Get ready: something lethally “asymmetrical” may be about to pop up
By Pepe Escobar, posted with the author’s permission and widely cross-posted
Neither NATO nor Russia is telling us what really happened with the Moskva, the legendary admiral ship of the Black Sea fleet.
NATO because in theory, they know. Moscow, for its part, made it clear they are not saying anything until they can be sure what happened.
One thing is certain. If the Russian Ministry of Defense finds out that NATO did it, they will let loose all the dogs from Hell on NATO, as in “asymmetrical, lethal and fast”.
On Moskva’s location: it was positioned near one of 3 drilling rigs, used for monitoring a whole sector of the Black Sea with hydrophones and NEVA-BS radar, the most westward one, BK-2 Odessa, approximately 66 km northeast from Snake Island. The whole thing was integrated in the regional monitoring systems. As in everything, literally, was monitored: ships, low flying targets, smaller echoes, even the bobbing head of an unsuspecting swimmer.
So there was a quite slim chance that anything – not to mention subsonic Neptune missiles and Bayraktar drones – could have slipped through this aerial net.
So what could have possibly happened?
It could have been some kind of underwater drone, released either from some sneaky sub, or by a SBS team, coming from the western coast, with a stopover at Snake Island. Then that drone somehow managed to drill itself through the Moskva’s hull from below – and exploded its payload inside.
What follows comes from a top source in Brussels: serious, trustworthy, proven record spanning nearly two decades. Yet he may be just spreading disinformation. Or bragging. Or that may be rock solid intel.
Before we start, we should point out it’s hard to believe the Neptune/Bayraktar fairytale angle. After all, as we’ve seen, the Russian fleet had established a multidimensional surveillance/defense layer in the direction of Odessa.
The Moskva was near Odessa, closer to Romania. A year ago, the source maintains, a new phased array locator was installed on it: the illumination range is 500 km. According to the standard Ukrainian narrative, first the Moskva was hit by a drone, and the locators and antennas were smashed. The Moskva was half blind.
Then – according to the Ukrainian narrative – they launched two Neptune cruise missiles from the shore. Guidance was carried out by NATO’s Orion, which was hanging over Romania. The missiles zoomed in on the ship with the homing heads turned off, so that the radiation beam would not be detected.
So we have guidance by NATO’s Orion, transmitting the exact coordinates, leading to two hits, and subsequent detonation of ammunition (that’s the part acknowledged by the Russian Ministry of Defense).
A strategic hit
The Moskva was on combat duty 100-120 km away from Odessa – controlling the airspace within a radius of 250-300 km. So in fact it was ensuring the overlap of the southern half of Moldova, the space from Izmail to Odessa and part of Romania (including the port of Constanta).
Its positioning could not be more strategic. Moskva was interfering with NATO’s covert transfer of military aircraft (helicopters and fighter jets) from Romania to Ukraine. It was being watched 24/7. NATO air reconnaissance was totally on it.
As the Moskva “killer”, NATO may have not chosen the Neptune, as spread by Ukrainian propaganda; the source points to the fifth-generation NSM PKR (Naval Strike Missile, with a range of 185 km, developed by Norway and the Americans.)
He describes the NSM as “able to reach the target along a programmed route thanks to the GPS-adjusted INS, independently find the target by flying up to it at an altitude of 3-5 meters. When reaching the target, the NSM maneuvers and deploys electronic interference. A highly sensitive thermal imager is used as a homing system, which independently determines the most vulnerable places of the target ship.”
As a direct consequence of hitting the Moskva, NATO managed to reopen an air corridor for the transfer of aircraft to the airfields of Chernivtsi, Transcarpathian and Ivano-Frankivsk regions.
In parallel, after the destruction of the Moskva, the Black Sea Fleet, according to the source, “no longer seems to have a ship equipped with a long-range anti-aircraft missile system”. Of course a three-band radar Sky-M system remains in play in Crimea, capable of tracking all air targets at a range of up to 600 km. One wonders whether this is enough for all Russian purposes.
So what do we really have here? Fantasy or reality? There was only one way to know.
I ran the info past the inestimable Andrei Martyanov, who knew the Moskva “as Slava in 1981 when she was afloat in the Northern Bay of Sevastopol and my class which was at first summer practice on board of old cruiser Dzerzhinsky was given an extensive introduction to her. So, she was an old lady and it is too bad that she had to finish her long life this way and at this time.”
Martyanov, once again, was the consummate professional, stressing no one, at this stage, really knows what happened. But he made some crucial points: “Per NSM (if we accept this version), even with its Low Observability and GPS guidance under normal (that is sea up to state 5-6) and normal radio-permeability, even the Moskva’s old frigate radar would have seen those missiles in distances of tens of kilometers, somewhere between 15-20 for sure. NSM, as any NATO anti-shipping missile, are subsonic, with their velocity roughly 300 meters per second. That leaves, even in a 15 kilometer range, 45 seconds to detect track and develop a firing solution for whatever ‘on duty’ AD complex. More than enough reaction time.”
Martyanov also stresses, “it is impossible to hide the external impact of the anti-shipping missile – one will immediately know what hit the ship. Moreover, to hit and sink such a target as the Moskva one has to launch a salvo and not only two missiles, likely 3-4 at least. In this case, Russia would know who attacked Moskva. Does NATO know? I am positive this event has NATO written all over it, if it is not an internal sabotage which absolutely cannot be excluded at this stage. I am sure if Nebo was operational it would have seen the salvo.”
Which brings us to the inevitable clincher: “If NATO was involved, I am sure we will see some retaliation, after all, as I am on record all the time, US bases in Middle East and elsewhere are nothing more than fat prestigious targets.”
So get ready: something lethally “asymmetrical” may be about to pop up.
One thing is certain. If the Russian Ministry of Defense finds out that NATO did it, they will let loose all the dogs from Hell on NATO, as in “asymmetrical, lethal and fast”.
This sentence adds years to my already long life…
Thanks Pepe… always good to read…
They will probably talk very serious with their “partneris” and tell them if this happens again
then there will be serious consequences. Sorry reading how “Ukraine” = Nato was able to strike
as a target in russia 100 km from the border i am slowly starting to doubt the resolve of the
Russian government. There will either be some kind of coup against Putin or this will go on and on
an on for a long time and it will become the new normal for russians that something somewhere is
Be careful what you wish for. Putin is currently polling at 80% positive job approval. Putin is a moderate … the chance of a coup replacing him with a liberal democrat is nil. Communists are the second favourites with western friendly candidates polling in low single digits. If anything Putin would be replaced with a hard liner who would go all in on the war.
u re also right. There is unfortunately NOBODY who might replace Putin. All the others are much worse and western kissing partners. Putin has only one problem: He is a softy
Otherwise Putin would be a perfect leader but with the western beasts Russia needs somebody like Alexander the great.
Kadyrov can replace Putin. Put him in charge and watch western “partners” being drop-kicked from Russia’s diplomatic jargon.
Kadyrov is a brave man but also an impulsive bigmouth who is a very easy target for any Western provocation.
As for the articles “asymmetric response”: never underestimate the US/UK and the vast resources of all kinds at their disposal plus their extreme sinister attitude.
There was a grenade launcher attack on security forces in Transnistria’s capital today. Reportedly, Romania, Moldavia and Ukraine are preparing a full-scale attack from both sides (moldova and Ukraine) on Transnistria which could start within days.(The Moskva would have been crucial to monitor the airspace there, btw). The only thing that might hold these 3 countries back is a stern Russian warning that such an attack would mean all-out and open Nato-Russia war, not merely a proxy war. Lavrov’s recent hint at the growing risk of nuclear war are imho directed at this potential new theatre of warfare. Militarily, transnistria doesn’t stand much of a chance in such a 2-front war and Russia has little options to come to its rescue. But quickly and pre-emptively accepting transnistria’s accession request to the RF might be a game changer. Not because ukraine and her allies would hesitate to attack in this case, they certainly won’t. But because it would then be an open Nato-attack on Russian territory (even if Nato refuses to acknowledge it). Brussels might rethink the risk (much to the chagrin of warsaw and kyiv)
Removed. Mod. But once Nato takes the proxy-war gloves off and openly attacks Russian territory, it is quite easy (though no less painful) to switch from a limited special operation to another velikaja otechestvennaja vojna with everything that comes along with it.
I surely hope it doesn’t get that far but realistically, the path seems almost pre-determined at this point by Nato’s and Russia’s determination.
In all Pentagon war games. all limited theatre wars between nuclear powers alway escalate to nuclear exchange.
Yes putting a Muslim as leader of Russia will change things !
Not true. Dimitry Rogozin could replace Putin.
Rogozin is a nationalist – they won’t vote for him; Zyuganov is not a communist, they are just exploiting the brand; Kadyrov is good, but he is a Muslim, he has no chance. Putin – no other options. There is also Shoigu and Medvedev. Perhaps Mishustin or Dyumin.
Yes, it’s looking like replacement with a “hard-liner” who is willing to follow through on the war is what’s needed.
It isn’t a War.
It’s a Special Military Operation designed to destroy the Rashist army.
Please take off-topic discussion to the MFC or OT. -The Mod.
Zhirinovsky somehow comes to mind.
@kotromanic. Absolute right! Official US partners today announced that Russia is a paper tiger and Ukraine will win the war. Nevertheless, they have stated that since starting of SMO russian army is not even a regional power.
anymore. Respect looks somewhat different……..
As Sun Tzu said, you should appear weak when you are strong (and strong when you are weak).
Not a fan of the go slow approach at all. Does it really prevent casualties or does it just spread them out more? Meanwhile, it allows the enemy to plan and undertake endless provacations.
I would like to see a hardliner take over or the armed forces stage a coup and conduct a proper military campaign. People are getting very angry. Russia is being attacked almost daily now. So much for targeting the decision-makers. This seems like another idle threat much like targetting arms convoys. Is Russia going to hand the US another diplomatic note protesting the sending of arms to Ukraine? That has been met with derision, laughter and scorn.
Would somebody please explain to me how in the first three days, Russia could go anywhere they wanted in Ukraine and now after two months of pounding the AFU, we such tiny incremental gains? Ukraine was prepared for war, so forget about that argument. It is being dragged out unnecessarily. Time for the Armed Forces of Russia to do what is necessary, Kremlin instructions be damned.
If the armed forces could they would end this insanity tomorrow and go home, round up all the ex-St Petersburg KGB gangsters – Patrushev, Sechin etc and shoot them and purge Russia of the FSB goons raping the country so they can live in luxury.
pepe and andrei are so passionate pro-russian that at times they seem to diverge slightly from rationale thinking.
As in, “asymmetrical, lethal and fast” ? Guys, then it would have already happened. Russia certainly knows exactly what sunk the ship. If they did not know, then they’d better retire from world affairs entirely.
Putin on the other hand is methodical and rational; look at how softly (for lack of a better word) he moved in Syria. Look how cautiously he deals with the cancer state’s daily bombings there. Trivially, he might be trying to avoid for real WWIII. Otherwise he would be shooting down those evil planes and he would have annihilated the american forces illegally occupying Syria.
That honors Putin but what good his soft approach does to Russian POWs? Sailors of Moskva? confiscated russian assets in western partner countries?
Recall that Hitler allowed the British forces to retreat at Dunkirk as he did not want to fight Britain. Similarly Putin does not want to fight NATO directly.
But it is almost guaranteed that he will have to eventually. Hence the US/NATO using Ukraine to play rope-a-dope like Ali vs Foreman. Ali won that fight but lost the battle of life to Parkinson. George Foreman is still selling BBQ grills and preaching.
There is a metaphor there if you want to figure it out ;-)
That old chew used again. The Luftwaffe chose to use Stukas instead and tank supply lines were over-extended since Guderin had raced ahead. British and French rearguard had caused problems for German advance and it was a thrust that split French and British forces which remained engaged each side of the German spearhead
The German generals asked Hitler 3 times for permission to attack the British at Dunkirk and they were refused and threatened with court martials.
The reality is that Hitler had been financed by the British – how else could the German economy have recovered so fast? Hitler thought the deal was on and wanted to make peace with GB. He openly admired their control of the Empire and much else.
Meh Dunkirk is a propaganda puff piece.
The battle lasted three days and every single defending soldier was killed or captured.
In what world can 100000 regular soldiers in dugin positions be expected to be defeated in less time than that?
With low cloud cover ensuring airpower was negated.
Much of what is written in international law presumes that there is a formal state of war between the parties that is justly declared under international law. NATO is legally a set of interlocking alliances, much like World War I, where nations guarantee their support in the event of an attack on any one, in whatever form they deem correct. We know how well that worked out in WW I, whether they call it a ‘defensive’ alliance or not.
In fact, we now have an informal state of war between all the parties but no one will say as much.
There’s so many special military operations and facets of hybrid war in effect at this point, that if we don’t have Cold War, and they refuse to admit it, then we have Cold Peace, and if we don’t have Hybrid War, then we must have Hybrid Peace, verging on Nuclear Peace, after Nuclear War of course.
We can’t have a peace movement when no one is allowed to say that there is a war going on, a hybrid war, a Cold War, or even NATO expansion and militarization going on, as well as hybrid war, and soldiers from all sides are dying.
It’s pure propaganda, and the truth is fallen in the street. Truth is the first casualty of war. If denial of the truth is a psyop, the empire of lies has won a few battles but the fight goes on.
Nobody knows anybody any more, and every NATO member professes not to know Russia.
“How can there be peace without people understanding each other; and how can this be if they don’t know each other?”
Lester B. Pearson
Nobody is allowed to know that the only peace we may get from NATO continuing on this present course is the ‘peace of’ extinction.
“The choice, however, is as clear now for nations as it was once for the individual: peace or extinction.”
Lester B. Pearson
There was a time when Canada had some good peacemakers. They knew what war was like.
“As a soldier, I survived World War I when most of my comrades did not.”
Lester B. Pearson
I was reading earlier today (26/4/22) on Zero Hedge that the USA is going to reopen its Embassy in Kiev. Is this possible or comlete BS? I though Russia had closed down all Air space in Ukraine or is this BS ? Plus they’re taking about another meeting in Kiev with top US officials.
“Moscow has reacted to the Sunday visit of top US officials to Kiev where they met with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in which Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin discussed specific weapons systems to soon be transferred into Ukraine, also as Zelensky and his team reportedly requested heavier weaponry and in larger quantities.”
How is this possible ? Can someone please tell me if this is BS or not . I can’t get my head around why Russia would let that plane land instead of shooting it down -wiping out at least 3 enemies!
I totally agree. What this “arrangement” implies is that Washington is actually running this war, not the Ukrainians and they have decided to now run it right from Kiev–after all, they claim that Russia was driven out of Kiev in the Battle thereof and they outright admitted at the Kiev meeting that their primary purpose was to degrade Russia’s power and capabilities. Moreover, although Washington will allow the Ukies to shoot down civilian jetliners (commit all manner of atrocities and war crimes), they know that Russia is so cowed by Western propaganda that they would never dare to shoot down an American or Nato plane, even if laden with nuclear bombs let alone its top military leaders. So, Moscow has de-facto ceded its “no fly zone” over Ukie territory. Perhaps Nato troops will now impose one against Russia?
Russia refuses to escalate actions because it fears the inevitable quantum escalations that Washington and Nato will immediately reciprocate with. It’s not a winning formula. Tell me what’s gonna happen in Syria now that Turkey has banned Russian flights through its airspace. There is no route from Russia to Syria that does not go over a hostile country (unless they can finagle permission from Iraq). Also, since the Bosporus was closed by Turkey, there is no way for any Russian reinforcement of its port at Tartus. Entry into the Mediterranean must be blocked to Russia by the Brits at Gibraltar. Seems that Washington could blitz Syria any time it likes now. Only direct fighting against Nato will change that. Perhaps Washington is waiting for that moment with glee when it responds with a nuclear first strike? Washington has many escalatory moves not open to Russia, if Putin wants to avoid WWIII.
If Russia chooses not to escalate to WWIII status (who can blame them?), their only way of winning this now, in the face of never-ending Western resupply of Ukraine with arms, intel, foreign fighters, probably high-tech electronic devices and state-of-the-art drones and missile systems, is with more troops on the ground and scorched earth “shock and awe” type offensive attacks like America uses until Zelensky and his fascists are so degraded through relentless attrition that they cannot continue. But then, Washington is hoping that Russia is so bankrupted by the process that they will be easy pickings for a Nato invasion of Russia. So, sooner or later Russia will be forced to fight WWIII against the West. Just hope China sees the writing on the wall and lets loose against the West with everything it has. Doubling teaming Uncle Sam may be the only winning ticket and the only way to stop short of nuclear armageddon.
Turn about is fair play, and if Washington did sink the Moskva with a new generation ship killer missile as Pepe Escobar speculates, I would encourage China to make one of those carrier task force groups “freely navigating” in the South China Sea a veritable target practice shoot ’em-up with its famous ship killers. Not sure if Russia possesses this type of weapon, but if they’ve got ’em, smoke every Nato vessel in the Black Sea. Lots of pieces will quickly come off the board, leaving only the nukes as the power pieces. Perhaps Nato and the EU will decide to stop being Washington’s beeotch at that point and sue for peace.
The guy is cautious. Smart. An Iraqi missile split a us hull in Sts of Hormuz 35 years ago, and Moskva is of that vintage. Same tech, us recon and fire solution, boom.
The us is dumb, are they that dumb, to actually do the deed? Best prove that one solidly.
I am on record saying it was definitely helped along by Nato , and Russia knows it. So why the pretence by both that they do not know the full story? It is to prevent WW III. Russia pretends it wasn’t Nato , and NATO shuts up so as not to rub Russia’s nose in it.
You need to ask yourself what was the ship doing only sixty km off Moldova’s coast? Seems reckless to me unless it was absolutely necessary for a high priority benefit. What was it?
Either way, Russia bombed the US /UK airforce base Welford in the UK , even though everyone says it was a “fireworks explosion “. There is your answer and your preliminary slap back.
What are you taking ? I want the same !
I also mentioned this last week.
What a huge “coincidence”!
I agree 100%.
What was it doing there? Monitoring Transnistria and the airspace around it, for instance? I commented a bit higher up in this comment section that a two-front full-scale attack by Ukraine and Romania/moldavia on transnistria seems imminnent.
And who is going to do it? Ukraine, as you may have noticed, is very busy. And Moldova? Really? The 2nd poorest country in Europe after ukraine?
Let’s wait for some sort of an investigation as far as the moskva goes. Speculation is tiresome.
Romania has a capable army (easy to dress them up in Moldavian uniforms!) and the Ukrainians have some free reserves in the West and near Odessa. Plus special forces of the UK that will certainly operate there, too, if need be. And of course they will enjoy full Nato logistics, intelligence and satellite monitoring support and crucially, Russia doesn’t completely own the airspace over transnistria /south-western Ukraine. Transnistria also houses one of the largest artillery ammunition storages of the Russian forces (reportedly still some 20,000 tones of grenades, shells and rockets), so there is quite a worthwhile military target there, too, in addition to the political prize to humiliate Russia and brutally crush a staunch pro-Russian population. That may well be worth the price of a couple tenthousand death soldiers on Ukrainian/Romanian and transnistrian sides.
According to all that I can find, a warehouse burned that was not on the base. I doubt any Americans or Brits were killed as were Russians on the Moskva.
Moldova’s coast? Moldova is landlocked! I lived in Chisinau for a while before making Odessa my home.
Moldova swapped territories with Ukraine about 20 years ago and built the Port of Giurgiulești. It has access to the Black Sea.
I doubt anything would happen. Sputnik just published a little blurb saying that they were suspending military operations around Azovtal and creating a humanitarian corridor for it. This operation is coming off as somewhat of a joke to be honest. Any existential threat should be met swiftly and decisively. If we get into June and nothing really changes, people are going to start wondering about this whole thing. The fact that people think this operation should last up to a year is mind boggling, when one side does not have a navy or air force. It seems like it is a totally manufactured event with both sides dancing with each other.
Totally agree. Started to suspect this some time ago. All parts are involved for the same agenda. Looks like continuation of COVID plandemic…
It is really time for Russia to apologise for exceeding your attention span
20 years in Afghanistan and Iraq, 10 years in Vietnam, 7 years in Syria, and the US still lost.
Russia has “lost” in Ukraine becuase they are two months in … ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’m starting to think that the majority of the west is sharing a handful of neurons.
What exactly is the problem with creating a humanitarian corridor for civilians to leave Azovstal? It is surrounded so the Ukie nationalists and their NATO friends are not going anywhere.
Problem is that many TRUE russian supporters starting to wonder :
Is it a SMO or SHO?
(SHO Special Humanitarian Operation)
You are jumping into accustations, when Russians just gave every day 2 hour opportunity to leave bunkers of Azovstal and for the rest of the day there is artillery fire and aerial attacks as usual. Storming these system of tunnels is just loosing hundreds of the best troops for nothing. Nazis just put themselves in maximum security prison and none will come deblocking them.
Your name and your remarks make you sound Scottish. I am sorry if that is true, as you typify the Western attitude of crashing in with maximum violence – and to hell with civilians.
Why should the SMO not take some time? If a person has a brain glioma, a neurosurgeon proceeds very slowly and cautiously. After due “reconnaissance” – scans and such – the skull is opened and the surgeon probes with extreme care and delicacy, trying to remove the growth while avoiding important brain tissue, blood vessels, etc.
You seem to be recommending the alternative approach of beheading the patient.
My thoughts too.
Will upset the true believers, but really….
How does something like this happen and there is no response?
Belive it or not, but accidents in research laboratories happen. It is better to wait for official investigation instead of jumping straight into conclusion.
It happens a lot more easily than one suspects and it does not need to even involve specialty chemicals.
Linseed Oil Can Burn Your House Down
As you can see above, all it takes is an accidental spill and incorrect disposal (one soaked rag will do it) in a room full of other trash. That makes one think about all of the folklore tales one hears about “spontaneous combustion”… maybe there is a basis behind the exaggerated stories?
Lets wait for the Russian investigation. IMHO
The West came up with pictures of little girls trapped under Azovstal. Russian counter with opening humanitarian corridor and stopping offensive. What is not clear?
The fact that neither of aforementioned is true, doesn’t change a thing.
If you think that this is manufactured by both sides then you posted in the wrong site because this one site has made abundantly clear that NATO manufactured this war.
“It seems like it is a totally manufactured event with both sides dancing with each other.”
I refuse to believe this even though it’s by far the most reasonable explanation of what’s going on. Am yet to be convinced this is not a ‘phony war.’
Also, it really does seem a continuation of covid etc. but it also could be an adventitious response to it. In other words, different global power networks are struggling for supremacy with ‘we the people’ as usual the poor saps looking on with little idea of what is going on above the clouds and beyond the mountain ranges our gazes cannot penetrate.
Moskva not hit by missiles:
Not a complete expose since they don’t analyze the damage that actually happened on the Moskva, but the “fake” video shows what really happens when a missile hits a war ship.
If you look at the pictures of the Moskva after it was hit, you see that one place burning was a bank of missiles. Any hit there would have blown the ship up like the “fake” video (it is real, just not of the Moskva)
Here are pictures of the Moskva before and after. Compare to the video being circulated.
I love the maritime expertise hard at work. The bottom line, you just don’t know the full extent of what happened onboard, nor do I, but I cam make a rough evaluation based on the damage seen.
The video of the test ship getting blown up is rather dramatic, but did you know that these target ships are actually prepared for such tests, emptied out and some bulkheads removed if it is a SINKEX, so the results will spectacular and of course, the size of the vessel makes a difference too.
If you had notice like I did, the very black damage on the hull, underneath the CIWS, not quite where the P-1000 Vulkan missiles “silos” are, if they were there, we don’t know.
There are two areas of damage on the ‘Moskva’ on those photos. The other area is equally intriguing, I won’t spoil your curiosity, have a look.
Some of us have already worked on maritime casualty, explosive damage and fire cases, as with any maritime casualty investigation, at the salvage stage, assessments need to be done quickly even if there isn’t the full picture. I think that the Captain of the Moskva made a very difficult decision to evacuate the ship, but he did so and probably saved many of his crew as doing so, as the evacuation took place in daylight, with the assistance of 2 or 3 auxiliary ships.
Best option on the table : Nuclear War.
Unleash the dogs from hell and liberate all the souls entrapped on human body.
:) some say they want to end reincarnation circle, but it is the right time now for everybody? Yet, the way some do the things here is preventing people to reach enlightening. Instead they do things so that people go further down the evolution (spiritual one) path.
They cultivate pornography, greed, lgbtq, pedophily, individualism, fear, fear, fear, making people believe the only thing that matters is life in this Earth, now, that nothing more exists and many other things.
But dunno if the nuclear winter is the solution, as there is a say: as above, so below.
My believe is that we as Humanity will destroy and rebuild fron scratch 9so the Planet) for as many times as necessary till we will make a perfect society and this is doable, but the values we have today are totally wrong, as with the value of ”one should take for himself as much as possible on the back of others” is the opposite of the perfect world. We need to cultivate each child depending on his/her natural abilities and lots of things, but so far is too much dirt in the world, now the world is cleansing, we shall see what will be in like 3 years, when this cleansing phaze will be amost over
Nah, they won’t get nuke war they so desperate to get unless Zionists in Israhell is ready to get obliterated by Iranian and Hezbollah Missiles. Also, the house of saudi pimps… Houthi is keen to annihilate them once and forever.
Actually the nuclear winter will not come even if the whole nuclear arsenal will be deployed. The feargemoning is real, they scare us so that people agree with spending more on weapons and stay chill, not protesting against inflation etc rest of things that get them into ”you will own nothing and be happy” – that is now a possibility for the western world, where people most of them are renters and not own the houses anyway.
The nuclear arsenal today will only destroy some cities, some small parts of some countries and thats it. Also the Satanists know this is the only world for them, so they will not deploy nukes, they know they can incarnate here only, no place for them (a good one) in another dimension.
They know how to do this: incarnate ”preferentially”, but thats it, so they need this Planet alive and well, this is why they want to save the Planet and nature, fauna, but not the people, they want some 500 million … as they need to consume lots. W3 see now: they go in Glasgow meeting and others for the green deal – empovering people – that forums Putin and Xi didnt went or validate with a videocall nada.
Where they had an Armada of Private Planes and staff and consumed resources more than a ”underdeveloped country” consumes in a year so they say that the rest should rennounce eating beef and driving cars and so on, while they had it all over there. Same crowd in Sicily two years ago and in other places, they have some sort of meeting/forum/summit each monthin different places of the world and with different names. But the bottom line is that they donțt do anything except to consuma lots and have a guge carbon footprint while preeching the others to ”be green”.
I so wish to see them gone forever, this whole Planet will be so peacefull and beautiful without these lunatics that did all the Evil in the world and so many genocides in so many continents if not all… but they are the good ones lol
I watched the Orthodox Easter service in Moscow. Pres. Putin was there. Several video shots of him standing alone. In my view the man was under great distress. It appears he left about half way through the service. I think he knows what he has to do. The world will see things coming soon that it would rather not see.
I watched this major event and thought it was not only Putin who looked on edge, but how could they not be after what they have all been through during the last months ? The current situation also has been brewing for a much longer time. My sense before the military invasion operation was one of immense vulnerability for President Putin, all who stand with him in Russia. I never felt we had the whole story.
I watched him too, he struck me as torn between wanting to return to work but needing to attend the service. Not so much a look of great distress, but more having the look of a mother who is not sure she turned the clothes iron off and needs to run home to check.
I also think after viewing his meeting with Shoigu in his office and the concern on their faces that their real worry is the biolabs. The materials from some of those labs were taken away. Their concern may be they do not have answers to the questions; what was taken and where is it now.
Remember the purpose of those biolabs was to devise ways to kill Russians. Lots of Russians.
What does it matter how the Moskva was hit? It is without a doubt a big egg on the Russian military’s face no matter what actually happened. However, tactically and strategicly it is really nothing for either side. At best it is an interesting sideshow. Everyone knows NATO has been and still is totally involved in the Ukraine war. There probably would not be a war going on in the Ukraine right now if it was not for NATO fostering it.
Your view has great merit to it. This is a war between Russia and those in Ukraine who have very unwisely allowed themselves to become NATO’s proxy cannon fodder.
Assalaamu alaykum w w. You are right. Russia don’t want full blown nuclear war.
So they do everything they can to prolong the time before that inevitable event by making it as difficult as possible for the “west” to launch that war.
But since they “St Vladimir and Co” knows war is inevitable they do what they know is best regardless of what people think (inside and outside of Russia).
May God’s peace and blessings be upon Russia and its people🤲
I agree with your views. I will just add a little context. The West has refused any form of authentic and respectful dialogue with Russia for many years. The mind of the West is still closed to dialogue after nearly two months of war. This will escalate until the moment when the US start to feel pain on American soil, I am afraid, unless some political earthquake hits Washington. Putin is dealing with childish, immature and unreasonable characrers on the Western site. Maybe he will be very patient and find economical and political weapons that will save him of the more destructive military options he currently has. Don’t forget China is an ally of Russia and together with Russia they have much political and financial punch.
No need for anything rash. Time is running out for the Empire of Lies. Russia and China need to merely hold out and continuing as they are. The West is falling further and further into decline.
Even if the Moskva was a NATO job, revenge is a dish best served cold.
And the bill, Sir, in Rubles, if you don’t mind?
Moses, I agree with you. For some time I’ve believed the wests rapid decent into insanity and ruin. And maybe the rest of the world’s hanging on by its fingernails until the inevitable happens.
No need for anything rash.
I don’t believe the missile thing, either it was misinformation, or someone’s private speculation adding to the rumour somewhere along the line. But the bit about getting in the aircraft is more plausible. Maybe a sabotage team from below, and maybe the local surveillance systems were jammed or blocked or taken out by US AWACS planes, or whatever. Russia knows.
According to Martyanov the S550 and other radars in Russia can track even a jet on the runway in the UK, let alone something in Eastern Europe, so there is obviously something else going on; most likely there is a specific route that aircraft can take very low, maybe from Romania through the Carpathian mountains or something, where most of the flight can be kept out of sight of any radar in Russia. Russia would know that route, and the location of Moskva would have been calculated to keep it fully covered.
The question is, if the Moskva was hit did Russia not immediately fly in an AWACS over western Ukraine? Eastern Ukraine ought to be very thoroughly covered from multiple angles, the only issue should be Western Ukraine.
No matter how the Moskva was hit, Russia would have known very quickly – or more likely in real-time, and even before the actual hit would have known that she was under attack. Martyanov mentioned rumours of multiple levels of attack on the air defence, although that was only rumours. In any case, Russia is not going to respond straight away, because Russia controls escallation dominance not NATO.
As far as triggering WW3 is concerned it makes no difference because WW3 is already FULLY triggered. The US and NATO started this war, control Ukrainian targetting, provide targetting data, provided the weapons, ammunition and training, tactical planning, communications, satellite data, intelligence intercepts, fortified bunkers, and even top level NATO officers in large numbers. This war is every bit US/NATO as much as Azov or Ukrainian armed forces. The US thought they could presecute this war against Russia and win, but Russia out-smarted them, out-fought them, out-teched them and out-maneuvered them at every step. From the start the US committed themselves to WW3, because they thought they could win. Now they know they will lose. Either they can sue for unconditional surrender to Russia (not going to happen) or they will double down, which is all they are capable of doing when they are blinded by hysteria and uncontrollable panic.
Russia has exclusive escalation dominance. It is not in Russia’s interest to start all-out warfare with NATO at this stage. But it will come, at the optimal time for Russia. In the meantime the US/NATO are very generously throwing half their critical reserves of old equipment (and some new), and huge amounts of ammunition onto the bonfire for destruction at Russia’s leisure, which is very much to Russia’s advantage when the fighting starts in earnest. They are donating some of their top weapons and strategic communications systems to Russi’s analysts, so that Russia can compromise them in time for the main battle. Isn’t that what someone blinded by hysteria and panic typically does?
Russia has announced that she will remove NATO from eastern Europe, and she will do so – in her own time and according to her own schedule. But since US/NATO have doubled down in the way they have, US and NATO will have to be permanently defanged and knackered at the same time – all with stand-off weapons, no ground war.
Let’s pray the ‘stand off weapons’ factories are well protected, otherwise, WW3 will be over before it starts.
The petro-dollar is mortgaged to the hilt. There is no way America can ever pay back what’s owed and promised.
What to do? Oh ya, start a war. Worked every time in the past. Let’s just do it again.
Ok but with who?
Well Russia has got a lot of natural resources that we could use to pay down the dept and we could steal alot of their petro dollars too. And with the expansion of NATO all the way across Europe this shouldn’t be to hard.
OK but what about the EU and NATO?
Hell we own NATO and who cares about the EU? Remember Newland told us that years ago. Besides the invading hordes will soon overrun them.
OK but what about Russia and Putin they’ll fight back ya know?
Ya I know but it won’t be us getting killed it’s gonna be the Ukrainians. Haven’t you been paying attention the last 8 years while we’ve been shelling the Donbas? Hell we had McCain and Lindsey Graham and Amy Klobuchar in there in 2016, whipping up hate and providing arms and money.
OK but how are ya gonna start a war to take Russia’s money and resources and not be decoupled from the rest of the world? Nobody wants a world war.
Well we’ll get Russia to start it so it doesn’t look like we planned it this way.
Internet, come on man you really need to get up to speed here. Look there’s 100 thousand Ukraine troops on the Donbas border and we have been shelling them for 8 years. Putin knows this. So we start a internet campaign and feed him with info from our Chinese friends. He’ll strike 1st cause that’s his philosophy.
But what about America, how are you gonna convince the population?
Did you not see the sheep respond to the covid hoax? They believe anything they are told these days. I got rid of the propaganda laws in 2012, that’s all we feed them these days.
OK then it’s a rap. Vicki, Tony, Val you guys get on this stat. Call CNN, MSNBC and the rest and give em the scoop to put out tonight about Russia invading Ukraine in say 3 days or so. I’ll try to explain it to Joe but I think I can get him to say a couple of coherent words together about Putin invading Ukraine. Oh and don’t forget Dorsey and Zuckerberg get them in on it to.
Oh and btw the powers that be are ordering this so don’t F this up or our heads will roll.
It’s really all about money and the petro dollars final death throes as money has been the root of all evil since the dawn of time.
He who gambles with conjecture, projects a rosy future.
Thank you for the calm assesment. I got a bit frustrated with all the people with their pants on fire here.
In my opinion it has take 30 years of patience building up to this moment, there is no rush. Time is on the Russian side, while the Clock is running out for Empire. Realistically I think we are talking months before it starts to disintegrate by itself. Why waster human life fighting it’s still powerful millitary. It should be avoided, if at all possible. Shit rot by itself, it doesn’t need any help.
“No need for anything rash. Time is running out for the Empire of Lies. Russia and China need to merely hold out and continuing as they are. The West is falling further and further into decline”.
100% agree. Both China and Russia take a historical view of events. US has always required “immediate gratification”, both large and small scale.
Statement from the russian admirality: fire on board- > internal explosion -> bad seaway -> fire under control ->under tow ->bad seaway -> sinking in 50 meter of water due to rolling.
If this statement is true, there is a possibility, hardly anyone is mentionig it. Fire on board during regular maintenance work, getting out of hand. Shit happens. (an oily rag left unprotected can ignite by itself)
10 years ago, I was with my sailing boat +- 50 nm away, where the Moskva cought fire.When we left the river Danube in Sulina/Romania, with the mast not set (we waited for the marina in Constanza), with a weatherforecast, predicting perfect weather, we encounterd a horrible seaway during the night and the mast strapped on deck started to move.We rolled guardrail – guardrail for the whole night. Wind was not to strong.
The black sea is relativly small, surrounded with very different landscapes: mountains (Turkey and Belarus), very big flat Danube delta (Romania and Ukraine) and half/half in Romania. As we found out during our trip from Sulina to the Bosporus, the black sea can be very very bad. As bad as the open Pacific in the tropical convergence zone. We did not encounter strong wind. But the seaway was horrible. There is always a chance, that somewhere there is bad weather and due to the small size, the waves propagate across the water.
I can belive the statement from the admirality. The ship was experience stabilty problems (after the fire and explosions) due to the sea. Fire on a ship is very common.
No expert here, but trawlers encounter such seaway all the time – it is vitally important to always have power, heavy motors running all the time.
As far as I know the Moskva was being towed – had it lost power? That is a death sentence.
Belarus on Black see coast?
Lukashenka will be happy to hear he has beachfront property now.
Statement from the russian admirality: fire on board- > internal explosion -> bad seaway -> fire under control ->under tow ->bad seaway -> sinking in 50 meter of water due to rolling.
All confirmed, the storm conditions, with gusts of up 50km/h in the early hours of the 14th of April was a death sentence. Still the tugs managed 25 – 30mn of towage.
Thank you. Suspected the same based on Black Sea being so enclosed making it most likely an extremely choppy zone with only slight winds. You have confirmed this.
Irony: if this was an old sailing vessel they could have patched that leak with a couple of layers of sails lashed around the hull which, with good pumps, would have got them into safe harbor. But being a mechanically powered beast, no such option. You’d think military vessels like this would have sophisticated patching capabilities though. (Like 2-300 hull-wrapping fabrics like parachute silks in between layers of which could be pumped hydraulic cement to make an almost instant hull. But what do I know?)
Would not surprise me in the slightest if the retaliation was to shoot down the NATO EW/surveillance aircraft patrolling the Black Sea and Ukrainian border. Would be a proportional move although they may want to wait until the ground situation in Donbass is clearer.
Russia does not have element of surprise… Russia is playing by NATO and western rules that they have set for others.
You can only beat a fool, evil, idiot etc. at their own game… Starting with those Ukranian POW’s just simply do the same thing they did to the Russian POW’s and send the video directly to their families alongside of the video of what the Ukranians did to Russia POW’s.
This war is very psychological and Russia is behind the curve on this.
Secondly, I can’t seem to find anywhere online etc. to donate money to the people of Eastern Ukraine… I am sure my little donation can help bring to light there arebpeople that stand with them with their pockets as well, not just moral support.
Lastly, turn off the gas to Europe asap… it will tough for Russia but that’s something the Europeans need to make them act right.
Main supply line from Russia to Europe is currently on fire. Seems the Orcs feel what’s good for them is good for the EU.
I am not certain but i think it’s the Ukrainians that did it… In other words the Ukrainians know what hurts the Europeans and doing this to really hurt them… Question is why is Russia playing checkers and Ukraine playing chess with the Europeans?
A lion or crocodile goes for the neck of their prey and not their feet… It’s just the law of the jungle and Russia is in a jungle with these animals and have to start acting like it.
Well now…the UK Daily Mail newspaper announced that they had accumulated a small fortune in donations for the Ukraine from UK readers…Up to now, the Daily Mail reporters were all essentially supporting the Neo-Nazi Banderites….but this latest escapade, to send vital emergency food supplies to the Ukraine in a long convoy of vehicles, did come as a surprise…as the final destination is Lugansk…
So there you have it…a rescue operation by the British, to help those poor starving refugees in Lugansk…
notwithstanding that this is a territory which is mainly populated by Russian-Ukrainians and that there is currently a rather large amount of military activity there…
So why has the Daily Mail chosen Lugansk as the final destination?
As a spoiler of course…there will be journalists joining this convoy of humanitarian aid…so it is easy to see the next Daily Mail headlines “Russians deliberately attack aid convoy, preventing humanitarian aid”…even if it might be more likely the Ukrainians firing on the vehicles)
Quite apart from the reality that the type of food that they aim to ship across is the type of food that the British assume that the Ukrainians need…and not what the Ukrainians are used to …big difference…
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes :-)
Best regards, Spiral
I would be reasonable to expect that those trucks are mostly filled with ammunition, with a few boxes of tomato beans in front to cover the real cargo. This was done in the UN humanitarian convoys going into Syria, and I’m sure countless other places.
You can just see how the recently deployed UK SAS will diguise themselves as medical/humanitarian workers, while conducting sabotage. This is official, no secret. There is no ethics what so ever left, if there ever was.
No, Russia has the high moral ground on POW treatments. Also, that is evil.
“Starting with those Ukranian POW’s just simply do the same thing they did to the Russian POW’s and send the video directly to their families alongside of the video of what the Ukranians did to Russia POW’s.”
Yea … at the beginning if WW2 bombing cities was referred to as “terror bombing” with the Spanish city of Guernica as the example of this tactic. Did “terror bombing” (“strategic” bombing today) terrify Germans into surrender? How about the Japanese or the British? Vietnamese? Did German atrocities against civilians in Russia cause them to give up? How about the atrocities in retaliation against partisans in Belarus or Yugoslavia?
All mistreatment of Russian POW’s and the trolling of their mothers will do is create a feeling of vengence and revenge against Ukrainians. They are dehumanizing themselves in the eyes of the Russians and justifying the violence against them.
“Lastly, turn off the gas to Europe asap”
It’s a source of revenue and European politicians will use it to frame Russians as the enemy of Europeans. They will blame the misery they face on Russia for cutting off the gas instead of politicians for denying them the gas.
A little bit of everything comes in handy… You play based on what’s on the field.
I’m in my 40’s and as a child growing up in Africa all I saw on TV is Russia is evil, Russians will eat you alive, Russians are not humans, and for some reason I believed it’s true and wished everything not good on Russians.
I immigrated to North America about 20 years ago and I started seeing things differently… How?… I had this North American roommate who was a very nice guy but hated the Native Indians so much that I was confused why would this guy that I thought was nice be so cruel to Native Indians?
Spoke to Native Indians and I heard their history and stories first hand and it all all made sense… Then I realized all the western cowboy movies on TV treated Native Indians as criminals… I asked my roommate why he dislikes Natives so much and his response was like they are lazy people feeding of his tax dollars…. I could go on and and on on this topic but to conclude Russia have to hit hard and very very hard if not the collective west will do to Russia the imaginable such as they did to the Native Indians when they poisoned them (Native Indians).
The collective west don’t give a mice or rat behind about Russian children, woman and men… Again, Russia needs to hit hard and very very hard.
Russia should change the rules of the game; doing the same thing over and over again will make no tangible difference but just delay the next war a couple of years.
nothing like adding more and more possibilities to answer a question you do not know the answer to…..we are supposed to believe that with all the technology and sophisticated abilities known to exist that Russia at this point still has no idea what caused the sinking?
it seems, launching an unstoppable nuclear missile around the globe travelling at 10 times the speed of sound…..is easier than determining how a ship was sunk….
can we all agree that no one!…is telling the truth and creating fiction to include words like ..”If NATO was involved, I am sure we will see some retaliation…bla bla..”….serve no purpose since….enough time has passed that any retaliation would have already occurred…..
final point is if….it was caused by internal sabotage…..wouldnt telling the world serve a greater porpose to the West than even hiding they were behind its sinking?
to many strange things are going on…fires and explosions of buildings…..everyone with a camera wants to explain them…..no one has been very convincing.
“we are supposed to believe that with all the technology and sophisticated” kind of like curing cancer and eliminating the covid virus. Humans are not as all powerful, knowledgeable, and skillful as some people believe. It is easier to blab hot air out of your mouth claiming expertise than it is to actual become a useful expert.
What are the odds that Russia does not know for sure yet if NATO attacked Moskva? Zero.
What are the odds that the decision to respond by hitting some “fat prestigious targets” awaits the final printing in triplicate of the forensic investigation report, complete with the appropriate stamps and registration number? Zero.
Russia is biding its time waiting for something else. What???!!! Hoping that “nashi partniori” would see the error of their ways, repent, and say, “OK, we don’t want to have a hot war with Russia. Let’s talk friendly talk.” ?
“Russia is biding its time waiting for something else. What???!!! ”
The Anglo-Zionists already committed worse crimes than the sinking of an aged ship.. the killing and maiming of thousands of Russian troops, wanton flooding of arms and C&C/intelligence to their enemies, brainwashing and activating their blood kin as proxies, total economic war, total cultural war and the hounding innocent Russians worldwide, etc…
All are currently expecting a significant escalation of hostilities, perhaps after a nuclear FF. The window was signaled to be between Macron’s selection and Victory day of May 9..
There is also a delicate diplomatic and legal choreography between Russia and Zone B allies such as India, ASEAN, L America. Many of them are lukewarm with their own 5th columns and internal contradictions. They need to be kept onboard through slow gradual kinetic work. They will be essential for the new UN, financial and economic systems (the new world minus the West).
So Russia cannot strike out on every issue at once, otherwise the narrative will be used against it.
So all things considered, a package of measures and responses will be rolled out at the right time, accounting for every crime.
God, give me patience, but please hurry!
+1 More important to win the war, than every battle.
I’m sure there is a very good reason for the way this is handled, say they want to eliminate any possiblity of internal sabotage … it might take some time to gather that kind of intelligence. If leads are found, they probably want to dig as deep into it as possible … which might take even longer … and in the end they probably won’t tell anybody about it publicly.
The US and NATO remind me of those gangs who roam the streets of New York and other cities threatening and intimidating whoever they come in contact with. Their attitude was exemplified in Nikki Haley’s comment at the UN:
Washington: ‘At times the United States will cooperate with Russia. If necessary the United States may even slap Russia. But Russia can never be a friend of the United States,’ stated Nikki Haley the US Ambassador to the United Nations explaining the position about Russia.
It’s about time the US and Europe received some “wall-to-wall” counseling, as we used to say in the military.
Book um Danno.
Fake woman fake name bookkeeper for Indian parents’ motel
Yet another US airhead with motormouth
“As a direct consequence of hitting the Moskva, NATO managed to reopen an air corridor for the transfer of aircraft to the airfields of Chernivtsi, Transcarpathian and Ivano-Frankivsk regions.”
Air corridor from the Black Sea to western Ukraine?
Westen Ukraine has borders with Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania
I don’t get it.
One should add “an unobserved/undetected air corridor”.
If it is a mine etc…. as Pepe suggests and the damage evidence is under the keel area then the ship may have to be raised.
That would be symbolic thing too.
If something has been added to the ship’s fuel either at port or aboard – some solid dangerous compound – when it was fed into the turbine engine that may have caused the fire and explosion.
This is something else to consider.
Plastic explosive chunks I had in mind. Or gel that causes a fire. May be multiple things added to the fuel.
And its taken a few days / weeks for the fuel pump to suck it into the engine. Fire first then explosion.
If the fuel tank level was known at time of sinking as being low that may be a clue.
Except for the location of damage was the boiler machinery space and not the main engines space.
How about a Directed Energy Weapon (DEW)?
Unfortunately, for very odd perhaps even freemasonry reasons, there seems to be a general predisposition and a strong belief that everything will be back to normal if Iran, China or Russia continue on with negotiations and meetings vis-à-vis their Western partners. This is very evident by the easy going attitude of Russia regarding the extremely dangerous global zionist network war using NATO aimed at bringing down the government and final disintegration of Russia into several smaller states in which zio-run corporations will simply take all the natural resources, while keeping the ethnic population busy in a woke-style sex-vodka and rocknroll activities. In Iran’s case, they still believe an agreement over the JCPOA, could take everything back to normal. Iranian official are already counting how much oil and gas they will be exporting and how much US dollar they will get when all or some of the sanctions are lifted. Whereas, a small child understands that the whole thing in the US is controlled by the AIPAC, then as long as Iran doesn’t recognize Israel there will be no ease of sanctions as it has been the case since the first day of the Islamic Revolution in 1979. Again for some strange reasons the Iranians seem not to understand that simple fact following decades long Western imposed wars and economic sanctions against their country. As for China, the only thing that could temporary halt the Chinese from doing US dollar based business with all the countries of the world is an actual third world war involving nukes. Even then the Chinese – like Hong Kong – will keep doing business in the US dollar. For all the talks about the birth of a multipolar world order, one wonders if the Zone B countries shouldn’t review their strategies/cooperation, then accordingly start acting more seriously in dealing with the global zionist enemy.
I’m pretty sure Zone B countries all have their plan B in case the multipolar world fails to become a large and stable block. However, to state that Iran, who has been under attack from the US/Israel for 40+ years, and Russia are not being serious in this whole process is either extremely naive or malicious.
I would like to be as optimistic as you, but unfortunately I am not. I live in Iran and have a fairly good idea about what’s happening here. A big chunk of the bureaucratic system is firmly attached with the US dollar and for them the world revolves around it. They just cannot think of any other systems but selling oil/gas in US dollar. They love the gangster American liberal way of doing business. It would have been nice to see a coordinated action by the gov. to do its own transactions in Ruble/Yuan/Rial right after Russia announced selling its gas in Ruble. Also, due to a lack coordination amongst the Zone B, we saw how the US managed to topple Emran Khan in Pakistan. The trio still don’t have any proper planning about Afghanistan when it’s the best time to act while the US military is no longer present. The West is always quick to act when it sees an opportunity as in Pakistan. May be the lack of coordination by the Zone B is due to the fact that China, Russia and Iran have vastly different cultures which makes communication and finding a common ground a difficult task. Whereas the Europeans and the US have a more or less homogeneous/uniform understanding of different issues.The Zone B must overcome this obstacle and improve its team work.
You know it’s still possible that NATO didn’t do it ?
Like for example sabotage?
1. Ukrainians taking credit for something they didn’t actually do.
2. Russian’s saving face
and get this (I know this is going to be a totally crazy idea):
3. The wimpy, cowardly (shtting in their pants), lying, fake American’s actually telling the truth (lmao) ?
So get ready: something lethally “asymmetrical” may be about to pop up.
Well, if Russia concludes that Nato played a direct part in the Moskva’s sinking, then I’m sure that something definitely will pop up. Something of similar operational value but done quietly, no fuss.
The picquet duty, watching air/sea space off the Odessa coast that the Moskva was doing was important, I believe, as part of force protection especially when the deputy commander of RF Central Military District mention Odessa as being part of Russia’s plan. I don’t know but perhaps RF has set up a radar picquet — with appropriate AD, of course — on Snake Island to make up for the loss.
Today is the feast of St George,* patron saint of VICTORY, protector of Russia. How about “popping” the surprise today? Or would that be too jewish, celebrating religious holidays with some blood shedding…
Normally on April 23, but this year, due to Easter falling on the 24, moved to the 25 of April.
The “surprises” keep popping up on the other side with more brazen attack on the territory of Russia itself, like Bryansk on fire:
By the way, the Azovstal plant in Mariupol will not be restored. Pushilin says that the Azovstal plant polluted Mariupol, preventing it from becoming a resort town. The 36th Marine Brigade of Ukraine and the radical nationalist group “Azov” are located on the territory of the plant, mostly underground, and are surrounded by the forces of the Russian Federation and the DPR.
If the Azostal plant is not going to be restored, it can be destroyed completely, which also means that those who hide in the tunnels should surrender. There’s still a chance. Otherwise, they’d just get destroyed together with the plant itself.
Frankly I have been sceptical of reports of SAS units in Western Ukraine as opposed to other units since SAS is more discreet and deep. I suspect their presence inside Moldova moving into Odessa and that they or SBS were able to deliver a destructive blow against Moskva.
With all due respect:
Spec ops are fine, for what they are invented for.
In ukraine, right now, they have neither the back up firepower(arty), neither air-cover, neither enough info of who is who(language). No qrf. No mobility. Even a meter distance from their persons, they are out of the loop…
…they are as vulnerable, as the next conscript – to any of the walking dead. They are of no value in a war, where there are no force multipliers left open to them. Night-vision mabbe, till the batteries run dry…but even with their smallarms – they are not compatible ammo wise.
Unless they wear high heels with miniskirts – they are not Special anymore…🙄
NO way they are in harms way ANYWHERE in ukland.
Not much doubt in my mind that the Moskva hit was a sabotage of some kind, assisted by NATO?
What about the deaths of these research scientists?
MO is very British/Israeli.
Look how many Iranian scientists were dropping like flies some time back.
I think everything is very peculiar about this war.
Seems like a lot of traitors on board not just the ship, but elsewhere.
That is the only explanation for the silence from the MOD.
Daily Mail is a British rag for one thing.
Research Institutes of the Ministry of Defence of Russia are not available to be seen by anyone, and if it was a military research institute, it would not ever be named as such, and would never be where it can be accessed by anyone to be photographed. Most old-looking office-like buildings in Russia looks alike. They could be anything, even a polyclinic, or a school.
The wording “Respected local journalist Alexander Gamburg” also tells something. Gamburg is a funny surname…more like Jewish…
“However, he said he could not give further details because of Russian censorship and ‘not to compromise people important and dear to me’.” is utter BS! It only shows what a rag this Daily Mails is!
Each side of this conflict is displaying its character for the world to see. Russia is methodical, confident and has a clear plan it is operating to. The other side is hysterical, obsessed with making the war look like a movie, and desperate to keep its populations in the dark like mushrooms about the war and the REAL world, and the pain to come. Let it play out. Russia is not perfect, but it is well prepared and steadfast in its knowledge of itself and the enemy.
and then there’s this dancing video of Bush and Putin in happier times!?
“In parallel, after the destruction of the Moskva, the Black Sea Fleet, according to the source, “no longer seems to have a ship equipped with a long-range anti-aircraft missile system”. Of course a three-band radar Sky-M system remains in play in Crimea, capable of tracking all air targets at a range of up to 600 km. One wonders whether this is enough for all Russian purposes.”
I’d be surprised if the Russian didn’t took that scenario into account. If they systematically plan fo almost everywhing, they couldn’t have missed the loss of a major vessel and its impact on the overall operation.
Here are 5 of the most successful US rebranding’s in recent history:
IF there was (live) targetting provided by a NATO aerial asset, that asset would have been shot down. So that story is as false as it gets.
That said, you do NOT need (live) targeting for missiles to get near their targets when the targets have reasonably-known locations. So -some- targeting info being relayed to the Ukrainians is and they launching missiles to those coordinates IS likely.
In any case, there is little reason to doubt they launched missiles in the hopes of hitting -something- and it is likely that “something” would have been the Moskva, being the biggest thing around to both radar and visually.
Now, there was some rumour Starlink had a say here. This is pure conjecture, but the Ukrainians were known to have problems with guidance while their missiles themselves worked fine. What if they simply bolted a Starlink terminal on INSTEAD of a seeker and used a manual sattelite-linked guidance using a video feed for “manual” guidance ?
Normal commercial sat-com does not have the bandwidth and is also restricted for high-speed vehicles. You can get aviation sat-com but those have low bandwidth and bad reliability at low heights.
But I am not sure – AFAIK Starlink is not terminal-speed-limited and certainly has the latency as well as throughput to support a video-based command guidance even at sea level.
I can see the Ukrainians being able to hit even a moving ship and, crucially, being able to bypass any guidance system issues they would have had if they could hack it up that way or similar. Then they would need only the general location of the Russian grouping which NATO would have provided.
Yet again ..Muchas gracias el Maestro Pepe Escobar..
You, Andre, Nightvision, Amarynth, that Chilean poltergeist and countless others keep many of us informed and even humoured!!
a) as per previously posted – accidental *fires* etc., on larger, older ships is common. Just look
at that most modern up-to-date Norwegian corvette 2 years scuttling itself.
Baltic Sea ferry accidents/fires (or sabotage!!!) over the past 30 years with supposedly Scandinavian expertise and management. Not always the same for the actual *foreign* crew.
Indonesia submarine accident last year etc.,
Waste of time dealing with the numerous US Navy accidents/mishaps.
b) However, the Chinese Navy/Intelligence services have for the past 3-4 years (!!!) had numerous unmanned long distance drones patrolling/hanging out/waiting in the China sea – several fished up by Indonesian fisherman. 2019-20!! Been talk of a mother ship too…
Effectively, some of us believe, keeping a close track/monitoring on US nuke subs.
Think of those beautiful *pilot fish* which always accompany larger sharks!!
Therefore, is it not possible that back in January 2022 or earlier NATO/Soros and those f…wits had had their own underwater drone(s) just waiting/lurking on the Ukraine coastal sea bottom (less than 100 meters depth in this case)
After repeated passing overs by the unfortunate Moskva, popped up and fixed itself/latched onto the sensitive part of the hull of this vessel..Perhaps even drilling/gas-torching/lasering a small hole and then pumping in highly inflammable material – or something.
A very smart Mine!!! Sanitised ie., with misleading manufacturing stamps, components etc.,
Dunno – tis Monday and am not stoned!! Yet…
BUT NATO weirdos are becoming increasingly desperate and have to maintain some sort of *viable* retaliation, for public consumption for their brainwashed plebs, vis-a-vis those pesky Russians and Chinese!!!
All those fat-juicy aircraft carriers etc., now deployed to the eastern Mediterranean have to show us non-citizens that those billions of *tax euros/dollars* have been well spent!!!.
Yup!! I guess that narrow Persian gulf was just TOOO uncomfortable..
The USA has satellite-based Directed Energy Weapons, laser-like sci-fi weapons. They have likely been used to start forest fires in California, Siberia, Turkey, and many others, and to cause explosions at chemical plants. In the California forest fires, some cars had their engine blocks melted. Forest fires are not hot enough for that. Photos can be found on the internet. Houses have been burnt to the ground, while nearby trees are not touched. Suggestion: a DEW weapon caused a munitions explosion on the Moskva. And what about the convenient fires at industrial plants in Russia???
Thanks DEW –
I would second your suggestion which might appear slightly over-the-top for some contributors here.
Chinese blogs have some enlightening and concrete comments in that regard..industrial fires!!
Now, just refer sceptics to those 25 plus BIO-LABS in Ukraine and another 150 plus on Russian/ex-Soviet/Chinese borders ..
are they all *over-the-top* now OR just *under-the-table* with a *stab-in-the-back*..
And I will third your suggestion, for there is a lot of very valid information on the California fires that point to directed energy weapons. Those as well as HAARP are of real concern for the world IMO.
re: “So what do we really have here? Fantasy or reality?”
The same question could be asked of virtually all “news” in the western media, especially as it pertains to Ukraine.
From the latest New York Times headline story (with my comments):
U.S. Says It Wants To See Russian Military Weakened
Lloyd J. Austin III, the U.S. secretary of defense, said that there would be a more detailed discussion about what Ukraine would need to prevail against Russia at a meeting in Germany on Tuesday. “We want to see Russia weakened to the degree it cannot do the kind things that it has done in invading Ukraine,” he said. (1)
In the two months since the start of the war, the Biden administration has steadily increased military assistance while at the same time imposing wider sanctions aimed at crippling the Russian economy. (2) The assertion by the top U.S. defense officials that America wants to degrade the Russian war machine reflected an increasingly emboldened approach from the Biden administration. (3)
Mr. Austin, who made his comments during a brief news conference on the Polish-Ukrainian border, was joined by Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken, who said that Russia had failed in its goal of destroying the Ukrainian state. (4) U.S. diplomats would soon be returning to Ukraine, he said, and he expected the embassy in Kyiv to reopen in a few weeks. (5)
“Russia is failing,” he said. “Ukraine is succeeding.” (6)
(1) If the overt attempt by the U.S. to “weaken” the Russian military isn’t a declaration of war, then I don’t know what is. Russia may soon answer. God help us all when it does.
(2) The sanctions clearly have not “crippled” the Russian economy; indeed, they have only succeeded in crippling the economies of western Europe and the U.S. Biden & Co. have trotted out the “Putin price hike” claptrap, but no one is buying it.
(3) “…an increasingly emboldened approach…” – Translation: An increasingly desperate approach.
(4) “Russia had failed in its goal of destroying the Ukrainian state” – Anyone following the conflict from independent sources knows that Russia had no intention of “destroying the Ukrainian state”, since they see Ukrainians as being much like themselves and they would like to be able to have peaceful relations. As Col. Douglas Macgregor has pointed out in numerous interviews, the Russians have made it clear that they have three goals: The de-Nazification of Ukraine, the protection of the Russian population in the Donbas region, and preventing Ukraine from becoming a NATO member. It seems to me they are succeeding in the first two and may very well be forced into turning western Ukraine into a landlocked rump state to prevent it from presenting an existential threat.
(5) “…a few weeks…” – Translation: Never.
The evil that Russia fights against:
Zaur, a soldier from Dagestan, emotionally tells (https://t.me/riafan_everywhere/8908) about the storming of a building in Mariupol, which was held by “Azov”.
According to him, the squad could not get close to the place for a long time because of snipers. The crucial moment for the breakthrough was the shock of what the soldiers saw – in front of their eyes Ukrainian snipers shot a woman with a child who tried to escape by running across the yard.
“They shot the mother in the back, she fell. We shouted to the child “Run!”. But he did not know what to do, he wanted to run away and help his mother. And the sniper shot him in the head. That bastard shot a kid in the head! At that moment, we all forgot what death is, we did not think about our lives, we breached there. Many soldiers died.”
“It was an inflection point, to understand that I am doing everything right. That I am here for these people. They cry, hug us, thank us,” Zaur says.
Presumably there is some hard data or info to back this up?
“On Moskva’s location: it was positioned near one of 3 drilling rigs, used for monitoring a whole sector of the Black Sea with hydrophones”
Define ‘near’, The Moskva was about 35nm SW of where the platforms where.
Platforms may be used for monitoring the area, but with hydrophones, oh boy that made me laugh out loud. Drilling platforms are probably the worst location for anyone SOSUS type equipment, too much noise.
Another point I’d like to quibble about, since I’m here… Constructive criticism is welcome.
“even in a 15 kilometer range, 45 seconds to detect track and develop a firing solution for whatever ‘on duty’ AD complex. More than enough reaction time.”
Many ifs. If, the crew were well trained, frequently drilled, forewarned of a potential threat, if the response for fire solutions was done in 45 seconds is very tight according to the textbook. Real-time, out of the blue, combat situations aren’t comparable to the textbook, drills scenarios.
If the conditions were optimally advantageous on that late afternoon, there is no interference from the sea surface, atmosphere, and so on. If the height of the missiles was 5 metres. The target was a ship from a different era with outdated systems.
The distance at which the radar can see the target directly depends on their height above the ground. The lower the target flies, the later it will rise above the radio horizon line and the less time it will take to shoot it down.
Sure, hypothetically it could shot down, but reading between the lines, but this means that the last resort defence were the CIWS, AK-630, whose upgrades didn’t materialise. As such, their effectiveness were questionable due to their placement, interoperability with the AD radar. thus affecting the accuracy.
Another worrying factor is what was the role of the US Navy P-8 that was flying in the region at the time?
Lastly, according to Soviet naval information, the Moskva would have been survivable if one of the engineering spaces had been flooded. This is what apparently happened, judging by the role and location of the confirmed fatalities and also the roles of several of the missing.
Me feeling honored! ;-)
Thx for the Fish…
The Ukrops also unleashed tens of WWII style mines into the Black Sea. It could have been one of those – perhaps explicitly brought into contact by enemy forces. If released to target a known weak point of the ship, the damage could be disproportionate.
This short video shows one being tranported in a Ukrop van.
I think if you carefully watch Putin in this video, “Revealing Ukraine”. You will get a glimpse at what he intended or at least did intend for the end game with Ukraine. Especially the last few minutes is a giant clue:
“No need for anything rash. Time is running out for the Empire of Lies. Russia and China need to merely hold out and continuing as they are. The West is falling further and further into decline”.
100% agree. Both China and Russia take a historical view of events. US has always required “immediate gratification”, both large and small scale.
The Empire of Lies clearly has saboteurs. A couple dozen food processing plants have been destroyed in the last few months in the U.S., as if they’re trying to create a famine on purpose.
There has been a plethora of discussion and speculation around the imagery we have all seen about the sinking of the capital ship, Moskva
We are fixated around the physical damage and other supporting evidence but one aspect that I have not read so far is that of the crew itself, other than most of them were able to abandon the ship unharmed.
Any criminal investigator worth his or her salt would conduct a thorough interview of the ship’s sailors, beginning with the:
1. Captain – where was he when the disaster happened and what action did he take?
2. Senior officers – who was standing watch on the bridge, CIC (Combat Information Center), engineering,
weapons systems, medical department, etc.?
3. Some of the crew were below deck, others were topside. What did they see and hear?
4. What damage control procedures did the crew follow based upon their training, such as: close watertight doors, initiate fire containment systems, evacuate the injured, etc.?
5. What does the ship’s log show?
6. How long before naval and air rescue services arrived to aid in fighting the fire?
As any good criminal investigator worth his or her salt knows, physical evidence AND eyewitness accounts are critical to solving a crime and this attack on the Moskva was a crime despite the fact that Russia is fighting a war against the U.S\./NATO/EU enemy.
Let us not allow this to be an unsolved case like the murder of JFK, 9/11, Skirpal incident, Andrei Karlov assassination, etc.
I hope our esteemed journalist Mr. Escobar (and others) continues to probe this attack on Russia and uncover what really happened.
Syria, something east of Euphrat
I noticed there are now TWO US garrisons inside the Al-Tanf enclave now and that the US has now established THREE new garrisons along the eastern side of the Euphrates Rives in Syria since the new administration came to power. If I recall Trump had ordered a stand down on US troops in Syria but was deceived by the JCS who completely ignored him
The NSM missile could have avoided detection due to it’s stealth characteristics:
NSM has electronic emissions (on board radar) and that is how is detected……Stealth or no Stealth
” One thing is certain. If the Russian Ministry of Defense finds out that NATO did it, they will let loose all the dogs from Hell on NATO, as in “asymmetrical, lethal and fast” ”
Unless a capital ship from a NATO nation is sunk I will consider any other response as insufficient.
Russia will denounce this act as provocation and ask nato to be more careful.
“asymmetrical” + :fat prestigious targets” <- Iran recently noted that they're still waiting to retaliate for the death of Soleimani.
If NATO is found to be directly involved (well, we pretty much no it's the case, but it's about it ramping activities up such that it's undeniable) then figure Russia will see others joining its cause. Wildcards: Egypt and India.
A flagship sunk by dirty deeds calls for a flagship in retaliation. However, the question is whether that would fit Russia’s strategic objectives or not. Russia did not avenge the crew of the SU-24 shot down by Turkey, nor the crew of the aircraft indirectly caused to be shot down by Israel. But in both cases they leveraged the offense to obtain concessions from the enemy state.
I don’t see the USA being willing to make any deals, however. They instigated this war in Ukraine as a desperate attempt to maintain their position as king of the hill, by weakening Russia. Russia now being at war in Ukraine does not need to branch out into a second front. But since the USA practically is the one they are fighting in Ukraine, then maybe it could make sense in some way.
If the USA was involved, which it clearly was, then it deserves to lose its own flagship. But, I cannot see Putin doing that just now. They need to finish their phase 2 in Ukraine. This will give about 60 to 90 days to plan whatever response they will make.
An American LNG tanker would be a far better target. Way out there in the middle of the Atlantic, who knows what happened to it? It they know the travel routes, they could easily set up some underwater mines, if they didn’t want to sink it outright with a torpedo.
There has to be a response. People are demanding it
any connection to be made with Erdogan blocking Russian flights to Syria?
Legit targets would then be, US base Al-Tanf Syria, or NATO missile base Poland, Romania or a NATO ship in the Mediterranean.
Has everyone forgotten the Kursk – brand new Russian $3 billion boomer sunk in the Barents in 2000?
Putin called Clinton, a genius relative to Bush/Obambam/Biden.
Putin has been through this before – we nearly went to DEFCON 1, WWIII, back then.
Back then it was a gung-ho sub jock who thought he had a free rein.
Later the US sub collision with the Japan Ehime Maru – where a US Senator’s son was given the wheel (apparently a standard MIC party sticker) .
Both cases resulted in US and other casualties.
The Kursk case was solved by U$ billions to a Dutch recovery firm.
The Kursk was testing the new Skval fast torpedo.
So was there another reason to hit Moskva – some new weapon?
Was it even sanctioned?
Is that why Blinken et al. are in Kiev?
President Putin’s been there, done that….
I agree that there’s no way that there was a direct hit from anti-ship missile from the pictures online. You’d know it. Doesn’t mean they weren’t used; the debris from a successful CWIS engagement could have struck Moskva with sufficient kinetic energy almost as good as a hit in terms of a disabled ship. Bullet vs shot shell. As for an aircraft mounted DEW attack (multi-tens of kilowatt laser for example), I can’t imagine a sustained lasing not being detected by sensors – it takes time to burn through thick casing even at that level. But a high power laser could definitely cause fires at the most inopportune time and place. I’m particularly interested in why Moskva was listing (also seen in the photos). Was it all from fire suppression or was there a hull breach below the waterline? A guided mine or drone is definitely a possibility. And the easiest to get away with, I think.
Between crew interviews, ship data and logs, etc I suspect Russia knows exactly what happened. But in openly acknowledging that NATO sunk a flagship (if NATO did it), it means openly acknowledging WW3 with the US. No chance of deescalation after that. So as an asymmetrical response….
You’re talking about “nobody can replace Putin” and i was thinking this week.
1-Putin is the best from our days. There is no doubt.
2-Stalin could destroy Ukraine easy and faster than Putin. But we live in different times. Putin is too nice, i don’t know why people think he is a monster.
3-I’m watching a woman called Zakharova. She is good. Maybe has a future in Russia government. Could be president.
It would seem that a torpedo is an obvious possibility. Some of the European subs have light weight torpedoes that might do limited damage
If the simplest solution is the correct one, perhaps she ran afoul of a Ukro-Nazi mine, it would explain the hull breach. Two of the many that broke loose of their Black Sea moorings have turned up in the Bosporus and delt with over the weekend. She went out with her boots on, a warship under fire, in wartime, with her dignity intact, she rests below the fathoms in good in company, not stricken from the the fleet, awaiting the Salvors torch…
Some imagery is available here. She appears to lay on her Port side:
She looks to be at a reachable depth, perhaps to be fully examined at a later date…
Z for Victory!
The US and NATO are complict in the war in Ukraine, from the CIA Maiden Coup to arms shipments, economic warfare, ongoing delivery of intel for targeting, and troops on the ground (“volunteers” including high-ranking US and NATO officers).
Acordingly the RF is well within its rights to take the war directly to the US and NATO, and they are with commendable restraint, avoiding direct military action. For Russia this is a diplomatic war, they have even refrained from economic warfare that would EU to its knees within a week.
But as time goes on and the west continues to escalate, the time will come when a red line is crossed and military action is used. In the meantime it appears that Russia is taking the high road and letting the west cut its own throat. Hopefull that will be enough.
Could it have been a DEW ?
The Moskva had about 500 sailors that lived. There are radar techs, hull technicians, bosan mates, various watch standers, forward lookouts, etc. They saw and know what happened to their ship.
Lots of things can and do go wrong on large old ships loaded with live ammunition. Just look at the number of rather severe accidents that happened to USN vessels. We will have to wait until the cause of damage and later sinking is fully investigated.
lots of things can go wrong but the timing is very suspicious.
All the recent mishaps are not result of pure accidents.
My first instinct was that is was either the NSM missile mentioned in the article, or perhaps some one-off skunkworks (or the like) job designed as a sort of wonder weapon…
If it was an NSM or other missile it would have to have been a top attack which then started a fire internally, otherwise there would be a gaping hole in the sides of the hull where cruise missiles usually strike.
Now that I have had time to think about it, it makes sense that it could have been a UUV. The Montreaux Convention doesn’t limit UUV’s in the Black Sea…
If there was an underwater drone with a laser as its main weapon, it could sneak up under the Moskva and heat up a spot on the bottom of the metal hull, causing internal fires. If the attacker knew what spot to heat up, it would have a high chance of success (if such a vulnerability indeed does/did exist).
If it was a UUV it also makes sense the Moskva’s radars didn’t see it.
If the UUV had a ultra-quiet buoyancy-glider type design, it could conceivably sneak up on a target like Moskva given its relatively near-shore location and rather small patrol area. It was attacked very close to a NATO shore (Romania).
Just speculation of course, hopefully it gives someone else with more technical knowledge than me an idea?
“…even the Moskva’s old frigate radar would have seen those missiles in distances of tens of kilometers, somewhere between 15-20 for sure. NSM, as any NATO anti-shipping missile, are subsonic, with their velocity roughly 300 meters per second. That leaves, even in a 15 kilometer range, 45 seconds to detect track and develop a firing solution for whatever ‘on duty’ AD complex. More than enough reaction time.” So if Marty is right, if it was a missile or missiles, they would be shot down. So it wasn’t missiles. So Pepe’s source needs a vacation.
“So get ready: something lethally “asymmetrical” may be about to pop up.”
For this lost ship, I don’t think so. They are not at war with the U.S. In that eventuality or case, it would be just “revenge.” They want to be alone with Ukraine too.
“They are not at war with the U.S”
What? Are you serious? Russia, and China, are certainly at war with the JUSA, it just has not been publicly declared.
If they come to the conclusion that it was that, then they’d say it’s a “provocation”, right? We know Putin on provocations from several declarations; he doesn’t “fall” for them. They would not declare war on the U.S. They do not want to declare war on the U.S. They would say it to themselves. “Russia, and China, are certainly at war with the USA”. No, they are not. That’s a figure of speech…not to be abused.
Look, I’m the only one saying it, but I peered at those grainy pictures with the line of dark circles on the side, and they are too CIRCULAR to be smoke smudges..
Did someone pepper the side of the moskva with a full salvo of seven or eight very pointy missiles?
Hey Pepe, you should read analysis published on The Saker website. I believe it was Nighthawk who posted a detailed analysis of the damage inflicted on the Moskva as she was listing right before sinking beneath the waves. The puncture marks on the vessel in no way matches other naval craft known to have been struck by missiles or torpedoes. Nighthawk concludes The Moska seems to have been sabotaged internally.
Any thoughts on a P-8 or a P-3 dropping a guided bomb on the Moskva from 30,000 feet? Although they are not bombers per se, they do launch sonobuoys and and can drop depth charges. Given the value of the Moskva as a radar picket, why would not the CIA/US military bomb the Moskva? What would it take to cause such damage to the ammunition lockers and start a huge fire with all the stored propellant?
My two cents:
Any official investigation findings will be embargoed until the SMO is fully completed. So we need to sit tight for awhile…
Russia must respond adequately, that is all that needs to be said.
This case of the Russian ship makes me ask the following question: does a country like Russia, it is said super well equipped, only have one ship like that? I don’t fit this narrative. How is that possible? So it is surrounded by NATO warships by all that is water and only has — had- this super ship? NO ! I DON’T BUY THIS STORY.
What I can’t grasp is…even in the Ukrainian’s own narrative it was NATO aircraft outside the Ukraine that delivered the strike. No one is reporting on this part of “story” as a major escalation event. A British AWACS was recorded in exact locations on the day, trailing the cruiser in the area. It was therefore highly likely a British AWACS Orion that actively guided and delivered the strike on the Russian cruiser. Does everyone in west not see what this actually means? Again, even within the Ukrainian narrative, they basically admit NATO have already used their military aviation hardware, crewed by NATO personnel, and well outside of Ukraine’s borders, to actively attack a Russian military vessel in the Black Sea on behalf of Ukraine. Meaning NATO itself has already escalated to point of openly attacking the Russian Navy! NATO will likely claim a technicality, that this was “military assistance” – but that is BS, without the active AWACS guidance the strike would never have hit the vessel. NATO took control of the targeting and control of the missiles, and did so well outside the conflict zone. Sheesh, even within the official Ukrainian narrative, how much more does western public need to indicate NATO is at open war with Russia in Ukraine???!!!
“…facts that do not exist, only interpretations”. Nietzsche
Moskva: What about simply internal sabotage by a saboteur or secret agent? After all this Is a war…
Regarding NATO involvement such as the Orion mentioned above.
1. NATO would have to employ electronic warfare to degrade or blind the surveillance & warning systems aboard the Moskva, for Neptune or NSM anti-ship missiles to hit Moskva. Which would not go unnoticed by RF armed forces.
2. Or, like the USS Stark, which ignored the approach of an Iraqi aircraft on an attack profile. The commander of the USS Stark failed to recognize the danger, thus failing to employ countermeasures. The Exocet anti-ship missile reminded them.
3. Another feasible option is that the Moskva’s system are not as effective as claimed. Back in 1991, US Patriot missile batteries failed to detect an incoming SCUD. The trajectory of the SCUD played a part in the failure of the Patriot missile defense system. Such could have happened with Moskva.
Or a combination of 2. & 3.
Regarding 1. This would be an overt provocation of war. I doubt that RF leadership would not inform the world, if such was the case. Case 1. would show Russian radar and countermeaures to be vastly inferior to Western EW capabilities. Given that EW against the Moskva would most certainly be noticed? This reduces the chances of the loss of Moskva being attributed to the employment of anti-ship missiles; it does not eliminate the possibility. Simply making it the less likely reason.
A more embarrassing reason for the loss of Moskva? Russian sailor lit a cigarette where he was not supposed to. Or aging equipment sparking a fire. Every sailor fears a fire. Even in Western navies, fire safety protocols are not always followed or equipment is not always up to standards.
Until RF leadership makes a definitive & truthful statement as to what caused the loss of Moskva? All else is speculation.
The introduction of any NSM PKR might needlessly complicate the story. The R-360 Neptune during development appears to have been tested by North Korea (as Kumsong 3 in 2014, military-today.com). This would explain the relatively evolved state of new electronics and guidance. Keep in mind that this missile would be designed specially with its targets in mind: known Russian ships on those locations.
As for flight envelope and guidance, some NATO assistance can be assumed but only in general terms as they work within very strict guidelines, it’s embedded inside the organization. No “secret” even passive combat involvement and all personal is aware of this. But one can use nearby drones for the same effect, providing tracking and even thermal imaging. It’s indeed likely some interference or direct attack on signal equipment was performed to increase the chances on the Neptunes to come through under normal circumstances.
One or two R-360’s are enough to take a ship out if hit at the right spot (disabling sufficient power, pumps and causing fires). How to calculate the perfect spot might take some input from (foreign) intelligence services.
The analysis on the timing in the article reads correctly: the Moskva made certain weapon transports nearly impossible and was a high priority to take out. Revealing the Neptune capability was a price to pay with all the risks on failure included. The few active missiles were likely saved for any major strategic moment and the launchers spread out over locations. It’s not strange in that sense to see them only now.
I hope that this is not a dumb question but with the Moskva being sunk isn’t that going to make determining the cause almost impossible to ascertain unless it was by a missile attack which does not look likely?
If the cause was due to a fire hopefully the ships logs and sailor’s depositions will shed light on what caused it.
While it would not be surprising I hope that it was not an act of sabotage which will lead to much higher tensions with the west and NATO.