in front of them.The 2nd,is that the men were killed in the fighting and their hands were tied after that.It would make transporting them easier (no arms flopping around,and with the onset of rigor mortis.Their arms wouldn’t become frozen in strange positions).As a guess,I think the 2nd explanation makes more common sense.
If they didn’t want to fight, hands tied in front they could be tied to guns? made to shoot? IDK. They seemed to have been executed.
In a village near Odessa, staying at a farm house, 19 guys on punishment were locked in the only room with barred windows, a storeroom that also contained their ammunition. One tried to blast their way out with a hand grenade. The wall didn’t break but a fire started and they were all trapped. A lot of crazy cruelty and stupidity in this war.
NAF is burying Ukies in Debaltsevo, Kiev doesn’t seem to want to get them. There are still bodies at the airport, they won’t stop shelling the heavy machinery they need to use to remove rubble to get at them.
The ONLY benefit of NAF burials is, they check for and record the IDs first, on men who would otherwise be just listed as MIA. Even if the families never get a body, at least they will KNOW.
So the NAF is never to blame for anything. They must be the saintliest army on this planet, no cruelty at all, nothing…
flor, you seem to fit the description of this article. brainwashed nazi zombie I don’t suppose you read it though,. I actually met a guy where i live who said the only good thing to do with books was burn them…I guess you feel that way too.
I met a guy who said that Rudolf Steiner’s “philosophy” should be subtly disseminated everywhere. I guess you feel that way too.
A key role in the de-Nazification of the Kiev government is by the de-Nazification of the Kiev Regime’s masters, the Anglo/American/Zionist Oligarchs.
That work begins at home. For our American citizens, we must restore our Republic, and bring to justice our own Nazis, those housed in the Wall Street Banks, and the nation’s Capital. The restoration of our National independence from the Zionists and Anglos, and the restoration of our Republic, will allow set the stage for the withdrawal of American military forces from around the planet, (a call the courageous former Congressman, Dr. Ron Paul, has repeatedly made).
The Democratization of America, and the American peoples’ return to the side of good and justice, and alliance with the world’s peoples, from Russia, to China, to Latin America, and Africa, will allow the arrest of Nazis and other totalitarians, and our new multi-polar world will take shape. Perhaps, the United Nations, freed from imperialist manipulation, might be of some use.
The Ukrainian Nazis, installed from Washington DC, London, and Tel Aviv, must be defeated, first, in their place of birth. Then, the criminals in Kiev will be readily apprehended and put on trial, along with their masters.
Karl Leibknecht said, “The Main Enemy Is at Home.”
Peter J. Antonsen – AC
For the Democratic Republic! For all the Democratic Republics!
interesting… can you elaborate on each of Zionists and Anglos separately?
“Anonymous February 24, 2015
interesting… can you elaborate on each of Zionists and Anglos separately?
Directed to me, or Ishchenko?
If directed to me:
The family and corporate identities of Zionists, their organizations, and leading Anglo imperialists, and their organizations, have been all over the Media.
When you “elaborate” on your identity (which you hide – behind “anonymous,”), and honestly declare your intention, perhaps I can “elaborate.”
I suppose you think of “Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness”?
(Declaration of Independance)
very well said. I could not agree more. that is precisely what is missing. Most people I know (here in the US) – and I believe they are representative of the majority – are still deeply involved in defending the indefensible: the new police state, the criminal “justice” system, our foreign policy, and the so-called leaders who have created the monstrosity we have become.
One of the outstanding qualities of religion, Christianity for instance, is to afford the opportunity to be redeemed — to change one’s mind and transform oneself — to be forgiven.
I lived in sin and ignorance, but found the Lord (Christ, truth, prophet, etc.) and have been reborn.
The theme also runs through the South African Truth & Reconciliation proceedings. It is present in the adolescent rites of manhood and transition in so many cultures. This is an important human transformation, both internally psychologically and externally in society.
It is not the development of critical thinking – that’s a separate thing — but rather the discarding of one set of values and identity for another, and yet can be a useful thing.
I recall as a kid when a fanatical Jehovah’s Witness came around for a while attempting to evangelize the neighborhood (the only time I saw my grandmother run and hide from anything). I understood when he said “I used to be a Nazi, but now I am saved and know the truth of Jehovah”. He was still fanatical at that time — hadn’t cured himself of that– but at least not a Nazi, which was an improvement.
Ignorance, being deceived and brainwashed, immaturity, even being immersed in evil — all common human conditions, especially when younger. So how then to transcend it, without social and structural support, or rites of passage? Perhaps some sort of religious or quasi-religious transformative process could useful?
“… I hope that at present those, who thought that Ukrainian civil war would continue for years and even for decades, clearly see that the Kiev regime and the government of Ukraine will fall within several months, at the worst – in about a year. …”
First it was a year ago. … Then it was the day before yesterday. Then yesterday. And now it is … “in about a year”… (What next?) Oh, please, just let it go, Mr. Oracle The N-th (N →∞).
Kill them until they surrender. Transform the society with rebuilding and work.
But first, welcome the war and use it well. Kill them.
Ryder, when i hear that they all should just be killed, I always wonder….”what is the spiritual world supposed to do with them?”
They’re actually our own. we should deal with them. Solitary confinement with two visits a day from any and all major religion representatives, good black russian bread and water and nothing else. No tv no computer. and as many great books as they want. truly great books.
Its an expensive thought…but so is war.
I would like to ask you a question that me knowingly we haven’t discussed on this blog (i am not sure i might be wrong?) but never the less i think it is very important for the future of Ukraine. I would be very glad if you could write an analyses on the topic or mention it in your podcast. I would like to know what is the position and the opinion of the Ukrainian intelligentsia about, all this mess in Ukraine, are they afraid to speak out their opinion because of the consequences it might have on their lifes their position in the academic circles, their families etc. My question is are there any open and organized criticism in these circles about the “official governments” responsibility of the current political chaos in Ukraine, or are the people to afraid to speak out? Another question, that i’am interested in what is the situation in the rest of the East Ukraine and when i say east i mean everything east of the Dniepr river. Do the people there support the junta or Novo-Russia or are they just indifferent to the war in Luhansk and Donetsk Republics? Are there any organized resistance to Kiev in these parts, and lastly are there any conditions for a general uprising against the Kiev junta and joining the Novo Russian forces in their struggle?
Thanks in advance/Daniel Martin
I have friends in some of those Oblasts you mention.They tell me many people support the NAF there.Or at least are anti-junta.But they are terrified of the fascists in their areas.They watch for signs of dissent regularly.The Right Sector,and other fascist groups have a reign of terror there.One of my friends has been threatened with death several times for speaking out.Some of the men have gone to join the NAF already.And others are waiting for the liberation to come to them.They are also afraid of their areas becoming bombed out shells like areas of Donbass.So hope when liberation comes it will be quick,and not town by town,street by street.
I can’t agree with this post.
Germany got a real de-nazification because the evil in Nazism was so clear: it started a disastrous war and it killed 6 million Jews (not to mention millions of others). And in the end it had nothing to show for it as a result. But if you look to Japan the World War II picture is already much less clear.
Ukraine’s problem is that it doesn’t have a clear national identity. As a consequence Gallician extremists and Ukrainian Americans have been able to impose their vision.
Unfortunately their vision is basically just anti-Russian. Often that is presented as its mirror image: pro-European. But that doesn’t make a difference: a real national identity should be pro-Ukrainian. Pro-Ukrainian means that Ukrainian interests come first and that from that point of view decisions should be made on a case by case basis: sometimes they will look pro-Russian and sometimes pro-European but that doesn’t matter.
Both the EU and Russia are to blame for Ukraine’s situation as both have been pushing Ukraine to support their side. In the process they have both allied with the oligarchs. That has strengthened the oligarchs and made it for the Ukrainian population more difficult to get rid of them.
Whow, you crammed four wrong propositions in one sentence :)
Nope, has been amply shown that the country continued to be led by the same functional elite.
That’s an effect of propaganda on you, the evil wasn’t clearer than in what the noble Allies did.
Germany wasn’t alone in starting the war; it was Great Britain which transformed the regional conflict into a Global War (by getting involved, plus involving France and the Commonwealth).
That’s a hoax, read the fine book by Arthur R. Butz. Overall, Germans killed far more Russians than Jews.
Oh, for . . . the holocaust was not a hoax. There has rarely been an historical event better documented, with everything from bureaucratic records to facts on the ground to the first-person accounts of the survivors. Arguing about it is just fribble. Anyone trying to pretend it didn’t happen is doing so not because of the merits but because, for whatever reason, they really don’t want to believe it happened. I will generously refrain from speculating what the reason might be in this case.
Mind you, it can still be true that Germans killed far more Russians than Jews. After all, they killed far more than 6 million Russians. It still wasn’t as big proportionally because there were a lot more Russians than there were European Jews.
And while the Allies committed many atrocities both on and off the battlefield, with shame particularly concentrated in the bombing campaigns culminating in the torching of places such as Dresden and Tokyo, as well as the dropping of two nuclear weapons largely for the purpose of getting the Cold War with Russia off to an intimidating start rather than for defeating Japan, there is nonetheless plenty of ridiculously horrible stuff the Nazis did which the allies really didn’t. There was victors’ justice at Nuremberg, and there was plenty of culpability among the allies, but if the Brits and Americans were a darker shade of grey than is normally acknowledged, that does not change the blackness of the Nazi regime, with its vicious police state, its systematic repression, tortures and massacres, its psycho racism, its chilling dehumanization of all imagined foes. Even on the dark canvas of human history, Nazism is a horrifying blot, and all its echoes from fascist skinhead nitwits beating up immigrants to Republican honchos blocking black voters have been malign influences on the world. You should be ashamed to be defending them.
National identities are created things. If Ukraine wants a national identity it can have one. It’s surprising how many things which are now considered “traditional” that weld some identity together, started out manufactured out of whole cloth. So for instance, many of the trappings of Highland Scottish culture, such as clan tartans, were invented in the 19th century by Scottish nationalists who wanted a rich “traditional” heritage around which to unify the Scottish people. It worked amazingly well. Ukraine can perfectly well do the same.
They will have to throw out the US and the EU first. Part of the Western elite’s scheme for the world involves blurring or erasing national identities and, ultimately, terminating national sovereignty, which they consider to be an antiquated idea. Look at the results of their work in the Middle East. Even their immigration policies in the US and in Europe are intended to begin to erase the cultures of their own countries. Global slaves don’t need a national identity or even an individual identity or a family or a cultural or a religious identity, as far as these lunatics are concerned.
Nazi count: 46
Not a good article, in my opinion. For various reasons.
First one given in line one. Repetition does not make truth, but it might eventually persuade people, which is what it seems to be all about.
I’m aware many people use “nazi” simply to denote “evil right-wing thugs” or what have you, and that’s about as far as their analysis goes.
I have not been to Ukraine and draw a good part of my little knowledge of that country from this website (so my bias should be clear), but even what footage we get to see here simply doesn’t support the Nazi meme. There does not appear to be any ideology at all. What appears to be there is money, and people joining the volunteer battalions precisely for that reason. It doesn’t even seem to have much to do with nationalism. It’s plain old venality.
The author of this post (and the blog owner as well) are, in my view, mistakenly styling the Ukraine issue according to the exigencies of the dumber part of the Western mindset, which has been educated to localize Evil around the NS insignia. (Because that’s what Uncle Sam liberated Europe from, right?)
True, there are, here and there, photos showing Ukrainians gathering around symbols reminiscent of NS/SS/whatnot. So what? These are just symbols. There’s nothing behind it, at least nothing positive. I’d simply call these folks “symbolists”.
The main thing about them is not the symbol they seem to fancy but that they’re engaging in criminal activity, and for money, and at the instigation of a foreign power, against their own countrymen.
This is not what NS did in Germany.
Finally, I doubt the author of this post has much knowledge of postwar Germany. What he says just mirrors the ’68ers line of propaganda. Basically the generation that inherited a reconstructed country to then blame the generation that had been busy doing the reconstruction.
I think I smell a fascist in our midst.Had you been really following this site,you would have seen countless bits of evidence of pro-nazi ideology and behavior among the junta and their followers.From the comments I see from you,they seem to defend nazism.You are on the wrong site for that type of bs.
A dissident appears, and our bloodhound Uncle Bob quickly picks up a scent of fascism. Hopefully, Lumi will only be sent to re-education camp, if he is able to convince Uncle Bob that he is not with the Banderovskis. Otherwise, it will be rapid special treatment for Lumi.
Speaking in Lebanon, Norman Finklestein said: “You have a challenge: the challenge is to be both principled and reasonable at the same time. If you sound unreasonable, you are going to lose support”
A dissident appears? Oh how cute…
This “dissident” claims that there are no Nazis (as in evil haters) in Ukraine.
Oh no, just some benign “symbolists” whose only motive is money.
Matt your sarcasm’s unpleasant. Uncle Bob is one of my favorite commenters. Don’t be rude to him.
I admire Norman Finklestein.He appears a good man who tries to oppose Israeli apartheid.But I must ask you,what has he really been able to accomplish.With his years of working for justice.And still Israeli oppression is breathtaking in its evil in the ME.There are times when words alone do nothing to stop evil.The Novorossians realized that.Many in the West can’t seen to understand that yet.
Yes, well, Finkelstein’s (and many other fine anti-Zionist Jewish commentators’) efforts have had little impact less because of the powerlessness of words than because of who owns the printing presses. Words are powerful in proportion to how many people hear them. On which topic one should recall the “Propaganda model” of modern media found in Manufacturing Consent by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky, still the fundamental text for explaining why the media don’t generally express inconvenient truths except in marginal ways.
The Palestinians have tried to stop Israeli oppression with words, and they have tried to stop Israeli oppression with violence. Unfortunately, they don’t have enough of either. Their hand is fundamentally weaker than that of the Novorussians. It’s not going to change until the Israelis go broke or the countries surrounding Israel throw off their tawdry corrupt bought-and-paid-for dictatorships/monarchies. And the Israelis won’t go broke until Uncle Sam turns off the cash spigot, either due to political change or imperial collapse.
Oh, so you are the ideological Blockwart here?! Then keep on sniffing for unwelcome opinions…
Your opinions, while unpopular, and which I do not share, do serve a purpose. It is useful for debate. I suppose we need opposing views to be expressed sometimes, not to be educated by them, but perhaps for the sake of sparring with the opposition. I suppose it is essential and we should enjoy the opportunity to disagree with you.
He does have a point because it is the same tactic the other side uses to make you shut up.
You are obviously correct.
If you speak french go here: http://www.egaliteetreconciliation.fr/
If you don’t, well, good luck. They are already “smelling” you…
Hey, maybe Hitler,Himmler, Heydrich, etc., were just “symbolists”! Seriously, Lumi, do you really think the men in the Ukrainian ‘volunteer’ battalions are just in it for the money? As if the regular army soldiers aren’t paid, too? And if the nazis were just in it for the money, why not simply join the mafia or become dope-dealers? There are easier ways of making a living–even a shady one–than being a skinhead. If some people here at the Vineyard emphasize their role in this conflict more than you’d like, maybe that’s because they’re eager to point out the sicking hypocrisy and double-standards of the EU. Some EU countries (such as Germany) ban these symbols domestically, while many more criminalize all holocaust-discourse. Yet they show no hesitation whatsoever in describing freaks like these (Azov, Aidar, Dnieper, etc.) as ‘pro-European’.
And, at least as disturbing, is the fact that so many people (here in the US), who learn there is an element of Nazism in Ukraine, are very happy to support it nevertheless. An (probably CIA-run) alternative left online magazine here in the US, called the Daily Beast, even wrote an article explaining how Nazi symbols in Ukraine have a refreshing new meaning. Swastikas, for example, they claimed now represent “strength and spirit”, etc. An entire article was devoted to brainwashing the American left into supporting Nazism in Ukraine and I have little doubt that most readers bought it unquestioningly. So much for the modern American’s capacity to think…. or for learning anything at all from history….
claims to have “activists” writing for it,which gives you an idea they may not be totally balanced and fair. One regular writer is virulently anti-Russia Anna Nemtsova (no relation to Boris) married to that Andrew Kramer that writes those totally anti-Russia Ukraine stories in New York Times (the ones where the rebels are always drunk or snarling).
The truth plainly spoken is far superior to propaganda, especially if the ones who have been the victims of propaganda are forgiven and given the opportunity to understand why they let themselves be deceived (fear, often shapeless). This will last far longer than stacking one set of propaganda deceptions onto another.
An excellent article.He has pretty much nailed down how denazification can work in Ukraine after the fall of the junta.I would only add that it would have been so much better if the Soviets had done a better job of it after WW2.My understanding was that they didn’t because of their perceived need to spare the feeling of Ukrainians.By not exposing fully some of the truths of Hiwi treason.They thought they were building national unity that way.But it was a mistake.The same is true of Independent Ukraine during the last 23 years.They balanced between West and East Ukraine.And didn’t crack down on the pro-fascist ultra-nationalists to not upset that balance (and in some cases to use it for their “Ukraine is not Russia” ideas.).This time must be different.Coddling of fascism and fascists must not be permitted.It must be uprooted from Ukraine.And never allowed to grow back,to plague the country again.
“Coddling of …ism and …ists must not be permitted.It must be uprooted from Ukraine.And never allowed to grow back,to plague the country again.” — Uncle Bob
Hehe, you sound like a fascist yourself! :)
A realist perhaps,and a student of history.Unlike yourself.
The author makes a lot of sense.
I have asked myself, why the Nazis in the Ukraine are so hatefull against the Russian speaking population. Today I believe, that the Holodomor from 1932/33 is one of the reasons. Germany didn’t experience such an event before the WW2.
Therefore it was easier to induce the feeling of shamefulness in the German population after the war, than it will be in the Ukraine.
Germany suffered under the Treaty of Versailles, with all it entailed.
Dynamics of hate are a bit more complex than that. Why did German Nazis hate Jews? Why did Croatian fascists hate Serbs? http://combatgenocide.org/?page_id=86
Besides, the holodorm might not be quite what we are being told:
Croatian fascists hated Serbs for the same reason Serb chetniks hated croatians.
Actually, the original reason was that the mother of Ante Starcevic was a Serb, while his father was a Croat. He had to choose one side, and did so rabidly.
Way before there was any conflict between Serbs and Croats, he wrote that the “Serbian Problem” had to be solved with the ax.
There are always two sides in a conflict.
Sometimes one side are innocent victims fighting for their lives and liberty.
Any “denazification” would be more efficient imho, if we would stop talking of various “fascisms” that mushroomed in the space of former USSR, as revivals of the German National Socialism, which supposedly continued to live underground as a very powerful “occult” organization. This is a subject for sensationalist novels which propose their own “conspiracy theories”. That distracts from looking into the real causes.
The Ukrainian nationalism had, historically, different origins altogether than Nazism and had circumstantial contacts with it. We may ask why the fact that Stepan Bandera and Yaroslav Stetsko were interned in a German concentration camp for the entire duration of the war is overlooked, as well that the fact that the OUN fought against the Nazis and the Bolsheviks “the two foreign occupiers” of Ukraine and that many Jews joined the OUN. Many historians, do not support the claims that the UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) was involved in anti-Jewish massacres.That’s why the claim that the “banderists” were “Nazis” can be denounced as propaganda and serves only to confuse the maters.
After the end of WW2 Bandera, Stetsko and their organization were recruited by the CIA and MI6 and used in the fight against the USSR.
It must be stressed again that the origins of the Ukrainian nationalism are in the Ukrainian Schisms (the Unia and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church) which will continue to feed it in the foreseeable future along with the Kolomoiskys (strangely a problem never addressed).
The origins of the Ukrainian nationalism couldn’t be in the Ukrainian schisms, because a nation’s identity is not entirely defined by its religion. Not to mention that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church separated only recently from Moscow, and Ukrainian nationalism is definitely older. Moreover the two churches are different from one another. The only thing which unites them is their separation from Russia.
Also, by the same token you could say that the origins of Russian nationalism are in its Orthodox church, which would also not be correct.
Yes there’s no mention of the oligarchs who since independence in 1991 have been ripping Ukraine off for their own gains and who are largely responsible for the pitiful economic conditions the country’s in today.
To a certain extent this history is moot, simply because the people involved themselves seem to believe they derive their roots from Nazism. I mean, look at Svoboda for Pete’s sake: Originally called themselves the “Social Nationalist” party, used a Nazi-associated symbol for their emblem, and in 2005 started the “Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre”. Don’t tell me they’re not Nazi-related, tell them.
And they’re considered less extreme than some of the militias!
Once you start killing the Nazis, how will you effectively prevent them from fleeing to/through Poland, to Canada? This would need to be well planned.
Wrong, pitifully wrong.
(I think, it’s rather okay to postpone the restoration of regular justice system in the liberated territories for several weeks, so that people manage to impose their own sentence on criminals, if they will);
Allow 3 weeks of lawlessness so people can go and murder who they deemed to be death squad members? and set up a whole new cycle of guilty consciences and bloodied hands they can’t explain? it shocking enough the perpetrators of Odessa have been slowly disappearing, because the victims were betrayed by their own government that arrested the survivors, not the perpetrators.
There are VERY FEW NAZIS in Ukraine. In what name will you start further bloodbaths to get rid of those who need to be gone? then how get rid of the people who did that? Crazy talk.
There are very many, and the number is growing daily, who are sick of being terrorised by the death squads and marauding gangs (because they can, NOT because of any ideology) who are making life hell in the whole country. There are many sick of seeing these get around, well dressed and well fed and far from the front lines, while their sons or husbands are listed as “missing” by a government that doesn’t want to pay family pensions, killed or maimed fighting for nothing.
The ones coming home NOW, with PTSD or limbs missing, are not telling their children it happened killing Donetsk children. Thy are saying it happened because their Government forced them to go, untrained and unequipped, against a FALSE ENEMY, who turned out to be their fellow Ukrainians who treated them better than their own officers did.
These people, which is 95% or more of the population, will buy the “Nazis” as the criminal terrorists that they are, and be very happy to not turn that way themselves. Bandera has to be rehabilitated as he truly was — a man with 2 faces, a turncoat, who always tried to align with the winning side. That today’s Nazis are lionising someone who at one stage was killing people like them, just shows how stupid they are.
The people who really need to be dealt with are the government leaders who used these goon squads, ordered the terrorism, gave them police powers.
Technically there is a problem. If they can’t be rounded up in big groups, they can easily melt into the population. There is no hope they’ll be recognised by their victims, because they always wear balaclavas. All their social media has to be found and copied while they still feel safe, as that will be the main way to recognise them.
your comment sounds like good common sense to me Kat Kan.
I agree completely.
Il make it short.
I agree on your assesments on the situation, not the article per see, because I see only -isms doing the dirty work for an elite whom controlls it all.
I have witnessed this NeoNazis, whatever they mean with it, and to me, they intially was against a new commy threat looming from the east, in hind days, and when Sovjet evaporated, a vacume was indused and they went astray.
But here is the clue, all thrue this years, the Zioturds have been incharge of some of the more famous groups, and when the Commy scare disapeared it was replaced with a new one, The Muslim invasion/whatever scare, and since the last dacede that have intensifyed their work, regading hyping the Islam scare.
Our A. B. Berivik was one of them, not a single word about nothing else than the islamic invasion of salvi europa, of course he didnt bother to mention NON slavic europeans as I.
And we where in the same chategory as the Muslims, to be wiped out completely.
And of course a diehard freind of israel.
The salughter he did was against a Labour youth camp where they had just stated their suport for the Palestinian cause and to induce boicotting of Israeli goods.
I dont belive anything else than to entrly wipe out the ruling class, the instigatores of this poltical game of divide and conquer, and I am a bitt supriced over the level of naivite I read about UssA, the moust evil empire we have had, and stil does as it wants.
They pick any group, anyone, as Boko Haram was created to make havoc in the sub saharan lands, and Al Quea qitch have convin iently morphed into ISIS, and people the western lands sent to fight Assad/Gaddafi/Mubarak was heroes, and we had cosy home reports from their fights, and now all of them are considerend to be terrorists.
Forgotten already, westerness, how f…. convineint.
Remeber I made this short to just highlight lines, minor clsuerf…. I dont bother since I know whom is pushing them
You see, why I dont mention reliigion at all, since moust of it is corrupted to its core, and is becomed institutionalised frauds, in moust of the great relgions.
You whine about Muslims killing, what about Buddists whom is slaughtering people.
In the name of Siddharta Guetarama aka Buddah.
Buddah must be a genuine evil creature, isnt he.
Religion, is becomed tools for the powers that rules to any given time.
But I will challange you, to read about something I want you to read, the “translation/sunnah” of the Torah witch I know is genuin and older, and is exatcly the same type of “interpitations/sunnah” of the teachings of Muhammad.
The original teachings in this book witch is becomed a religion isnt from the Torah, but is a Mithrandian religion, an ancient Iraqi one, from Babylon.
And then The Wahhabis.
Both insane and downright evil, and is a pervertion of man, made by man.
Both are political inventions to spread confusion, and to create more “tungs”.
Il stopp there.
Since I know moust of you have dropped of and isnt aware of some of this.
All done by and thrue a comunion I call the Tribe.
But their best and moust effective tool is, the banks.
The real hydra.
Unless wiped out of existence, we will NEVER have peace.
I define anything writen or sayed, that isnt in this lines as atemts to confuse/divert, and have nothing to do with the Cause/Effect of the policys of the Tribe.
If this is “making it short”, I’d hate to read what you would write to “make it long”! Please keep it shorter than this next time!
I don’t fault Saker for posting this article. That being said, I don’t like the author’s solution of executions, purges, and re-education assuming the novorossians win this war. I’d hope the aftermath would involve more forgiveness and less recriminations. Any new government, to have any legitimacy, will have to show that they are better than the one they replaced.
You must have been reading a different article, naz. The author does discuss the issues involve in re-education, but nowhere does he advocate “executions and purges”. It seems that you breezed past this statement:
“It’s impossible to imprison or kill off the millions. Better said, technically, yes, it’s possible, but moral, material and political costs will be too high, and the result won’t justify those costs.”
It is good to think of the society that will be left when Kiev crumbles or the junta changes faces.
But what will make it all work well in the end is the criminalization and execution of all the leaders. None can be left standing. They are guilty of crimes against humanity or war crimes or just mass murder, torture and rape. However you slice it. It’s imperative to kill them all. Rid the planet of the top echelons of these scum.
Hang them, shoot them, blow them up, or however you can, eliminate them from the Earth.
good article. I agree, although wasn’t completely understanding, although I appreciate the translator’s work. but its like Saker says, ‘Ukraine has to be de-nazified’.
I really hope Novorussia takes the political head of Ukraine. and the soldiers turn back into workers and the people of Ukraine who are brainwashed nazis, work under these good decent people.
how strange that in that part of the world thid festering infection has lived and is living and will live. Its almost like world karma…something the world has to cope with. I suppose its going to be like fundamentalist Islam, and boko haram too. I ‘m not too sure what the ideology of boko haram is, but its the same thing in Africa.
I wonder how long before something in the States erupts like this.
This article from a few months back does an excellent job of answering your question about Boko Haram http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.au/search?q=boko+haram
@The origins of the Ukrainian nationalism couldn’t be in the Ukrainian schisms
Definitely the origins of Ukrainian nationalism are in the Unia, which dates from the end of the 16th Century.
“The Ukrainian Orthodox Church was proclaimed under the Ukrainian National Republic in 1917 and survived in Soviet Ukraine until the early 1930s.
In 1921 an All-Ukrainian Sobor (Synod) was called in Kiev, the capital of the newly independent Ukraine, and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church was declared independent from the Moscow Patriarchate (MP). The Sobor delegates chose Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivsky as head of the church. The 1921 Sobor has become known as the “first resurrection” of the UAOC…
A few years later in 1924, Gregory VII, Archbishop of Constantinople and Ecumenical Patriarch, issued a tomos establishing the Kievan Metropolia as an autocephalous entity. The responsibility of establishing a new Synod of Bishops was given to the Metropolitan-Archbishop of Warsaw, Dionisiy Valedynsky…
Ukrainian independence was short-lived in this period, and eventually the USSR came into being. The Soviets introduced an atheistic regime, though initially the church was allowed to function, AS A TOOL AGAINST THEIR MORE ADVERSE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH, though from 1930s the UAOC too was persecuted, and eventually disbanded in Soviet Ukraine” (Wikipedia).
The Wikipedia entry on Ukraine says:
“The 13th century Mongol invasion devasted Kievan Rus’. Kiev was totally destroyed in 1240. On today’s Ukrainian territory, the state of Kievan Rus’ was succeeded by the principalities of Halych and Volodymyr-Volynskyi, which were merged into the state of Galicia-Volhynia.
Danylo Romanovych (Daniel I of Galicia or Danylo Halytskyi) son of Roman Mstyslavych, re-united all of south-western Rus’, including Volhynia, Galicia and Rus’ ancient capital of Kiev. Danylo was crowned by the papal archbishop in Dorohychyn in 1253 as the first King of all Rus’. Under Danylo’s reign, the Kingdom of Galicia-Volhynia was one of the most powerful states in east central Europe.”
And most definitely they already had a strong national conscience, just like all the others around them, like the Russians, the Poles, the Hungarians, etc.
No doubt, the papist poison has been injected at an earlier date than the 16th Century. The subsequent subjection of Galicia–Volhynia to Poland only enhanced its effects.
The former Orthodox Metropolia of Kiev and all Rus’was moved to Vladimir-Suzdal (1299) and then to Moskow (1325). Then we had the Union of Brest (1595). The Patriarchate of Moscow established in 1589 inherited the “canonical territory” of the former Metropolia of Kiev and all Rus.
To see that the Unia is considered the midwife of “Ukrainian” nationality let the unionists themselves speak (Wikipedia- undoubtedly an article written by an Uniate):
“The final step of the full particularity of the Ukrainian Catholic Church was then effected by the development of the middle Ruthenian language into separate Rusyn, Ukrainian and Belarusian languages around 1600 to 1800. With Orthodoxy being largely suppressed during the two centuries of Polish rule, the Greek-Catholic influence on the Ukrainian population was so great that in several oblasts hardly anyone remained Orthodox”.
It was not so clear-cut in those days as we see it today. For instance Kyrill and Methodius were ordained bishops by pope Adrian II.
It was not so clear-cut in those days as it became today, rather.
Anyhow Saints Cyril and Methodius lived long before the things started to be more clear cut. At their time the Bishops of Rome were still Orthodox and their missions to the Slavs were the initiative of Patriarch Photius (very specifically to counter the Frankish Catholic inroads in the East.
The Catholic pope was Orthodox ?
@The Catholic pope was Orthodox ?
You look a bit deficient in matters of History. Education ceased to be what it used to be a long time ago.
Why don’t you enlighten me ? And also some of the other people who were under the impression that the Pope of Rome was Catholic.
“A decent respect for the opinion of mankind.”
When Dante put the tyrannicides Brutus and Cassius in the deepest part of Hell, forever chewed by Satan, the image perfectly fit in his world. The image may be weird and sickening to us, but was normal then; Dante did not deny that “decent respect”.
When, in the 21st Century, in the middle of a bloody civil war, an opinion maker takes the time to go into details about whom he wants to kill, and how the killing is to be done, whether by trial or by rapid neighbourhood lynchings, he shows lack of interest in “the decent opinion of mankind.” He does not mind offending it; he does not care about the war or about victory.
Such a writer’s main interest seems to be human sacrifice, at the altar of the Spirit of History if not of the Goddess of Reason. In 1793, her statue was installed in Notre Dame, but her cult was suppressed, replaced by Robespierre’s Supreme Being.
I hope that Mr. Ishcenko soon adds a utilitarian side to his bloody ceremonials, and calls for NATO regulation “Kosovo 1999”: the prisoners are to be well fed and cared for, until when an order for the organs available does not arrive.
But the Nazis are in charge of the schools, media, and cultural milieu. They may shed their skin and claim to simply be “good Ukrainians”, but they will still be working for Soros or Kholomoisky. And you have 23 years of this, so you can’t hope to get rid of it quickly.
Besides, even if you get rid of the Nazis, what do you do with the one-third who just hate all things Russian? One can make the case that the actual problem is that Russia has been against ideology, and didn’t want a Russian ideology in the Ukraine. But this is a bit crazy, as the strong ideology in the Western Ukraine is destined to win against the wishy-washy philosophy of, say, a Yanukovich.
Is it possible that they get to understand that the real “European Dream”, which was being negotiated by President Ianukovich until October 2013, was precisely stopped by the Americans, then swept off by the very Nazi Ukrainians who boasted so much about the “European Dream”, and that, by the fault of the Nazis, such a dream was now totally unreachable before decades, instead of being “reasonably optimistically realistic” for the end of this decade, hadn’t the negotiations stopped?
“Civil war ends in victory of one or another party. There is no doubt that we’ll win. Nevertheless, the other party won’t vanish. It’s impossible to eliminate it. Since civil war got started, it is clear that every side is supported by remarkable percentage of citizens (up to a half), otherwise the majority would suppress the minority…
Therefore, in any case we have to come to an agreement. Then the agreement can’t be a halfway one. There can be no ideological compromise with Nazism.”
OK, but then the agreement from the perspective of Western Ukraine might be something like “no Nazism, no Russian imperialism”. So the Russian language needs to be banned and Ukrainian nationalism promoted as the only possible ideal for the country. But without Nazis. However, one can doubt that the Donbass feels that that is what they have been fighting for. When they and Crimeans say that they hate the Nazis over the last 23 years, what they really mean is they hate the Ukrainian nationalists.
Why does it have to be that way? There are many countries with a multitudes of languages and religions and cultures and they can get along so why not do the same? Even in the US Spanish is common even in the government where Spanish speakers are a large number of the population. In Russia and India there are like hundreds of languages and none of them are fighting each other because their language is better or trying to ban other languages. Once you start on that path supremists come into play like in Germany and we saw where that went. What about countries like cyprus where 2 sides of opposing sides live? That is an extreme version of hos things can develop. So lets not get to that point and stop somewhere in the middle.. The problem is, this is not about language but about the right to loot and plunder by a few. Giving away too many rights would make that impossible. All these politicians are looking at it is like what do I get out of it. This entire fiasco is to railroad those opposed to their agenda to be forced to accept what is bestowed and harmful to the people who don’t want it. Nothing else! Look at the hoopla over crimea. Ukraine voted to leave the USSR and so did crimea but Ukraine said that was illegal even though they themselves did it and annexed it. Ukraine can do what ever but they should be stopped from imposing their will on others. Crimea also voted to become independent just like Ukraine and they were smacked again. So we see the result now where they know they cant remain independent and joined Russia. It was the chance to loot and plunder that is the agenda nothing else.
It has to be that way because of the common saying in the Ukraine. “Train station, ticket, Moscow”. They consider Russians and Russianism to be an imperial invasion that needs to be driven out. They are willing to compromise by allowing Russians to leave.
It is silly to compare languages in Russia with the Ukraine. Those are minor languages in a sea of Russian. What Ukrainians want is for Ukrainian to be like Russian is inside Russia. 2% of the people can speak some other language, but the dominant language and ideology are to be Ukrainian, which is essentially quite anti-Russian.
Not denying that looting and plundering are important, but identity and historical grievances are even more important to many. Galicians want revenge over WWII and what they perceive as their historical abuse by Russia. The reason for the current mess is the wishy-washy attempts by so many to compromise between the Russian-oriented folks and the anti-Russian ones. The way this has worked in practice is that the anti-Russians want a 100,000 militia of Nazis to destroy all things Russian, and a compromise by Yanukovich is that they can have 20,000. Brilliant solution.
It has to be that way because of the common saying in the Ukraine. “Train station, ticket, Moscow”.
Not a good enough answer! No matter what they think the land that these invading marauding Russians live on are their land. Their grandfathers land. You cant ask them to move.. Those who lived there before were run off by others but where do we stop that. I am sure there were someone who lived in what is proper Ukraine before it became what is now Ukraine. Can they or their descendant form 4000 years ago come back and say that’s my land.. We planted out flag there.
Thanks not how it works.. It don’t even work that way in Israel, they use that old Turkish law where those who stay on their lands don’t own it. But you cant kick them out. But if they leave the land belongs to the state hence they want to drive out people using hardship. The same as the government is kiev is using.. It does not work in palestian and it will not work here. I doubt even federalization will work now. I know it works in Canada because the French and English were not killings each other burning them so there is no enmity but there is quite a bit of resistance. That worked out.. It might have worked that way since the US imposed coup in kiev.. But this is not about language it is about greed… So I was anti Russian for a long time, I am anti European, anti American, anti middle eastern and anti china anti Japanese anti korean.. Does not mean I try to do harm to them. Then it just becomes hate, without reason or purpose.. Projecting my own weakness for my hate of others.
ukraine’s problems are not about nazis. that is just some disinformation . who has all the money? who has all the power?
Sorry, but we all saw what happened in Odessa. Nazis are the pit bulls who enable the wealthy to have power. Brute force took over the government and subdues the ordinary citizen in the west.
As I understand it, Odessa is the artistic capital of Ukraine, and in many ways an intercultural city. Currently its people are being oppressed and attempts made to deny what we witnessed there in horrifying detail. But surely when peace comes (and I so like the sound of that), to be able to speak freely about the injustices committed there will be a catharsis for many. Those suffering in the east will be able to join hands with those who have suffered in the west, with the heavy losses sustained by their fellow grieving citizens.
I think we can leave it to them all to rediscover their souls, their common nationhood. The citizenry as a whole has been suffering terribly in this time of war.
Perhaps the answers are to be found in Abraham Lincoln’s Gettysburg address, rather than any pogrom against nazi sympathizers. That repressive cult cannot stand against our yearnings for peace.
Even to be seeing light in the far distance is encouraging. Thank you for this discussion.
The discussion turns too academic, what matters is the everyday life of the people living in that ground. There will be some who will yield to reason, others will yield to force, most will yield to confomity, But, there will always be the minority who feel they are The Chosen Ones, and this is a feeling that permeates through those Sectarian voices, whether Right Sector, Svoboda, or the Territorial Batallions.
In Galicia there is that very feeling, that they are the only heirs to Kievan Rus, that their place was ussurped by the Moskals, and that their Rich and Generous Destiny was stolen by the Tsars. That is why they claim The Ukraine that extends to the Urals down the Caspian Sea.
So long as there are delusional Folk, there will be Ukrainian Supremacists, not necessarily Nazis, who will be ready to fight the Moskals whenever they find a hand that gives them a Knife.
And, yes, that Ukrainian Supremacist Sense, is inbred. It goes from generation to generation, covetly or overtly as we are witnessing today. It is breastfed from the craddle.
The discussion could be as to Why this Supremacist Idea remains fixed in the Ukrainian Psyche, and to Ukrainian I refer to Galichans, since the rest of the territory named Ukraine does not have this Pathos. Galichans want people to feel sympathy for them, to their history, to their plight.
They have no real logical arguments as to why they hate the Moskals. It is just an instinct, brute and agressive, and it has been well used by those who have the cunning to take advantage of that
hidden inferiority complex. It goes beyond the religious differences, religion is just an excuse in most cases. If there are men fighting a stupid war, it is because the family encourage them to go to war, and buy for them body armor, and night vision equipment. The Galichan female keeps warm the hearth of this discontent, and it beats healthfuly in many Galichan households.
They will continue to fight annyone who will try to resist their beliefs, be them Novorossians, or Pole, or Balts, or Germans.
They feel themselves so clever that they think they allow Others to Use them, when in fact they are using those fools who trust them. Witness Imhoff and his Photos.
Galichans will not change, it is foolhardy to believe it will happen. Best to separate them and have the Poles or Germans deal with them. For the USA, they are just useful assets, so long as they are useful.
Read up on Bismarck to learn what he thought of the Ukrainians, or Galichans.
There was no “good” side in World War 2, and the “Nazis” (a childish propaganda pejorative for National Socialist Germany) were not anymore “evil” than the US, UK and USSR under FDR, Churchill and Stalin. Am I a heretic?
I think that there is a big mistake to use the “Nazi” meme in the case of Ukrainian nationalists. They have not been and are not Nazis (not even the “Neo-Nazi” caricatures). The denunciation of “Nazism” was a Soviet slogan. Its reuse to denounce the Ukrainian nationalists is counterproductive. It can be easily dismissed because it is demonstrably not applicable to the facts on the ground. It can only reinforce the perception that it is the old Soviet Union on the offensive again. And that applies to all nationalisms in the former Soviet Republics. The “antifascist” slogans are part of a leftoid ideology which is at variance with realities, but which still lingers on.
I’m very impressed by the quality of this blog – but discouraged by the idiocy of this article. The author reminds us those who regularly reference ‘Nazis, or fascists’ are limited to the political vocabulary of grown-up children… as is demonstrated by his suggested measures to ‘out-Nazi’ the ‘Nazi’s’. The writer would do well to remember that there are in fact reasons that these gangs of thugs and low level mafia were successfully used as puppets by the Anglo-Americans to overthrow the Ukrainian state – and that this also was a lingering results of ‘Soviet-era’ methods, that he so cleverly recommends.
One positive thing I did take away from this article, was to be reminded that there are
very few true ‘good guys’ in conflicts such as these, and the few there that do exist can be easily overshadowed by people such as Rostisalv Ishchenko – who has new and improved moral reasons to kill, butcher and terrify people into a state of brainwashed compliance (anti-nazism).
I pray to God this man Rostisalv Ishchenko is an anomaly and that peace, order and friendship with Russia can be achieved in the Ukraine.